Warrior DM
N3
The morning is for coffee and contemplation.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Posts: 296 Likes: 536
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The morning is for coffee and contemplation.
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Post by Warrior DM on Apr 11, 2017 6:54:09 GMT
Despite everything, I still consider Solas a good friend to the Inquisitor. I could never hate him after everything he did for the Inquisition, and everything he suffered just to stop the Evanuris in the first place.
I will only kill Solas if the alternative is letting many others die.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 11:49:57 GMT
This choice is like the one I made with Anders. Your intentions don't matter in this case. Even if some agree with Anders and he makes good points now and then, I kill him in every PT because he has lots of innocent blood on his hands just like Solas. Even if he values the life here and all he still caused thousands of death, thus he must pay for this
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 13, 2017 12:24:00 GMT
This choice is like the one I made with Anders. Your intentions don't matter in this case. Even if some agree with Anders and he makes good points now and then, I kill him in every PT because he has lots of innocent blood on his hands just like Solas. Even if he values the life here and all he still caused thousands of death, thus he must pay for this I did the same for Anders. I can imagine an ending where a Inq who romanced Solas ends up killing him at the end to save the thousands of lives at stake and then...ends herself. I can accept this. It's a bitter ending but I can accept it. Better than having a nonsensical dialogue and a choice of three types of colour ice-creams.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 13, 2017 14:15:16 GMT
This choice is like the one I made with Anders. Your intentions don't matter in this case. Even if some agree with Anders and he makes good points now and then, I kill him in every PT because he has lots of innocent blood on his hands just like Solas. Even if he values the life here and all he still caused thousands of death, thus he must pay for this I did the same for Anders. I can imagine an ending where a Inq who romanced Solas ends up killing him at the end to save the thousands of lives at stake and then...ends herself. I can accept this. It's a bitter ending but I can accept it. Better than having a nonsensical dialogue and a choice of three types of colour ice-creams. Anders' case not same as Solas', nor even similar. (The only similarity is that they both killed people, but Anders already finished this, Solas just started and wants to continue.) Hawke can't save the thousands of life with the execution of Anders the people who died in the Chantry explosion, already died. This is simple death punishment. Anders voluntarily submits himself to the judgment. (Okay, if Hawke consider him unstable –in rivalry this is more than possible–, then we can call this prevention. But in rivalry, this is a good choice, much more merciful, than force him against the mages.) (Right, the "drama" is similar.) Anders' case much more shows similarity with Loghain's case, only one differ, that Loghain's sin bigger, and he's wrong in every viewpoints. Despite this, to let Loghain alive, a good decision, just as to execute him, because you can't prevent him, just as Anders. But: you (perhaps) can prevent Solas. (I want an option to support him. Would be interesting.)
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Post by Catilina on Apr 13, 2017 14:27:33 GMT
This choice is like the one I made with Anders. Your intentions don't matter in this case. Even if some agree with Anders and he makes good points now and then, I kill him in every PT because he has lots of innocent blood on his hands just like Solas. Even if he values the life here and all he still caused thousands of death, thus he must pay for this If Hawke thinks, he's right: the death punishment only pure revenge for the lives (and a bit –I can say– hypocrisy). Revenge is possible, and vindictiveness is a human trait, but not really necessary. (His blood can't resurrect the dead.) The point is the danger: If Hawke thinks, Anders continue to threaten lives, then can consider the execution really necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 16:21:34 GMT
This choice is like the one I made with Anders. Your intentions don't matter in this case. Even if some agree with Anders and he makes good points now and then, I kill him in every PT because he has lots of innocent blood on his hands just like Solas. Even if he values the life here and all he still caused thousands of death, thus he must pay for this If Hawke thinks, he's right: the death punishment only pure revenge for the lives (and a bit –I can say– hypocrisy). Revenge is possible, and vindictiveness is a human trait, but not really necessary. (His blood can't resurrect the dead.) The point is the danger: If Hawke thinks, Anders continue to threaten lives, then can consider the execution really necessary. Even if Hawke doesn't kill him, I feel like someone eventually will. Or he may just become an abomination or something since he isn't just a person with a spirit inside like Wynne
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Post by empirex on Apr 13, 2017 16:25:28 GMT
I don't care as long as this track remains as Solas' theme:
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Post by Catilina on Apr 13, 2017 16:30:44 GMT
If Hawke thinks, he's right: the death punishment only pure revenge for the lives (and a bit –I can say– hypocrisy). Revenge is possible, and vindictiveness is a human trait, but not really necessary. (His blood can't resurrect the dead.) The point is the danger: If Hawke thinks, Anders continue to threaten lives, then can consider the execution really necessary. Even if Hawke doesn't kill him, I feel like someone eventually will. Or he may just become an abomination or something since he isn't just a person with a spirit inside like Wynne Of course, this is possible. Sometimes he has very bad manners. Crushed Anders have a big chance to become uncontrollable abomination, the constant rivalry with Justice and himself can cause that he lose himself. If he'll not prevent this with suicide. I think, supported Anders have a chance to keep the balance between Justice and himself.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 13, 2017 23:25:04 GMT
I did the same for Anders. I can imagine an ending where a Inq who romanced Solas ends up killing him at the end to save the thousands of lives at stake and then...ends herself. I can accept this. It's a bitter ending but I can accept it. Better than having a nonsensical dialogue and a choice of three types of colour ice-creams. Anders' case not same as Solas', nor even similar. (The only similarity is that they both killed people, but Anders already finished this, Solas just started and wants to continue.) Hawke can't save the thousands of life with the execution of Anders the people who died in the Chantry explosion, already died. This is simple death punishment. Anders voluntarily submits himself to the judgment. (Okay, if Hawke consider him unstable –in rivalry this is more than possible–, then we can call this prevention. But in rivalry, this is a good choice, much more merciful, than force him against the mages.) (Right, the "drama" is similar.) Anders' case much more shows similarity with Loghain's case, only one differ, that Loghain's sin bigger, and he's wrong in every viewpoints. Despite this, to let Loghain alive, a good decision, just as to execute him, because you can't prevent him, just as Anders. But: you (perhaps) can prevent Solas. (I want an option to support him. Would be interesting.) I sympathised with Loghain's decision at Ostagar, having tasted Cailen's char first hand, but his actions thereafter was not so justifiable. Him, I would execute immediately when the chance came but Riordan made valid points. I see his made warden as atonement and a revelation to him. Among other things about Anders which I find unforgivable is his deceit; help me gather these items for a project. When asked; oh it's just a project, something needed. And Hawke finds herself an accomplice, fait accompli. In the first PT, I helped him. I find him likeable though pitiable; he did choose to carry the spirit out of his own free will, and dangerous when he went out of control. I would have clapped him under restraints if there's a way or kicked him back to the circle as he was so unstable. Yes I would but not to Kirkwall circle. I wouldn't have kept him if I had such a choice. I would have acted immediately, if such a choice is given, never mind that I find him a fellow with good intentions but with bad judgments. The murder of innocents, clothed in good intentions, is still murder. We can agree to disagree, can we not? Everyone has their way of looking at stuff.
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Post by Kei on Apr 14, 2017 0:33:15 GMT
At least Cory was honest about the fact that he was an evil sorcerer with pretensions of godhood trying to destroy the world. Solas carries himself with this whole self-righteous, judgmental, "why do you make me hurt you?"This is a man (in the loosest sense of the term) who's actively planning on destroying the world, and all he can do is whinge about how much it's going to hurt him personally.When someone wants to make the version of the world they think is the right one regardless of the implications for other people living within that world they are indeed selfish.So, yes, if you look at it through impartial eyes, Solas is worse than Corypheus. He is also a steaming great hypocrite for all the times he has criticised others, including the Evanuris, for their actions and yet intends to do far worse. Interestingly, Corypheus is not "trying" to destroy the world. He simply doesn't care if it burns or not as long as he gets to be a god. Solas, I am convinced, would spare the world the destruction his plan would wreak if he could. He simply sees no other way. Solas is selfish and a hypocrite. But to his mind, he is trying to correct a mistake he made. Corypheus tried to destroy the world at the end game just to destroy the Inquisition,he didn't cared to become a god anymore during the ending.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 1:07:40 GMT
Anders' case not same as Solas', nor even similar. (The only similarity is that they both killed people, but Anders already finished this, Solas just started and wants to continue.) Hawke can't save the thousands of life with the execution of Anders the people who died in the Chantry explosion, already died. This is simple death punishment. Anders voluntarily submits himself to the judgment. (Okay, if Hawke consider him unstable –in rivalry this is more than possible–, then we can call this prevention. But in rivalry, this is a good choice, much more merciful, than force him against the mages.) (Right, the "drama" is similar.) Anders' case much more shows similarity with Loghain's case, only one differ, that Loghain's sin bigger, and he's wrong in every viewpoints. Despite this, to let Loghain alive, a good decision, just as to execute him, because you can't prevent him, just as Anders. But: you (perhaps) can prevent Solas. (I want an option to support him. Would be interesting.) I sympathised with Loghain's decision at Ostagar, having tasted Cailen's char first hand, but his actions thereafter was not so justifiable. Him, I would execute immediately when the chance came but Riordan made valid points. I see his made warden as atonement and a revelation to him. Among other things about Anders which I find unforgivable is his deceit; help me gather these items for a project. When asked; oh it's just a project, something needed. And Hawke finds herself an accomplice, fait accompli. In the first PT, I helped him. I find him likeable though pitiable; he did choose to carry the spirit out of his own free will, and dangerous when he went out of control. I would have clapped him under restraints if there's a way or kicked him back to the circle as he was so unstable. Yes I would but not to Kirkwall circle. I wouldn't have kept him if I had such a choice. I would have acted immediately, if such a choice is given, never mind that I find him a fellow with good intentions but with bad judgments. The murder of innocents, clothed in good intentions, is still murder. We can agree to disagree, can we not? Everyone has their way of looking at stuff. I didn't speak about Cailan and Loghain's "tactical retreat". This is probably, somehow acceptable. I spoke about Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized Redcliffe (poisoned Aemon Earl), Ferelden (eliminated Grey Wardens at Blight), Calenhad Circle Tower (Uldred) and sold his own people into slavery (yes, as regent of Ferelden, the Fereldan elves are his own people). This is a big sin in my eyes, much bigger, than Anders did at any time in his life. The fact, that he was a regent, make him even more sinful. (And I don't like to kill Loghain.) Anders was only a man without political power. He could not choose from among too many tools. I never would send Anders back to the Circle (nowhere, not only Kirkwall), rather kill him. Because in the Circle he would be tranquilized. Or, if I think he is a dangerous unstable abomination, why wold I risk the lives in the Circle? We have only two way in case of Anders: kill or trust. There is no third way. How? He's unforgivable sin is the LIE? He deserves death because once lied? It's just injured pride! Not seemly to execute someone because of injured pride. Poor man, he's so bad liar! (And probably he never trusted in anyone before, and didn't want, that Hawke would feel him/herself guilty in the explosion.) Yes, we can agree to disagree.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 14, 2017 2:47:35 GMT
I didn't speak about Cailan and Loghain's "tactical retreat". This is probably, somehow acceptable. I spoke about Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized Redcliffe (poisoned Aemon Earl), Ferelden (eliminated Grey Wardens at Blight), Calenhad Circle Tower (Uldred) and sold his own people into slavery (yes, as regent of Ferelden, the Fereldan elves are his own people). This is a big sin in my eyes, much bigger, than Anders did at any time in his life. The fact, that he was a regent, make him even more sinful. (And I don't like to kill Loghain.) Anders was only a man without political power. He could not choose from among too many tools. I never would send Anders back to the Circle (nowhere, not only Kirkwall), rather kill him. Because in the Circle he would be tranquilized. Or, if I think he is a dangerous unstable abomination, why wold I risk the lives in the Circle? We have only two way in case of Anders: kill or trust. There is no third way. How? He's unforgivable sin is the LIE? He deserves death because once lied? It's just injured pride! Not seemly to execute someone because of injured pride. Poor man, he's so bad liar! (And probably he never trusted in anyone before, and didn't want, that Hawke would feel him/herself guilty in the explosion.)Yes, we can agree to disagree. We can go merry-go-round the topic but the fact remains; I put down my views (I agree with some of the points from another poster and put down my position on Anders), you put down your convictions. The viewpoints do not match, going round and around it isn't going to change our separate POVs. I accept your opinions, your stance but they aren't necessary mine. So, as I said, we can agree to disagree.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 3:00:52 GMT
I didn't speak about Cailan and Loghain's "tactical retreat". This is probably, somehow acceptable. I spoke about Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized Redcliffe (poisoned Aemon Earl), Ferelden (eliminated Grey Wardens at Blight), Calenhad Circle Tower (Uldred) and sold his own people into slavery (yes, as regent of Ferelden, the Fereldan elves are his own people). This is a big sin in my eyes, much bigger, than Anders did at any time in his life. The fact, that he was a regent, make him even more sinful. (And I don't like to kill Loghain.) Anders was only a man without political power. He could not choose from among too many tools. I never would send Anders back to the Circle (nowhere, not only Kirkwall), rather kill him. Because in the Circle he would be tranquilized. Or, if I think he is a dangerous unstable abomination, why wold I risk the lives in the Circle? We have only two way in case of Anders: kill or trust. There is no third way. How? He's unforgivable sin is the LIE? He deserves death because once lied? It's just injured pride! Not seemly to execute someone because of injured pride. Poor man, he's so bad liar! (And probably he never trusted in anyone before, and didn't want, that Hawke would feel him/herself guilty in the explosion.)Yes, we can agree to disagree. We can go merry-go-round the topic but the fact remains; I put down my views (I agree with some of the points from another poster and put down my position on Anders), you put down your convictions. The viewpoints do not match, going round and around it isn't going to change our separate POVs. I accept your opinions, your stance but they aren't necessary mine. So, as I said, we can agree to disagree. Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.)
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 14, 2017 3:30:36 GMT
Interestingly, Corypheus is not "trying" to destroy the world. He simply doesn't care if it burns or not as long as he gets to be a god. Solas, I am convinced, would spare the world the destruction his plan would wreak if he could. He simply sees no other way. Solas is selfish and a hypocrite. But to his mind, he is trying to correct a mistake he made. Corypheus tried to destroy the world at the end game just to destroy the Inquisition,he didn't cared to become a god anymore during the ending. Yeah this is an important nuance to Corypheus. He didn't want to become a god, he was upset that the world had no god. He was only trying to become a god because he didn't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. This is why he calls out to Dumat at the end. His ideal situation is not to become a god himself. He would rather the old gods were real. But since he's given up on that, ascending to godhood is the next best... well it's certainly a solution. I always imagine him as this really earnest, energetic youth pastor who finds a way to visit heaven. Proceeds to discover it's total garbage and has the worst existential crisis on the planet. But he still feels responsible for The Spiritual Condition Of The Youths, so he decides to fake being a god. That way, they won't go through the same thing.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 4:27:21 GMT
Interestingly, Corypheus is not "trying" to destroy the world. He simply doesn't care if it burns or not as long as he gets to be a god. Solas, I am convinced, would spare the world the destruction his plan would wreak if he could. He simply sees no other way. Solas is selfish and a hypocrite. But to his mind, he is trying to correct a mistake he made. Corypheus tried to destroy the world at the end game just to destroy the Inquisition,he didn't cared to become a god anymore during the ending. He wasn't trying to destroy the world, he was doing a last-ditch, all-or nothing attempt to enter the Fade and reach the Blackened city on his own. At that point, he figured he'd either succeed or die. And if he died, he'd take Thedas with him.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 14, 2017 6:53:20 GMT
Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.) I didn't say Loghain is less guilty; I said I sympathised with his decision and gave him the chance of redemption, before his eventual death, when it was offered, based on the arguments offered by Riordan. If I were to weigh his guilt versus Anders, his act was based on a conscious tactical decision to preserve the better part of his fighting men for the conflict against the darkspawn. Anders's decision was emotional, a passionate unleashing of his fury and a FU to the rest of the world. He knew what would happen, he confessed it. Whose act is the worst? To me, Anders. Loghain's crime was to leave his king and his men to die on a battlefield he knew they could not win (after seeing the extent of the darkspawn horde in the battle). There was no attempt of a rescue since by then, Cailan and everyone was deep among the darkspawn. Still, Loghain could have tried, there could be a chance, but he chose not to. His priority then, his concern was Ferelden, not towards a king he had no liking for / no confidence in so he turned and marched out. Cailan and his men knew what they were facing and willingly fought in defense of their kingdom. The act no doubt, did not sit well on Loghain. Cailan was afterall Maric's son, his close friend. He brooded over the betrayal / distracted, I guess, that he allowed a villain free rein to do as he wont. Anders had good intentions and a good heart but bad judgment / unbalanced. There were a few ways he could have highlighted the persecutions the mages, the hardships the poor faced in Kirkwall. Had he ever tried to make any appeals to higher authority? If he had tried and failed in those, had he tried to appeal to the Divine? If he was brave and absolute in his desire to see justice done, he would go to Val Royeax and boldly request an audience. Even if denied, if he made enough noise, Justinia would hear of it or someone sympathetic would hear of it and look into the matter. Even if he died for it, he would have died knowing he had tried. Instead, what did he do? He squirreled himself away, bouncing from one shadow end to another, getting more and more angry, simmering with rage and hate with no solution in sight. He knew he was losing control with Justice in him and still, he did not seek help even though he knew he could kill indiscriminately if he ever lost it. That's a irresponsible, craven and selfish attitude in my view. If he truly thought of the consequences, if he was as selfless as he thought he was, he would face it squarely, sought help in other places and be prepared to face a final end than to kill innocents. If he had spoken of this intention to deal with Justice to Hawke and the others, they would have supported him. He would not be alone to face his fears. He lied to himself, he lied to his friends and the blood of many is on his hands. With the qunari and mages on the rampage in the city, no doubt a number of people would have sought shelter in the chantry, a place of sanctuary. End of line.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 14, 2017 7:30:21 GMT
Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.) I didn't say Loghain is less guilty; I said I sympathised with his decision and gave him the chance of redemption, before his eventual death, when it was offered, based on the arguments offered by Riordan. If I were to weigh his guilt versus Anders, his act was based on a conscious tactical decision to preserve the better part of his fighting men for the conflict against the darkspawn. Anders's decision was emotional, a passionate unleashing of his fury and a FU to the rest of the world. He knew what would happen, he confessed it. Whose act is the worst? To me, Anders. Loghain's crime was to leave his king and his men to die on a battlefield he knew they could not win (after seeing the extent of the darkspawn horde in the battle). There was no attempt of a rescue since by then, Cailan and everyone was deep among the darkspawn. Still, Loghain could have tried, there could be a chance, but he chose not to. His priority then, his concern was Ferelden, not towards a king he had no liking for / no confidence in so he turned and marched out. Cailan and his men knew what they were facing and willingly fought in defense of their kingdom. The act no doubt, did not sit well on Loghain. Cailan was afterall Maric's son, his close friend. He brooded over the betrayal / distracted, I guess, that he allowed a villain free rein to do as he wont. Anders had good intentions and a good heart but bad judgment / unbalanced. There were a few ways he could have highlighted the persecutions the mages, the hardships the poor faced in Kirkwall. Had he ever tried to make any appeals to higher authority? If he had tried and failed in those, had he tried to appeal to the Divine? If he was brave and absolute in his desire to see justice done, he would go to Val Royeax and boldly request an audience. Even if denied, if he made enough noise, Justinia would hear of it or someone sympathetic would hear of it and look into the matter. Even if he died for it, he would have died knowing he had tried. Instead, what did he do? He squirreled himself away, bouncing from one shadow end to another, getting more and more angry, simmering with rage and hate with no solution in sight. He knew he was losing control with Justice in him and still, he did not seek help even though he knew he could kill indiscriminately if he ever lost it. That's a irresponsible, craven and selfish attitude in my view. If he truly thought of the consequences, if he was as selfless as he thought he was, he would face it squarely, sought help in other places and be prepared to face a final end than to kill innocents. If he had spoken of this intention to deal with Justice to Hawke and the others, they would have supported him. He would not be alone to face his fears. He lied to himself, he lied to his friends and the blood of innocents is on his hands. With the qunari and mages on the rampage in the city, no doubt a number of people would have sought shelter in the chantry, a place of sanctuary. End of line. Are you sure that Loghain knew that Ostagar was impossibile to win?He wasn't yet a GW so how did he knew how many darkspawns were hidden in the wilds?
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 14, 2017 7:45:10 GMT
Are you sure that Loghain knew that Ostagar was impossibile to win?He wasn't yet a GW so how did he knew how many darkspawns were hidden in the wilds? Loghain didn't have to be a GW. His men were the reserved force so as a experienced warrior who had fought and repelled Orleis, he wouldn't be sitting at the sidelines paring his fingernails. He would be keeping himself appraised of the battle, a general estimation of enemy numbers and their positions, gauging how he should direct his force for the greatest effect.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 14, 2017 7:59:51 GMT
Are you sure that Loghain knew that Ostagar was impossibile to win?He wasn't yet a GW so how did he knew how many darkspawns were hidden in the wilds? Loghain didn't have to be a GW. His men were the reserved force so as a experienced warrior who had fought and repelled Orleis, he wouldn't be sitting at the sidelines paring his fingernails. He would be keeping himself appraised of the battle, a general estimation of enemy numbers and their positions, gauging how he should direct his force for the greatest effect. Loghain could have been experienced all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he knew nothing about the darkspawns,from all we know they may have come from secret deep roads located in the wilds thus making impossible to understand their numbers for anyone who wasn't a GW.Duncan knew that there were more than 10000 of them and he still believed that was a good idea to have Cailan and the senior GW all in the frontlines.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Apr 14, 2017 8:02:43 GMT
While I'm a sucker for redemption, I'd absolutely hate to be bullied into it as the "obvious" One True Way. Not all choices are created equal (see: Iron Bull), but IMO the Inquisitor's intended role in Solas' redemption can only work if the offer to help is sincere, and you simply can't force that on the players -- especially when Solas' attitudes and intended crimes are so completely beyond the pale. Personal feelings absolutely do matter, or you won't have a satisfying story. The writers can only try to encourage the desire to "save him from himself", and that has to be done with care so it does not become heavy-handed bullying or flat-out railroading.
There's also the problem that a story in which an intended victim has to put personal feelings aside to placate and save the mass-murdering bigot who doesn't even see them as a person, or else their world will go to hell, would send a really horrendous message. That would be damn close to being straight out of an abuser's handbook.
Again: I would in fact like to redeem this guy because the writers did succeed in making the Solas we thought we knew an interesting, well-written if supremely flawed character, and even now some of that impression endures. I wouldn't "gloat" over his death, I don't hate him. I'm just really shocked and sad, and can't see any credible reason to view redemption as viable. They need to give me more to work with, and avoid any impression of force.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 14, 2017 8:17:04 GMT
Loghain didn't have to be a GW. His men were the reserved force so as a experienced warrior who had fought and repelled Orleis, he wouldn't be sitting at the sidelines paring his fingernails. He would be keeping himself appraised of the battle, a general estimation of enemy numbers and their positions, gauging how he should direct his force for the greatest effect. Loghain could have been experienced all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he knew nothing about the darkspawns,from all we know they may have come from secret deep roads located in the wilds thus making impossible to understand their numbers for anyone who wasn't a GW.Duncan knew that there were more than 10000 of them and he still believed that was a good idea to have Cailan and the senior GW all in the frontlines. Your question was how Loghain knew it was impossible to win. He didn't need to go right up to the deep roads / tunnels. All he had to do was survey the battlefield himself or had some of his men act as spotters strung out along the perimeter behind the lines and report to him or someone up in the ruins, signalling the progress of the battle, etc. All reports would be going to him as he was then, the only commanding officer who wasn't engaged in battle and decisions would be up to him. To commit or not to commit when the signal came, to make another approach towards the enemy, his call. End of line.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 12:55:40 GMT
Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.) I didn't say Loghain is less guilty; I said I sympathised with his decision and gave him the chance of redemption, before his eventual death, when it was offered, based on the arguments offered by Riordan. If I were to weigh his guilt versus Anders, his act was based on a conscious tactical decision to preserve the better part of his fighting men for the conflict against the darkspawn. Anders's decision was emotional, a passionate unleashing of his fury and a FU to the rest of the world. He knew what would happen, he confessed it. Whose act is the worst? To me, Anders.
Loghain's crime was to leave his king and his men to die on a battlefield he knew they could not win (after seeing the extent of the darkspawn horde in the battle). There was no attempt of a rescue since by then, Cailan and everyone was deep among the darkspawn. Still, Loghain could have tried, there could be a chance, but he chose not to. His priority then, his concern was Ferelden, not towards a king he had no liking for / no confidence in so he turned and marched out. Cailan and his men knew what they were facing and willingly fought in defense of their kingdom. The act no doubt, did not sit well on Loghain. Cailan was afterall Maric's son, his close friend. He brooded over the betrayal / distracted, I guess, that he allowed a villain free rein to do as he wont.
Anders had good intentions and a good heart but bad judgment / unbalanced. There were a few ways he could have highlighted the persecutions the mages, the hardships the poor faced in Kirkwall. Had he ever tried to make any appeals to higher authority? If he had tried and failed in those, had he tried to appeal to the Divine? If he was brave and absolute in his desire to see justice done, he would go to Val Royeax and boldly request an audience. Even if denied, if he made enough noise, Justinia would hear of it or someone sympathetic would hear of it and look into the matter. Even if he died for it, he would have died knowing he had tried.
Instead, what did he do? He squirreled himself away, bouncing from one shadow end to another, getting more and more angry, simmering with rage and hate with no solution in sight. He knew he was losing control with Justice in him and still, he did not seek help even though he knew he could kill indiscriminately if he ever lost it. That's a irresponsible, craven and selfish attitude in my view. If he truly thought of the consequences, if he was as selfless as he thought he was, he would face it squarely, sought help in other places and be prepared to face a final end than to kill innocents. If he had spoken of this intention to deal with Justice to Hawke and the others, they would have supported him. He would not be alone to face his fears.
He lied to himself, he lied to his friends and the blood of many is on his hands. With the qunari and mages on the rampage in the city, no doubt a number of people would have sought shelter in the chantry, a place of sanctuary.
End of line. No. In Ostagar's case, his decision was morally questionable, not necessarily crime – as you say. I never told that Loghain's crime would the betrayal. I can accept his argument, that this was a "tactical retreat", I wrote. Not this as the reason, why I call Loghain criminal. If you use this argument for defending Loghain, we can say, Loghain innocent as a little lamb, he just worried about his own people. But not. Loghain's biggest crime isn't Ostagar. Again: Ostagar's decision is questionable. Loghain guilty in many crimes even if we ignore the betrayal. But you ignore these crimes, just mentioned his questionable "tactical retreat". Of course, you see Anders more guilty, because, according to you, Loghain just worried for his own people, and wanted to protect them, but Anders' hand is bloody. I never denied that. But if Loghain's decision was questionable, Anders decision was also questionable. He did it not from anger or vengeance. Anders knew well, what he did, and calculated the consequences. Anders was a passionate man, but not in this case. He did it coldly and with premeditation. (This is not an excuse –in fact, probably aggravating circumstance in many people's eyes– that's a fact.) He wanted a revolution, he did it. He didn't want vengeance, he wanted a war. Kirkwall Chantry wasn't a sanctuary, rather a symbol of corruption. He destroyed a symbol. And some people died in the explosion, undeniable – collateral damage, for the cause. Anders is a coward? No. He fights for the cause at any cost. On friendship path, if Hawke supports the Templars, no matter how many friendship Hawke have toward him, he will fight against Hawke for his cause, and this isn't betrayal on his part. If Hawke let him go, he will appear at the Gallows, and ready for the fight. He doesn't want to leave his fellows in the war, what he caused. So: he's not coward, but not risked by personally go into Val Royeaux to the Divine. This nonsense would have been, not courage. They would arrest him, and game over. He's an escaped mage, an escaped Grey Warden, an apostate, with rebel thoughts. Anders isn't an idiot. Yes, this would a nice, peaceful ... thing, but not a solution. And foolish, ineffective. He can be ignored, a big explosion isn't. And he took the possibility of compromise. Elthina was not able to intervene anymore. Always searching for the peaceful solution is a very nice thing, but sometimes it does not work. The war must be started, the Mages was forced to fight for themselves. Back to Loghain: Cailan and his people were sacrificed by Loghain, for the others. I can accept that, if Loghain really just wanted to spare the others, not just wanted Cailan dead. But as I said: let's be bona fide! Loghain wasn't a betrayal, Loghain was a cool-headed strategist, who cares about his people, and it was the best decision he could make. 1. But why he wanted to destroy all remained Grey Wardens? - Because he didn't believe, that the Blight started? But he got alerted by the Grey Wardens, and this alert was clear. He ignored this, and started to pursue and destroy Grey Wardens. This is a crime.
- Or because the remained Grey Wardens are witness to what he did? He did not want witnesses? Then what he did at Ostagar, was betrayal, and he knew, that there is no excuse. (Or just don't expect, that if anyone will know about it, could misinterpret his goodwill...)
2. Sold his people to slavery. You think, this is acceptable? 3. Calenhad Tower almost destroyed because he used Uldred. 4. Redcliffe almost destoryed, because he used Jowan. 5. He let Howe and other nobles misuse, just because they were a useful ally. He didn't lied and didn't used people? Or this is acceptable, because he was a regent? Or because Loghain used other, mostly unknown people, not your Warden, and this wasn't personal, so Loghain isn't insulted your Warden's pride? Let him redeem himself is a good decision. I did it. But he's criminal, we simply can't just ignore these crimes. Anders did a morally questionable decision and sacrificed people, for his own people – just as Loghain in Ostagar, if we accept his own argument. Of course, anyone can consider him guilty and execute him. He also acknowledges that the people deserve justice. This is why he just wait for Hawke's verdict. He's not innocent, he murdered many people for his cause. But he's not worse than Loghain. You see, I accept this, but you ignored Loghain other "questionable" decisions against his people. His crime is the abuse of political power. You can't ignore that. He was in a responsible position, and he undertook this and misused this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 19:46:33 GMT
We can go merry-go-round the topic but the fact remains; I put down my views (I agree with some of the points from another poster and put down my position on Anders), you put down your convictions. The viewpoints do not match, going round and around it isn't going to change our separate POVs. I accept your opinions, your stance but they aren't necessary mine. So, as I said, we can agree to disagree. Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.) The answer is simple really, he is so friggin cool
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Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 19:53:35 GMT
Eh, just I don't understand, what makes Loghain less guilty, than Anders in someone's eyes. But probably I will not. I don't hate Loghain, he's good teammate (at least not tiresome or annoying), I just hoped, I get an answer. True, the answer probably, that Loghain didn't lie to Warden, he just abused his political power, sold his people and etc... so: Loghain didn't injure the Warden's pride, as Anders did. (Sorry, in my eyes a politician will always more guilty and killable, expendable, than anyone else.) The answer is simple really, he is so friggin cool Oh, remarkable argument. Sex appeal matter!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 20:02:40 GMT
The answer is simple really, he is so friggin cool Oh, remarkable argument. Sex appeal matter! Not sex appeal it's more like; he is like my cool uncle who can beat 5 guys at the same time, but still takes me to football games. Maybe also a war veteran
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