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Post by Natashina on Jan 29, 2017 4:39:46 GMT
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Coryphaeus did say the city was already black when he got there. This was something that was discussed when Legacy was released as well. Corypheus gives dialogue that suggests that the City was already Black when the Magisters entered it, meaning that the Chantry may be wrong. I think the exact quote was, "The city was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours." He mentions this in the middle of his rant about Dumat in Legacy.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 4:50:37 GMT
This was something that was discussed when Legacy was released as well. Corypheus gives dialogue that suggests that the City was already Black when the Magisters entered it, meaning that the Chantry may be wrong. I think the exact quote was, "The city was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours." He mentions this in the middle of his rant about Dumat in Legacy. Here it is at 2:35:
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 5:01:40 GMT
Vivienne isn't threatening to tear the fabric of the world apart, and all hopes you may have for a non-genocidal method of doing it are likely to come to naught. Well... in the end, as an elf, what have the humans ever done for me, that I should go out of my way to save them? I can imagine that with the Night Elves getting screwed over after helping free Ferelden from Orlesian occupation, the Dalish potentially losing the Hinterlands even if it was given to them by the Crown (or, conversely, the possible failures of choosing an Elven Bann for the Denerim Alienage due to human bigotry, such as Bann Shianni's murder by racist humans), the chevaliers murdering innocent elves during their initiation rites into the order, Kirkwall doing nothing about a serial killer murdering elven children until Hawke intervened (along with the other injustices that lead some elves to join the Qun in desperation), the burning of Halamshiral (killing thousands of men, women, and children as they burned alive), and many other racial inequalities would provide some substantial reasons for an elf to possibly consider Solas' plan. Admittedly, I'd like my elven protagonist to have the option to persuade Solas that he's wrong and help the elves. In playing as a Dalish elf, I dislike the idea of helping perpetuate the status quo, where elves get trampled under the boot of humanity and any elves who dislike this are vilified or ridiculed, if not purged (like the alienages endure, including an entire orphanage of children) or hunted down (as the Dalish are). I hope persuading Solas that he's wrong doesn't equate to doing nothing about the injustices that elves face. With a new character, he may not necessarily have the same interests as Revas does. My Surana Warden aligned with King Bhelen (and may even have a statute shaped in his likeness carved in Orzammar, given his request), but my apostate Hawke helped Renvil Harrowmont escape Bhelen's assassins (since he was a completely different person than my Warden). Revas wants to save Solas and help the elves, but a new character? Say it's someone who was a slave and was freed by Calpernia (perhaps a Venatori main character), he might want to help her see her dream of Tevinter reborn realized, where all slaves are empowered and freed.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 6:31:02 GMT
Vivienne isn't threatening to tear the fabric of the world apart, and all hopes you may have for a non-genocidal method of doing it are likely to come to naught. Well... in the end, as an elf, what have the humans ever done for me, that I should go out of my way to save them? So, as an elf, you'd leave your own people to die because you don't want to save humans?
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 6:37:36 GMT
Everyone forgets about the dwarves and qunari in these discussions. They'll bite the dust along with the humans and (non-ancient) elves.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 29, 2017 6:44:36 GMT
Well... in the end, as an elf, what have the humans ever done for me, that I should go out of my way to save them? So, as an elf, you'd leave your own people to die because you don't want to save humans?
The jury's still out on whether all elves would die as well; I've heard arguments both ways.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 29, 2017 7:06:38 GMT
So, as an elf, you'd leave your own people to die because you don't want to save humans?
The jury's still out on whether all elves would die as well; I've heard arguments both ways. To be fair, the jury's still out on whether all humans would die, too. Could be it'll be all non-mages, for example. Human, elf, or otherwise.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 7:07:18 GMT
Everyone forgets about the dwarves and qunari in these discussions. They'll bite the dust along with the humans and (non-ancient) elves. That does call into question how a dwarf from the Ambassadoria would feel about all this, since that may be the background of a dwarven main character. Will there be some choices to allow the player to shape their views? What is the character's view on Tevinter proper, and the Tevinter-Qunari War? How would he, or she, feel about the mysterious dwarves of Kal-Sharok? Or about the surface dwarves who have technically lost their caste (while the Ambassadoria dwarves may have exemption from such rules given their unique situation)?
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Post by opuspace on Jan 29, 2017 7:08:05 GMT
So, as an elf, you'd leave your own people to die because you don't want to save humans?
The jury's still out on whether all elves would die as well; I've heard arguments both ways. I don't blame elves for feeling so disenfranchised that they'd turn to anyone who would make a difference for them, but the price is too high when it comes to causing death on that massive a scale. It's way too risky gambling that the elves will be left alone by the chaos and even if they weren't, they'd lose on every moral ground if they knew helping Solas meant the end of all other races. I don't believe that they're going to Solas with full knowledge of what's going to happen though, which is why I hope Bioware won't turn them into the next Quarians where their desperation is downplayed as racial arrogance.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 7:30:59 GMT
Everyone forgets about the dwarves and qunari in these discussions. They'll bite the dust along with the humans and (non-ancient) elves. That does call into question how a dwarf from the Ambassadoria would feel about all this, since that may be the background of a dwarven main character. Will there be some choices to allow the player to shape their views? What is the character's view on Tevinter proper, and the Tevinter-Qunari War? How would he, or she, feel about the mysterious dwarves of Kal-Sharok? Or about the surface dwarves who have technically lost their caste (while the Ambassadoria dwarves may have exemption from such rules given their unique situation)? Stashed this behind a tag so as not to derail the thread too much. They're in a unique position, that's for sure. Socially dwarves are somewhere above elves and qunari but still well below humans (see: comments at the Winter Palace, Cory's comments about Cadash being a "runted dirt worshipper" / "your people have ever been the sand beneath Tevinter heels", criticism about Mae marrying "a status-grubbing dwarf, of all things").
Idle gossip in DAI had a lot of dwarves siding with the templars because they're steady business for the lyrium trade. I imagine a lot of dwarves from up north feel similarly about Tevinter mages: it's good business.
And I find it interesting that Sten seemed to approve of the caste system in DAO. And in DA2 the only real hint we got concerning dwarf/qunari relations was Javaris badgering the Arishok for blackpowder and the Qunari generally being disgusted by his mercenary attitude.
But anyway. The reactions of any given PC will be up to the person playing them, but I can imagine a great big NOPE when it comes to Solas's plan. Especially as it involves the death of all dwarves (they are, after all, a "severed limb") and the pouring of more magic into the world, which'll probably freak a fair number of them out (unless their names are Dagna or Valta).
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Post by Kei on Feb 9, 2017 22:58:49 GMT
You know... kinda like we did with the Bible till not that long ago. The whole 'most of sacred text is an allegory' approach is a fairly modern thing, after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny. I didn't quite understood what you meant. Are you suggesting that exegesis is a contemporary thing that has never existed prior to our modern days? Well that's false,the exegesis of the Old and New testament existed long ago,in fact I would say that only creationists use a literal interpretation on everything. Obviously I'm not saying that everything in the Bible is meant to be an allegory ,but many sections in it like all the parables of the New testment were always meant to be seen as form of allegories.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 9, 2017 23:29:11 GMT
You know... kinda like we did with the Bible till not that long ago. The whole 'most of sacred text is an allegory' approach is a fairly modern thing, after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny. I didn't quite understood what you meant. Are you suggesting that exegesis is a contemporary thing that has never existed prior to our modern days? Well that's false,the exegesis of the Old and New testament existed long ago,in fact I would say that only creationists use a literal interpretation on everything. Obviously I'm not saying that everything in the Bible is meant to be an allegory ,but many sections in it like all the parables of the New testment were always meant to be seen as form of allegories. If you didn't pull a few sentences out of context, you'd know that what I was saying is that generally being accepted among believers that most of their sacred text is largely allegoric is a fairly modern thing. Sort of like earth being round: we've had evidence of it and quite a few ancient or medieval scholars believed that the Earth is round, but that didn't catch on with general public until fairly recently, both thanks to overwhelming evidence as well as general public being generally better educated. Same way it was becoming more and more popular among believers to claim that their sacred texts are largely to be interpreted in non-literal fashion the more it was proven that the literal interpretation doesn't hold water.
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Post by Kei on Feb 10, 2017 0:23:47 GMT
I didn't quite understood what you meant. Are you suggesting that exegesis is a contemporary thing that has never existed prior to our modern days? Well that's false,the exegesis of the Old and New testament existed long ago,in fact I would say that only creationists use a literal interpretation on everything. Obviously I'm not saying that everything in the Bible is meant to be an allegory ,but many sections in it like all the parables of the New testment were always meant to be seen as form of allegories. If you didn't pull a few sentences out of context, you'd know that what I was saying is that generally being accepted among believers that most of their sacred text is largely allegoric is a fairly modern thing. Sort of like earth being round: we've had evidence of it and quite a few ancient or medieval scholars believed that the Earth is round, but that didn't catch on with general public until fairly recently, both thanks to overwhelming evidence as well as general public being generally better educated. Same way it was becoming more and more popular among believers to claim that their sacred texts are largely to be interpreted in non-literal fashion the more it was proven that the literal interpretation doesn't hold water. I don't understand what you're saying at all nor what is the point that you are trying to convey and this isn't me taking sentences out of context. What do you mean by literal? The creationist PoV of the Bible? That isn't a literal interpretation of the Bible that is simply a wrong lecture of it. The majority of the uneducated believers of the past were not even able to read or understand the Bible especially when it was spoken by the theologian only in ancient Latin or Greek,so there was no way they could form the capacity to elaborate a literal interpretation of the Bible at all. I don't understand at all the point you've provided about the Earth being round.The Bible say it is round In Job 26:10 and that isn't an allegory. In short I cannot understand why you are implying that the majority of believers think the Bible is mostly "allegorical",they do not and they shouldn't otherwise they can't be believers at all.....tsome things are meant to be an allegory(especially the parables) many others are not.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2017 0:54:05 GMT
At this point I'm the one who doesn't understand where you're going with all this? I've explained what I meant - in fairly simple fashion - and if you still continue to miss my point, then I'm at a loss as to what else I can write for you to understand me... In fact, I'm confused as to why have you taken part of my comment from 3 months ago out of context of entire discussion and try and make it about the Bible? My use the Bible and IRL faith served as an example relevant to argument I addressed at that time - not an invitation to full-on discussion about Biblical interpretation in a thread that is NOT about it.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 10, 2017 4:10:02 GMT
The jury's still out on whether all elves would die as well; I've heard arguments both ways. I don't blame elves for feeling so disenfranchised that they'd turn to anyone who would make a difference for them, but the price is too high when it comes to causing death on that massive a scale. It's way too risky gambling that the elves will be left alone by the chaos and even if they weren't, they'd lose on every moral ground if they knew helping Solas meant the end of all other races. I don't believe that they're going to Solas with full knowledge of what's going to happen though, which is why I hope Bioware won't turn them into the next Quarians where their desperation is downplayed as racial arrogance. I wonder if Solas is deceiving them
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 10, 2017 4:17:07 GMT
I wonder if Solas is deceiving them I think so,with so promise of Power.... I think he will use them as sacrifices to bring down the veil.
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Post by Kei on Feb 10, 2017 4:23:57 GMT
At this point I'm the one who doesn't understand where you're going with all this? I've explained what I meant - in fairly simple fashion - and if you still continue to miss my point, then I'm at a loss as to what else I can write for you to understand me... In fact, I'm confused as to why have you taken part of my comment from 3 months ago out of context of entire discussion and try and make it about the Bible? My use the Bible and IRL faith served as an example relevant to argument I addressed at that time - not an invitation to full-on discussion about Biblical interpretation in a thread that is NOT about it. If by "I've explained what I meant - in fairly simple fashion" you mean those very confusing and incorrect stuff you said when you made a parallel with the Bible for whatever was the argument you was discussing in the first place,then I'm afraid to say that I cannot understand them not because I'm unable to but because they don't make sense. As for why I've Quoted that exact post from three months ago I will tell you why.I've seen that post now and not earlier and I've decided that I wasn't eager to let it go because I couldn't digest the arrogance in it, therefore any argument you would attempt to make covered by said Umbrella of convenience "in a thread that is NOT about it" is meaningless to me,yes of course I know the Thread is not about the Bible that does not mean however that I will simply ignore what I find to be an offensive post. Why I think is offensive? Saying that most contemporary believers think that their holy text is mostly "Allegorical" without factual relevance because it couldn't be any other way and that in order for the text to stay on the boundary of a reasonable faith it need to be seen mostly as an allegory with no factual relevance at all is indeed offensive for any believer. Moreover after having to read something like: "after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny"... well guess what Archaeological discoveries in the 19th and 20th century have supported some of the Old Testament'of historical narratives and refuted others,that's the whole point of the studies around the Historicity of the Bible to try to figure out which are the Historical facts in the Bible and which are not. All the debates about the Bible carried by modern scholars nowadays such as William Lane Craig,Hugh Ross and many others aren't things to disregard just because you think that The Bible is mostly allegorical and it couldn't be any other way for any reasonable believer because (your words)"it failed to withstand historical and\or scientific scrutiny"
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2017 5:58:21 GMT
...I could address each and every point you've made at length, but I can't help but to feel that if I did, this would turn to be long and tedious exchange for everyone. And that's aside from this being more OT than usual. You're literally forcing this discussion right now for no reason other than to bash someone for saying something you don't like, nevermind when and why it was said, or that it was a vague generalization and NOT something to be taken as if I'm speaking in absolutes. So I'm just going to say this - don't come here and say that my statement is arrogant only to claim that you know what's offensive for "any believer"... I'm not living on a desert, or in a bubble full of atheistic heathens (quite the opposite in fact), so I can tell right away that this is BS. Even the fact that nobody here - and I'm sure many folks are believers - didn't find my statements as 'offensive enough' to try and argue with me about it for 3 months is enough of proof that not all people think the way you do. Of course, you're entitled to feel the way you do... but I am entirely NOT in a mood to continue this discussion - especially that I can see you're making yourself more and more worked up about it, to a point where this is all becoming quite strawman'ish. So I'm leaving it at that.
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Post by secretrare on Feb 10, 2017 6:41:58 GMT
This was something that was discussed when Legacy was released as well. Corypheus gives dialogue that suggests that the City was already Black when the Magisters entered it, meaning that the Chantry may be wrong. I think the exact quote was, "The city was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours." He mentions this in the middle of his rant about Dumat in Legacy. I've never understood Corypheus...if he failed once when he had the support of several magisters like him and even of the Old gods why he believed to be able to manage to reach this "throne" all by himself...
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Post by secretrare on Feb 10, 2017 6:50:58 GMT
I wonder if Solas is deceiving them I think so,with so promise of Power.... I think he will use them as sacrifices to bring down the veil. The elves were used by Cory to enter the fade in the past,that's because there is something in their blood that Humans lack,that's why they used them as sacrifices,i think it was that devil of Dumat who told to Corypheus about this ritual. Now I think Solas will do something by using the elves probably their blood....to remove the veil after all he has never seen them as true elves....
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2017 6:54:29 GMT
I think the exact quote was, "The city was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours." He mentions this in the middle of his rant about Dumat in Legacy. I've never understood Corypheus...if he failed once when he had the support of several magisters like him and even of the Old gods why he believed to be able to manage to reach this "throne" all by himself... Aside from the orb and any knowledge or power he managed to pry from it, the major reason is likely that when he and other priests went on a trip to a Golden City, none of them were effectively immortal, Blighted horrors. The priests were just regular humans - they were not empowered by their gods, save for hearing their whispers. Hence, if regular humans can make a trip to Golden City, a way more powerful Corypheus can attempt it on his own. Plus, you know... the Blight has also twisted his mind, to a point where he was too arrogant to consider that he can fail.
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Post by akiza on Feb 10, 2017 7:06:21 GMT
I think so,with so promise of Power.... I think he will use them as sacrifices to bring down the veil. Now I think Solas will do something by using the elves probably their blood....to remove the veil after all he has never seen them as true elves.... There will only be a small handful of "real people" left alive. Every supremacist's wet dream come true: a whole world to yourself, with no "non-people" to risk polluting their precious pure blood with. Signed Commander Solas.
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Post by isaidlunch on Feb 10, 2017 15:01:33 GMT
I'd rather side with him and help him restore the world to its natural state.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2017 16:31:09 GMT
Now I think Solas will do something by using the elves probably their blood....to remove the veil after all he has never seen them as true elves.... There will only be a small handful of "real people" left alive. Every supremacist's wet dream come true: a whole world to yourself, with no "non-people" to risk polluting their precious pure blood with. Signed Commander Solas. I seem to recall an interview with Patrick Weekes: "...it’s more complicated than that. Come to think of it, “It’s more complicated than that,” may actually be Solas’s battle cry."
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 11, 2017 3:07:53 GMT
I just finished Trespasser and I must say that Solas may be my favorite character in a video game since Kreia in KotOR2. I chose the "kill" option not because my Trevelyan hated Solas's guts -- they were close friends in fact -- but because the fate of the world is at stake and anything else would be cheap sentimentalism in my Inquisitor's eyes.
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