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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2019 12:00:40 GMT
As much as I hate the shift in business models to their live services form. Something like this has no business being put into law. Governments have no business telling businesses how to price their products, and no business telling consumers how to spend their money. They may as well ban lotteries and casinos. If people want to waste their money on entertainment that's their choice. What is a gambling/gaming license?
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 12:15:53 GMT
As much as I hate the shift in business models to their live services form. Something like this has no business being put into law. Governments have no business telling businesses how to price their products, and no business telling consumers how to spend their money. They may as well ban lotteries and casinos. If people want to waste their money on entertainment that's their choice.
A company puts out a product at a certain price point. Consumers will either support that product and it will be successful, or they will not and it will fail. If enough people get fed up with this and stop supporting the model will change. It's consumers' choice, and that's the way it should stay.
The bill's intent is clear. To protect youngsters under 18 from predatory practices. Surely you can understand the reasons for this protection.
As outlined, the bill would mirror the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act in applying to games "targeted at those under the age of 18" and "games with wider audiences whose developers knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions."
"And when kids play games designed for adults, they should be walled off from compulsive microtransactions. Game developers who knowingly exploit children should face legal consequences."
Developers don't allow children to play games designed for adults, parents do. Developers don't allow children to engage in mircotransactions, parents do. My daughter can play all the app games she wants, but if she tries to make a microtransaction on that device it asks for a password, which she doesn't have. If you give a kid a device with Carte blanche to buy what they want, that's on you as a parent.
It's no different than buying a younger child games rated M, or taking them to a rated R movie. If they want to put a warning on the game that says this game contains microtransactions, fine. But banning games is ridiculous. Children can't pay for these things themselves. Parents are letting them do this.
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Post by decafhigh on May 9, 2019 12:28:19 GMT
Generally I would agree that letting the government get involved in regulating video game content is a bad idea since pretty much everything the government touches immediately gets worse. And I guarantee you once they have a toe in the door here regulating loot boxes they aren't going to stop there.
That said, the video game companies over the last couple years have become so egregious and predatory with their monetization schemes this was inevitable. Even after the Battlefront II fiasco these companies refused to adapt, refused to change, and if anything only became even more obscene in their attempts at wringing their customers dry. They have no one but themselves to blame for what is happening.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 12:30:19 GMT
The bill's intent is clear. To protect youngsters under 18 from predatory practices. Surely you can understand the reasons for this protection.
As outlined, the bill would mirror the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act in applying to games "targeted at those under the age of 18" and "games with wider audiences whose developers knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions."
"And when kids play games designed for adults, they should be walled off from compulsive microtransactions. Game developers who knowingly exploit children should face legal consequences."
Developers don't allow children to play games designed for adults, parents do. Developers don't allow children to engage in mircotransactions, parents do. My daughter can play all the app games she wants, but if she tries to make a microtransaction on that device it asks for a password, which she doesn't have. If you give a kid a device with Carte blanche to buy what they want, that's on you as a parent.
It's no different than buying a younger child games rated M, or taking them to a rated R movie. If they want to put a warning on the game that says this game contains microtransactions, fine. But banning games is ridiculous. Children can't pay for these things themselves. Parents are letting them do this.
They collect money. Collecting money from minors is questionable. In many countries you have to be above certain ages to make legal transactions. Simply ignoring such legal requirements doesn't make such well-tested, proven and established principles go away.
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 12:37:23 GMT
As outlined, the bill would mirror the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act in applying to games "targeted at those under the age of 18" and "games with wider audiences whose developers knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions."
"And when kids play games designed for adults, they should be walled off from compulsive microtransactions. Game developers who knowingly exploit children should face legal consequences."
Developers don't allow children to play games designed for adults, parents do. Developers don't allow children to engage in mircotransactions, parents do. My daughter can play all the app games she wants, but if she tries to make a microtransaction on that device it asks for a password, which she doesn't have. If you give a kid a device with Carte blanche to buy what they want, that's on you as a parent.
It's no different than buying a younger child games rated M, or taking them to a rated R movie. If they want to put a warning on the game that says this game contains microtransactions, fine. But banning games is ridiculous. Children can't pay for these things themselves. Parents are letting them do this.
They collect money. Collecting money from minors is questionable. In many countries you have to be above certain ages to make legal transactions. Simply ignoring such legal requirements doesn't make such well-tested, proven and established principles go away.
If my account didn't require a password to buy something and my daughter bought some coins or whatever in a game. Who are they collecting money from? Not my daughter. They're collecting it from me. The person who accepted all the terms and put their credit card number in. Like I said, children can't sign up and pay for these things on their own.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 12:45:55 GMT
They collect money. Collecting money from minors is questionable. In many countries you have to be above certain ages to make legal transactions. Simply ignoring such legal requirements doesn't make such well-tested, proven and established principles go away.
If my account didn't require a password to buy something and my daughter bought some coins or whatever in a game. Who are they collecting money from? Not my daughter. They're collecting it from me. The person who accepted all the terms and put their credit card number in. Like I said, children can't sign up and pay for these things on their own.
That's a problem with authorised transactions. Lack of parenting doesn't allow companies to exploit minors and their families.
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 12:48:40 GMT
Generally I would agree that letting the government get involved in regulating video game content is a bad idea since pretty much everything the government touches immediately gets worse. And I guarantee you once they have a toe in the door here regulating loot boxes they aren't going to stop there. That said, the video game companies over the last couple years have become so egregious and predatory with their monetization schemes this was inevitable. Even after the Battlefront II fiasco these companies refused to adapt, refused to change, and if anything only became even more obscene in their attempts at wringing their customers dry. They have no one but themselves to blame for what is happening.
Battlefront II is nothing but an app game called Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes converted into full game mode. And Battlefront II is nothing compared to how Galaxy of Heroes was monetized.
You can't sell something without consumers. At some point gamers have to start accepting some responsibility for all of this. Companies will keep pushing it out until consumers stopped paying.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2019 13:00:43 GMT
At some point gamers have to start accepting some responsibility for all of this When 80% of the income comes from 20% of the players, or some similar percentage, the majority is already exercising that caution and the minority is the actual problem. I cannot take responsibility for the very active minority that is remorselessly showering greedy publishers with money. And, by all accounts mr. publisher, make the money, but make a reasonable amount of the money, not all of the money and do not exploit the weaknesses of people that are already face problems with gambling addiction. At least put a reasonable disclaimer on your product first.
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 13:14:25 GMT
If my account didn't require a password to buy something and my daughter bought some coins or whatever in a game. Who are they collecting money from? Not my daughter. They're collecting it from me. The person who accepted all the terms and put their credit card number in. Like I said, children can't sign up and pay for these things on their own.
That's a problem with authorised transactions. Lack of parenting doesn't allow companies to exploit minors and their families.
What? So now we're asking the government to do parents' jobs for them? It's not hard to password protect purchases, or simply look at your credit card statement. If you see your child spending money either tell them not to, or set a limit. Violations result in removal of gaming privileges.
I've never seen one of these charges on my credit card statement from my daughter.
Edit: I literally have zero sympathy for this type of attitude. If you refuse to manage your own finances and parent your children you deserve to lose your money.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 13:39:22 GMT
That's a problem with authorised transactions. Lack of parenting doesn't allow companies to exploit minors and their families.
What? So now we're asking the government to do parents' jobs for them? It's not hard to password protect purchases, or simply look at your credit card statement. If you see your child spending money either tell them not to, or set a limit. Violations result in removal of gaming privileges.
I've never seen one of these charges on my credit card statement from my daughter.
Edit: I literally have zero sympathy for this type of attitude. If you refuse to manage your own finances and parent your children you deserve to lose your money.
You're not allowed to sell porn to kids in your porn brick and mortar store. Why would a company be allowed to sell porn to minors on the internet?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 13:56:01 GMT
What? So now we're asking the government to do parents' jobs for them? It's not hard to password protect purchases, or simply look at your credit card statement. If you see your child spending money either tell them not to, or set a limit. Violations result in removal of gaming privileges.
I've never seen one of these charges on my credit card statement from my daughter.
Edit: I literally have zero sympathy for this type of attitude. If you refuse to manage your own finances and parent your children you deserve to lose your money.
You're not allowed to sell porn to kids in your porn brick and mortar store. Why would a company be allowed to sell porn to minors on the internet?
Two completely different things. If a child takes their allowance money into a store and buys some porn, yes, the store is liable. They sold porn directly to a child. If a child goes to buy porn online, they're selling porn as whomever's credit card the child is using. That's on whoever gave it to them. Just like these video games companies are selling microtransactions to whomever bought the game, linked their card to the said game, and agreed to the TOS /EULA whatever.
You're not even exploiting an addiction in this case because the parent wouldn't be the one with the addiction to this, it would be the child. All the parent has to do is simply not allow it to begin with, or pull the plug when they see it getting out of hand.
This isn't even parenting where you have to be at home watching the child nonstop. This is like bare minimum responsibility.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2019 14:14:15 GMT
You're not allowed to sell porn to kids in your porn brick and mortar store. Why would a company be allowed to sell porn to minors on the internet?
Two completely different things. If a child takes their allowance money into a store and buys some porn, yes, the store is liable. They sold porn directly to a child. If a child goes to buy porn online, they're selling porn as whomever's credit card the child is using. That's on whoever gave it to them. Just like these video games companies are selling microtransactions to whomever bought the game, linked their card to the said game, and agreed to the TOS /EULA whatever.
You're not even exploiting an addiction in this case because the parent wouldn't be the one with the addiction to this, it would be the child. All the parent has to do is simply not allow it to begin with, or pull the plug when they see it getting out of hand.
This isn't even parenting where you have to be at home watching the child nonstop. This is like bare minimum responsibility.
If you have kids, then you'd know you're not going to be over them 100% of the time, nor carry your wallet on you 100% of the time. Also, gift cards exist, pre-paid cards exist.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 15:11:20 GMT
You're not allowed to sell porn to kids in your porn brick and mortar store. Why would a company be allowed to sell porn to minors on the internet?
Two completely different things. If a child takes their allowance money into a store and buys some porn, yes, the store is liable. They sold porn directly to a child. If a child goes to buy porn online, they're selling porn as whomever's credit card the child is using. That's on whoever gave it to them. Just like these video games companies are selling microtransactions to whomever bought the game, linked their card to the said game, and agreed to the TOS /EULA whatever.
You're not even exploiting an addiction in this case because the parent wouldn't be the one with the addiction to this, it would be the child. All the parent has to do is simply not allow it to begin with, or pull the plug when they see it getting out of hand.
This isn't even parenting where you have to be at home watching the child nonstop. This is like bare minimum responsibility.
I call that a lazy excuse to evade responsibility.
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Post by decafhigh on May 9, 2019 15:16:00 GMT
You can't sell something without consumers. At some point gamers have to start accepting some responsibility for all of this. Companies will keep pushing it out until consumers stopped paying. While I generally agree with letting the market sort itself out once you start preying on people's addictions, once you start manipulating the spending habits of minors, once you start using targeted psychological manipulation on your consumers there comes a need for some kind of oversight. The argument that "no one forced you to go into that casino" doesn't, and shouldn't, stop us from regulating them. This is something that has been building for years in the video game industry. The companies knew they were stretching their practices past the ethical breaking point and they didn't care. Even once talk began about regulation coming they doubled down on their practices. This move shouldn't be a surprise for them, or the people running these companies are far more detached from reality than even I suspected. If they had taken it upon themselves to address this matter the same way they did with creating the ESRB system in years past to avoid government intervention this all could have been avoided. Their greed was too overwhelming though and they tried to cash in on every cent they could get knowing this or some kind of legislation would be coming to prohibit them sooner rather than later. No one but themselves to blame. Though I agree, gamer's should share a large part of the blame too since they have proven themselves too stupid to stop being taken advantage of.
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Post by shinobiwan on May 9, 2019 15:17:12 GMT
They may as well ban lotteries and casinos. They have. So now we're asking the government to do parents' jobs for them? Governments routinely step in when parents are unable or unwilling to parent properly. This is one of the core functions of government, at least in the US. Not taking a position on this, but the whole point of a government is to create rules to maximize utility where private ordering fails. That most often happens when people aren't acting or are unable to act rationally. Exploiting addiction-like impulses in the manner that gambling does is about as on-point as it gets.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 15:26:18 GMT
Two completely different things. If a child takes their allowance money into a store and buys some porn, yes, the store is liable. They sold porn directly to a child. If a child goes to buy porn online, they're selling porn as whomever's credit card the child is using. That's on whoever gave it to them. Just like these video games companies are selling microtransactions to whomever bought the game, linked their card to the said game, and agreed to the TOS /EULA whatever.
You're not even exploiting an addiction in this case because the parent wouldn't be the one with the addiction to this, it would be the child. All the parent has to do is simply not allow it to begin with, or pull the plug when they see it getting out of hand.
This isn't even parenting where you have to be at home watching the child nonstop. This is like bare minimum responsibility.
I call that a lazy excuse to evade responsibility.
If you're talking about you giving parents an excuse to be lazy and avoid the responsibilities of parenting, then yeah, I completely agree.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 15:29:27 GMT
Two completely different things. If a child takes their allowance money into a store and buys some porn, yes, the store is liable. They sold porn directly to a child. If a child goes to buy porn online, they're selling porn as whomever's credit card the child is using. That's on whoever gave it to them. Just like these video games companies are selling microtransactions to whomever bought the game, linked their card to the said game, and agreed to the TOS /EULA whatever.
You're not even exploiting an addiction in this case because the parent wouldn't be the one with the addiction to this, it would be the child. All the parent has to do is simply not allow it to begin with, or pull the plug when they see it getting out of hand.
This isn't even parenting where you have to be at home watching the child nonstop. This is like bare minimum responsibility.
If you have kids, then you'd know you're not going to be over them 100% of the time, nor carry your wallet on you 100% of the time. Also, gift cards exist, pre-paid cards exist.
If my daughter wants to spend her allowance, birthday, Christmas money on an app game, she can go right ahead. But somehow she always ends up with toys and clothes
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 15:29:46 GMT
I call that a lazy excuse to evade responsibility.
If you're talking about you giving parents an excuse to be lazy and avoid the responsibilities of parenting, then yeah, I completely agree.
You know what I mean, if parenting fails, there is no free pass to abuse the shit out of that fact by others.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 15:34:19 GMT
They may as well ban lotteries and casinos. They have. So now we're asking the government to do parents' jobs for them? Governments routinely step in when parents are unable or unwilling to parent properly. This is one of the core functions of government, at least in the US. Not taking a position on this, but the whole point of a government is to create rules to maximize utility where private ordering fails. That most often happens when people aren't acting or are unable to act rationally. Exploiting addiction-like impulses in the manner that gambling does is about as on-point as it gets.
Government punishes the parent. They say this is how you need to take care of your child, and if you don't you'll be held accountable/and or have your child taken away from you. They don't take care of your child for you while still in your care, doing something you can easily do yourself. That's what this bill is talking about doing. It's not stepping in and holding the parent accountable for not doing their damn job. It's doing their job for them. At most, all that should be done is warning parents what games contain these types of transactions.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 16:56:11 GMT
They have. 9 Governments routinely step in when parents are unable or unwilling to parent properly. This is one of the core functions of government, at least in the US. Not taking a position on this, but the whole point of a government is to create rules to maximize utility where private ordering fails. That most often happens when people aren't acting or are unable to act rationally. Exploiting addiction-like impulses in the manner that gambling does is about as on-point as it gets.
Government punishes the parent. They say this is how you need to take care of your child, and if you don't you'll be held accountable/and or have your child taken away from you. They don't take care of your child for you while still in your care, doing something you can easily do yourself. That's what this bill is talking about doing. It's not stepping in and holding the parent accountable for not doing their damn job. It's doing their job for them. At most, all that should be done is warning parents what games contain these types of transactions.
I guess we have understood now that some simply give a wet fart about the well-being of other people's kids in their society but that is not a common understanding.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 17:14:37 GMT
Government punishes the parent. They say this is how you need to take care of your child, and if you don't you'll be held accountable/and or have your child taken away from you. They don't take care of your child for you while still in your care, doing something you can easily do yourself. That's what this bill is talking about doing. It's not stepping in and holding the parent accountable for not doing their damn job. It's doing their job for them. At most, all that should be done is warning parents what games contain these types of transactions.
I guess we have understood now that some simply give a wet fart about the well-being of other people's kids in their society but that is not a common understanding.
Please just stop, you don;t know me. I run a youth program, and once the youth started getting close to graduation I started a non profit that I fund with a lot of my own money. But these are actually underprivileged, at risk kids. Kids that have to worry about getting shot just walking home from school. No one's running around trying to help them, so spare me the society wants to help children BS.
And excuse me if I have little sympathy for parents allowing their kids to run amuck on their credit cards because they can't take the one minute required to password protect purchases. As a parent they're a lot of the things you can;t control. But that makes it 100x more important that you control the things that you can, and this is easily controllable. No legislation needed.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 9, 2019 17:49:14 GMT
I guess we have understood now that some simply give a wet fart about the well-being of other people's kids in their society but that is not a common understanding.
Please just stop, you don;t know me. I run a youth program, and once the youth started getting close to graduation I started a non profit that I fund with a lot of my own money. But these are actually underprivileged, at risk kids. Kids that have to worry about getting shot just walking home from school. No one's running around trying to help them, so spare me the society wants to help children BS.
And excuse me if I have little sympathy for parents allowing their kids to run amuck on their credit cards because they can't take the one minute required to password protect purchases. As a parent they're a lot of the things you can;t control. But that makes it 100x more important that you control the things that you can, and this is easily controllable. No legislation needed.
When the abuse is systemic only regulation can deal with it.
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Post by shinobiwan on May 9, 2019 18:22:16 GMT
They have. Governments routinely step in when parents are unable or unwilling to parent properly. This is one of the core functions of government, at least in the US. Not taking a position on this, but the whole point of a government is to create rules to maximize utility where private ordering fails. That most often happens when people aren't acting or are unable to act rationally. Exploiting addiction-like impulses in the manner that gambling does is about as on-point as it gets.
Government punishes the parent. They say this is how you need to take care of your child, and if you don't you'll be held accountable/and or have your child taken away from you. They don't take care of your child for you while still in your care, doing something you can easily do yourself. That's what this bill is talking about doing. It's not stepping in and holding the parent accountable for not doing their damn job. It's doing their job for them. At most, all that should be done is warning parents what games contain these types of transactions.
I have no idea what you're talking about at this point. There are plenty of laws prohibiting the sale of goods or services to children under the auspices of protecting them, e.g. tobacco, alcohol. As I mentioned, gambling is already generally outlawed, and the establishments that have gambling licenses are still prohibited from allowing children to gamble. Again, I'm not taking a position on the bill, but to attack it in this manner is bizarre.
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Post by alanc9 on May 9, 2019 18:30:12 GMT
And excuse me if I have little sympathy for parents allowing their kids to run amuck on their credit cards because they can't take the one minute required to password protect purchases. As a parent they're a lot of the things you can;t control. But that makes it 100x more important that you control the things that you can, and this is easily controllable. No legislation needed.
Well, a lot of parents won't control this. Whether this matters depends on what you think the problem is. If the problem is just the money, then it's just the parents' problem. But if fostering addiction-driven behavior in minors is a problem in itself.... Hawley's bill is specifically framed as the latter case. Also note that a substantial number of minors earn and control their own money, and sometimes sales to them are regulated outside of any parental involvement. A high school kid can't (legally) take his earnings from Dairy Queen and buy beer, for instance.
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Post by cypherj on May 9, 2019 18:42:02 GMT
Government punishes the parent. They say this is how you need to take care of your child, and if you don't you'll be held accountable/and or have your child taken away from you. They don't take care of your child for you while still in your care, doing something you can easily do yourself. That's what this bill is talking about doing. It's not stepping in and holding the parent accountable for not doing their damn job. It's doing their job for them. At most, all that should be done is warning parents what games contain these types of transactions.
I have no idea what you're talking about at this point. There are plenty of laws prohibiting the sale of goods or services to children under the auspices of protecting them, e.g. tobacco, alcohol. As I mentioned, gambling is already generally outlawed, and the establishments that have gambling licenses are still prohibited from allowing children to gamble. Again, I'm not taking a position on the bill, but to attack it in this manner is bizarre.
Everyone is trying to compare selling something to kids in person to selling items online. Yes a child can't go into a casino and gamble, or buy beer. But if a child goes online and signs up to play in an online poker room because their parents just gave them their credit card and didn't keep track of what they were using it for, that's on the parents. That's all I'm saying. There's a huge difference between the two. The poker room in this case is going into an agreement with the adult whose name appears on the card, not the child.
This congressperson said if kids are playing games designed for adults, they need to be walled of. Why are the playing games designed for adults in the first place. If they put rated M on a game, and the parent still buys it for the child, what exactly is any government bill going to do about this. The controls were given to consumers to know what there children should and shouldn't be playing or doing and parent's are ignoring them.
Yes, kids start working as minors, but a minor still can't get a credit card to subscribe to any of this.
No bill is going to stop children who are already doing things in their parents' names from continuing to do things in their parents' names. Parents have to stop children from doing things in their names.
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