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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2017 13:16:43 GMT
What seemed odd about this decision is that you only had the option of condemning him to tranquillity if you are a mage. A mage might have more understanding of the workings of the Fade but anyone can appreciate what it means to lose all emotional connection to the world. So I didn't quite see the logic there.
The problem about executing him for me was that he wanted me to do it so he could be a martyr for his cause. Otherwise, it did seem the only real solution to the problem of what to do with him. He was too dangerous to leave alive, particularly in hindsight when you know the Inquisition is being downsized or shut down altogether. It has been asked elsewhere, what becomes of the prisoners?
The most revealing thing about his reaction to being sentenced to tranquillity is that it would seem that in Tevinter it is a punishment restricted to the lower order of mages. May be Altus baulk at tranquilizing other Altus lest it set a bad president. In fact I rather suspect the same in the old Circles. I very much doubt that the offspring of nobility, particularly if their parents stayed in touch as seemed often the case, would be subjected to tranquillity unless they were guilty of serious transgressions. Even then, I think they would more likely be executed. It seemed me that it was the offspring of peasants who had most to fear in the Circles whether tranquillity or abuse by Templars, because they are always cut off totally from their families and have no one to speak up for them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2017 13:29:20 GMT
Except for the thing about titans being individuals rather than one collective "Stone," traditional dwarven beliefs map onto the reality fairly well. And if you weren't looking for a titan, you could walk around inside one and never realize that you'd seen it. This is perfectly true but the argument is somewhat nullified by the fact that the Inquisitor can just stand there and immediately make a connection. I did think the connection between Titans and the dwarven beliefs about the Stone did make sense but it was the writers who then suggested that it could be a cover up. Then, of course, in Trespasser they took it to a whole new level with Mythal (and Elgar'nan) apparently having waged war on the Titans, who objected to their presence on the earth (possibly because they were materialised spirits who had no business being there but certainly because of the large levels of magic being used) and as a result the dwarves being "diminished" in some way. I wonder if it was Mythal who made them "forget" the truth about their connection to the Titans/Stone? Ironically it is suggested in the elven texts that she "freed" them from servitude.
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Post by lilyonce on Dec 10, 2017 13:29:36 GMT
I don't know how ANY mage sympathizing player can use tranquility as a punishment. They could be conservative like Vivienne who approves this judgment. They are concerned with templar abuses and how it plays out in practices like tranquility but affirm tranquility as an alternative to the Harrowing or, for a multitude of reasons, as a punishment. And tranquility is the punishment here. Erimond is no more the person he was- that is the punishment IMO. It's also his salvation and why my mage chooses it for him. Put in psychoanalytic terms, he has an out of control id and ego. Tranquility will impose a Buddhist-like detachment to and observation of his motivations and actions, and so maybe he will come to understand himself and his error. Tranquility as punishment here isn't invoked as vengeance or for pleasure in his suffering. Erimond won't learn in death and his personality is such that it won't happen in a jail cell, so it's tranquility for him.
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 10, 2017 18:17:08 GMT
Amusingly enough, this thread has made me consider romancing Iron Bull as a Qunari Female. Iron Bull at the surface is uninteresting to me. But then people get into the psychology of his struggles and it makes him much more interesting. He is a really great character. I really do love him, and I have done one full romance with him. I played a male, and so the BDSM was slightly less off-putting for me personally. You do have to be prepared to have a male character man-handle your female character and be like, "I know what's best for you." In real life I'd be like, fuck you from here to China you piece of shit LOL But so you gotta be willing to play a female character who likes to be treated that way. Sorry, but exactly how is Bull's BDSM "less off-putting" for a male than female? Isn't that just a tad patronizing to Femquizitor Bullmancers, as if they would be less likely to handle it? I know plenty of women who would perfectly comfortable both dom and subbing, and plenty of men who wouldn't be comfortable with either. If you're thinking about the possible physical power imbalance, that's pretty much irrelevant since:
1) Iron Bull is more physically imposing than all Inquisitors, even other male Qunari, and
2) The second you want to stop, he does so.
Is this your real life opinion, or a role playing thing?
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 10, 2017 21:25:52 GMT
I was just wondering if the strong Elven leanings of the Inquisition made the game appealing to you? Nah. I play lots of qunari and dwarves, and I like being an outsider to the Chantry/ancient elven conflict.
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Post by theascendent on Dec 10, 2017 22:46:37 GMT
I've been playing a bit as a Male Lavellan, and parts of the game just don't seem right with me. Maybe it's the aesthetics or my pro human bias, but something just ain't right. Thoughts?
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Post by Artemis on Dec 10, 2017 23:18:30 GMT
I've been playing a bit as a Male Lavellan, and parts of the game just don't seem right with me. Maybe it's the aesthetics or my pro human bias, but something just ain't right. Thoughts? The first time I played it really did seem like no one cared I was an elf, and I kept being pushed towards being this holy icon for (mostly) humans, and the game didn't let me question it much... or so I felt? But every time I've played it since then I've revised my original takeaway and now I do feel like the game notices your elf-ness and you do have the opportunity to object to their holy nonsense, so I dunno. Maybe it's just b/c you're used to playing a different race.
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Post by theascendent on Dec 11, 2017 0:12:30 GMT
I've been playing a bit as a Male Lavellan, and parts of the game just don't seem right with me. Maybe it's the aesthetics or my pro human bias, but something just ain't right. Thoughts? The first time I played it really did seem like no one cared I was an elf, and I kept being pushed towards being this holy icon for (mostly) humans, and the game didn't let me question it much... or so I felt? But every time I've played it since then I've revised my original takeaway and now I do feel like the game notices your elf-ness and you do have the opportunity to object to their holy nonsense, so I dunno. Maybe it's just b/c you're used to playing a different race. Yeah you're probably right. Just nicer to air these thoughts out.
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Post by majesticjazz on Dec 11, 2017 3:21:06 GMT
I was just wondering if the strong Elven leanings of the Inquisition made the game appealing to you? The problem is that while DAI is heavy on Elven lore and shifts the series to a more Elven centric plot, the dialog of the IQ still suggest that DAI was meant to be played as a human but late in development they added Elves but still kept much of the "human perspective" dialog in the game.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 12:04:21 GMT
If that was the case, and the Inquisitor's parents did not identify as Qunari, his creation screen ad the spreadsheet would have said Kossith and his background description would have mentioned it. I think the reason this was so is because the writers/devs assumed a lot of new players who wouldn't have played DAO or DA2 (and they were right). They settled on a term, Qunari, even though it was incorrect so as not to confuse a new player. This wasn't terrible, though, because then you walk up to Iron Bull thinking, "hey! we're the same!" and then he flat out tells you that no, you're not the same. Not by a long shot. This pushes the player to ask WHY, and perhaps set out to learn why they're a different kind of Qunari. It makes Iron Bull's struggles with turning Vashoth himself even more interesting. When you assure him he won't turn into a beast just because he doesn't follow the Qun, you say this from a place of personal experience. You, a Kossith, have never followed the Qun and you are not a beast and so he won't be either. Anyway, ya. To present the player with a Kossith card, and then have everyone call you a Qunari, except Iron Bull, who says you totally arent, would have been super confusing to a new player. Heh, it did not make me curious or interested in IB’s reasons. I was never the one to let others to try to tell me what or who I am, particularly with disdain. I disliked his character strongly and was upset because the game assigned primary importance to him as a Qunari over my Inquisitor. So, playing a Qunari is among the three things I liked about Inquisition, while IB is among many things I did not. I think elves are handled with more finesse, because I think y’all are right, and you actually can argue with Solas if not change his mind.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 12:17:43 GMT
He is a really great character. I really do love him, and I have done one full romance with him. I played a male, and so the BDSM was slightly less off-putting for me personally. You do have to be prepared to have a male character man-handle your female character and be like, "I know what's best for you." In real life I'd be like, fuck you from here to China you piece of shit LOL But so you gotta be willing to play a female character who likes to be treated that way. Sorry, but exactly how is Bull's BDSM "less off-putting" for a male than female? Isn't that just a tad patronizing to Femquizitor Bullmancers, as if they would be less likely to handle it? I know plenty of women who would perfectly comfortable both dom and subbing, and plenty of men who wouldn't be comfortable with either. If you're thinking about the possible physical power imbalance, that's pretty much irrelevant since:
1) Iron Bull is more physically imposing than all Inquisitors, even other male Qunari, and
2) The second you want to stop, he does so.
Is this your real life opinion, or a role playing thing?
IB is more imposing than a male Qunari Inquisitor? No way! Sorry, but he is old, fat, ugly mercenary who drinks away his days, while the male Inquisitor is a picture perfect character. IB is many things, but imposing he is not, and to think that BioWare wasted our one chance to romance a male Qunari with... this is just heartbreaking. Of course if when we get a female Qunari to romance she will be gorgeous and awesome rebellious character that will be deeply in love with the next protagonist, not this... horror-show. I understand that they want to experiment with various relationships, but I wish they gave this particular package to a human mercenary, because there are other humans, and only one Qunari. The elves do get more appealing romantic choices, even Solas is on the strange side, but I have a feeling it will be made nice in some way.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 11, 2017 12:29:21 GMT
*ahem* I've removed a fight from the thread because there is no place for it. I'm not going to throw bans around because we can be more sensitive than that. If an argument rekindles, please don't feed it and pop me a PM. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 14:15:11 GMT
IB is more imposing than a male Qunari Inquisitor? No way! Sorry, but he is old, fat, ugly mercenary who drinks away his days, while the male Inquisitor is a picture perfect character. IB is many things, but imposing he is not, and to think that BioWare wasted our one chance to romance a male Qunari with... this is just heartbreaking. Of course if when we get a female Qunari to romance she will be gorgeous and awesome rebellious character that will be deeply in love with the next protagonist, not this... horror-show. I understand that they want to experiment with various relationships, but I wish they gave this particular package to a human mercenary, because there are other humans, and only one Qunari. The elves do get more appealing romantic choices, even Solas is on the strange side, but I have a feeling it will be made nice in some way. Iron bull is not handsome, I’ll give you that. But he reads people very well and accepts them as they are and is respectful. Maybe that’s the spy training in him. He also has a good sense of humor. And if you choose to save the chargers from a bad order he is happy about it and his loyalty to them is admirable and a good character trait. Don’t think he is wasted on a male or female Qunari or any other. Eh my opinion of course. He is respectful to anyone, save for my Inquisitor to whom he is openly mean. He is also charging my Inquisitor a great deal of money for the services of his mercenary group - unlike everyone else that joins inquistion as the “right thing to do”. THEN he goes mad because I treat him as a mercenary, because apparently he thought I should accept him as a friend when he did nothing to earn that friendship, not a single personal move to show that the Inquisitor is in any way is important to him. All he does is shoves how Charges are so awesome under your nose, and feeds you endless dialogues about himself and his uniqueness and expects you to like it. It’s not even tit for tat with him. He just expects the Inquisitor to satisfy all his demands, even, apparently in bed. But when you break it down, he is an old, fat despicable alcoholic that goes to whores, chargers his employer, and than expects that employer to bail him out and put his sorry band ahead of his own needs and purposes. Why? There is zero indications in the game that either the bull personally or the chargers did anything seriously valuable for Inquisition. If you do not recruit them, the game proceeds exactly as it does w/o. He is one of the most reprehensible characters in the whole game. At least Morrigan saves the main character, for all her other flaws.
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 11, 2017 14:19:35 GMT
Sorry, but exactly how is Bull's BDSM "less off-putting" for a male than female? Isn't that just a tad patronizing to Femquizitor Bullmancers, as if they would be less likely to handle it? I know plenty of women who would perfectly comfortable both dom and subbing, and plenty of men who wouldn't be comfortable with either. If you're thinking about the possible physical power imbalance, that's pretty much irrelevant since:
1) Iron Bull is more physically imposing than all Inquisitors, even other male Qunari, and
2) The second you want to stop, he does so.
Is this your real life opinion, or a role playing thing?
IB is more imposing than a male Qunari Inquisitor? No way! Sorry, but he is old, fat, ugly mercenary who drinks away his days, while the male Inquisitor is a picture perfect character. IB is many things, but imposing he is not, and to think that BioWare wasted our one chance to romance a male Qunari with... this is just heartbreaking. Of course if when we get a female Qunari to romance she will be gorgeous and awesome rebellious character that will be deeply in love with the next protagonist, not this... horror-show. I understand that they want to experiment with various relationships, but I wish they gave this particular package to a human mercenary, because there are other humans, and only one Qunari. The elves do get more appealing romantic choices, even Solas is on the strange side, but I have a feeling it will be made nice in some way. I meant "more physically imposing" in terms of actual size and mass that some people could find threatening. It is not logical, but no matter how nice a big and tall person might be, there will a small animal part of a short and/or skinny person's brain that is on edge. Especially if they insist on domming.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 14:29:10 GMT
IB is more imposing than a male Qunari Inquisitor? No way! Sorry, but he is old, fat, ugly mercenary who drinks away his days, while the male Inquisitor is a picture perfect character. IB is many things, but imposing he is not, and to think that BioWare wasted our one chance to romance a male Qunari with... this is just heartbreaking. Of course if when we get a female Qunari to romance she will be gorgeous and awesome rebellious character that will be deeply in love with the next protagonist, not this... horror-show. I understand that they want to experiment with various relationships, but I wish they gave this particular package to a human mercenary, because there are other humans, and only one Qunari. The elves do get more appealing romantic choices, even Solas is on the strange side, but I have a feeling it will be made nice in some way. I meant "more physically imposing" in terms of actual size and mass that some people could find threatening. It is not logical, but no matter how nice a big and tall person might be, there will a small animal part of a short and/or skinny person's brain that is on edge. Especially if they insist on domming. He is rather obviously fat. Fat people are not exactly perceived as threatening, more like jolly or relaxed. He even has ewwww man-boobs. Male Qunari doll is as tall as Bull and all ripped.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 15:01:40 GMT
He is respectful to anyone, save for my Inquisitor to whom he is openly mean. He is also charging my Inquisitor a great deal of money for the services of his mercenary group - unlike everyone else that joins inquistion as the “right thing to do”. THEN he goes mad because I treat him as a mercenary, because apparently he thought I should accept him as a friend when he did nothing to earn that friendship, not a single personal move to show that the Inquisitor is in any way is important to him. All he does is shoves how Charges are so awesome under your nose, and feeds you endless dialogues about himself and his uniqueness and expects you to like it. It’s not even tit for tat with him. He just expects the Inquisitor to satisfy all his demands, even, apparently in bed. But when you break it down, he is an old, fat despicable alcoholic that goes to whores, chargers his employer, and than expects that employer to bail him out and put his sorry band ahead of his own needs and purposes. Why? There is zero indications in the game that either the bull personally or the chargers did anything seriously valuable for Inquisition. If you do not recruit them, the game proceeds exactly as it does w/o. He is one of the most reprehensible characters in the whole game. At least Morrigan saves the main character, for all her other flaws. Heh. Don’t hold back on your hate. it’s fun to read.I see him differently. Yes he is a mercenary and a good one nothing wrong with doing his job and he comes to be loyal to the team.. He talks about himself as all the companions do. He also sides with the Inquisitor and remains loyal. Bull provides muscle and a team you need to fight. He knows how to run a cohesive fighting team which the Inquisitor does not. Not sure Some of the others bring much. Agree with his assessment on his merc team. I want a DLC or game with them, they are fantastic characters. And don’t see where you get he is an alcoholic.. As for whoring well no more tha Isabella and some of my wardens and Hawkes so no big deal form there either. The thing he does NOT talk of himself as other companions do. Other companions start with being nice or building up a relationship with the inquisitor, THEN talk about themselves. If Bull started with something like: "Oh, look, a Vashoth. How's life treating you in the South, friend?" instead of: "You are no Qunari" period. And then went into a long-winded drivel of just HOW my character is NOT a Qunari, while I had to stand there and nod... then I would have treated him as every other characters. As it is now... I have left his messenger standing around, and uninstalled the game. Playing a Qunari & having a Qunari in the party again was a huge selling point, actually why I ended up buying the game, but IB managed to spoil that particular aspect. Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. I understand that he is not the only character that does it in BioWARE games, and I would preferred they all did not assume that the protagonist drinks spirits.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Dec 11, 2017 15:15:05 GMT
The focus on elves did not take away from enjoying DAI, but it does remove my desire to play any race other then elf. I have several characters of differing race that have only made it out of the Hinterlands, before I quit and roll another elf. I feel the Solas romance adds quite a bit to the story as well. I also find the way the romance ends a nice counter point to my Warden's romance with Morrigan. One involves a loving couple continuing their journey together by walking through a eluvian, and the other ends with the inquisitor maimed and heartbroken by her lover, as he ends the relationship walking through an eluvian.
My one issue with the elves is how they are so thin. I ended up modding DAI so I can use Sera's outfits/body type. Hawke is my favorite female DA protagonist in part because she actually has muscle tone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 15:39:40 GMT
The thing he does NOT talk of himself as other companions do. Other companions start with being nice or building up a relationship with the inquisitor, THEN talk about themselves. If Bull started with something like: "Oh, look, a Vashoth. How's life treating you in the South, friend?" instead of: "You are no Qunari" period. And then went into a long-winded drivel of just HOW my character is NOT a Qunari, while I had to stand there and nod... then I would have treated him as every other characters. As it is now... I have left his messenger standing around, and uninstalled the game. Playing a Qunari & having a Qunari in the party again was a huge selling point, actually why I ended up buying the game, but IB managed to spoil that particular aspect. Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. bull is nice just not a push over or a brown noser. He is direct and calls it like he sees it or wants you to see it as any spy would. Having and liking drinks does not make one an aloholic, my Inquisitor always has that drink with him- fun times for a hard day. Guess we disagree on the character then. Hope you eventually reinstall and play DAI it’s a hell of a good fun game. I will reinstall it for my kid to play through it, but tbh I have liked every game I have played since Inquisition more than Inquisition except for Prey. I sort of thought about trying to do an elven male and breaking Solas romance gate via mod. But then I think about the game... and, yeah... It just not my game, despite superficially all the check marks being there. I guess that it overall bores/depresses me means more than the awesomeness of playing Qunari, romancing a Qunari or being able to romance an antagonist... or maybe more like it does not allow me to do it the way I would have envisioned any of it. It does not jive and turns into mockery of my expectations. In other words, I become like bull and can have a long-winded justification/explanation/Lore mumbo-jumbo and why’s but in the end how he feels is all clear from that one statement. You are NOT a Qunari.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 11, 2017 16:30:34 GMT
Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. I understand that he is not the only character that does it in BioWARE games, and I would preferred they all did not assume that the protagonist drinks spirits. That's not the definition of alcoholic. There's no evidence that IB has any mental or physical health problems from drinking. He just likes to drink. I can see your point about assumptions for the PC. that scene should have had an alternate dialogue path, but it might have failed an ROI test.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2017 16:32:04 GMT
My one issue with the elves is how they are so thin. I ended up modding DAI so I can use Sera's outfits/body type. Hawke is my favorite female DA protagonist in part because she actually has muscle tone. Ha, same. I use the "slim build" (still bigger than original) and "rogue armors" mod so that the armor fits the new body. My Lavellan doesn't have a pooch in his belly anymore either. His torso has a proper upside down triangle look to it now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 16:40:41 GMT
Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. I understand that he is not the only character that does it in BioWARE games, and I would preferred they all did not assume that the protagonist drinks spirits. That's not the definition of alcoholic. There's no evidence that IB has any mental or physical health problems from drinking. He just likes to drink. I can see your point about assumptions for the PC. that scene should have had an alternate dialogue path, but it might have failed an ROI test. I don’t mind it because I am resigned to drinking being always presented as companionable and relaxing and stuff, and just headcannon my character having prune juice. It’s the you are NOT Qunari and Bull’s looks and his romance that irk me so much, particularly because it’s so likely that we’ll never get another male Qunari, the one to fulfill all my dreams about the race fueled by the admittedly highly romanticized and over dramatic portrail in DAO and DA2. In other words, I am deeply dissapointed and annoyed by how bull turned out, so I will nit-pick anything about him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2017 18:49:11 GMT
Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. I understand that he is not the only character that does it in BioWARE games, and I would preferred they all did not assume that the protagonist drinks spirits. Yeah, that is a big gripe I have about Bioware games of late. I'm tired of either your character being forced to be someone who drinks, or if optional either gets less content because of it and usually acts like a jerk if they don't join in on the drinking.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 18:55:15 GMT
Yes, he is an alcoholic and makes my character drink booze as well to have one of his conversations. I understand that he is not the only character that does it in BioWARE games, and I would preferred they all did not assume that the protagonist drinks spirits. Yeah, that is a big gripe I have about Bioware games of late. I'm tired of either your character being forced to be someone who drinks, or if optional either gets less content because of it and usually acts like a jerk if they don't join in on the drinking. Meanwhile all drugs are evil, from Black Lotus on to Lyrium. (Shrug)
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Dec 11, 2017 19:08:27 GMT
Erimond is so supremely and overwhelmingly unremorseful about his actions. The second he showed his mind control powers by "arms up, arms down" with a grin like he was getting off on it...and then telling them they were so stupid and easy to trick... no respect for life at all. He deserves to die. I'm on the fence about tranquiilization. He doesn't respect the life. He doesn't respect the free will. Only thing, what he respects is himself. His own desires, his own personality. To me, this is the difference between vengeance and punishment. I find Erimond to be the very worst of the bunch for the reasons Phoray mentioned. He knows exactly what he's doing, knows how the world will be affected by Corypheus, and is completely happy to go along with it and help in any way he can. To me, he is the very worst example of what Tevinter has to offer, almost a southern caricature of what a Tevinter mage is in that way*. That said, I don't know how ANY mage sympathizing player can use tranquility as a punishment. It seems hypocritical to me, to decry templar treatment of mages, including the indiscriminate use of tranquility, and then use it yourself. Choosing to use tranquility in that situation says more about the person who makes the choice. After the person is made tranquil, they're not the same person, so the punishment isn't actually exacted on that individual that did whatever crime. Once tranquil, they're no longer concerned about anything. It's only a punishment for the few minutes the person has to freak out over the decision, but afterward they are literally "tranquil" in that they don't care, and might actually prefer that existence, as people like Owain and the Ostagar tranquil claimed to. Tranquility is also used as a weapon in Tevinter. To use it in that way shows that you are no better. * This isn't meant as a criticism of his characterization, but rather meant to suggest that southern views of Tevinter mages are based around some truth, exemplified by people like Erimond. Context matters, I think. The only reason I hated Tranquilization was because it was heavily implied Templars used it frequently against innocent mages and as a way to make sex slaves. Erimond was neither innocent or likely to be used as a sex slave, so I rationalized that my mage Inquisitors were fine with using it against a prick like him. Plus, I thought a Tranquil Erimond would a lot more willing divulge secrets about Corypheus and the Venatori.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Dec 11, 2017 19:10:28 GMT
How is Iron Bull fat or an alcoholic? Is Jade Dreamer trolling for funzies or something.
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