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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2017 22:24:17 GMT
I entirely agree that after centuries of resisting the oppression of the Chantry that the Dalish would not be remotely interested in accommodating the Maker promoted by the Chantry into their worship. Again, I would point out there is no acknowledgement by the writers that this is a valid point of view. Hence my comments about Cassandra and Solas.
As we are heading to Tevinter, the attitude of the Dalish is not likely to feature much in the next game. However, I do wonder how they are going to deal with the issue of the Evanuris as presented in Trespasser and the impact on the Dalish. The epilogue screen at the end of the DLC shows elves rushing off to join Solas, including the one at the front clearly having vallaslin, and since they also have hair they are clearly not ancient elves. Whilst the Dalish might want their gods back, I question whether they would believe Fen'Harel, much less trust him. Still the fact that Mythal was murdered would give them pause. So they would learn that their lore was correct and Fen'Harel did indeed shut the gods away, but in fact they weren't really gods and kept slaves. How do you think they would respond to that?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2017 22:41:11 GMT
I actually think they did some very strange things with the way the various religions were portrayed in DAI but to my mind the most inconsistent was the way in which the Chantry version of Andrastrianism was portrayed compared with the previous games and certainly the lore books. The dogma of the Chantry is that there is only one god. He is not one among many. His specific reason for abandoning the world is that people turned to other gods and forgot him. Now it may well be (as I believe DG stated) that the ancient Neromenians originally worshipped the Maker as one among many. What the Threnodies 6 suggests is that the other gods would only give their help to the various human tribes if they specifically rejected the Maker. Whatever the case, in Transfigurations 1 the first truth that the Maker revealed to Andraste is "there is but ONE god and He is our Maker. They are sinners, who have given their love to false gods". Now whether this is actually what Andraste taught or whether it was subsequently altered by Drakon is irrelevant. That is the current dogma of the Chantry, which anyone who had been part of it ought to believe. Cassandra of all people, as a Seeker of Truth, should not be suggesting to Lavellan that simply being open minded enough to accommodate the Maker into their own pantheon is all that is needed. When she said that to me the first time I just couldn't believe it because of what I knew about Chantry dogma. I wanted to reply that I wasn't the one with the problem. It was the Chantry that said I wasn't allowed to have my own gods as well as the Maker. That is the point I have been trying to make. The Dalish admit their lore is incomplete. So there would be room in the pantheon for another if they felt that god was consistent with their beliefs. The way the Canticle of Shartan is framed, it could have been possible for Shartan to believe in the Maker and his own gods because according to the Canticle, Andraste placed Shartan on an equal footing to herself in the eyes of the Maker. There is no mention of her being the Maker's bride, simply his prophet. However, equally it could have been an alliance of convenience because according to Dalish tradition, as reflected in this Canticle, their crusade wasn't about spreading the Chant of Light but bringing freedom to the slaves. Nevertheless, the Maker of the Canticle of Shartan, who supports the rebellion of the slaves would be a god they would feel able to acknowledge, given how much freedom means to the Dalish. Shartan is also declared by Andraste to be the champion of their cause, charged with freeing their people, so this god would seem to approve of the elves and their leader. She gives him a highly symbolic sword in Glandivalis, considering Glandival means "believe". What the Dalish could not accommodate into their pantheon would be the Maker promoted by the Chantry, who does not permit freedom of worship of their own gods and in fact absolutely prohibits it. It is this god that was promoted by Drakon and on which he founded his Chantry. There were other versions of Andrastianism in his time among the tribes that did seem to accommodate the Maker as part of a larger pantheon of their traditional gods but Drakon wiped them all out in his desire to "simplify" things. The Dalish would have been aware of this, so they would be under no illusions about the direction Drakon was taking with his Maker and Chantry. It was absolutely reminiscent of Tevinter under the Old Gods, where they were forbidden their own faith and only allowed to worship the gods of their masters. This is the viewpoint that is lacking in any dialogue through DAI or its DLC. Then we have Ameridan, who is apparently a good friend to Drakon, apparently worshipping Ghilan'nain and Andraste equally as mortals that have been raised to godhood. Now that is something that could have been compatible with the beliefs of the Dalish but was totally incompatible with the beliefs of the Chantry. Then Solas, and by implication the writers, are holding up Ameridan as an example of someone who is open minded enough to honour both faiths equally. This is, of course, absolute nonsense. He is either honouring a form of Andrastrianism as followed in the Dales, which incorporates both the Creators and the Maker/Andraste into their beliefs and is therefore an offshoot cult of both Dalish and Chantry faiths, but separate from them, or he is honouring neither faith because the Chantry would regard his acknowledgement of Ghilan'nain on an equal footing to Andraste as heretical, and the Dalish would see honouring Andraste as equal to Ghilan'nain as heretical, since to them Andraste was merely a prophet, an equal to Shartan, and not a god. Keep in mind in the case of Ameridan that he was also eight hundred years removed from the Chantry in its current state. And while we know of Drakon by reputation, all our information about him is second-hand. I mean, look at how Ameridan turned out to be , compared to what history made of him! If a Dalish mage who, by current definitions, would be an apostate could be buddies with Drakon, then our knowledge of him is, at best incomplete. As such, I would be careful to separate worshiping the Maker and Andraste as opposed to following the Chantry. And in particular the Chantry as it currently stands. They are not the same thing. Heck even among the Inquisitor's followers you have people who believe in and even worship the Maker, but in their own way. Dorian believes in the Maker and Andraste, but doesn't really follow the Chantry, even the northern one. Varric has over time become a believer, though as Cassandra says he "blasphemes with every other breath"
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2017 19:27:53 GMT
The difference between Drakon and Ameridan, though, is that Drakon's history has been promoted by his own side. In Orlais he is revered almost as much as Andraste and was declared "Anointed" on his death. His image is almost as prominent in Orlesian Chantrys as Andraste. Now I'm not saying they may not have got some bits wrong but on the whole you'd think they would have played down his blood drenched crusade against fellow worshipers of the Maker, not recorded it as something to be admired, but considering how Sister Amity was promoted on the Exalted Plains, I have a feeling that the depiction of Drakon is reasonably accurate. There was no unified Andrastrian faith until he stepped forward and made his own version the only one. Even Ameridan admits that Drakon wants to "simplify" things.
By contrast, Ameridan was two things, a mage and an elf, that became an anathema to the Chantry, so it is hardly surprising that they quietly forgot his role in history and covered up his true identity. Nothing that Ameridan says about Drakon would seem to contradict the idea of his empire building on the back of a religious crusade.
Mind you, Drakon isn't the only aspect of the Chantry faith that no one ever questions. Look at the history of Andraste, for which we appear to have three different versions, Chant of Light, Chantry Scholars and secular scholars. Take her capture, for example. The Chant of Light claims that her army was up close to Minrathous (where it claims and the maps show the Valarian Fields) and Maferath encouraged her to consult with the Maker at a silver pool where she was ambushed by Tevinter forces, Genitivi's version confirms an ambush but that the battle of Valarian Fields and her capture was in the southern part of Tevinter, and secular scholars say that Maferath actually allowed disguised Tevinter forces to enter her stronghold in Nevarra City. The secular version and Genitivi's quite clearly show that her army never got anywhere near Minrathous, which was why she was still in Nevarra after the Battle of Valarian Fields. Wherever the site of the battle was, it is not where it is now shown.
The presence of people like Dorian and Varric show that not everyone who believes in the Maker is prepared to tow the Chantry line. I am quite happy to separate worshipping the Maker from following the Chantry and seeming to support it. Unfortunately, so far as the Inquisitor is concerned, you are not allowed to categorically state that is your position.
As for the Tevinter Chantry, it will be interesting to see exactly what they do believe in with regard to the Maker and Andraste. Naturally we haven't seen much of the Imperial Chant of Light considering it is a banned book in the South. We know they have different passages about magic and do not consider Andraste the Bride of the Maker, but merely a human prophet and a mage at that. Surprisingly, considering Hessarian wrote it, it would seem that they don't hold much store by the Canticle of Silence or any verses in other parts of the Chant that ascribe blame for the Blight to the Tevinter Magisters (according to Dorian). So as we move into Tevinter I am looking forward to being enlightened on that one.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 5, 2017 20:41:36 GMT
The presence of people like Dorian and Varric show that not everyone who believes in the Maker is prepared to tow the Chantry line. I am quite happy to separate worshipping the Maker from following the Chantry and seeming to support it. Unfortunately, so far as the Inquisitor is concerned, you are not allowed to categorically state that is your position. You most certainly CAN state that as your position. During that faith conversation, after Dorian makes his remarks about the Chantry you can state that you agree with him. After which he states that he's not surprised, considering the Inquisition and what it represents. Even not considering that dialogue option, there is nothing in the game that states that an Andrastian Inquisitor can't have a broader view. I don't ignore things in favor of my own headcanon, and I feel comfortable in playing an Andrastian character that not only struggles with his faith (because of the events in the game), but also one that is disillusioned with the Chantry as an organization.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 5, 2017 22:27:23 GMT
The difference between Drakon and Ameridan, though, is that Drakon's history has been promoted by his own side. In Orlais he is revered almost as much as Andraste and was declared "Anointed" on his death. His image is almost as prominent in Orlesian Chantrys as Andraste. Now I'm not saying they may not have got some bits wrong but on the whole you'd think they would have played down his blood drenched crusade against fellow worshipers of the Maker, not recorded it as something to be admired, but considering how Sister Amity was promoted on the Exalted Plains, I have a feeling that the depiction of Drakon is reasonably accurate. There was no unified Andrastrian faith until he stepped forward and made his own version the only one. Even Ameridan admits that Drakon wants to "simplify" things. By contrast, Ameridan was two things, a mage and an elf, that became an anathema to the Chantry, so it is hardly surprising that they quietly forgot his role in history and covered up his true identity. Nothing that Ameridan says about Drakon would seem to contradict the idea of his empire building on the back of a religious crusade. Mind you, Drakon isn't the only aspect of the Chantry faith that no one ever questions. Look at the history of Andraste, for which we appear to have three different versions, Chant of Light, Chantry Scholars and secular scholars. Take her capture, for example. The Chant of Light claims that her army was up close to Minrathous (where it claims and the maps show the Valarian Fields) and Maferath encouraged her to consult with the Maker at a silver pool where she was ambushed by Tevinter forces, Genitivi's version confirms an ambush but that the battle of Valarian Fields and her capture was in the southern part of Tevinter, and secular scholars say that Maferath actually allowed disguised Tevinter forces to enter her stronghold in Nevarra City. The secular version and Genitivi's quite clearly show that her army never got anywhere near Minrathous, which was why she was still in Nevarra after the Battle of Valarian Fields. Wherever the site of the battle was, it is not where it is now shown. The presence of people like Dorian and Varric show that not everyone who believes in the Maker is prepared to tow the Chantry line. I am quite happy to separate worshipping the Maker from following the Chantry and seeming to support it. Unfortunately, so far as the Inquisitor is concerned, you are not allowed to categorically state that is your position. As for the Tevinter Chantry, it will be interesting to see exactly what they do believe in with regard to the Maker and Andraste. Naturally we haven't seen much of the Imperial Chant of Light considering it is a banned book in the South. We know they have different passages about magic and do not consider Andraste the Bride of the Maker, but merely a human prophet and a mage at that. Surprisingly, considering Hessarian wrote it, it would seem that they don't hold much store by the Canticle of Silence or any verses in other parts of the Chant that ascribe blame for the Blight to the Tevinter Magisters (according to Dorian). So as we move into Tevinter I am looking forward to being enlightened on that one. That's the thing, though, Ameridan wasn't forgotten. He was still revered in Orlais even into the present day. There was a family, the d'Amerides, who even claimed descent from him (falsely, of course). What happened was he was changed to fit a more "acceptable" image. He went from being an elf to being human, a mage to a warrior. Rumors of his "lady mage" beloved were suppressed. It's certainly possible that Drakon was similarly changed, though probably not so drastically. He founded the Orlesian empire, the Chantry, and was instrumental in southern Thedas surviving the Second Blight. So of course he'd be idolized by the Orlesians. And as such, over the years, decades, centuries, any "problematic" aspects of him would be changed, suppressed, or otherwise ignored. And given modern Orlesian society, a pious warrior is what tehy admire, and so a pious warrior is what Drakon MUST be. Tevinter's view of Andraste compared to teh Southern Chantry reflects this too. To Tevinter, of COURSE Andraste was a mage! Mages are the most powerful and respected people in the Imperium! So of course the Maker's prophet would be one of them! Compared to the south's more pessimistic view on magic, where Andraste led a crusade AGAINST the magisters and their corrupt magic. Whic his true? WHich is false? Maybe there's a bit of truth in both?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 6, 2017 19:36:10 GMT
I think the Orlesian's would idolize Drakon regardless. They are the nation that gave us the game after all. That's the point really. The nobility of Orlais only give lip service to the moral imperatives of the Chant and with an example like Drakon why should they do any different? He was a pious warrior, I'm not denying that, who was fully convinced he was on a divine mission to spread the faith. What I question is the means he used to do this, particularly considering many of the people he killed were believers and followers of the Maker, just not his version of the faith. It is the fact that the Chantry are fully aware of this and yet still celebrate him that I object to. It is also this aspect of him that makes the Dalish attitude to him more understandable. I repeat that the elves were co-existing with the human neighbours perfectly okay for the first 150 years or so of the Dales and it was only after the advent of Drakon and his Chantry, with his religiously inspired empire building, that problems started to arise.
It would seem, though that Ameridan was only remembered as the friend of Drakon who oversaw the transformation of the original Inquisition into the Seekers of Truth. Plus a few folktales concerning him. I think the reason there was no record of his last mission is that it was erased from official histories along with his race and class. It was actually pretty daft that he would have gone on such an important mission with a party of only four people. Look at when we go to the Frostback Basin. While undertaking our local investigations we do it with our core team, but there is a whole back up squad at our local HQ. So if our Inquisitor had gone missing but one of their companions managed to make it out, there would be someone for them to report to. It is the fact that there was no official record of what he was investigating when he went missing that seems suspicious.
As for Andraste, there have been hints since DAO that she may have been a mage. I actually think that on the evidence it is more likely she was a mage and likely a Dreamer mage. You can be a mage and yet still crusading against mage tyrants and corrupt magic (look at Solas). Remember Hessarian was also a Magister and yet turned on his fellow Altus because they were his political and religious rivals. The Chantry make no dispute of the fact that for Maferath at least this was a political campaign rather than a religious one, which is why he was happy enough to call a halt when it seemed politically expedient to do so. It is all the other contradictions in the story that I question, so that the southern Chantry's depiction of Andraste seems to bear little resemblance to the historical figure, which is borne out by actual scholarly testimony on the subject. This is why I will find it fascinating to see what bits Tevinter agree with and what their alternative version is besides simply the fact that they think she was a mage.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2017 21:03:53 GMT
I think the Orlesian's would idolize Drakon regardless. They are the nation that gave us the game after all. That's the point really. The nobility of Orlais only give lip service to the moral imperatives of the Chant and with an example like Drakon why should they do any different? He was a pious warrior, I'm not denying that, who was fully convinced he was on a divine mission to spread the faith. What I question is the means he used to do this, particularly considering many of the people he killed were believers and followers of the Maker, just not his version of the faith. It is the fact that the Chantry are fully aware of this and yet still celebrate him that I object to. It is also this aspect of him that makes the Dalish attitude to him more understandable. I repeat that the elves were co-existing with the human neighbours perfectly okay for the first 150 years or so of the Dales and it was only after the advent of Drakon and his Chantry, with his religiously inspired empire building, that problems started to arise. It would seem, though that Ameridan was only remembered as the friend of Drakon who oversaw the transformation of the original Inquisition into the Seekers of Truth. Plus a few folktales concerning him. I think the reason there was no record of his last mission is that it was erased from official histories along with his race and class. It was actually pretty daft that he would have gone on such an important mission with a party of only four people. Look at when we go to the Frostback Basin. While undertaking our local investigations we do it with our core team, but there is a whole back up squad at our local HQ. So if our Inquisitor had gone missing but one of their companions managed to make it out, there would be someone for them to report to. It is the fact that there was no official record of what he was investigating when he went missing that seems suspicious. As for Andraste, there have been hints since DAO that she may have been a mage. I actually think that on the evidence it is more likely she was a mage and likely a Dreamer mage. You can be a mage and yet still crusading against mage tyrants and corrupt magic (look at Solas). Remember Hessarian was also a Magister and yet turned on his fellow Altus because they were his political and religious rivals. The Chantry make no dispute of the fact that for Maferath at least this was a political campaign rather than a religious one, which is why he was happy enough to call a halt when it seemed politically expedient to do so. It is all the other contradictions in the story that I question, so that the southern Chantry's depiction of Andraste seems to bear little resemblance to the historical figure, which is borne out by actual scholarly testimony on the subject. This is why I will find it fascinating to see what bits Tevinter agree with and what their alternative version is besides simply the fact that they think she was a mage. Orlais gave us the Game, yes. But remember, Drakon tried (and failed) to destroy it. The nobility of Orlais give lip service, yes, but perhaps some of Drakon's more pious attitudes clashed with what the nobility would rather do? What do we really know about Drakon's means and intentions, really? Almost everything we know of him is what other people wrote about him. This is what makes Ameridan's view so important. Not only did he know Drakon well, they had been friends for years. And despite Ameridan's race, magic, and views of Andraste which would be heretical AT BEST in the current time period. This makes me wonder if Drakon was not as rigidly dogmatic as the histories say. Perhaps the whole Chantry of the time period was more laid-back than we thought, and has become more rigid over time? And the people, looking back at their historical heroes, see them through the lens of their own experiences, and thus only see what they want to see.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 16:49:49 GMT
I think the Orlesian's would idolize Drakon regardless. They are the nation that gave us the game after all. That's the point really. The nobility of Orlais only give lip service to the moral imperatives of the Chant and with an example like Drakon why should they do any different? He was a pious warrior, I'm not denying that, who was fully convinced he was on a divine mission to spread the faith. What I question is the means he used to do this, particularly considering many of the people he killed were believers and followers of the Maker, just not his version of the faith. It is the fact that the Chantry are fully aware of this and yet still celebrate him that I object to. It is also this aspect of him that makes the Dalish attitude to him more understandable. I repeat that the elves were co-existing with the human neighbours perfectly okay for the first 150 years or so of the Dales and it was only after the advent of Drakon and his Chantry, with his religiously inspired empire building, that problems started to arise. It would seem, though that Ameridan was only remembered as the friend of Drakon who oversaw the transformation of the original Inquisition into the Seekers of Truth. Plus a few folktales concerning him. I think the reason there was no record of his last mission is that it was erased from official histories along with his race and class. It was actually pretty daft that he would have gone on such an important mission with a party of only four people. Look at when we go to the Frostback Basin. While undertaking our local investigations we do it with our core team, but there is a whole back up squad at our local HQ. So if our Inquisitor had gone missing but one of their companions managed to make it out, there would be someone for them to report to. It is the fact that there was no official record of what he was investigating when he went missing that seems suspicious. As for Andraste, there have been hints since DAO that she may have been a mage. I actually think that on the evidence it is more likely she was a mage and likely a Dreamer mage. You can be a mage and yet still crusading against mage tyrants and corrupt magic (look at Solas). Remember Hessarian was also a Magister and yet turned on his fellow Altus because they were his political and religious rivals. The Chantry make no dispute of the fact that for Maferath at least this was a political campaign rather than a religious one, which is why he was happy enough to call a halt when it seemed politically expedient to do so. It is all the other contradictions in the story that I question, so that the southern Chantry's depiction of Andraste seems to bear little resemblance to the historical figure, which is borne out by actual scholarly testimony on the subject. This is why I will find it fascinating to see what bits Tevinter agree with and what their alternative version is besides simply the fact that they think she was a mage. Orlais gave us the Game, yes. But remember, Drakon tried (and failed) to destroy it. The nobility of Orlais give lip service, yes, but perhaps some of Drakon's more pious attitudes clashed with what the nobility would rather do? What do we really know about Drakon's means and intentions, really? Almost everything we know of him is what other people wrote about him. This is what makes Ameridan's view so important. Not only did he know Drakon well, they had been friends for years. And despite Ameridan's race, magic, and views of Andraste which would be heretical AT BEST in the current time period. This makes me wonder if Drakon was not as rigidly dogmatic as the histories say. Perhaps the whole Chantry of the time period was more laid-back than we thought, and has become more rigid over time? And the people, looking back at their historical heroes, see them through the lens of their own experiences, and thus only see what they want to see. I think wiping out an entire population of men, women, and children because they didn't adhere to your particular religious teachings is pretty rigid, so I don't see how Drakon is any different than what his own historical supporters claim. The only thing Ameridan shows is that he didn't care about this. Ameridan's own dialogue indicates that Drakon wants to continue expanding the Orlesian Empire - as evidenced by his own explicit dialogue responses to either the human or the qunari protagonist. It also showed that Drakon wanted to convert the rest of the world to the Chant, and Ameridan evidently had no problem with that. If one of Drakon's own allies says that he wanted to expand his empire and continue converting others to his faith, doesn't it stand to reason that it's likely true?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2017 17:06:15 GMT
Orlais gave us the Game, yes. But remember, Drakon tried (and failed) to destroy it. The nobility of Orlais give lip service, yes, but perhaps some of Drakon's more pious attitudes clashed with what the nobility would rather do? What do we really know about Drakon's means and intentions, really? Almost everything we know of him is what other people wrote about him. This is what makes Ameridan's view so important. Not only did he know Drakon well, they had been friends for years. And despite Ameridan's race, magic, and views of Andraste which would be heretical AT BEST in the current time period. This makes me wonder if Drakon was not as rigidly dogmatic as the histories say. Perhaps the whole Chantry of the time period was more laid-back than we thought, and has become more rigid over time? And the people, looking back at their historical heroes, see them through the lens of their own experiences, and thus only see what they want to see. I think wiping out an entire population of men, women, and children because they didn't adhere to your particular religious teachings is pretty rigid, so I don't see how Drakon is any different than what his own historical supporters claim. The only thing Ameridan shows is that he didn't care about this. Ameridan's own dialogue indicates that Drakon wants to continue expanding the Orlesian Empire - as evidenced by his own explicit dialogue responses to either the human or the qunari protagonist. It also showed that Drakon wanted to convert the rest of the world to the Chant, and Ameridan evidently had no problem with that. If one of Drakon's own allies says that he wanted to expand his empire and continue converting others to his faith, doesn't it stand to reason that it's likely true? I have met Ameridan as both a human and a qunari Inquisitor and don't remember anything like that. And given Ameridan disappeared some fifteen years into the Second Blight, it's hard to see how he could consider such a thing possible. At the time, all of Thedas (including Orlais) was fighting for its very existence. ANd given Drakon's bff was, by the current Chantry's definition, an apostate and a heretic, I am willing to bet Drakon was a bit more complicated than "convert or die" Heck, we focus so much on the Chantry, I have to wonder how the modern Dalish would feel about Ameridan's stance regarding the Maker and Andraste?
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 17:18:25 GMT
I think wiping out an entire population of men, women, and children because they didn't adhere to your particular religious teachings is pretty rigid, so I don't see how Drakon is any different than what his own historical supporters claim. The only thing Ameridan shows is that he didn't care about this. Ameridan's own dialogue indicates that Drakon wants to continue expanding the Orlesian Empire - as evidenced by his own explicit dialogue responses to either the human or the qunari protagonist. It also showed that Drakon wanted to convert the rest of the world to the Chant, and Ameridan evidently had no problem with that. If one of Drakon's own allies says that he wanted to expand his empire and continue converting others to his faith, doesn't it stand to reason that it's likely true? I have met Ameridan as both a human and a qunari Inquisitor and don't remember anything like that. And given Ameridan disappeared some fifteen years into the Second Blight, it's hard to see how he could consider such a thing possible. At the time, all of Thedas (including Orlais) was fighting for its very existence. ANd given Drakon's bff was, by the current Chantry's definition, an apostate and a heretic, I am willing to bet Drakon was a bit more complicated than "convert or die" Heck, we focus so much on the Chantry, I have to wonder how the modern Dalish would feel about Ameridan's stance regarding the Maker and Andraste? Ameridan doesn't seem too bothered with the prospect of Drakon conquering other lands. When seeing the Vashoth Inquisitor, he says: "Inquisitor. Drakon's empire has spread far while I slept." We all know Drakon created Orlais by launching Exalted Marches against his neighbors and conquering lands. In conversation with the human Inquisitor, he remarks: "How fares Drakon? Has he brought the Chant to the whole world yet?" It's clearly evident that Drakon wants to convert other lands to his Andrastian faith. How would modern Dalish feel about a Drakon lapdog? The People likely wouldn't see him in a very positive light.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2017 18:10:51 GMT
There is an interesting line in the Core Rule Book about Drakon. Apparently, in 1:33 Divine Drakon was heading north with his army to take advantage of Tevinter's weakness during the Blight, rather than to actively fight the darkspawn, but then he received word of the Wardens under siege in the Anderfels, turned aside to assist and was rewarded with their mass conversion to his faith in gratitude. Please note, though, that was not his original aim in marching north but in fact he was still empire building in the middle of the 2nd Blight. I'm not sure from whose perspective the history in the Core Rule Book is written but it doesn't paint his motivations in a good light.
Something I still find odd about the whole business of Ameridan apparently protecting Orlais from invasion by a horde of barbarians, in order to free up Drakon's army to march elsewhere, is that in order to reach Orlais, the Avaar would have had to have crossed the Dales. Thus long before they reached southern Orlais they would have encountered the Emerald Knights. So surely Ameridan's actions were saving his own country as much as they were Orlais? That being the case, I would have thought the leadership in the Dales should be as interested in how he was getting on as Drakon. Not only that, but it would also explain why the Dalish were reluctant to commit forces further afield, since not only were they likely dealing with darkspawn within their own borders but there was still the threat of savage Avaar descending on them from the Frostbacks. Alternatively, if the Avaar descended by their usual route they would have had to cross Ferelden first and then the northern Dales before they reached Orlais. So I must assume that at this time Ferelden was under Orlesian occupation, Drakon having conquered into that region spreading his Chant before the Blight started, which would account for the fortress being called Fort Drakon and thus why he was so anxious for Ameridan to deal with the Avaar threat.
If you have a Dalish Inquisitor you don't get the same sense of Ameridan's complaisant attitude towards Drakon's empire building and clearly the loss of the Dales does trouble him (though probably like everyone else he blames it on the Dales leadership). It is noticeable he doesn't even think to ask a human or Avaar Inquisitor how goes the Dales. I think if they knew of the Avaar threat and the fact that Ameridan had dealt with it at the time, then the modern Dalish might cut him a bit of slack if the news was given to them by a Dalish Inquisitor. Otherwise, I assume they probably would never even hear of it. Which is why being told that a Dalish clan has been continually claiming him as one of their own is odd without the connection to a Dalish Inquisitor. Why would they care what the humans say about him since the Dalish have a low opinion of human society and everything connected with the Chantry anyway? The idea that they would be looking for reparation from the human family who had been claiming him is also odd because one wonders how they would even know that, given how little interest the Dalish generally have in human affairs. After all, they know their greatest hero, Shartan, was wiped from history by the Chantry so why would they expect Ameridan to be any different?
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 19:17:32 GMT
I entirely agree that after centuries of resisting the oppression of the Chantry that the Dalish would not be remotely interested in accommodating the Maker promoted by the Chantry into their worship. Again, I would point out there is no acknowledgement by the writers that this is a valid point of view. Hence my comments about Cassandra and Solas. As we are heading to Tevinter, the attitude of the Dalish is not likely to feature much in the next game. However, I do wonder how they are going to deal with the issue of the Evanuris as presented in Trespasser and the impact on the Dalish. The epilogue screen at the end of the DLC shows elves rushing off to join Solas, including the one at the front clearly having vallaslin, and since they also have hair they are clearly not ancient elves. Whilst the Dalish might want their gods back, I question whether they would believe Fen'Harel, much less trust him. Still the fact that Mythal was murdered would give them pause. So they would learn that their lore was correct and Fen'Harel did indeed shut the gods away, but in fact they weren't really gods and kept slaves. How do you think they would respond to that? Well, the writers clearly have their own biases, which explains the double-standards in the depictions of the Dalish in comparison to how Andrastian humans are handled. The Dalish got some things right and some things wrong? The Story says the Dalish are wrong about everything. The Andrastians are entirely wrong about Andraste saving the protagonist and blessing the character with the Mark? Giselle jumps through mental gymnastics to explain how the Maker still saved you because the Story is Filled With Double-Standards. Bioware could really learn something from Bethesda when it comes to allowing factions to have their own flaws and strengths without obviously picking favorites. For all the flaws of Skyrim and Fallout 4, there's more complexity in choosing a group with an ideological faction that doesn't automatically turn the opposing side evil or have any group serve as one-dimensional caricatures to assuage your faction alignment decision. Side with Tullius or Ulfric, and neither leader becomes a monster or a raging lunatic to make your decision any easier. Side with the Eastern chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel or the clandestine Railroad, and you still have to make tough decisions to take down groups because their ideological stance is in opposition to yours. Heading to Tevinter and being limited to an Andrastian elf doesn't really appeal to me (Inquisition could have been interesting had the multiple races actually fleshed out their own distinct and unique cultural perspectives instead of the non-human protagonist serving as a reskinned Andrastian for most of the game). The Andrastian overload of Inquisition doesn't make the prospect of heading to another Andrastian nation interesting to me. It just feels so repetitive. I'm reminded of Morrowind and ESO, where we get to explore entirely different societies and cultures, and I have to wonder why Dragon Age only sticks with Andrastian human game after game after game. And the Evanuris likely serving as Corypheus-style one-dimensional villains with barely any amount of character development? I just don't see what's fascinating about that. The Dalish siding with Fen'Harel wouldn't make any sense if we were staying true to their actual history and characterization. The People's teachings are steep in Fen'Harel betraying people - even Felassan told stories about Fen'Harel tricking people and stabbing them in the back, and he was actually an ally of Fen'Harel (and we know what transpired to him). I don't see Merrill or most of the People siding with Fen'Harel. Given the historical teachings of the People about Fen'Harel, they would actually be the most likely group to oppose Fen'Harel. The most logical move for the story would be for the Inquisitor to establish the Dalish as an ally against Fen'Harel. How would the Dalish react to the revelation about the Creators (assuming what Fen'Harel said was true)? Merrill's lines about the Dalish not knowing who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones suggests that the People are already cognizant that their gods aren't perfect and are capable of wrongdoing (as does the story of Elgar'nan wrestling with the Sun and needing to be calmed down from his anger). Their own account of the fall of Arlathan is also cautioned as a 'legend' that may not be true, so it's not like they aren't aware that certain things may not be accurate. If the People were able to get a homeland to actually build towards a future - instead of simply surviving day to day as nomads and criminals due to the Chantry outlawing their religion - I'd like to see what the Dalish could become so they could properly deal with this. Perhaps a move towards becoming agnostic. Otherwise, what's the point of this 'reveal', aside from trying to dismantle the elven religion while being hands off with the existence of the Maker?
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Post by shechinah on Jan 7, 2017 20:06:29 GMT
Well, the writers clearly have their own biases, which explains the double-standards in the depictions of the Dalish in comparison to how Andrastian humans are handled. The Dalish got some things right and some things wrong? The Story says the Dalish are wrong about everything. The Andrastians are entirely wrong about Andraste saving the protagonist and blessing the character with the Mark? Giselle jumps through mental gymnastics to explain how the Maker still saved you because the Story is Filled With Double-Standards.
Or, you know, because Giselle is still of the belief that the Maker had a hand in saving the Inquisitor albeit now in a different way: "Those who looked to the Maker never asked for a literal hand to stretch out of the Fade to protect them. They wanted a sign that in this harsh and unforgiving world, there existed some reason to hope."
Giselle is a Revered Mother of the Chantry and believes in her faith with a very strong conviction. She interprets certain events as having differing degrees of divine intervention and meaning. She even demonstrates this long before the reveal in the Fade even takes place. Such interpretation has also been demonstrated previously in the Dragon Age series and at the moment, I can name two other Andrastian examples where characters disagrees with the interpretation:
Example: In Dragon Age 2, Grand Cleric Elthina considers the Maker to have acted through the Warden during the Blight regardless of which race or where the Warden came. Aveline thinks this is miscrediting and Hawke can express the same opinion but Elthina's opinion remains.
Example: Sebastian believes that the Maker might have helped Fenris during his time as a slave and escape while Fenris does not and says as much.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 20:16:31 GMT
Well, the writers clearly have their own biases, which explains the double-standards in the depictions of the Dalish in comparison to how Andrastian humans are handled. The Dalish got some things right and some things wrong? The Story says the Dalish are wrong about everything. The Andrastians are entirely wrong about Andraste saving the protagonist and blessing the character with the Mark? Giselle jumps through mental gymnastics to explain how the Maker still saved you because the Story is Filled With Double-Standards.
Or, you know, because Giselle is still of the belief that the Maker had a hand in saving the Inquisitor albeit now in a different way: "Those who looked to the Maker never asked for a literal hand to stretch out of the Fade to protect them. They wanted a sign that in this harsh and unforgiving world, there existed some reason to hope."
Giselle is a Revered Mother of the Chantry and believes in her faith with a very strong conviction. She interprets certain events as having differing degrees of divine intervention and meaning. She even demonstrates this long before the reveal in the Fade even takes place. Such interpretation has also been demonstrated previously in the Dragon Age series and at the moment, I can name two other Andrastian examples where characters disagrees with the interpretation:
Example: In Dragon Age 2, Grand Cleric Elthina considers the Maker to have acted through the Warden during the Blight regardless of which race or where the Warden came. Aveline thinks this is miscrediting and Hawke can express the same opinion but Elthina's opinion remains.
Example: Sebastian believes that the Maker might have helped Fenris during his time as a slave and escape while Fenris does not and says as much.
Despite the fact that the Chantry teaches that the Maker left and only the Chant being sung from the four corners of the world will be able to bring the Maker back, something you could criticize in Origins? I'm also not seeing how that contradicts anything I said when the narrative of the game is treating both groups entirely differently when it comes to being wrong to varying degrees.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2017 20:45:09 GMT
I have met Ameridan as both a human and a qunari Inquisitor and don't remember anything like that. And given Ameridan disappeared some fifteen years into the Second Blight, it's hard to see how he could consider such a thing possible. At the time, all of Thedas (including Orlais) was fighting for its very existence. ANd given Drakon's bff was, by the current Chantry's definition, an apostate and a heretic, I am willing to bet Drakon was a bit more complicated than "convert or die" Heck, we focus so much on the Chantry, I have to wonder how the modern Dalish would feel about Ameridan's stance regarding the Maker and Andraste? Ameridan doesn't seem too bothered with the prospect of Drakon conquering other lands. When seeing the Vashoth Inquisitor, he says: "Inquisitor. Drakon's empire has spread far while I slept." We all know Drakon created Orlais by launching Exalted Marches against his neighbors and conquering lands. In conversation with the human Inquisitor, he remarks: "How fares Drakon? Has he brought the Chant to the whole world yet?" It's clearly evident that Drakon wants to convert other lands to his Andrastian faith. How would modern Dalish feel about a Drakon lapdog? The People likely wouldn't see him in a very positive light. Yeah, Drakon conquered other lands. It's how one builds an empire. Particularly in Thedas's equivalent of a Dark Age. But as I said, we were fifteen years into a Blight, and everyone, including the Grey Wardens, were under siege. These responses simply sound like questions about what's been going on since he was gone. He seems to assume the group is a search party sent by his buddy Drakon. But a qunari? It will be centuries before they land on Thedas, to his mind he's wondering what the Inquisitor is and why he or she is with Drakon. And the response to a human soudns like a vague "How's Drakon been? Is hhis new church still going? So you're saying the Dalish would reject Ameridan just as the Orlesians whitewashed his problematic features
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2017 20:46:37 GMT
Example: Sebastian believes that the Maker might have helped Fenris during his time as a slave and escape while Fenris does not and says as much.
Heck Sebastian speculates to Merrill that the Maker and the Creators might be "the same divine force" known by different names. And he's the single most pious member of Hawke's party!
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Post by shechinah on Jan 7, 2017 20:52:55 GMT
Not completely related to the discussion but when I was typing "the maker" into Google, this came up before I could finish writing and I got completely distracted by it. i.ytimg.com/vi/YDXOioU_OKM/maxresdefault.jpgIt's apparently a stop motion animated film called "The Maker". I'll be honest, it looks rather interesting and right up my alley.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 21:06:09 GMT
Ameridan doesn't seem too bothered with the prospect of Drakon conquering other lands. When seeing the Vashoth Inquisitor, he says: "Inquisitor. Drakon's empire has spread far while I slept." We all know Drakon created Orlais by launching Exalted Marches against his neighbors and conquering lands. In conversation with the human Inquisitor, he remarks: "How fares Drakon? Has he brought the Chant to the whole world yet?" It's clearly evident that Drakon wants to convert other lands to his Andrastian faith. How would modern Dalish feel about a Drakon lapdog? The People likely wouldn't see him in a very positive light. Yeah, Drakon conquered other lands. It's how one builds an empire. Particularly in Thedas's equivalent of a Dark Age. But as I said, we were fifteen years into a Blight, and everyone, including the Grey Wardens, were under siege. These responses simply sound like questions about what's been going on since he was gone. He seems to assume the group is a search party sent by his buddy Drakon. But a qunari? It will be centuries before they land on Thedas, to his mind he's wondering what the Inquisitor is and why he or she is with Drakon. And the response to a human soudns like a vague "How's Drakon been? Is hhis new church still going? So you're saying the Dalish would reject Ameridan just as the Orlesians whitewashed his problematic features Ameridan's response to a Vasoth Inquisitor makes it clear that he thinks Drakon conquered new lands, and doesn't seem particularly displeased at the notion, and his response to a human is to wonder if Drakon continued spreading the religion that Drakon was imposing through force, conquest, and acts of mass murder (according to the Chantry - the institution he created). I'm sure the modern Dalish would reject Ameridan for supporting Drakon's forced conversions to the Andrastian faith and acts of conquest. As for Sebastian, at the camp for Clan Sabrae, he gives a companion line about seeing a lot of souls waiting to experience 'the Light' of the Chant (admittedly, it's hard to reconcile Sebastian's character because his characterization is all over the place with conflicting dialogue lines). I also think Merrill made a fair point in addressing that the Andrastian faith simply isn't the same as the religion of the Dalish. Acceptance doesn't mean assuming that people who are different than you worship the same thing as you, after all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2017 21:38:43 GMT
The whole oddity about Jaws of Hakkon and meeting Ameridan is that it throws out titbits of information and then leaves them hanging or makes statements that actually don't fit with the timeline. In the latter case, when Ameridan asks why his best friend didn't come looking for him, everyone tells him it is because of darkspawn pouring out of the Anderfels. Yet I have seen a human Inquisitor state to Ameridan that he went missing around the time the Nevarran Accord was signed that officially brought the Inquisition into the Chantry fold in 1:20. At this point, whilst the 2nd Blight was still going on, Drakon had beaten back a large force at Cumberland in 1:16, causing the main focus by the darkspawn to shift to Tevinter, even though there were other breakouts across Thedas, such as Montsimmard in 1:25. The darkspawn didn't start pouring out of the Anderfels again until 1:32-33. In 1:20 Drakon seemed wholly focussed on establishing the military wing of the Chantry. So knowing that his friend was engaged on such an important mission, why didn't he send out a search party?
Then there is an odd statement in the memories of Ameridan about Telana: "You should be at Halamshiral reminding our people of our ALLIANCE with Drakon? In all the previous histories of the Dales or the Dalish, there has never been any mention of an official alliance with Drakon or Orlais. Naturally if there were an official alliance and the Dalish had failed to live up to their end of the treaty, Orlesian resentment could be said to be understandable. So it would have been interesting to have a bit more information about this supposed alliance. Otherwise why phrase things in such an odd way? In the past there had been an alliance between Andraste and Shartan against a mutual enemy but why would Ameridan consider that Drakon should benefit from that?
It is also interesting to note that whilst Drakon is active up in the Anderfels, it is Hafter, the Alamarri warrior and Ferelden native, who unites the tribes against the darkspawn, then goes on to defeat a combined Chasind and Avaar army ten years later. Considering what a thorn the Avaar were in the side of the Ferelden lowlanders, it is surprising that Ameridan didn't look to the Alamarri to boost his forces in dealing with the Hakkonites. Then again, given Drakon had invaded Ferelden only around 20 years previously under the pretext of spreading the Chant, may be Ameridan knew he wouldn't get a very warm welcome there either.
To my mind, looking back on it, it would appear they were using the figure of Ameridan to try and introduce the idea that Drakon wasn't such a bad guy after all. They are using the fact that he is an elf and a mage to show this, plus his dualistic religious beliefs, which are praised by other people and then putting words in Ameridan's mouth to make the Dalish leadership appear totally responsible for the tragic history that followed. What with the altering of the 3 mage rule to make them appear stupid and heartless, the bigoted clan in Masked Empire that was being held up as "typical" Dalish and the complete rubbishing of the reputation of their gods, I really feel that they are setting up the Dalish to be the fall guys in the fight against Solas. I would like to think they are going to lead elven resistance against him but I fear that is not going to happen. The song "Mercy for the Elves" is very ominous, particularly where the Dalish are concerned: "Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight?"
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 22:59:13 GMT
The whole oddity about Jaws of Hakkon and meeting Ameridan is that it throws out titbits of information and then leaves them hanging or makes statements that actually don't fit with the timeline. In the latter case, when Ameridan asks why his best friend didn't come looking for him, everyone tells him it is because of darkspawn pouring out of the Anderfels. Yet I have seen a human Inquisitor state to Ameridan that he went missing around the time the Nevarran Accord was signed that officially brought the Inquisition into the Chantry fold in 1:20. At this point, whilst the 2nd Blight was still going on, Drakon had beaten back a large force at Cumberland in 1:16, causing the main focus by the darkspawn to shift to Tevinter, even though there were other breakouts across Thedas, such as Montsimmard in 1:25. The darkspawn didn't start pouring out of the Anderfels again until 1:32-33. In 1:20 Drakon seemed wholly focussed on establishing the military wing of the Chantry. So knowing that his friend was engaged on such an important mission, why didn't he send out a search party? Then there is an odd statement in the memories of Ameridan about Telana: "You should be at Halamshiral reminding our people of our ALLIANCE with Drakon? In all the previous histories of the Dales or the Dalish, there has never been any mention of an official alliance with Drakon or Orlais. Naturally if there were an official alliance and the Dalish had failed to live up to their end of the treaty, Orlesian resentment could be said to be understandable. So it would have been interesting to have a bit more information about this supposed alliance. Otherwise why phrase things in such an odd way? In the past there had been an alliance between Andraste and Shartan against a mutual enemy but why would Ameridan consider that Drakon should benefit from that? It is also interesting to note that whilst Drakon is active up in the Anderfels, it is Hafter, the Alamarri warrior and Ferelden native, who unites the tribes against the darkspawn, then goes on to defeat a combined Chasind and Avaar army ten years later. Considering what a thorn the Avaar were in the side of the Ferelden lowlanders, it is surprising that Ameridan didn't look to the Alamarri to boost his forces in dealing with the Hakkonites. Then again, given Drakon had invaded Ferelden only around 20 years previously under the pretext of spreading the Chant, may be Ameridan knew he wouldn't get a very warm welcome there either. To my mind, looking back on it, it would appear they were using the figure of Ameridan to try and introduce the idea that Drakon wasn't such a bad guy after all. They are using the fact that he is an elf and a mage to show this, plus his dualistic religious beliefs, which are praised by other people and then putting words in Ameridan's mouth to make the Dalish leadership appear totally responsible for the tragic history that followed. What with the altering of the 3 mage rule to make them appear stupid and heartless, the bigoted clan in Masked Empire that was being held up as "typical" Dalish and the complete rubbishing of the reputation of their gods, I really feel that they are setting up the Dalish to be the fall guys in the fight against Solas. I would like to think they are going to lead elven resistance against him but I fear that is not going to happen. The song "Mercy for the Elves" is very ominous, particularly where the Dalish are concerned: "Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight?" Yeah, I can see why certain folks simply decided not to stick with Dragon Age anymore; if you're a fan of the Dalish, there's not much incentive to stick around after TME and Inquisition tossed the People under the bus. The notion of an alliance between the Dales and Orlais also makes no sense with what was previously established, especially given the previous reference to the difficulties between Orlais and the Dales preventing Drakon from conquering the Free Marches: "Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned emperor of the new Orlesian Empire in Val Royeaux. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east."
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 8, 2017 11:03:41 GMT
I'm glad you made that quote because it makes a much more balanced view of history that ought to have been investigated. Drakon was empire building on the back of a religious crusade and it was the presence of the elves in the south and east that was preventing him from making further inroads. They were clearly taking seriously the injunction to Shartan by Andraste to ensure the freedom of all their respective people in the future. The people that Drakon was forcing to submit to his overlordship were the ones who had previously fought alongside them, the numerous human clans and tribes, and the Dalish did not approve of his actions. What they saw was the grandson of a noble of the Tevinter Imperium, trying to establish his own empire in the south and forcing everyone to adopt his religion, just as the Imperium had done previously. Is it any wonder they did not want to co-operate with him? This was all happening before the 2nd Blight even started. Then having previously not bothered with including the Canticle of Shartan in the Chant, suddenly in 1:8 the Divine asks for a translation of the Dalish oral tradition. Cynic that I am, I believe it was deliberately done to try and appease the Dalish because he needed their co-operation against the darkspawn that had emerged in 1:5. Apparently with some elves, like Ameridan, the ploy succeeded but the main leadership saw through it. Acknowledging the existence of Shartan does not amount to an alliance, nor the fact that the elves were given the Dales in gratitude for their assistance in her crusade imply any ongoing obligation on the part of the Dalish towards a nation, Orlais, that didn't even exist at that time or its Emperor.
This is the other side to the argument that is totally missing from Jaws of Hakkon or DAI (Red Crossing) for that matter. Everything comes from a pro-Chantry, pro-Drakon perspective, even the Dalish character of Ameridan. The only time there is a suggestion of another viewpoint is in the codex that we find in the mansion in the Emerald Graves, which you could easily miss considering it is not even an essential part of the main plot.
What we needed but didn't get was a sympathetic Dalish character other than the PC, who was absolutely knowledgeable about their history and culture, to counter the anti-Dalish slant of Solas, Sera and every pro-Chantry character in the game. However, we didn't get that in Masked Empire either, so I doubt we are going to get one in the future considering the writer of that novel is also now lead writer. Failing that, how about an ancient elven character who is not a supporter of either Solas or Mythal, to give the other side of the argument for the Evanuris? To be honest, I'm not holding my breath on that one either.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 8, 2017 15:01:19 GMT
Then having previously not bothered with including the Canticle of Shartan in the Chant, suddenly in 1:8 the Divine asks for a translation of the Dalish oral tradition. Cynic that I am, I believe it was deliberately done to try and appease the Dalish because he needed their co-operation against the darkspawn that had emerged in 1:5. Apparently with some elves, like Ameridan, the ploy succeeded but the main leadership saw through it. That's probably accurate as to why they started including Shartan, but I object a bit to the characterization of elves like Ameridan being "taken in". In part because I doubt a cult of the Maker/Andraste was altogether foreign in the Dales. I'm not suggesting elves like Ameridan were common, but I find it likely that some elves were inspired by her in much the same way her human followers were. Whatever beliefs they may have held would probably have been heretical to Drakon's Chantry, no doubt, and I doubt they were favored by most of the mage ruled noble families the Dalish are descended from. My own cynical side suspects those nobles' opposition to any kind of Chantry presence in the Dales is as much out of a desire to preserve their power and place in the Dalish magocratic religion as defending their culture. I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think elves generally adopted Andrastian beliefs because of the Chantry inclusion of Shartan at that time. Though regarding Ameridan specifically, it's worth noting that he acknowledged what Drakon wanted, to have everyone follow a single faith, he just believed he could change his mind. And who knows, maybe Drakon did have doubts about his course, Ameridan's the only source we have that actually knew the guy, but I don't think revising his religious stance was foremost in his priorities as he spent the rest of his life fighting the Second Blight. And it's worth thinking about the Inquisition, the fact that a syncretic religious elven mage was leading it and apparently it's membership (Which I imagine must have been primarily human) was okay with it, suggesting a greater tolerance for varied interpretations of the faith than the 'Andrastian hardliners' reputation would suggest. With the Inquisition joining the Chantry and the personal friendship between Ameridan and Drakon, it must have seemed that a more tolerant institution was a very real possibility at the time.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 8, 2017 20:29:09 GMT
In the past I felt that probably the mages in charge of the Dales didn't like the challenge to their power presented by the Chantry. However, there is no evidence that the nobles of the Dales were exclusively mages. The Keepers in the Dales were the spiritual leaders but not the political ones. They only assumed this dual role after most of the political leaders had likely died in the war. In fact the majority of the leadership was likely non-mages because it would take time for mage children to start coming through in the families once they were established there.
I doubt very much that elves would have adopted the Chantry religion simply because of the inclusion of Shartan. What I was suggesting is that Drakon included the Canticle in order to suggest that he respected the hero who won them their homeland and possibly also to suggest that he wanted a similar understanding with them that Shartan had with Andraste.
Clearly the fact that there was such a strong oral tradition about Shartan and the way Andraste viewed him, would suggest there were elves in the Dales who likely did honour the Maker along with their own gods because in much of the early material in the Chant, he is called the Wellspring of Creation/All from which everything else descended and the Dalish acknowledge they do not know the origin of the world. There is another part of the Chant (Trials 1) where the Fade is referred to as the Beyond. This clearly shows an elven influence because that is what they call the Fade. Many scholars believe that this part of the Chant has verses that pre-date Andraste by a hundred years or more and were possibly originally prayers to gods of local pantheons that were altered when they joined her uprising. Strangely enough these lines about the Beyond even read as though they could equally be about Falon'Din:
"Though all before me is shadow, yet the Maker/Falon'Din be my guide, I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond."
What they didn't do, though, based on the Canticle of Shartan, was regard Andraste as semi-Divine as Ameridan appeared to do. The Dalish have always insisted she was simply a human prophet (as in fact do Tevinter), however they regard the Maker. That aspect of her as the Maker Bride is something that Ameridan could only have got from the religion of the people outside the Dales and Drakon in particular.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 8, 2017 20:49:57 GMT
Not everyone who takes up a different religion was forced into it. I guarantee that there have always been Maker-worshipping converts (whatever it was called before it was "Andrastianism") since the elves first started hearing of those ideas. There are always people who seek something different, who need different answers than what their current faith provides. Will these self-converts be the majority? No, but they will have existed in small pockets here and there.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 8, 2017 21:24:49 GMT
Then having previously not bothered with including the Canticle of Shartan in the Chant, suddenly in 1:8 the Divine asks for a translation of the Dalish oral tradition. Cynic that I am, I believe it was deliberately done to try and appease the Dalish because he needed their co-operation against the darkspawn that had emerged in 1:5. Apparently with some elves, like Ameridan, the ploy succeeded but the main leadership saw through it. That's probably accurate as to why they started including Shartan, but I object a bit to the characterization of elves like Ameridan being "taken in". In part because I doubt a cult of the Maker/Andraste was altogether foreign in the Dales. I'm not suggesting elves like Ameridan were common, but I find it likely that some elves were inspired by her in much the same way her human followers were. I'm sure it wasn't foreign in the sense that elves under Shartan's command fought alongside humans against the Imperium, but suggesting that elves followed the religion simply because it existed is the same as saying that some humans were inspired by Shartan's example and followed the elven pantheon.
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