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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 8, 2017 21:56:22 GMT
^ The difference there is that it's less likely that humans will be exposed to those ideas of the elven Pantheon, and have a friendly elf explain them, than the opposite.
Also, I'd suggest that the ideas surrounding the Maker are more simple and easier to "get" for a new person than the elven pantheon, with its numerous gods and stories. IMO it's easier to explain Judaism than the religions of the Egyptians, the Norse, or the Greeks and Romans. You have all these individuals who have their own stories, some of them have interlocking stories, and so on. A monotheistic religion has the one being who did/does everything. The Jews have their own heroes, to be sure, and their own drama and excitement, but it still falls to the one being.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 8, 2017 22:01:41 GMT
That's probably accurate as to why they started including Shartan, but I object a bit to the characterization of elves like Ameridan being "taken in". In part because I doubt a cult of the Maker/Andraste was altogether foreign in the Dales. I'm not suggesting elves like Ameridan were common, but I find it likely that some elves were inspired by her in much the same way her human followers were. I'm sure it wasn't foreign in the sense that elves under Shartan's command fought alongside humans against the Imperium, but suggesting that elves followed the religion simply because it existed is the same as saying that some humans were inspired by Shartan's example and followed the elven pantheon. It didn't just exist, it was the faith promoted by Andraste, a fellow slave of Tevinter who waged war successfully on their common oppressor, the Imperium. The faith itself, prior to the enmity towards elves engendered in the Chantry, was not human specific in the way it became. It seems absurd to me that after all that time enslaved, all elves were such purists dedicated to their half forgotten pantheon that no other faith could, especially one so closely connected to their liberation and new homeland, have an appeal to some. By contrast, the elven pantheon is unambiguously elf specific and Shartan is not tied to them in any similar way. I don't recall any indication that Shartan fought as a champion of the elven gods. I would find it far less likely that humans would convert to follow gods that by definition have no interest in them. I'm not suggesting the elves were worshipping the Maker en masse, but even the modern Dalish show respect for Andraste. It seems likely to me that, in a time of less fraught relations between humans and elves away from the strict interpretation of the Chantry, some elves took it further.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 8, 2017 22:07:07 GMT
I'm sure it wasn't foreign in the sense that elves under Shartan's command fought alongside humans against the Imperium, but suggesting that elves followed the religion simply because it existed is the same as saying that some humans were inspired by Shartan's example and followed the elven pantheon. It didn't just exist, it was the faith promoted by Andraste, a fellow slave of Tevinter who waged war successfully on their common oppressor, the Imperium. The faith itself, prior to the enmity towards elves engendered in the Chantry, was not human specific in the way it became. It seems absurd to me that after all that time enslaved, all elves were such purists dedicated to their half forgotten pantheon that no other faith could, especially one so closely connected to their liberation and new homeland, have an appeal to some. By contrast, the elven pantheon is unambiguously elf specific and Shartan is not tied to them in any similar way. I don't recall any indication that Shartan fought as a champion of the elven gods. I would find it far less likely that humans would convert to follow gods that by definition have no interest in them. I'm not suggesting the elves were worshipping the Maker en masse, but even the modern Dalish show respect for Andraste. It seems likely to me that, in a time of less fraught relations between humans and elves away from the strict interpretation of the Chantry, some elves took it further. It's human specific in the sense that it's a human religion; it originated with humans, and it's followed by humans. We also know from Gaider that elves still passed down their knowledge despite their enslavement by the Imperium; it's how the elves were able to use their magical knowledge from the days of Arlathan to help create the Joining Ritual and co-create the Grey Warden Order. It's not as if all the knowledge they ever possessed about the past was lost. I'm not sure how suggesting that the elves followed the Maker makes any more sense than humans following the elven gods. Either way, it's a matter of a group of people following a foreign god of another people. Even the Chantry never claims that the elves of the era followed the Maker.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 8, 2017 22:51:31 GMT
It didn't just exist, it was the faith promoted by Andraste, a fellow slave of Tevinter who waged war successfully on their common oppressor, the Imperium. The faith itself, prior to the enmity towards elves engendered in the Chantry, was not human specific in the way it became. It seems absurd to me that after all that time enslaved, all elves were such purists dedicated to their half forgotten pantheon that no other faith could, especially one so closely connected to their liberation and new homeland, have an appeal to some. By contrast, the elven pantheon is unambiguously elf specific and Shartan is not tied to them in any similar way. I don't recall any indication that Shartan fought as a champion of the elven gods. I would find it far less likely that humans would convert to follow gods that by definition have no interest in them. I'm not suggesting the elves were worshipping the Maker en masse, but even the modern Dalish show respect for Andraste. It seems likely to me that, in a time of less fraught relations between humans and elves away from the strict interpretation of the Chantry, some elves took it further. It's human specific in the sense that it's a human religion; it originated with humans, and it's followed by humans. We also know from Gaider that elves still passed down their knowledge despite their enslavement by the Imperium; it's how the elves were able to use their magical knowledge from the days of Arlathan to help create the Joining Ritual and co-create the Grey Warden Order. It's not as if all the knowledge they ever possessed about the past was lost. I'm not sure how suggesting that the elves followed the Maker makes any more sense than humans following the elven gods. Either way, it's a matter of a group of people following a foreign god of another people. Even the Chantry never claims that the elves of the era followed the Maker. You seem kinda hung up on this notion that elves wouldn't want to follow the Maker because humans follow him that I really disagree with. The elves don't necessarily have a grudge against all humanity and anything with a human origin. It was Tevinter that went to war with the elves and destroyed Arlathan. The Alamarri had done nothing to the elves and suffered at Tevinter's hands as well. I see no reason why some elves couldn't find an appeal to a god that purports to be for everyone, not just some people. The Maker is a universal deity in Andrastian theology, in contrast to the elven gods specifically being the gods of The People, the elves. There is literally no room for humans in the elven faith. And to be clear again, I am in no way suggesting that this was common.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 8, 2017 22:54:45 GMT
^ The difference there is that it's less likely that humans will be exposed to those ideas of the elven Pantheon, and have a friendly elf explain them, than the opposite. Also, I'd suggest that the ideas surrounding the Maker are more simple and easier to "get" for a new person than the elven pantheon, with its numerous gods and stories. IMO it's easier to explain Judaism than the religions of the Egyptians, the Norse, or the Greeks and Romans. You have all these individuals who have their own stories, some of them have interlocking stories, and so on. A monotheistic religion has the one being who did/does everything. The Jews have their own heroes, to be sure, and their own drama and excitement, but it still falls to the one being. Elves and humans fought alongside one another against the Imperium, so I'm sure the two groups conversed more than once or twice with one another in a relatively benign manner as comrades in arms against a greater foe than themselves; that doesn't mean they elected to give up their own religion and followed the faith of the other group. While it may be easier for someone who has grown up with a monotheist religion to understand a similar monotheistic faith, I'd suggest it's easier for the elves to understand the faith they've grown up with - one that speaks to them specifically and resonates with them, to the point where it was their religion when they established the Dales - than with an entirely foreign religion that is inherently human. After all, the Cult of the Maker clearly wasn't as simple as 'there is one god' any more than the elven faith was simply 'there are many gods'. The elves also made the choice to follow their own gods in the Dales instead of following the religion of Andraste. If the idea is that elves may have been influenced by Andraste to follow the Maker, then the same line of thought would also apply to humans who may have been influenced by Shartan. If the thought is that humans wouldn't follow the elven pantheon, then I don't see why it's assumed that elves would follow the Maker. The same issues exist with both notions, after all.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 15, 2017 1:21:18 GMT
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 15, 2017 2:45:02 GMT
While that is a recorded instance of a Dalish "converting" to Andrastianism, that is a really particular circumstance because he did it for the human woman he was in love with.
Consider his own words:
I'd argue that his was not a true conversion, but only something he thought to do to appease the other humans so he could be with the one he loved.
The same thing can happen these days. If there is a couple of differing faiths, or one person does not share the faith of the other, one half may still agree to be married under the faith of the other just to make their partner happy.
I'm an atheist, but not militant about it. If I were going to marry someone of a particular faith, and it was important to him that we do it in that manner, I'd go along with it for him. It makes no difference to me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2017 9:46:07 GMT
What people keep saying is that it has to be an either/or situation at the time when the elves fought alongside the Alamaari. Forget what is in the Chant; we have no way of knowing if that was really what Andraste taught or what Drakon promoted having altered the text. Also ignore the situation at the time of Red Crossing. The Chantry had been in existence for over 100 years then and all variations on the faith in the Maker among the humans had been wiped out by Drakon.
The Alamaari worshipped a pantheon of many gods, several of which seem very similar to those of the elves but with different names. Even their legends concerning their gods have similarities with those of the elves, suggesting that some stories may refer back to the time when the humans first arrived in Thedas, when there is evidence they did have interaction with the elves and so may have appropriated some of their gods into their own pantheon. After Andraste was killed the Alamaari and Ciraine tribes did not convert to monotheistic worship en mass. In fact they would appear to have just incorporated the Maker into their own pantheon. The way they likely saw it was that the Maker was the specific patron god of Andraste and her clan, just as Hakkon was with the Hakkonites. WoT2 definitely confirms that each clan had its own version of the cult of Andraste, its own rituals, traditions and versions of what she said. This was the situation right up until Drakon decided to "simplify" things. The insistence that there is only one god, fits very well with the idea of one empire rather than many tribes, and one state Church to which everyone should belong.
So what was true of the human barbarians who were part of Andraste's crusade could equally be the case with at least some of the elves living in the Dales. If the Alamaari could accommodate the Maker into their existing pantheon, why could the elves not have done so too? They were not worshipping the Maker of the Chantry, who insists there is only one god and all other gods are false. They were honouring the patron god of their ally, along with their own pantheon, who according to quotes that we do find in the Chant, was regarded as the Wellspring of Creation. It did not contradict any of their own beliefs about the origins of the world and indeed fitted in with them, since the Dalish teach that Elgar'nan and Mythal, the eldest of their two gods, were born of the world, they did not create it, only the subsequent "world of the elves" or in other words the elven civilisation.
The fact that some of the oldest parts of the Chant have references to the "Beyond" suggest that there were elves who were co-worshipping the Maker with the barbarians and contributed to their version of Andraste's words. The Beyond is a specifically elven term for the Fade. The fact that even at the time of Red Crossing the elves could equate Falon'Din and the Maker with regard to making a safe journey through the Fade, suggests that even then the elves were aware of the human hymns on such matters and how similar they were to their own. So my quote from the Chant that I gave above and how it could so easily have been originally a hymn to Falon'Din, seems reasonable. It is just conceivably possible that at the time of Andraste/Shartan they viewed their followers viewed it the same way, so they recited the same words but adjusted the deity to suit their own beliefs. I will repeat it:
"Though all before me is shadow, yet shall the Maker/Falon'Din be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond."
I would also refer back to the Canticle of Shartan, which contains ideas so at odds with the teaching of the Chantry that it could only have come from elves who followed a tradition that dated back to the time of Andraste/Shartan. There is no mention of Andraste being a bride of the Maker and superior to everyone else in his eyes. Instead she is meant to have said to Shartan: "Truly the Maker has called you, just as he called me, to be a light for your People." This makes Shartan the equal of Andraste in the eyes of the Maker. He was the prophet to the elves, just as Andraste was prophet to the barbarians. They are not semi-divine, they are simply called to be a beacon of hope to their oppressed people and lead them to freedom. The is confirmed in the gift that Andraste gives to Shartan after he and his elves save her from certain defeat. She gives him the sword Glandivalis, which means either "Believer" or more likely "Blade of the Faith", a title later appropriated by Drakon. She hands it to him with the words "Take this, my champion, and free our people forever". Notice there is no injuction to spread the Chant or praise the Maker. He is to ensure the freedom of their respective peoples, both elves and humans. In that way he will be honouring the Maker because that is what he has been called to do. Whatever may have happened subsequently, as a result of Drakon perverting the faith, that is what the elves of the Dales believed in the period between the death of Shartan (trying to save Andraste from the flames) and the rise of the Empire of Orlais. What it doesn't say is that those elves worshipped the Maker exclusively or that faith in their own pantheon and in the Maker was incompatible.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 15, 2017 15:49:22 GMT
It's human specific in the sense that it's a human religion; it originated with humans, and it's followed by humans. We also know from Gaider that elves still passed down their knowledge despite their enslavement by the Imperium; it's how the elves were able to use their magical knowledge from the days of Arlathan to help create the Joining Ritual and co-create the Grey Warden Order. It's not as if all the knowledge they ever possessed about the past was lost. I'm not sure how suggesting that the elves followed the Maker makes any more sense than humans following the elven gods. Either way, it's a matter of a group of people following a foreign god of another people. Even the Chantry never claims that the elves of the era followed the Maker. You seem kinda hung up on this notion that elves wouldn't want to follow the Maker because humans follow him that I really disagree with. The elves don't necessarily have a grudge against all humanity and anything with a human origin. It was Tevinter that went to war with the elves and destroyed Arlathan. The Alamarri had done nothing to the elves and suffered at Tevinter's hands as well. I see no reason why some elves couldn't find an appeal to a god that purports to be for everyone, not just some people. The Maker is a universal deity in Andrastian theology, in contrast to the elven gods specifically being the gods of The People, the elves. There is literally no room for humans in the elven faith. And to be clear again, I am in no way suggesting that this was common. I think there's a misunderstanding here; it has nothing to do with a grudge. I'm pointing out that elves have as much incentive to follow the Maker as humans would to follow the Creators. In fact, you seem to think it's unlikely that humans would follow the Creators for pretty much the same reasons I've said that I think it's unlikely for the elves to follow the Maker. Also, the concept of the Maker doesn't purport to be "for everyone" (for example, he had nothing to do with the creation of the dwarves), which is why I pointed out this is an issue of elves converting to follow a human god. The Chantry wanting to bring everyone under the worship of the Maker - and, as the Warden can point out in Lothering, that also includes putting everyone under their control - doesn't make the Maker a universal deity.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 15, 2017 17:39:01 GMT
I think there's a misunderstanding here; it has nothing to do with a grudge. I'm pointing out that elves have as much incentive to follow the Maker as humans would to follow the Creators. In fact, you seem to think it's unlikely that humans would follow the Creators for pretty much the same reasons I've said that I think it's unlikely for the elves to follow the Maker. Also, the concept of the Maker doesn't purport to be "for everyone" (for example, he had nothing to do with the creation of the dwarves), which is why I pointed out this is an issue of elves converting to follow a human god. The Chantry wanting to bring everyone under the worship of the Maker - and, as the Warden can point out in Lothering, that also includes putting everyone under their control - doesn't make the Maker a universal deity. This is a complete false equivalency. Shartan and Andraste are not equivalent figures in this regard. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever that Shartan's rebellion had any religious dimension let alone that he fought as a prophet or champion of the elven gods. The Dalish today don't treat him as a religious figure either. In fact, the only reference to Shartan as a religious figure is in the Andrastian Canticle of Shartan, where Andraste calls the two of them equals in the eyes of the Maker (This is the sort of religious perspective I might expect from an elven cult of the Maker). Andraste was explicitly a prophet fighting a holy war. Religion is an indispensable part of her fight. You're right, the Maker doesn't say anything about creating dwarves (Yet that did not stop some dwarves from taking up his worship). The Chant mostly doesn't specify creating humans or elves either, what does it matter? The Andrastian faith has room for and accommodates worship from anyone. The Maker is a universal deity in that sense. It is not human specific in the way that the elven faith is explicitly elf specific. The stories of their pantheon specifically spell out that they are the gods of the People and nobody else. It is not a proselytizing faith. So you see humans would have no reason to connect Shartan to the elven faith and would not be compatible with that faith even if they did. Whereas Andraste is explicitly linked to the Maker and offered a faith that can easily accommodate elves. And please remember that we're not talking about the Chantry here, we're talking about the generalized Andrastian faith, including interpretations the Chantry would find heretical.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 15, 2017 19:09:26 GMT
I think there's a misunderstanding here; it has nothing to do with a grudge. I'm pointing out that elves have as much incentive to follow the Maker as humans would to follow the Creators. In fact, you seem to think it's unlikely that humans would follow the Creators for pretty much the same reasons I've said that I think it's unlikely for the elves to follow the Maker. Also, the concept of the Maker doesn't purport to be "for everyone" (for example, he had nothing to do with the creation of the dwarves), which is why I pointed out this is an issue of elves converting to follow a human god. The Chantry wanting to bring everyone under the worship of the Maker - and, as the Warden can point out in Lothering, that also includes putting everyone under their control - doesn't make the Maker a universal deity. This is a complete false equivalency. Shartan and Andraste are not equivalent figures in this regard. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever that Shartan's rebellion had any religious dimension let alone that he fought as a prophet or champion of the elven gods. I never claimed Shartan was a religious leader, and I'm not seeing where you're getting the notion that I'm arguing any such thing. Considering that the elves who established the kingdom of the Dales followed the elven pantheon, I think one can safely address that it's unlikely they were atheists or agnostics if they re-established their religion formally after creating their own autonomous kingdom. Considering that Gaider already addressed that elven slaves passed down their knowledge, and elven descendants of Arlathan were able to utilize knowledge from that time to help create the Grey Warden Order and the Joining Ritual, it's not as though all the information from the past was lost. The Dalish today don't treat him as a religious figure either. In fact, the only reference to Shartan as a religious figure is in the Andrastian Canticle of Shartan, where Andraste calls the two of them equals in the eyes of the Maker (This is the sort of religious perspective I might expect from an elven cult of the Maker). Andraste was explicitly a prophet fighting a holy war. Religion is an indispensable part of her fight. And Andraste is regarded simply as a 'war leader' in the histories of the Dalish, not as a divine figure. The Dalish histories addressed her as someone who, like Shartan, wanted to topple the slave regime of the Imperium. You're right, the Maker doesn't say anything about creating dwarves (Yet that did not stop some dwarves from taking up his worship). The Chant mostly doesn't specify creating humans or elves either, what does it matter? The Andrastian faith has room for and accommodates worship from anyone. The Maker is a universal deity in that sense. It is not human specific in the way that the elven faith is explicitly elf specific. The stories of their pantheon specifically spell out that they are the gods of the People and nobody else. It is not a proselytizing faith. While the Andrastian faith teaches that non-humans are "further" from the Maker than humans are, which doesn't come across as a universal faith in the slightest. And considering that elves were raised with their own religion, that simply makes it all the more absurd to argue that they have every reason to abandon their religion in favor of the Andrastian faith when the Dales was established and the elves followed their own elven pantheon as the national religion. It literally took conquering the Dales and outlawing the elven faith in order to forcibly convert the elven populace to the Andrastian faith. So you see humans would have no reason to connect Shartan to the elven faith and would not be compatible with that faith even if they did. Whereas Andraste is explicitly linked to the Maker and offered a faith that can easily accommodate elves. Elves have as much reason to turn to a foreign leader and their foreign god as humans would, which is the entire problem with your line of thought because you act like this human-centric religion isn't actually human-centric, even though it clearly is considering it's inception among humans and the role humans play as the Children of the Maker. And please remember that we're not talking about the Chantry here, we're talking about the generalized Andrastian faith, including interpretations the Chantry would find heretical. The problem with that is there was no generalized Andrastian faith. There were many Cults of the Maker.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 16, 2017 23:16:48 GMT
What people keep saying is that it has to be an either/or situation at the time when the elves fought alongside the Alamaari. Forget what is in the Chant; we have no way of knowing if that was really what Andraste taught or what Drakon promoted having altered the text. Also ignore the situation at the time of Red Crossing. The Chantry had been in existence for over 100 years then and all variations on the faith in the Maker among the humans had been wiped out by Drakon. The Alamaari worshipped a pantheon of many gods, several of which seem very similar to those of the elves but with different names. Even their legends concerning their gods have similarities with those of the elves, suggesting that some stories may refer back to the time when the humans first arrived in Thedas, when there is evidence they did have interaction with the elves and so may have appropriated some of their gods into their own pantheon. Respectfully, I'd say that the Avvar faith is different enough from the Dalish, including the depiction of their gods (who, according to their religion, interacted with the world before Inquisition decided to make them 'spirits'). After Andraste was killed the Alamaari and Ciraine tribes did not convert to monotheistic worship en mass. In fact they would appear to have just incorporated the Maker into their own pantheon. The way they likely saw it was that the Maker was the specific patron god of Andraste and her clan, just as Hakkon was with the Hakkonites. Considering that Andraste was Alammari, that's not really surprising. WoT2 definitely confirms that each clan had its own version of the cult of Andraste, its own rituals, traditions and versions of what she said. This was the situation right up until Drakon decided to "simplify" things. The insistence that there is only one god, fits very well with the idea of one empire rather than many tribes, and one state Church to which everyone should belong. So what was true of the human barbarians who were part of Andraste's crusade could equally be the case with at least some of the elves living in the Dales. Except you're comparing the Alammari incorporating one of their own into their faith with the elves incorporating a human's god into their faith. That's a significant difference between the two. If the Alamaari could accommodate the Maker into their existing pantheon, why could the elves not have done so too? Probably for the same reason why the humans who followed Andraste didn't adopt the worship of the Creators. Each respective group had their own religion. They were not worshipping the Maker of the Chantry, who insists there is only one god and all other gods are false. They were honouring the patron god of their ally, along with their own pantheon, who according to quotes that we do find in the Chant, was regarded as the Wellspring of Creation. It did not contradict any of their own beliefs about the origins of the world and indeed fitted in with them, since the Dalish teach that Elgar'nan and Mythal, the eldest of their two gods, were born of the world, they did not create it, only the subsequent "world of the elves" or in other words the elven civilisation. In The World of Thedas, vol. 2, page 18, there's reference to Andraste viewing a non-Maker faith as "heresy". The fact that some of the oldest parts of the Chant have references to the "Beyond" suggest that there were elves who were co-worshipping the Maker with the barbarians and contributed to their version of Andraste's words. Or it simply suggests that elven terminology was used, which isn't surprising considering that Thedas was once Elvhenan. The Beyond is a specifically elven term for the Fade. The fact that even at the time of Red Crossing the elves could equate Falon'Din and the Maker with regard to making a safe journey through the Fade, suggests that even then the elves were aware of the human hymns on such matters and how similar they were to their own. I don't think a rather vague remark suggests the kind of insight into the Andrastian faith that you're suggesting. So my quote from the Chant that I gave above and how it could so easily have been originally a hymn to Falon'Din, seems reasonable. It is just conceivably possible that at the time of Andraste/Shartan they viewed their followers viewed it the same way, so they recited the same words but adjusted the deity to suit their own beliefs. I will repeat it: "Though all before me is shadow, yet shall the Maker/Falon'Din be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." I would also refer back to the Canticle of Shartan, which contains ideas so at odds with the teaching of the Chantry that it could only have come from elves who followed a tradition that dated back to the time of Andraste/Shartan. There is no mention of Andraste being a bride of the Maker and superior to everyone else in his eyes. Instead she is meant to have said to Shartan: "Truly the Maker has called you, just as he called me, to be a light for your People." I'd say it's at odds with Chantry teachings because Shartan doesn't seem to adopt the faith of the Maker and is fairly neutral about it, given his response: When the tale was finished, Andraste said to Shartan: "Truly, the Maker has called you, just as He called me, To be a Light for your People. The host you see before you march, Bearing His will north, where we shall deliver it To Minrathous city of magisters, and we shall tear down The unassailable gates, and set all slaves free."
And Shartan looked upon the Prophet Andraste And said: "The People will set ourselves free. Your host from the South may march Alongside us." Andraste also uses religious connotations for her war with the Imperium. This makes Shartan the equal of Andraste in the eyes of the Maker. He was the prophet to the elves, just as Andraste was prophet to the barbarians. The same way Cassandra, Josephine, and other Andrastians can regard a Dalish elf as the 'Herald of Andraste' even when he points out that he follows his own gods, not the Maker. Yeah, I feel for Shartan. They are not semi-divine, they are simply called to be a beacon of hope to their oppressed people and lead them to freedom. The is confirmed in the gift that Andraste gives to Shartan after he and his elves save her from certain defeat. She gives him the sword Glandivalis, which means either "Believer" or more likely "Blade of the Faith", a title later appropriated by Drakon. She hands it to him with the words "Take this, my champion, and free our people forever". Notice there is no injuction to spread the Chant or praise the Maker. Except when Andraste says she's going to bring "His will" to Tevinter to "deliver it", so it's not as if she's separating what she's doing with her religious beliefs (unless you adhere to Celene's interpretation of Andraste, who suspects Andraste's faith was entirely political, or possibly even an elven protagonist who can tell Velanna that he or she believes Andraste simply used their elven ancestors for her own ends). He is to ensure the freedom of their respective peoples, both elves and humans. In that way he will be honouring the Maker because that is what he has been called to do. Whatever may have happened subsequently, as a result of Drakon perverting the faith, that is what the elves of the Dales believed in the period between the death of Shartan (trying to save Andraste from the flames) and the rise of the Empire of Orlais. What it doesn't say is that those elves worshipped the Maker exclusively or that faith in their own pantheon and in the Maker was incompatible. Had the elves believed in the Maker, they would have incorporated the Maker into their belief system when they established the Dales. Given that the People didn't, I don't see why you think they believed in the human god. Shartan and Andraste were allies, but that doesn't mean the elves adopted the Maker; I have friends who are Jewish and Muslim, but that doesn't mean that I'm inclined to adopt their faith - or elements of their religious beliefs - into what I believe. Furthermore, considering everything all the trials and tribulations that the Dalish faced to maintain their autonomy and independence from the Chantry and the attempts to coerce them into adopting the Andrastian faith, putting the Dalish elves into a narrative position to adopt the Maker would make all those sacrifices meaningless.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2017 20:31:46 GMT
Adopting the Maker as he is presented now would be a problem, because the Maker now is wholly associated with the Chantry and their interpretation of him. Which is why a Dalish today would be unlikely to adopt the Maker, certainly not by that name, because it has wholly negative connotations. The primary dogma of the modern Chantry is that "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world". Naturally no Dalish would ever agree with this and neither would Shartan have done, even though he was not a mage himself. The Dalish believe that all their ancestors were magical, so magic is not at fault, only the people who misuse it. Which oddly enough is exactly what Andraste taught "Foul and corrupt are they who have taken his GIFT and used it against his children". To both Andraste and the Dalish magic was a gift of the god(s), but the Chantry perverted that teaching.
What I was talking about was the situation at the time of Shartan. The Canticle of Shartan came from an elvish oral tradition. There was no tradition concerning him among Drakon and his ilk but then suddenly (probably from political expediency) the Divine decided they ought to include him. In order to do so they had to consult with the Dalish elves and they were the source of the Canticle. The way it describes Andraste and how she viewed Shartan is so at variance with the way she is presented by the Chantry in their dogma that it would seem the majority of the text is authentic elven belief. Those words "bearing his will north, where we shall deliver it" tie in with the subsequent line "tear down the unassailable gates and set all slaves free". That is the "will of the Maker" that they are delivering: Freedom for the slaves. They then proceed to the battle of the Valarian Fields and once again the great hymn that rose over the Valarian Fields is not one of praise for the Maker but "Those who had been slaves were now free". Always the emphasis is on freedom, just as it has continued to be down to the present day with the Dalish.
That is why I say that Shartan might well have been prepared to honour the god who promoted freedom for all slaves and the elves who followed him might well have done so as well. That is what they claim that Andraste recognised in Shartan, a fellow freedom fighter called to that role by the God of Freedom. That is why I say that Drakon perverted the religion into one of subjugation, forcing everyone to follow his version of the faith and why naturally the Dalish would refuse to honour his version of the Maker and regard Drakon as no better than their previous overlords in Tevinter.
If you prefer, what I am arguing for is Shartanism among the Dalish of his time. He was never a disciple of Andraste because that would suggest a subordinate role. They were equal figures in the eyes of the elves and of course to this day (at least as far as DAO) the Dalish still honoured Andraste as the human prophet who called Shartan "brother" (WoT2) but not as the Chantry regard that term; they were kinsmen in the same cause. The Dalish believe that Andraste gave Shartan her own sword (something very significant to any warrior people) that had an elvish name "Glandivalis" (I'm going with Blade of the Faith for its meaning) and the faith that he was to defend with it was the freedom of both their sets of people. For a Dalish to adhere to that belief would in no way render the sacrifices of their people meaningless because the reason they have suffered is that they refuse to surrender their freedom, whether that be of lifestyle, customs or worship.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 17, 2017 23:41:35 GMT
Adopting the Maker as he is presented now would be a problem, because the Maker now is wholly associated with the Chantry and their interpretation of him. Which is why a Dalish today would be unlikely to adopt the Maker, certainly not by that name, because it has wholly negative connotations. The primary dogma of the modern Chantry is that "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world". Naturally no Dalish would ever agree with this and neither would Shartan have done, even though he was not a mage himself. The Dalish believe that all their ancestors were magical, so magic is not at fault, only the people who misuse it. Which oddly enough is exactly what Andraste taught "Foul and corrupt are they who have taken his GIFT and used it against his children". To both Andraste and the Dalish magic was a gift of the god(s), but the Chantry perverted that teaching. I certainly agree that the teachings of the modern Chantry are at odds with what the Andrastian faith originally was (something that's indicated as early as the Warden's encounter with Kolgrim and the Disciples of Andraste). What I was talking about was the situation at the time of Shartan. The Canticle of Shartan came from an elvish oral tradition. There was no tradition concerning him among Drakon and his ilk but then suddenly (probably from political expediency) the Divine decided they ought to include him. In order to do so they had to consult with the Dalish elves and they were the source of the Canticle. The way it describes Andraste and how she viewed Shartan is so at variance with the way she is presented by the Chantry in their dogma that it would seem the majority of the text is authentic elven belief. Those words "bearing his will north, where we shall deliver it" tie in with the subsequent line "tear down the unassailable gates and set all slaves free". That is the "will of the Maker" that they are delivering: Freedom for the slaves. They then proceed to the battle of the Valarian Fields and once again the great hymn that rose over the Valarian Fields is not one of praise for the Maker but "Those who had been slaves were now free". Always the emphasis is on freedom, just as it has continued to be down to the present day with the Dalish. But that Canticle treats Andraste as a follower of the Maker, not Shartan, and simply frames him as a leader who is concerned with the freedom of the People. Simply because Andraste's views are at odds with mainstream Andrastian teachings doesn't mean that the elves believed in the Maker, it simply means that Andraste's version of the Cult of the Maker is at odds with the modern Chantry. That is why I say that Shartan might well have been prepared to honour the god who promoted freedom for all slaves and the elves who followed him might well have done so as well. That is what they claim that Andraste recognised in Shartan, a fellow freedom fighter called to that role by the God of Freedom. That is why I say that Drakon perverted the religion into one of subjugation, forcing everyone to follow his version of the faith and why naturally the Dalish would refuse to honour his version of the Maker and regard Drakon as no better than their previous overlords in Tevinter. Drakon's perversion of Andraste's version of the faith is another issue entirely; I don't disagree that Drakon's version is, in some respects, at odds with what Andraste believed in. But to say that the elves believed in the Maker simply because Andraste was cordial with them? It's at odds with every version of history - the one from the City eves, the one from the Chantry, and the one from the Dalish. It's at odds with the general premise of the elves of the Dales not believing in the Maker. If you prefer, what I am arguing for is Shartanism among the Dalish of his time. He was never a disciple of Andraste because that would suggest a subordinate role. They were equal figures in the eyes of the elves and of course to this day (at least as far as DAO) the Dalish still honoured Andraste as the human prophet who called Shartan "brother" (WoT2) but not as the Chantry regard that term; they were kinsmen in the same cause. The Dalish view Andraste as a fellow war leader: "You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation. We joined her rebellion against the Imperium, and our heroes died beside her, unmourned, in Tevinter bonfires." The Dalish believe that Andraste gave Shartan her own sword (something very significant to any warrior people) that had an elvish name "Glandivalis" (I'm going with Blade of the Faith for its meaning) and the faith that he was to defend with it was the freedom of both their sets of people. And the Canticle makes it clear that defending the freedom of the People was quite important to him. He also make it clear that he believed that the People will set themselves free, and uses language that makes it clear that he's willing to accept Andraste as an ally, but that the elves won't be subordinate in a fight against the Imperium (which makes sense when you consider that they used to be slaves to humans). For a Dalish to adhere to that belief would in no way render the sacrifices of their people meaningless because the reason they have suffered is that they refuse to surrender their freedom, whether that be of lifestyle, customs or worship. Respecting the faith of someone, and incorporating it into your own faith, are two very different things. I have friends who are Jewish and Muslim, and I respect their religious rights, but that doesn't mean I'm going to adopt aspects or parts of their religion into my own belief system.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 19, 2017 16:41:51 GMT
I never claimed Shartan was a religious leader, and I'm not seeing where you're getting the notion that I'm arguing any such thing. Considering that the elves who established the kingdom of the Dales followed the elven pantheon, I think one can safely address that it's unlikely they were atheists or agnostics if they re-established their religion formally after creating their own autonomous kingdom. Considering that Gaider already addressed that elven slaves passed down their knowledge, and elven descendants of Arlathan were able to utilize knowledge from that time to help create the Grey Warden Order and the Joining Ritual, it's not as though all the information from the past was lost. I've always been under the impression that the knowledge the elves passed down was fragmentary and incomplete, twisted through time, which is supported by what we've seen, and the elven faith as we know it was reconstructed by the elves of the Dales. That the elves passed down that knowledge is not the same as practicing active worship of their pantheon. But neither of us can prove this point as yet so let's leave it alone. Shartan had to have been a religious leader if you are suggesting he gave as much inspiration for humans to adopt the Creators as Andraste gave elves to adopt the Maker. Humans looking to him and saying "Huh, he's cool and he's an elf, let's take a look at those elven gods," makes as little sense as "Huh, she's cool and she's human, let's take a look at that human god," I would agree, but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that elves would have been inspired to follow the Andrastian faith simply because Andraste was human. Andraste wasn't just a human who happened to follow the Maker, she was a prophet framing her entire crusade of freeing the slaves and fighting Tevinter as the Maker's will. And I'm sure that was the general view of the majority elven pantheon adherent elves. As I keep explaining, I am only arguing for the likelihood that some minority of elves had a different view. The Chantry teaches that, Andraste did not to my knowledge and any form of Andrastian faith formed among the elves would not include such a teaching. I highly doubt Ameridan believed such a thing. I think it a mistake to assume that all elves in the Dales were so devout in their ancestral faith that no other religions could have an appeal. Christians have been sending missionaries everywhere they can for almost two thousand years and everywhere they went they were able to find at least a small number of willing converts even if they failed to gain traction with the wider populace. The forms of Christianity they developed often incorporated aspects of their prior beliefs, becoming wholly unique versions of the faith consistent with their own culture and values. I don't see any reason something similar could not have happened with the elves and the Andrastian faith. That it originated among humans and a human woman acted as the Maker's prophet mean that humans play a major role in the faith. That isn't the same as the faith itself being "human centric", especially given the major role played by Shartan in that story. An elven cult of the Maker would probably have placed much greater significance on his role, as indicated by Andraste's naming him as an equal in his canticle. Besides which, I don't recall any indication that only humans are the "Children of the Maker". And when I speak of the generalized Andrastian faith I am encompassing all of them and many potential interpretations of Andraste and the Maker.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 20, 2017 10:19:09 GMT
Shartan had to have been a religious leader if you are suggesting he gave as much inspiration for humans to adopt the Creators as Andraste gave elves to adopt the Maker. Humans looking to him and saying "Huh, he's cool and he's an elf, let's take a look at those elven gods," makes as little sense as "Huh, she's cool and she's human, let's take a look at that human god," I would agree, but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that elves would have been inspired to follow the Andrastian faith simply because Andraste was human. Andraste wasn't just a human who happened to follow the Maker, she was a prophet framing her entire crusade of freeing the slaves and fighting Tevinter as the Maker's will. Not at all. Shartan didn't have to be a prophet or the leader of a religious movement for him to have his own beliefs; his primary concern, in his own Canticle, is stated to be the emancipation of the People. He's an anti-slavery leader. He's the leader of an elven movement to free the elves from bondage to the Imperium. He accomplished his own astonishing feats, including saving Andraste. And Andraste is regarded simply as a 'war leader' in the histories of the Dalish, not as a divine figure. The Dalish histories addressed her as someone who, like Shartan, wanted to topple the slave regime of the Imperium. And I'm sure that was the general view of the majority elven pantheon adherent elves. As I keep explaining, I am only arguing for the likelihood that some minority of elves had a different view. I suspect the elves adopting the faith of a human god is as likely as humans adopting the worship of the elven pantheon. While the Andrastian faith teaches that non-humans are "further" from the Maker than humans are, which doesn't come across as a universal faith in the slightest. And considering that elves were raised with their own religion, that simply makes it all the more absurd to argue that they have every reason to abandon their religion in favor of the Andrastian faith when the Dales was established and the elves followed their own elven pantheon as the national religion. It literally took conquering the Dales and outlawing the elven faith in order to forcibly convert the elven populace to the Andrastian faith. The Chantry teaches that, Andraste did not to my knowledge and any form of Andrastian faith formed among the elves would not include such a teaching. I highly doubt Ameridan believed such a thing. I think it a mistake to assume that all elves in the Dales were so devout in their ancestral faith that no other religions could have an appeal. Christians have been sending missionaries everywhere they can for almost two thousand years and everywhere they went they were able to find at least a small number of willing converts even if they failed to gain traction with the wider populace. The forms of Christianity they developed often incorporated aspects of their prior beliefs, becoming wholly unique versions of the faith consistent with their own culture and values. I don't see any reason something similar could not have happened with the elves and the Andrastian faith. I never said no other faiths held an appeal to the elves of the Dales. Apparently, some elves elected to follow the Forgotten Ones. Elves have as much reason to turn to a foreign leader and their foreign god as humans would, which is the entire problem with your line of thought because you act like this human-centric religion isn't actually human-centric, even though it clearly is considering it's inception among humans and the role humans play as the Children of the Maker. That it originated among humans and a human woman acted as the Maker's prophet mean that humans play a major role in the faith. That isn't the same as the faith itself being "human centric", especially given the major role played by Shartan in that story. An elven cult of the Maker would probably have placed much greater significance on his role, as indicated by Andraste's naming him as an equal in his canticle. Besides which, I don't recall any indication that only humans are the "Children of the Maker". And Shartan's role in that story was to make it clear that the elves would set themselves free, not the Maker, and that the People would fight alongside Andraste as equals, not beneath her. That's not exactly a story that would inspire elven folks to follow the Maker. The problem with that is there was no generalized Andrastian faith. There were many Cults of the Maker. And when I speak of the generalized Andrastian faith I am encompassing all of them and many potential interpretations of Andraste and the Maker. And I'm certain most humans would identify with Andraste the same way I'd presume most elves would identify with Shartan.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 20, 2017 14:04:05 GMT
Not at all. Shartan didn't have to be a prophet or the leader of a religious movement for him to have his own beliefs; his primary concern, in his own Canticle, is stated to be the emancipation of the People. He's an anti-slavery leader. He's the leader of an elven movement to free the elves from bondage to the Imperium. He accomplished his own astonishing feats, including saving Andraste. ...And? I'm not sure where you think I'm suggesting Shartan didn't have his own beliefs. My only argument regarding him is that he was not promoting or championing a religious faith in the manner that Andraste was. And as you note, his very specifically elven aims actually strengthen my argument that human soldier were unlikely to be inspired by him in the same way. Andraste' stated aims in Shartan's canticle are to "set all slaves free" which is the "will of the Maker" It seems to me that the idea of a god that wants slaves to be set free could have some potential appeal amongst the elves.You keep repeating this, but you haven't countered my points. I've already explained why I think the historical circumstances of Andraste's and Shartan's respective causes, and the ethnic exclusivity of the elven pantheon makes this sentiment totally nonsensical. So I won't address it further. So the major sticking point for you seems to be the idea that the elves would never ever worship a "human" god willingly. Or is there just something uniquely repellant about Andraste? Why? Why do you assume that an elven cult of the Maker must have viewed Shartan as lesser to Andraste? Like you say, Andraste casts them as equals in the canticle, specifically that Shartan was a "Light" to his people in the same way that Andraste was to hers. Could not an elven cult of the Maker interpret this as Shartan serving the Maker's will ("that all slaves be freed") even if he didn't declare himself as such or know it himself? There's no subordination here. An elf worshipping the Maker is not somehow demeaning his own kind. What's peculiar to me is that you think elves identifying with Shartan is exclusive to elves being inspired by Andraste's faith.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 21, 2017 1:09:14 GMT
Not at all. Shartan didn't have to be a prophet or the leader of a religious movement for him to have his own beliefs; his primary concern, in his own Canticle, is stated to be the emancipation of the People. He's an anti-slavery leader. He's the leader of an elven movement to free the elves from bondage to the Imperium. He accomplished his own astonishing feats, including saving Andraste. ...And? I'm not sure where you think I'm suggesting Shartan didn't have his own beliefs. My only argument regarding him is that he was not promoting or championing a religious faith in the manner that Andraste was. And as you note, his very specifically elven aims actually strengthen my argument that human soldier were unlikely to be inspired by him in the same way. Andraste' stated aims in Shartan's canticle are to "set all slaves free" which is the "will of the Maker" An elven leader who emancipated himself, and his brethren, from slavery and took on Tevinter troops before encountering Andraste? Who was willing to fight alongside Andraste to bring an end to slavery? That sounds fairly impressive to me. I suspect the elves adopting the faith of a human god is as likely as humans adopting the worship of the elven pantheon. You keep repeating this, but you haven't countered my points. I've already explained why I think the historical circumstances of Andraste's and Shartan's respective causes, and the ethnic exclusivity of the elven pantheon makes this sentiment totally nonsensical. So I won't address it further. You have points of speculation, to be precise. You speculate that elves would have been malleable to following Andraste's faith, yet we know that - in lore - the elves elected to establish the Dales under the worship of the Creators. Given that we know it's a human religion, I address it from the perspective of knowing that the elves head off and don't establish a religion under the god followed by humans, but rather their own gods. Given that humans didn't adopt the elven pantheon, I simply think the reasons for elves and humans following their own respective religions is likely the same. I never said no other faiths held an appeal to the elves of the Dales. Apparently, some elves elected to follow the Forgotten Ones. So the major sticking point for you seems to be the idea that the elves would never ever worship a "human" god willingly. Or is there just something uniquely repellant about Andraste? Well, if the Andrastian faith was as agreeable as you seem to think it was, I'd imagine the elves wouldn't have needed to be conquered and coerced into following it. And Shartan's role in that story was to make it clear that the elves would set themselves free, not the Maker, and that the People would fight alongside Andraste as equals, not beneath her. That's not exactly a story that would inspire elven folks to follow the Maker. Why? Why do you assume that an elven cult of the Maker must have viewed Shartan as lesser to Andraste? Like you say, Andraste casts them as equals in the canticle, specifically that Shartan was a "Light" to his people in the same way that Andraste was to hers. Could not an elven cult of the Maker interpret this as Shartan serving the Maker's will ("that all slaves be freed") even if he didn't declare himself as such or know it himself? There's no subordination here. An elf worshipping the Maker is not somehow demeaning his own kind. Because the story focuses on Shartan's primary focus of breaking the bonds of slavery, of refusing to acquiesce to Tevinter, of an elven hero who felt the elves were strong enough to free themselves. And I'm certain most humans would identify with Andraste the same way I'd presume most elves would identify with Shartan. What's peculiar to me is that you think elves identifying with Shartan is exclusive to elves being inspired by Andraste's faith. Following that logic, humans could have also been inspired by Shartan's heroism to follow the elven religion. But we both already know how you feel about that. I'm not sure why you're so adamant that elves followed the Maker, yet no humans would have followed the Creators. A human-centric religion would have as much reason to appeal to elves as an elven-centric religion would appeal to humans. And while Andraste thought that perhaps the Maker sent Shartan, an elf could have easily thought that the gods sent Andraste in much the same fashion.[/quote]
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Post by oyabun on Jan 22, 2017 16:01:33 GMT
The Maker should be primarily considered in function of the ontological existence of objective morals values rather than just be a sparring to match others thedosian polytheistic religions.
-if the Maker exist therefore objective morals values can exist based on a theist view.
-if the Maker doesn't exist there cannot be objective morals values,a-theistic view.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 22, 2017 18:10:03 GMT
Well on that basis Solas doesn't believe the Maker exists since he doesn't believe in objective moral values. There is no good and evil, right or wrong in his eyes, except his own judgement on the matter. Considering the Maker was meant to have been in the Golden City up until the time the Magisters arrived and this was thousands of years after the founding of Arlathan and the raising of the Veil, you would think that Solas and the ancient elves would at least be aware if there was a separate Golden City in the Fade and an entity, now known as the Maker, inhabiting it. Instead the Dalish believe the Eternal (Golden) City in the Fade was home to their gods, which seems far more likely at present. The ancient Tevinters also believed it was home to their gods. Whilst the ancient cultures may have acknowledged the Maker as a creator deity, they did not regard him as the only deity or think he had moral authority over the others. So essentially the Maker, as the Chantry depict him, does not exist because we have been given ample evidence to disprove the claims they make.
However, as a transcendental being who has no bearing on the world, simply brought it into being and then left it to its own devices, could be said to exist and cannot be disproved. That seems to be all the writers mean when they say they will never prove or disprove the Maker.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 22, 2017 18:38:02 GMT
Instead the Dalish believe the Eternal (Golden) City in the Fade was home to their gods, which seems far more likely at present. Well, the Eternal City is the place where the Dalish believe their gods to be imprisoned; Merrill makes a comment that the Dalish have never viewed the Fade as 'the home' of their gods, but Dragon Age isn't exactly the most consistent franchise when it comes to lore consistency. It's unfortunate that Inquisition didn't spend more time fleshing out the modern beliefs of the elven faith. However, as a transcendental being who has no bearing on the world, simply brought it into being and then left it to its own devices, could be said to exist and cannot be disproved. That seems to be all the writers mean when they say they will never prove or disprove the Maker. While having no problem invalidating the faith of non-Andrastian groups, which can be a bit weird when you consider the real world group of people whom the Andrastian humans are based on and whom the Dalish are based on given the preferential treatment of one and the consistent vilification of the other.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 22, 2017 19:06:14 GMT
Actually the Dalish beliefs about the Beyond and the Eternal City are pretty consistent and for that matter probably accurate. The Beyond (the Fade) is said to be a holy place, once home to their gods. When Fen'Harel tricked them he said he would arrange a truce if they would return to heaven (the Eternal City), whilst he did a similar thing with the Forgotten Ones and the Void (Abyss). Then he trapped them both so they could not return. Whilst it is not clear how he managed this, apart from raising the Veil, it is probably true that the doorway to their prison lies in the Black City. Not only that but they also teach that Fen'Harel continued to roam the Fade, which we know that Solas did do while asleep but obviously spiritually rather than physically.
Did Merrill actually say that they didn't view the Fade as the home of their gods? (my memory of DA2 is somewhat vague). What did they regard it as then? Like I say, considering what has been revealed subsequently, the Dalish belief that it is the home of their gods does make sense, since it ties in with everything else that they remember. From reading their lore again concerning Arlathan, it states that it was the place where "the best of the elves would go", suggesting that the lowly servant elves were not even permitted to set foot in it and may be that was true of the Fade as well, leading to the idea that it was a holy place, only fit for the gods. I also have a theory that the somnari were the nobility in ancient times, with the power to enter the Fade at will in their minds, whilst the servant elves were never able to do it other than in their sleep. The servant elves had never existed in the Fade and were wholly born of Thedas, whereas the Evanuis and the somniari were originally spirits that crossed over to Thedas and took on mortal form.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 22, 2017 19:18:34 GMT
Actually the Dalish beliefs about the Beyond and the Eternal City are pretty consistent and for that matter probably accurate. The Beyond (the Fade) is said to be a holy place, once home to their gods. When Fen'Harel tricked them he said he would arrange a truce if they would return to heaven (the Eternal City), whilst he did a similar thing with the Forgotten Ones and the Void (Abyss). Then he trapped them both so they could not return. Whilst it is not clear how he managed this, apart from raising the Veil, it is probably true that the doorway to their prison lies in the Black City. Not only that but they also teach that Fen'Harel continued to roam the Fade, which we know that Solas did do while asleep but obviously spiritually rather than physically. Did Merrill actually say that they didn't view the Fade as the home of their gods? (my memory of DA2 is somewhat vague). What did they regard it as then? Like I say, considering what has been revealed subsequently, the Dalish belief that it is the home of their gods does make sense, since it ties in with everything else that they remember. From reading their lore again concerning Arlathan, it states that it was the place where "the best of the elves would go", suggesting that the lowly servant elves were not even permitted to set foot in it and may be that was true of the Fade as well, leading to the idea that it was a holy place, only fit for the gods. I also have a theory that the somnari were the nobility in ancient times, with the power to enter the Fade at will in their minds, whilst the servant elves were never able to do it other than in their sleep. The servant elves had never existed in the Fade and were wholly born of Thedas, whereas the Evanuis and the somniari were originally spirits that crossed over to Thedas and took on mortal form. This is the scene with Merrill: Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits? Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar. Varric: You can say that again. Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins... Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less... I'll always respect Merrill for having to put up with so much bullshit as a Dalish elf in an Andrastian city.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 22, 2017 22:15:49 GMT
Apologies, I'd forgotten that conversation but remember thinking how reasonable her view seemed compared with Anders spouting Chantry dogma, which is rather ironic considering what he later does to the Chantry in Kirkwall. What is even stranger is that fact that he is inhabited by a spirit who you think would have corrected him on that issue. Clearly Justice had never met Imshael, who is very insistent that he is a "choice" spirit and not a demon. In any case I prefer Merrill's summing up that "all spirits are dangerous" in their own way and of course Anders would have been better off if he had realised that fact before he let Justice cohabit with him.
The writing team do seem to be awful at keeping consistency with their own lore. I find it particularly disappointing when official lore books contradict what has been stated in the game and there are even inconsistencies within the same lore book.
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 18, 2018 0:56:53 GMT
My Lavellan was able to tell Cassandra that he believes that the Maker exists, and later on in another conversation with Mother Giselle that he follows the Elven Gods. So, yes I believe it to be possible.
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