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Post by forgetmenot on Oct 7, 2016 4:13:56 GMT
Hi guys! I'm currently on my 2nd Lavellan play through. I cant not be an elf - need to feel the pain of the solavellan hell spiral once again, the angst is quite addictive.. Don't know what that says about me haha anyway! I want a completely different experience. My first Lavellan was a mage so she was her clans First which fit her because i wanted her to be an elfy elf (much to Sera's disapproval!). She hated the title of Herald and every chance she got she told people she wasn't chosen and picked the elfy icon as much as possible. She sided with the mages since she too was a mage. She didn't drink from the well even though she wanted to to honour Mythal but being a mage she knew it would place her under a compulsion and was a little wary of the "loss" it was describing. So... My next Lavellan is going to be a warrior. She's younger and not as serious but i want to play her as open minded and not particularly elfy at all. Wish there was an option to play a city elf / servant who was at the conclave it would make this much easier but the way I'm getting around the whole "have to be Dalish" thing is to roleplay that she wasn't always Dalish. She lived in the Denerim alienage until it got destroyed by the Blight when she was about 10 but then got taken in by Lavellan clan after she escaped. So this kind of explains why she would believe in the Maker since alienage elves tend to worship him.. But i also want her to be fascinated by the stories of the elven gods as well and the history of the elves and Arlathan etc. So basically she just very open minded. Does this work? Is their room for her to believe both the Maker but also the elven gods? Or would it have to be one or the other? I want her to have some kind of belief in them since the 2nd half of the game is very much connected to them and i want her to have a crisis of faith not just when its realised Andraste didn't choose her but when everything she knew about elves comes crashing down around her as well. That's a double whammy! Poor girl. I've given her a hard life haven't I!? And yes, i know i think about it too much but i cant help it. Things need to make sense for me otherwise it just drives me crazy.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 7, 2016 7:31:51 GMT
I don't remember if there's dialogue confirming that dual belief system that you can choose to use (I wasn't looking for it, although I might next time I roll an elf,) but as far as whether or not there's room for the two systems to intersect, why not? An omnipotent Maker can make anything. Even lesser gods. Hell, the last person to have the title Inquisitor turns out to have had the same belief system you want yours to.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 8:11:12 GMT
Mines an atheist, if that counts. I do image that Solas further pushed that on him though; I doubt my Lavellan has any faith anymore by this point..
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 7, 2016 12:34:07 GMT
Mine believe in the elven gods BUT there are some dialogue that insinuates she believes in the maker when talking to viv the first time, she talks about having the power to change everything bla bla bla and there's this option "No one should have this power" and my freaking elven says "NO ONE SHOULD PRETEND TO KNOW THE WILL OF THE MAKER" Wtf.
Ugh. Had to reload. Thanks for ruining my role playing Biower. I hate this fucking dialogue wheel.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2016 12:54:12 GMT
There is definitely room for a Dalish to believe in both. For erxample the Dalish religion doesn't say that the Creators created everything, and that they too were created by an unnamed deity. Coincidentally, both this deity and the Maker are symbolized by the same image: the Sun.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2016 12:55:57 GMT
Of course can. Both.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 7, 2016 13:40:42 GMT
Sure. You can believe that the Maker created everything, including the elven gods.
However, as has been stated, there isn't a dialogue path for this in the game, so it has to be largely headcanon. You will run into problems because the game considers an Andrastian Inquisitor differently than a non-Andrastian Inquisitor in relation to giving special options and such. But I don't think there is anything in the game that will outright refute your headcanon if you choose to go down this path. For example, if you tell Cassandra that you believe in the Maker, I don't think she will turn around and say, "But you're Dalish..." I could be wrong, but I don't think the game's religious triggers have that much depth and nuance. I think you'll be safe.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 7, 2016 14:42:43 GMT
Sure. You can believe that the Maker created everything, including the elven gods. However, as has been stated, there isn't a dialogue path for this in the game, so it has to be largely headcanon. You will run into problems because the game considers an Andrastian Inquisitor differently than a non-Andrastian Inquisitor in relation to giving special options and such. But I don't think there is anything in the game that will outright refute your headcanon if you choose to go down this path. For example, if you tell Cassandra that you believe in the Maker, I don't think she will turn around and say, "But you're Dalish..." I could be wrong, but I don't think the game's religious triggers have that much depth and nuance. I think you'll be safe. actually cassandra assumes the dalish elf probably doesn't believe in the maker, so she doesn't ask
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 7, 2016 15:04:19 GMT
^ Aw, that's too bad.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 7, 2016 15:20:14 GMT
Sure. You can believe that the Maker created everything, including the elven gods. However, as has been stated, there isn't a dialogue path for this in the game, so it has to be largely headcanon. You will run into problems because the game considers an Andrastian Inquisitor differently than a non-Andrastian Inquisitor in relation to giving special options and such. But I don't think there is anything in the game that will outright refute your headcanon if you choose to go down this path. For example, if you tell Cassandra that you believe in the Maker, I don't think she will turn around and say, "But you're Dalish..." I could be wrong, but I don't think the game's religious triggers have that much depth and nuance. I think you'll be safe. actually cassandra assumes the dalish elf probably doesn't believe in the maker, so she doesn't ask Actually, I think she does ask. I distinctly remember a Dalish response option in that conversation to the effect "I'm Dalish, we have our own gods."
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 7, 2016 15:27:17 GMT
actually cassandra assumes the dalish elf probably doesn't believe in the maker, so she doesn't ask Actually, I think she does ask. I distinctly remember a Dalish response option in that conversation to the effect "I'm Dalish, we have our own gods." she worded differently she doesn't ask "do you believe in the maker" I have a recent dalish playthrough and she didn't ask me
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Post by forgetmenot on Oct 7, 2016 16:51:34 GMT
Thank you all for your responses!
So I've just finished the the Haven conversation with her when she asks if i believe and before then every time it was mentioned that i was chosen I've never confirmed or denied it. My lavellan is just confused about the whole thing but isn't offended by the thought of being chosen. I quite liked how Cassandra asked and how i was able to respond, she asked "im curious.. Do you even believe in the maker?" And i chose yes but it came across as "I believe he exists" and she said it in a way that sounded like she believes but doesn't necessarily worship. I like that. I've decided after surviving the attack on Haven she's going to start believing she was chosen. I like the whole Maker is the sun idea in the story of Elgar'nan. Could def roll with that. She's definitely different this lavellan and its taking some getting used too but if i don't play it like this I'm just going to end up having the exact same play through as last time. Its such a shame solas romance is only for female elves, it would be much easier for my brain if i was just an andrastian human. But i need the Solas romance, its my fav.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2016 20:29:12 GMT
Actually if you are Dalish and say you are open minded about whether or not you believe in the Maker, Cassandra expresses surprise. You cannot win because if you say you believe in your own gods, she asks if there is not room in your faith for one more. This always had me confused because I thought it was the Chantry that insisted that the Maker was the only god. If they were okay with people believing in both, what was the problem back at the time of the Dales?
Now one of the problems about the game is that people can seem ignorant about their own history and beliefs and you cannot challenge certain assumptions made by other people. We have a people with a very strong oral tradition who are dedicated to recovering the past and remembering their history and yet the elven Inquisitor has no idea at all what happened at Red Crossing (despite someone having to have placed the scroll within the tomb), no idea about the identity of the last Inquisitor (even though their clan has apparently always maintained who they were) and in fact needs to be told things about their gods by Morrigan. As we discover in JoH, at the time of the Dales it was possible for a Dalish to believe in both Maker/Andraste and the elven gods. The thing is at the time the Dales was established, there was no Chantry. There were many different cults of Andraste among the humans tribes and it would seem that belief in the Maker co-existed with local deities. So the Dalish believing in the Maker as an ultimate Creator and their gods as created by him would have fitted in perfectly well with this. The values that the Dalish think were taught to them by their gods actually fit in rather well with what Andraste taught were the values held by the Maker. Our Lavellan ought to be aware of this and be able to say that they are able to believe in the Maker but it was the Chantry who declared that having such a belief was wrong because the Keepers would surely have taught as much since they are always at much pains to point out the humans were at fault.
We discover from reading codices that Gisharel (the Keeper of clan Rilaferin who shared a lot of Dalish lore with human scholars like Genetivi) actually acknowledges that Andraste called Shartan brother. Then if you read the preface to the Canticle of Shartan, you discover that it only found its way into the Chant originally because the Divine of that time asked for scholars to transcribe the Dalish oral tradition. What the Dalish believed is that Andraste acknowledged Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. She said he was called to be a light to his people as she was to hers. They also believe she named him her Champion. I would also note that in the Canticle of Andraste, where Shartan is referred to as the Liberator, it was he and a hundred of his people who tried to rescue Andraste from the pyre, when her human supporters simply abandoned her to her fate. Back in origins one of the Dalish says how their heroes died on Tevinter bonfires. So the history about Shartan found in his Canticle ought to be known by Lavellan but for some strange reason we are left in ignorance (having to buy a book to realise these things).
So clearly, if the Dalish are maintaining the traditions of their lore, then they should revere Andraste as an elf friend if nothing else. I think what altered their view of the Maker was Drakon's Chantry and his insistence on simplifying things (as stated by his Dalish friend). Drakon claimed to have had a personal vision from Andraste that seemed to have him usurp the position of Champion that had been given to Shartan, according to the Dalish lore, "forever". When you know this, it is easier to understand why they seem to have ignored the Maker in favour of exclusively concentrating on their own gods. They are effectively only doing what Drakon did in reverse. To worship the Maker started to be seen as honouring the god of Drakon and the Chantry rather than the Wellspring of Creation that Andraste and likely Shartan believed in.
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Post by forgetmenot on Oct 7, 2016 21:33:12 GMT
It is really confusing and i completely agree there should be more options for non human races to maybe suggest a dual belief system. I've gone a little further ahead since my chat with cassandra and it now seems that the game thinks I'm devout and my lavellan called giselle "revered mother" sounding all religious (im sure she didnt call her that with my elfy elf Lavellan) and it just does not fit! I never intended her to be a devout andrastian i just wanted her to be open minded. *sigh*. And then in the next conversation with Solas she gets all pissy about him disrespecting the Dalish. Nope. My brain cant deal with it, it just looks and sounds too strange. I cant enjoy it because it bugs me too much. No amount of roleplaying in my head is helping. Cant go down the originally from an alienage route because the way she talks about her clan / life just doesn't seem right and im having to do too much mental acrobatics for it to fit. Will just have to be an elfy elf again. Its a shame because it could have been an interesting play through if there were more race / religion specific dialogue options. I would have liked for her to believe she was chosen.. I wish i could turn around and say actually im not andrastes herald im Mythals. So ner.
I also wish my brain would let me just enjoy a game without having to figure it all out in my head. I was the same with my warden and hawke. Its exhausting!
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 8, 2016 4:43:41 GMT
Actually if you are Dalish and say you are open minded about whether or not you believe in the Maker, Cassandra expresses surprise. You cannot win because if you say you believe in your own gods, she asks if there is not room in your faith for one more. This always had me confused because I thought it was the Chantry that insisted that the Maker was the only god. If they were okay with people believing in both, what was the problem back at the time of the Dales? There is a difference between Chantry dogma and the open views of a singular person, Cassandra. She can be more accepting, even if the Chantry is not. Happens all the time in the real world. The game is limited in its dialogue options because it's a game.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 8, 2016 5:45:42 GMT
It is really confusing and i completely agree there should be more options for non human races to maybe suggest a dual belief system. I've gone a little further ahead since my chat with cassandra and it now seems that the game thinks I'm devout and my lavellan called giselle "revered mother" sounding all religious (im sure she didnt call her that with my elfy elf Lavellan) and it just does not fit! I never intended her to be a devout andrastian i just wanted her to be open minded. *sigh*. And then in the next conversation with Solas she gets all pissy about him disrespecting the Dalish. Nope. My brain cant deal with it, it just looks and sounds too strange. I cant enjoy it because it bugs me too much. No amount of roleplaying in my head is helping. Cant go down the originally from an alienage route because the way she talks about her clan / life just doesn't seem right and im having to do too much mental acrobatics for it to fit. Will just have to be an elfy elf again. Its a shame because it could have been an interesting play through if there were more race / religion specific dialogue options. I would have liked for her to believe she was chosen.. I wish i could turn around and say actually im not andrastes herald im Mythals. So ner. I also wish my brain would let me just enjoy a game without having to figure it all out in my head. I was the same with my warden and hawke. Its exhausting! I think you can play an open-minded Inquisitor. The problem is that the paraphrasing doesn't tell you which option would be appropriate in any conversation. For instance, my Inquisitor wasn't annoyed about Solas' attitude towards the Dalish, just curious, and I was never forced to be unduly committed to any one faith. Also, IIRC you can express that you didn't like life in the clan. As you say, it may take some mental acrobatics to fit everything in neatly, and I certainly wish there were more options to express yourself explicitly in more conversations, but at least you can play in a way that there are no contradictions.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 8, 2016 6:00:47 GMT
^ The vagueness does have some positive results in that you're a bit more free to have your headcanon.
For example, my Inquisitor is an Andrastian. Even so, he never considered himself the Herald of Andraste and I did pick those options to disavow that in the dialogue. I'm also able to roleplay and headcanon that he has issues with, and questions his faith as time goes on, but does still maintain that belief.
Having more nuanced dialogue is a double-edged sword in that sense.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 8, 2016 10:17:46 GMT
I'll accept that individuals within a faith can have differing views about it. The problem with Cassandra is that she is a Seeker, who have traditionally been the Chantry's enforcers and also the right hand of the Divine even before Justinia. It just seems odd to me that someone so senior in the faith would be so comfortable with promoting the idea that it is okay to worship you gods, just so long as you include the Maker as well. It flies in the face of everything we are told about the Chantry.
A quote from World of Thedas "Other races are seen to be further from the Maker. The elves have their false pantheon of idols." No ambiguity there, the elven gods are false idols. Incidentally, this is why I find the idea that Drakon was okay with Ameridan and his dual belief system. Drakon had massacred all cults of Andraste that didn't agree with his own, including likely those that maintained he was not a prophet of the Maker, yet Ameridan's heretical belief system was just fine. Ameridan was actually equating Andraste with Ghilan'nain, as demi-gods.
People could argue that Cassandra had to be something of a liberal in her outlook to have accepted the PC as Herald of Andraste in the face of Chantry criticism. However, she is at least constantly questioning this. Plus the whole point of the belief that you could be the Herald of Andraste's return at the end of the world ties in with Drakon's prophesy that he claims to have been given by Andraste. The belief that Andraste will eventually return is part of official Chantry dogma, which is why many ordinary people started to believe the woman that was seen with you in the Fade must be Andraste. The Chantry hierarchy criticise this claim because they think you are a false prophet, which turns out to be true. Their thinking would be that they maintain the Maker doesn't intervene prior to the return and according to Drakon's prophesy there is no Herald, just the Maker and Andraste herself.
This comes back to a debate that I had at length back on the old boards. You can say you believe in the Maker but that implies you agree with the Chantry's version of Andraste. You can say you don't believe in the Maker. You can also claim or disavow belief in your role as Herald. What you explicitly cannot state is that you believe in the Maker, you revere Andraste but you don't agree with the Chantry's portrayal of them both. To my mind Drakon was a false prophet. This is the line I have taken since DAO in my head and subsequently reveals both in game and in the lore books have only confirmed that view. I just find in disappointing that I cannot say as much in the game.
So, as an elf, what I would have liked to have said to Cassandra, in response to her suggestion that I accepted the Maker in addition to my own gods, was that I already did, I believed in the Maker but not in the Chantry, which I now know is entirely in keeping with Dalish lore.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 8, 2016 13:04:14 GMT
If I'm not mistaken the chant of light specifically says "there is only one god. and he is our maker" so believing in the elven and gods AND the maker doesn't make sense in the game world, nor is acceptable by anyone who follows the chantry
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 8, 2016 13:40:47 GMT
^ People interpret various religious teachings to suit their own ends. You know how much contradictory stuff there is in the Bible? I'd also argue that belief in the Maker does not equate to following the teachings of the Chantry, unless you're talking about a specific person, like Cassandra, whom we know both apply to.
And again, if you believe the Maker is the supreme being, you can certainly believe that then means He created the elven gods.
For the OP's situation, their Inquisitor, who is Dalish, wouldn't be a follower of the Chantry anyway, because they're Dalish. In that case, their belief in the Maker is disconnected from the Chantry. And too, don't forget that belief in the Maker predates the Chantry, which was founded after Andraste.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 8, 2016 13:43:56 GMT
if he created the elven gods it is not something the elven culture believes in. they never mentioned a maker created their gods. if one elf (yours for instance) believes that, it's just one singular case that doesn't fit in with the lore of the elves. the game wouldn't be able to cover this specific canon.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 8, 2016 13:49:11 GMT
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Post by eriador117 on Oct 8, 2016 13:55:17 GMT
Sure. You can believe that the Maker created everything, including the elven gods. However, as has been stated, there isn't a dialogue path for this in the game, so it has to be largely headcanon. You will run into problems because the game considers an Andrastian Inquisitor differently than a non-Andrastian Inquisitor in relation to giving special options and such. But I don't think there is anything in the game that will outright refute your headcanon if you choose to go down this path. For example, if you tell Cassandra that you believe in the Maker, I don't think she will turn around and say, "But you're Dalish..." I could be wrong, but I don't think the game's religious triggers have that much depth and nuance. I think you'll be safe. actually cassandra assumes the dalish elf probably doesn't believe in the maker, so she doesn't ask No, she asked my elf if he believed in the Maker and he said he didn't know I think it depends on answers in a previous conversation though to get that dialogue.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 8, 2016 14:11:00 GMT
actually cassandra assumes the dalish elf probably doesn't believe in the maker, so she doesn't ask No, she asked my elf if he believed in the Maker and he said he didn't know I think it depends on answers in a previous conversation though to get that dialogue. I see she didn't ask me because before that I said that I didn't believe I was chosen, so she brought that up again and already assumed I didn't believe in the maker
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Post by eriador117 on Oct 8, 2016 16:28:30 GMT
No, she asked my elf if he believed in the Maker and he said he didn't know I think it depends on answers in a previous conversation though to get that dialogue. I see she didn't ask me because before that I said that I didn't believe I was chosen, so she brought that up again and already assumed I didn't believe in the maker I can't remember exactly what I'd said previously, maybe I'd inadvertently said I was chosen, at a previous point
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