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Post by Natashina on Dec 19, 2016 1:43:58 GMT
Before I get this started, that was how I headcanoned both my dwarf and my Dalish IQs. They were, for a lack of a better term, agnostic. They didn't believe in any religion, although they did believe in a Higher Power. I was bummed I couldn't do that with my dwarf ('Hey, maybe the elves were onto something,') nor my Dalish ('I think that the Maker might exist as well as the Creators. It isn't how the Chantry knows Him/It.') I think that was a consequence of non-human characters being added during the year-long extension for the game. I've been reading the conversation and I'm with you guys about the elves. I'd dare say that the city elves are almost as disregarded. TME had this (imo) great setup with the city elves rising up. Briala is one of the few elven heroes I've seen in DA at all. I'm also talking within the Dragon Age and not going back to the time of Andraste. She's really about it and had a lot more nuance in the book. She also had a damned good reason for doing what she did. Meanwhile though, the vilification of the Dalish continued. Imshael and his involvement with slaughtering an entire Dalish clan. All because of one woman's greed. Oh goody, I haven't seen a power-hungry and/or cold Dalish character before. Instead, we see the entire culture of Dalish deconstructed down to their gods. The city elves were barely mentioned at all, with that conflict taking place off-screen. Briala was able to use eluvians and there is no mention from her in the game about this. Solas makes a brief comment at the end of Trespasser but that was it. Plus, they completely tore apart Briala's character imho to make her more like Celene and Gaspard. I know this is about the Dalish but it's like the elves are more story vehicles than actual characters. That's without the fact that they ignored how bad the alienage purge was and that whole mess with the Chevaliers. That purge took place in Orlais and the writers still barely mentioned it. I think Briala does once in the entirety of WHWM and I think the conversation is optional to boot. And again, why Imshael was more than just a powerful demon. Or why Mirihis is a completely awful person. All we see is her calling Solas a flat-ear. Not even the villains of the Dalish have had any balance that we've seen in the games. Solas doesn't count, since he's an ancient elf. Finally, I've noticed a creepy trend in DA games, almost bordering on a fetish. Wholesale slaughter of entire Dalish clans. The list is very unsettling to me and this is without getting into too much EU or lore. I'm sticking with just the games themselves and TME. DA:O--The Nature of the Beast quest chain. I was okay with this potential outcome since it made sense. DA:2--Merril's clan which was the Dalish Warden's clan. This can also happen by accident. TME--Imshael wipes out an enitre clan. Not noteworthy enough to be mentioned in DA:I. DA:I--A text-only quest possbily killing the PC's clan off on accident. Off-screen. Only mentioned in Trespasser. Pardon my language, but what the fuck? Most Dalish clans aren't named and the writers are almost taking a glee in tearing down the Dalish culture. If DG's words about the Maker are true (and they might no longer be given that he's been gone from BW for over a year,) then I have to stop and ask why. I'm racking my brain here and nothing has been picked over like the Dalish religion. The Chantry sure, but they aren't going to touch their god? I'd love to see the shoe on the other foot. "Yo, Thedas! Yeah, Andraste was a mage and your Maker was a Spirit of Faith. You mad? P.S. The Veil was invented by an ancient elf."
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 19, 2016 2:56:14 GMT
The issue is that Cassandra and Sera both condemn the elves of the Dales, and that's the only viewpoint one is given; if the developers wanted a more nuanced look at how things were back then, why not address what Drakon was doing to nonbelievers (like the Daughters of Song)? Why not make it more nuanced, rather than having companions explicitly blame the elves and have that serve as the only viewpoint given to the player? Bethesda was able to give more nuance in Fallout 4 with the eastern chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel and the Railroad over their ideological schism about unrestricted artificial intelligence. I don't see why it's beyond Bioware to do the same. Solas notes that perhaps he's misjudged the elves, but that's in the middle of the game, while Minaeve, Sera, Solas, Vivienne, Iron Bull (re: Dalish), Harding, and others provide anti-Dalish commentary or remarks for the first half of the game while the player is surrounded by advisers, companions, and even minor characters who extol the Andrastian faith or the Chantry. It's that kind of imbalanced writing and unfair favoritism that bothers me about the developers incessantly negative approach to the elves. The Dalish are wrong about some things and right about others, like the ancients being immortal, magic being wielded by the ancients, the war between the gods, Arlathan, and Fen'Harel's deception? The game treats it as if the Dalish are wrong about everything? The Andrastians are wrong about Andraste bestowing a gift to the protagonist? We hear Giselle giving us mental gymnastics about how the Andrastians are still right even though they're wrong. It's a hypocritical approach by the developers that shows a clear bias. There's no balance, there's no nuance; there's no pro-Dalish perspective outside the player, and that's entirely optional. Even their gods are vilified while the developers say that they will be hands off with the Maker, which is another example of the developers playing favorites. Harding's comment at the end is about the Inquisitor, however, and doesn't reflect the general attitudes that are driven towards the player about the Dalish as a whole. In case you're curious, here are the dialogues: Cassandra: "But he died here... and the elves ignored the Second Blight as it spread across Orlais. So began the animosity that led to the destruction of the Dales. So began the animosity that led to the destruction of the Dales." Sera: "Pride-cookies. Frigging again." (in reference to her rooftop conversation) In spite of their often somewhat weak main narratives and lack of character depth, Bethesda do nuance very well - far better than BioWare at this point. As well as Fallout 4, we also have the Empire vs Stormcloaks arc in Skyrim which led to forum threads full of hundreds of pages of bitter dispute lasting several years which goes to show how divided people were on which faction to support. Then of course there's the moral ambiguity of certain characters in Morrowind such as Vivec and Dagoth Ur. Meanwhile, recent BioWare games like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition are, in my view, generally far less nuanced with very clear good guys and bad guys. As much as I liked DA:I, the Inquisition itself is an absurdly progressive organisation considering it was attracting some of the most fanatically religious people in Thedas to join its ranks (who, based on previous games, tend not to come across as tolerant moderates). Then of course there's Cerberus in ME3 who are made into completely morally black puppets controlled by the reapers rather than more nuanced antagonists who are doing what they're doing for their own reasons. While I think Patrick Weekes is one of the better writers at BioWare, I'm worried about how he'll portray the Dalish in future DA games given his apparently anti-Dalish bias (based on how they're portrayed by TME and what Solas thinks of them): hopefully they won't be absurd cardboard cutout villains like most of them were in TME. I disagree that Bioware doesn't do nuance. Just look at the endless mege/templar debate on various forums, or even elf+everyone debates, or the giant threads about Solas. Where they fail is in the difference between the type of roleplay experience that each developer offers. I'd suggest that Bethesda is thin in that department. They provide very little for the player to actually act out in terms of dialogue, which is perfectly fine if you want to have most of it in your head, and I'll agree that that is satisfactory for a great many people. But Bioware offers a different experience, where you can have involved conversations, express opinions, or even get into arguments. Because they do that, and also because they have the import system, they have to limit those roleplay options. The nuance exists in the world and circumstances, but the difference is that the player can't take full advantage of it.
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Post by patches on Dec 19, 2016 8:24:59 GMT
As it looks like we're going to Tevinter BW will hopefully not be killing off another clan in DA4. Although I can't say I'll be surprised if they somehow do.
It's the imbalance of pro/con dalish opinions in DAI that's the problem. So much so that it boarders on the ridiculous, the game goes out of it way to tear this culture and people down and the player can't do anything about it.
Facts have never got in the way of religion plus Fen'Harel is hardly a trusted source among the dalish. I think something more drastic will need to happen like being used as pawns of the Creators themselves to cause a shift in belief. Fen'Harel's 'they were good but then they were bad' isn't going carrying enough weight to make the dalish change their entire religion. Individuals may doubt and some join his army but collectively they'll still believe and follow the Creators.
And I fully expect NPCs in DA4 to ridicule them for it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 19, 2016 11:54:44 GMT
I think rather that DA4 will be the turn of the ancient human religions, particularly that of Tevinter, to be comprehensively rubbished. We've had a hint of that in JoH with the way that Hakkon was created and the admission by the Auger that all their gods are just spirits. So it follows in a way that the ancient gods of Tevinter were just spirits indwelling dragons, except there was probably more to it than that, linking back to the ancient elves and the Evanuris, which may or may not encompass both the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. Which would of course fit with the Chant saying that the Old Gods were just rebellious spirits, turned demons, who usurped the Maker's place in the hearts of mortals.
Nevertheless, I find it difficult to believe in the Maker portrayed by the Chantry considering that he apparently forgot to mention elves and dwarves when detailing the progress of his creation. Of course this may be because first Hessarian and then Drakon made sure they omitted those references as being inconvenient to the political message of human supremacy over the other races. Looking at the timeline, the majority of Thedas history occurred before the Veil was raised and yet this period is totally ignored by the Chant.
I'll also be somewhat disappointed if they make the ancient elves responsible for the creation of the Blight on top of everything else. Even more so if we end up having to kill numerous modern elves in DA4 simply because they have been beguiled by Solas into aiding him, which would be particularly tragic, or have joined the Qun (as was the case in DA2) because it seemed the only alternative to Tevinter. Whilst the writers seem to want to vilify the Dalish culture, I actually admire them more now so much of what they remembered has been proven to be true and to be honest, the traditions of loyalty to family and community that they believe were taught by the gods are worthy ones (even Solas agrees with those sentiments). They have (unknowingly I'll admit) transformed the meaning of vallaslin from that of slave markings to the sign of elves who refuse to submit to anyone. Given how they were abandoned to their fate by the ancient elves who went into uthenera to await the return of their overlords, they have done rather well to survive enslavement by Tevinter, treachery by their southern neighbour and on-going persecution throughout Thedas, yet still retain their own unique identity. Whilst my Lavellan would like to be able to believe in some sort of deity (in the way that Dorian does), as I have him point out to the Arlathvhen, the Dalish have maintained their traditions by their own efforts, without the help of any gods, so they don't really need them as anything more than they have always been, a source of inspiration. If I could have my Dalish character say the same to anyone who mocks them in game for holding to their religion, I'd be happy enough.
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Post by Norstaera on Dec 19, 2016 16:24:30 GMT
You know, I thought Ameriden was Dalish and the woman he loved Andrastian and that the shrine in JoH was to honor both belief systems. Respect for his lover, if nothing else, not that he actually believed in the Maker. I could be wrong. It does happen occasionally.
There's a lot of interesting points raised in the various debates. To address the original question, maybe believe isn't the right term, but more an acknowledgment that perhaps there is more than one path to God/the Maker/the Ultimate Being(s), or at least a tolerance of other belief systems.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 19, 2016 20:12:13 GMT
You know, I thought Ameriden was Dalish and the woman he loved Andrastian and that the shrine in JoH was to honor both belief systems. Respect for his lover, if nothing else, not that he actually believed in the Maker. I could be wrong. It does happen occasionally. There's a lot of interesting points raised in the various debates. To address the original question, maybe believe isn't the right term, but more an acknowledgment that perhaps there is more than one path to God/the Maker/the Ultimate Being(s), or at least a tolerance of other belief systems. When you hear the prayer he gives in his memory at that shrine, Ameridan seems to describe the idea that the Maker in fact raised up Andraste to the ranks of the Creators or as an equal, establishing the Maker as the originator of the world and the Creators and Andraste as his benevolent worldly representatives. That's similar to the Tolkien elven understanding of the Valar and Illuvatar (Illuvatar rarely interacts except in the case of some catastrophic transgression while the Valar are more active and act in his name to the benefit of his mortal children). I think it's a pretty interesting syncretism. Not responding to you, but here are some ramblings: As to the discussions I've read regarding Bioware's treatment of the dalish versus their treatment of Andrastians, my sense is that they have been trying to portray the dalish as a people so wrapped up in their own sense of being wronged they can't see anything else while playing into their overall theme of people warping history to suit themselves. There has been some of this on the Andrastian side for this conflict, but handled in a different way because humans don't place such priority over what happened to the Dales, like seeing how they occasionally offered rumors of human sacrifice and profane ritual for the destruction and resettlement of the Dales. Some codex in the Exalted Plains claim bringing Andrastian faith as a justification as well. While they haven't undermined the Andrastian faith in the sense of discrediting the reality of their gods like the dalish, I think they've done a lot to criticize the way the Andrastian faith is used to justify abuse and oppression. I guess I see that as more an attempt to portray the abuses a powerful organized religion even when the religion's core ideas are good intentions. Whether the Maker is real is almost beside the point whereas showing the Dalish that the past they so fervently worship and base their sense of superiority off of is mostly the result of self-deception is more relevant to the theme in that case. So... yeah, I guess I see the disparity but I have a hard time feeling too much sympathy for the dalish. Their obsession with emulating the past and victim complex has always rubbed me the wrong way even when they are legitimately victimized. I also don't feel they're favoring the Andrastian faith so much as exploring different ideas with it.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 19, 2016 20:48:15 GMT
You know, I thought Ameriden was Dalish and the woman he loved Andrastian and that the shrine in JoH was to honor both belief systems. Respect for his lover, if nothing else, not that he actually believed in the Maker. I could be wrong. It does happen occasionally. There's a lot of interesting points raised in the various debates. To address the original question, maybe believe isn't the right term, but more an acknowledgment that perhaps there is more than one path to God/the Maker/the Ultimate Being(s), or at least a tolerance of other belief systems. Ameridan isn't Dalish, he's a syncretist (he believes in the Maker and he says he wants to be at Andraste's side after death). I really don't understand this need Bioware has to continually prohibit actual Dalish heroes from being provided since they only allow elven figures of importance to be Andrastian. The hypocritical double-standard with how the developers handle Andrastian characters and Dalish characters just becomes so ridiculous. This was a problem even before Inquisition; the story applauds Hawke for venturing into the Deep Roads to gain riches (in order to restore the Amell legacy - the past of his family) in an area populated by darkspawn, where contact with the taint will irreversibly contaminate you (even though Carver points out that they could simply move to the country and stop 'chasing ghosts', but that's brushed aside by Hawke), where the entire expedition team is in danger, but the story applauds Hawke for his efforts, even restoring his nobility and granting him the Amell mansion; in contrast, Merrill is repeatedly criticized for wanting to utilize ancient technology to benefit modern elves (with Merrill being proven right by Briala doing precisely in "The Masked Empire", but even that novel treats an entire clan as one-dimensional caricatures and kills them off since they're just a plot point to move the story forward). Inquisition doesn't let go of the double-standard - Drakon invades his neighbors, wipes out the followers of other faiths, but the developers pretty much handwave that to entirely blame the elves of the Dales for not trusting Drakon. Ameridan blames the elves, Cassandra blames the elves, Sera blames the elves; no one suggests that Drakon's actions would give any reasonable person pause. The developers don't criticize the ugly parts of Andrastian culture - Inquisition completely sidesteps the chevaliers murdering elves as part of their initiation rite, and even Celene killing thousands of elves in Halamshiral wasn't addressed during the quest where we end the Orlesian civil war. Andrastian elves are at the mercy of humans - being subjected to abuse or 'purges' if they protest their treatment - but that's almost entirely ignored. The Dalish refuse to acquiesce to the demands to surrender their culture and religion, and they're vilified for it. The People live day to day focused on survival from the dangers all around them, and spend some time trying to uncover the secrets of their past. Given how Andrastian law criminalizes their religion, they can't even build towards a future - they can simply focus on trying to survive as most of the human world is hostile to them. Why don't the games allow this to come through, rather than having Harding make a disparaging remark about the Dalish helping (even though Andrastian humans repeatedly attack them) or having retroactive continuity introduced to vilify the entire ethnic group (like the 'three mage recton')?
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Post by badking on Dec 19, 2016 21:36:12 GMT
In spite of their often somewhat weak main narratives and lack of character depth, Bethesda do nuance very well - far better than BioWare at this point. As well as Fallout 4, we also have the Empire vs Stormcloaks arc in Skyrim which led to forum threads full of hundreds of pages of bitter dispute lasting several years which goes to show how divided people were on which faction to support. Then of course there's the moral ambiguity of certain characters in Morrowind such as Vivec and Dagoth Ur. Meanwhile, recent BioWare games like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition are, in my view, generally far less nuanced with very clear good guys and bad guys. As much as I liked DA:I, the Inquisition itself is an absurdly progressive organisation considering it was attracting some of the most fanatically religious people in Thedas to join its ranks (who, based on previous games, tend not to come across as tolerant moderates). Then of course there's Cerberus in ME3 who are made into completely morally black puppets controlled by the reapers rather than more nuanced antagonists who are doing what they're doing for their own reasons. While I think Patrick Weekes is one of the better writers at BioWare, I'm worried about how he'll portray the Dalish in future DA games given his apparently anti-Dalish bias (based on how they're portrayed by TME and what Solas thinks of them): hopefully they won't be absurd cardboard cutout villains like most of them were in TME. I disagree that Bioware doesn't do nuance. Just look at the endless mege/templar debate on various forums, or even elf+everyone debates, or the giant threads about Solas. Where they fail is in the difference between the type of roleplay experience that each developer offers. I'd suggest that Bethesda is thin in that department. They provide very little for the player to actually act out in terms of dialogue, which is perfectly fine if you want to have most of it in your head, and I'll agree that that is satisfactory for a great many people. But Bioware offers a different experience, where you can have involved conversations, express opinions, or even get into arguments. Because they do that, and also because they have the import system, they have to limit those roleplay options. The nuance exists in the world and circumstances, but the difference is that the player can't take full advantage of it. True, there is some complexity to the mage-templar war and elves, though I think DA:I tosses a lot of that previously established nuance out of the window. For example, there are clearly drawn lines between good and evil, right and wrong. There are good templars (like Ser Delrin Barris) and evil templars who you need to eliminate (Knight-Captain Denam and the thugs who remain in the hinterlands). There are good mages (most of those who opted to remain at Redcliffe) and evil mages (the supremacists you encounter blowing things up in the hinterlands). Then, when you've selected one of these factions to aid you, the other is forced by the Elder One to serve his evil master plan - either through corruption by red lyrium (in the case of the templars) or enslavement (in the case of the mages) - IMO, it would have been more interesting if these factions had fought the Inquisition for their own reasons (e.g for allying with the opposite faction) rather than becoming the slaves of some great evil. The elves are portrayed in a similarly binary manner with (as mentioned earlier in this thread) the Dalish being frequently chastised for being 'wrong' and 'backward' without much of a counter narrative being presented (even though there are plenty that have been put forward by us Dalish supporters out of universe). The Evanuris are now divided into "the best of them" (Mythal) and a bunch of evil tyrants who murdered the only benevolent one. If it's revealed that this is merely Solas' perspective and there are actually other sides to this (perhaps the Evanuris are not as ridiculously evil as Solas suggested) then I'll take this back, but I have a feeling (based on how things have been turning out recently) that there won't be much more to this, and the Evanuris will end up being boss fight fodder for the next set of protagonists. Your second point makes a lot of sense, though even considering these constraints, I think BioWare can do better in future instalments (as they have done in the past with earlier Mass Effect and DA games for example).
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Post by shechinah on Dec 19, 2016 22:07:54 GMT
1. Ameridan isn't Dalish, he's a syncretist (he believes in the Maker and he says he wants to be at Andraste's side after death). I really don't understand this need Bioware has to continually prohibit actual Dalish heroes from being provided since they only allow elven figures of importance to be Andrastian. 2. This was a problem even before Inquisition; the story applauds Hawke for venturing into the Deep Roads to gain riches (in order to restore the Amell legacy - the past of his family) in an area populated by darkspawn, where contact with the taint will irreversibly contaminate you 3. (even though Carver points out that they could simply move to the country and stop 'chasing ghosts', but that's brushed aside by Hawke), 4. where the entire expedition team is in danger, but the story applauds Hawke for his efforts, even restoring his nobility and granting him the Amell mansion; in contrast, 5. Merrill is repeatedly criticized for wanting to utilize ancient technology to benefit modern elves 1. Ameridan was, as far as I know, before the Dales adopted their policy of isolation and began rejecting Andrastian missionaries. Around his time, I don't recall anything that indicated that an elf of the Dales would not be considered so if the elf in question did not exclusively worship the Creators around that time. It might be that it was not a popular choice of faith but I see nothing that indicates that it was forbidden to worship or that said worship removed you as a member of the Dalish. I don't even see anything that indicates that it was forbidden or looked down upon to exclusively worship Andraste and the Maker.
From the videos about the quests that I've watched, it seemed more like Ameridan saw the Maker as one of the Creators since in his prayer, he refers to Andraste as having been raised up to "-our Creators, our Makers". Makers, not Maker. It did not seem like he placed the Maker above the Creators. If he wants to be at Andraste's side as you claim then he wants to be at the Creators' side as well since he sees her as being with them.
Speaking of which, Andraste would not be the first in Dalish faith to be raised up to be amongst the Creators since Ghilan'nain, Mother of the halla, was chosen by Andruil and transformed by her into the first halla. She is worshipped by the Dalish including as the goddess of navigation. There is a precedence in the faith of the Creators for mortals being granted divinity by members of the pantheon.
There are Dalish heroes that might be more in accordance with your definition of a Dalish hero. They are the subject of codexes that also include how they fought and died in the Exalted March. Heroes of the Dalish and of the Dales are not prohibited. I'm also assuming that we're only talking historical figures and non-playable characters and not counting the elven protagonists. Oh, there is also Garahel although he was a city elf, not Dalish although he is considered a hero to all elves.
2. When is Hawke applauded for this by the story? Yes, Hawke finds wealth in the tunnels but they always end up losing their sibling with one of the options specifically being due to Blight corruption. Varric, the story's narrator, even laments the expedition.
3. Where is this said? Because the only time I recall something like that being raised is after they've arrived at Kirkwall and found they may not be able to enter the city. Hawke can suggest leaving to see if they might have more luck elsewhere but the sibling refuses on account of not wanting to put their mother through that again. Leandra expresses that she wants to stay because this is her or their home.
4. I don't understand this? The risk was known to the rest of the expedition. Hawke didn't hide the risk from the rest of the expedition. It's even why Leandra pleads with Hawke to not take their sibling with them.
5. Merrill's attempts with the mirror were not criticised because she wanted to utilize ancient technology to benefit modern elves. That was her motivation for doing so but not the reason for her ostracizing. That was due to the mirror in question previously having caused the loss of two members of the Sabrae clan. It was because it was this specific eluvian that she was fiddling with.
When you talk about Ameridan blaming elves, are you referring to this bit: "I dislike being so far from home. Halamshiral needs me. The darkspawn have grown stronger. Some of my brothers would let those creatures destroy Orlais. They think Drakon no better than the Imperium.But if we do not stand with the humans against the darkspawn, we might lose everything we have gained. I will fight this Avvar-dragon for you, Drakon... and then we shall drive back the darkspawn together."
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Post by Norstaera on Dec 19, 2016 22:08:03 GMT
I see I need to get back to DAI again. I needed a break and have been playing Skyrim. My current Inquisitor is a Lavellan and we just started Jaws of Haakon. Unfortunately, this was my Solas romance. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but of all the companions in DAO, DA2, and DAI he ranks far below the bottom. Loghain, Velanna, and Sebastian are the bottom. Might as well get it all out of the way at once. My point is that I obviously don't remember JoH and Ameriden that well.
Thinking more, I definitely believe there is a difference between Andrastianism and the Chantry. The Chantry is, imo, the political organization that forcefully became the so-called voice of Andraste and the Maker. However, I don't believe Andraste would approve of much of their positions. As far as I'm concerned there are the Dalish, the Andrastians, and the Chantrians. I thought about Chanters, but then remembered the brother in Lothering and the sister in the Hissing Wastes.
I am going to throw one more thing into the mix, the results of the Red Crossing findings. The Dalish keeper proved to be of higher character with his more tolerant, forward-thinking, and olive branch approach than the 'allegedly' superior Chantry (depending on who you gave them to). He may wish to preserve/discover the heritage of his people, but he isn't going to blind himself to unfortunate facts. I would love to witness a debate between him and Mother Ghiselle.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 19, 2016 22:38:22 GMT
Further thought: Despite what I said earlier, I want to make clear that I don't think Bioware has handled these topics well. Both the Andrastian faith and the Dalish have been handled very clumsily, especially in Inqusition. Merrill's whole storyline in DA2 was also handled clumsily.
In DA2 I attributed it to the rushed nature of the title. In Inquisition, I tend to attribute it to the problem they had with both the mage-templar and Orlesion civil war stories, they seem to have found themselves spread too thinly and thus failed to give any of those topics the depth and nuance they deserved.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 20, 2016 2:57:06 GMT
1. Ameridan isn't Dalish, he's a syncretist (he believes in the Maker and he says he wants to be at Andraste's side after death). I really don't understand this need Bioware has to continually prohibit actual Dalish heroes from being provided since they only allow elven figures of importance to be Andrastian. 2. This was a problem even before Inquisition; the story applauds Hawke for venturing into the Deep Roads to gain riches (in order to restore the Amell legacy - the past of his family) in an area populated by darkspawn, where contact with the taint will irreversibly contaminate you 3. (even though Carver points out that they could simply move to the country and stop 'chasing ghosts', but that's brushed aside by Hawke), 4. where the entire expedition team is in danger, but the story applauds Hawke for his efforts, even restoring his nobility and granting him the Amell mansion; in contrast, 5. Merrill is repeatedly criticized for wanting to utilize ancient technology to benefit modern elves 1. Ameridan was, as far as I know, before the Dales adopted their policy of isolation and began rejecting Andrastian missionaries. Around his time, I don't recall anything that indicated that an elf of the Dales would not be considered so if the elf in question did not exclusively worship the Creators around that time. It might be that it was not a popular choice of faith but I see nothing that indicates that it was forbidden to worship or that said worship removed you as a member of the Dalish. I don't even see anything that indicates that it was forbidden or looked down upon to exclusively worship Andraste and the Maker.
From the videos about the quests that I've watched, it seemed more like Ameridan saw the Maker as one of the Creators since in his prayer, he refers to Andraste as having been raised up to "-our Creators, our Makers". Makers, not Maker. It did not seem like he placed the Maker above the Creators. If he wants to be at Andraste's side as you claim then he wants to be at the Creators' side as well since he sees her as being with them.
Speaking of which, Andraste would not be the first in Dalish faith to be raised up to be amongst the Creators since Ghilan'nain, Mother of the halla, was chosen by Andruil and transformed by her into the first halla. She is worshipped by the Dalish including as the goddess of navigation. There is a precedence in the faith of the Creators for mortals being granted divinity by members of the pantheon.
There are Dalish heroes that might be more in accordance with your definition of a Dalish hero. They are the subject of codexes that also include how they fought and died in the Exalted March. Heroes of the Dalish and of the Dales are not prohibited. I'm also assuming that we're only talking historical figures and non-playable characters and not counting the elven protagonists. Oh, there is also Garahel although he was a city elf, not Dalish although he is considered a hero to all elves.
2. When is Hawke applauded for this by the story? Yes, Hawke finds wealth in the tunnels but they always end up losing their sibling with one of the options specifically being due to Blight corruption. Varric, the story's narrator, even laments the expedition.
3. Where is this said? Because the only time I recall something like that being raised is after they've arrived at Kirkwall and found they may not be able to enter the city. Hawke can suggest leaving to see if they might have more luck elsewhere but the sibling refuses on account of not wanting to put their mother through that again. Leandra expresses that she wants to stay because this is her or their home.
4. I don't understand this? The risk was known to the rest of the expedition. Hawke didn't hide the risk from the rest of the expedition. It's even why Leandra pleads with Hawke to not take their sibling with them.
5. Merrill's attempts with the mirror were not criticised because she wanted to utilize ancient technology to benefit modern elves. That was her motivation for doing so but not the reason for her ostracizing. That was due to the mirror in question previously having caused the loss of two members of the Sabrae clan. It was because it was this specific eluvian that she was fiddling with.
When you talk about Ameridan blaming elves, are you referring to this bit: "I dislike being so far from home. Halamshiral needs me. The darkspawn have grown stronger. Some of my brothers would let those creatures destroy Orlais. They think Drakon no better than the Imperium.But if we do not stand with the humans against the darkspawn, we might lose everything we have gained. I will fight this Avvar-dragon for you, Drakon... and then we shall drive back the darkspawn together."
1. Historically, Drakon had Andrastian missionaries travel after his difficulties with the Dales prevented his planned invasion of the Free Marches, so that has nothing to do with this discussion about Ameridan. As to Ameridan, I'm not saying he isn't an elf of the Dales, but he clearly isn't Dalish given that he believes in the Maker; he elected to blend two completely different religions together, which makes him a syncretist. Do the Dalish view Andraste as a divine figure? No. Do the Dalish want to go to Andraste's side after death? No. Do the Dalish believe in the Maker? No. The simple fact is that Ameridan isn't Dalish, he's a syncretist who melded parts of the Dalish faith and the Andrastian faith into something else. That's why I brought up the simple fact that Ameridan isn't Dalish. In addition, my "definition" of a Dalish hero is that he or she is Dalish. That's it. 2. Applauded and rewarded in the sense that Hawke acquires a substantial amount of money, acquires the Amell mansion, becomes a noble, is recognized and treated with respect by the Viscount - that's very different than how Merrill is treated for trying to restore the Eluvians to help the People. 3. Carver says at one point that Leandra is chasing ghosts in the effort to try and get back into Hightown, and that the family is being endangered because of it. Leandra and Hawke are rewarded for wanting to be wealthy nobles while Merrill is derided for wanting to restore revolutionary technology that could irrevocably improve the lives of the elves across Thedas. 4. It's simple - Hawke focusing on the past to help his present situation is rewarded, while Merrill focusing on restoring the Eluvians of the past is ridiculed and derided. There's a crystal clear distinction between how an Andrastian human trying to reclaim an aspect of the past (for financial gain) is treated in comparison to a Dalish elf trying to reclaim an aspect of the past (to bring an end to the plight of the elves and to help all the elves). 5. Merrill's efforts with the Eluvian was criticized repeatedly, and Marethari's argument about the taint is brought up in Act II (and even the reasons behind her opposition change entirely in Act III). Aveline calls her "stupid" at one point for looking towards the past (although she never says anything similar to Hawke looking towards the past to help his present situation, but Merrill is Dalish and Hawke is an Andrastian human so double-standards apparently apply). When I refer to Ameridan blaming the elves, I'm putting the entire scene in context, including the responses it provokes from Cassandra and Sera. Cassandra: "But he died here... and the elves ignored the Second Blight as it spread across Orlais. So began the animosity that led to the destruction of the Dales. So began the animosity that led to the destruction of the Dales." Sera: "Pride-cookies. Frigging again." Is there any mention of Drakon launching a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors, and conquering them to create Orlais? No. Is there any mention of Drakon forcing subjects to convert, and wiping out the followers of other faiths who didn't convert (like the Daughters of Song)? No. Is there any mention of the issues between the Dales and Orlais that prevented Drakon from trying to take over the Free Marches, and lead to him sending out missionaries? No. I didn't see any nuance or depth, just the vilification of the elves of the Dales while Drakon is treated as if he has never done anything to warrant their apprehension or suspicion.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 20, 2016 11:22:48 GMT
I think rather that DA4 will be the turn of the ancient human religions, particularly that of Tevinter, to be comprehensively rubbished. We've had a hint of that in JoH with the way that Hakkon was created and the admission by the Auger that all their gods are just spirits. So it follows in a way that the ancient gods of Tevinter were just spirits indwelling dragons, except there was probably more to it than that, linking back to the ancient elves and the Evanuris, which may or may not encompass both the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. Which would of course fit with the Chant saying that the Old Gods were just rebellious spirits, turned demons, who usurped the Maker's place in the hearts of mortals. The difference is that the primary religion in Tevinter is the monothestic worship of the Maker. The Old Gods are worshiped by fringe groups and cults. I don't think the majority of Tevinters will even care if that belief system is "comprehensively rubbished." That is not the case with the Dalish, who do have their pantheon as their primary religion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2016 12:15:02 GMT
On the subject of Ameridan's lover, Telana, there is no definite evidence what her religious views are but she is an elf from the Dales, like Ameridan, and since she is also a Dreamer mage, I doubt she would subscribe to the Chantry view of magic, even if like Ameridan she honoured both Andraste/Maker and the elven gods. I must admit it seemed strange that people in game latched on to the fact that it was strange that an elf mage (Ameridan) had the friendship and trust of Drakon, even to the point of leading the Inquisition, but not that Ameridan didn't have greater objection to the direction that Drakon was taking with his version of Andrastrianism.
It would seem it was only after it had been absorbed into the Chantry, that the Inquisition became the fanatics they were later viewed to be before becoming part of that organisation. It is hard to see how its members would have been happy with Ameridan leading it if they were rabid Maker only religious zealots. Instead as one of the codices admits, the reason the Inquisition were feared prior to the foundation of the Chantry was that they were totally unbiased in their treatment of wrong doers, whether you were noble or not you were judged just the same. They had a proper court at which evidence was submitted, not simply vigilante justice. They were the nearest thing to having an independent law enforcement organisation at a time of political chaos, and so in fact, depending on how you conducted yourself, the second Inquisition could be just the same. Then ironically exactly the same thing happened, once the nobles got their act together, they were regarded as a threat to the established (corrupt) systems of governance and so had to be either disbanded or absorbed into the status quo. Which is why I opt for disbanding rather than repeating history, bearing in mind what happened to the organisation the last time it was absorbed into the religious hierarchy of Orlais.
What seems curious to me is that during the height of the first Inquisition (prior to Drakon) they apparently had no objection to these various cults of the Maker that Drakon later destroyed. It would appear that the Inquisition was solely concerned with actual magical threats to the population, whether from stray demons or rogue mages abusing their power. So long as the religion was not a threat to the populace, it was left alone. This is presumably why there were so many different cults to the Maker still around when Drakon decided to "unify" things.
What is also clear is that the Inquisition obviously had no problem with the Dales or the Dalish elves. Otherwise again it is hard to see how they would be happy with a Dalish elf like Ameridan stepping in to lead them. Instead it would seem like it was probably quite normal for the Inquisition to be responsible for human areas and the Emerald Knights to do the same type of work in the Dales. There was no need for the Emerald Knights to guard their borders from human intrusion because up until the foundation of Orlais, there was no large nation state they needed to worry about and the human tribes were too busy fighting among themselves to offer a threat to the unified elves. To put it another way, up until Drakon, the Dales was the largest and most stable political force in the region. This is why it seems so understandable that the Dalish elves would view Drakon as a threat, regardless of their religious leanings, because they saw what he did to his human neighbours and it was clear that he was intent on establishing an empire to rival that of the old Imperium. They would also have observed that the 2nd Blight did stop his expansionism into his neighbours.
I do wonder if after the 1st Blight, people expected there to be any more. Andraste had identified the First Blight and the formation of darkspawn with the hubris of the Magisters but having defeated the archdemon Dumat, it is reasonable to think that it was a one off event, even if darkspawn did surface from time to time. Andraste said that the Maker would forgive them if they embraced his worship once more (at least that is what the Chantry claims). Ten years after her death Tevinter followed the south in adopting the Maker as their official overlord god, although down south it would seem that the human tribes, like the elves, continued to worship their lesser gods alongside him. Everything seemed to be settling down nicely when along comes Drakon and starts killing off all the rival cults to the Maker and rival religions, forcing everyone to adopt his own personal version of the faith, in which he claimed he was granted a special vision and given the title "Blade of the Faith" (which is actually the meaning of Glandivalis and thus clearly the title given to Shartan).
So the Dalish would see a self proclaimed prophet (Drakon), promote a faith in which people are solely required to venerate the Maker and him by proxy, killing all those who object or simply ignore his authority, in contradiction of what the Dalish believed about Andraste and Shartan and the aim of their god (which was to free all people not subjugate them). Then almost immediately after the dedication of his new Cathedral and election of his Divine as a figurehead of this faith, the 2nd Blight starts in northern Orlais/southern Anderfels. Would the elves not see this as a judgement of the god of Andraste against this new faith and its Emperor? Viewing it in this light, it becomes rather more understandable that the leadership of the Dales declined to assist Orlais against the Blight. If anything it would confirm that they did believe in the Maker of Andraste and were happy to worship him as one of many among their pantheon of gods (just as Ameridan did), but they were convinced it was not the same god as the one being promoted by Drakon.
In hindsight we can say that the emergence of the 2nd Blight was just coincidental to the formation of Orlais but it may not have appeared that way to people at the time. If the 1st Blight was a judgement on the corrupt priesthood of Tevinter, the 2nd Blight could have been viewed as a judgement on the false prophet Drakon.
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Post by javeart on Dec 20, 2016 12:42:12 GMT
Personally, I'd be surprised if any of the Modern Thedas religions is left standing in the end, it feels like we're slowly unveiling the true story of Thedas and that we're going to find that nothing is the way everyone thought, they way the universe was presented in DAO. IMO it's just that Dalish took the first blow (though Andrastian faith took already one too, even if minor in comparison, with the discovery of the true origin of the Veil) and considering how things are going, I fully expect to learn at some point that the entity that talked to Andraste was a dreamer or a spirit, and not any maker. I think it's just that they cannot reveale everything at once. Of course, it that doesn't happen that way in the end, it will feel one-sided discrediting Dalish religion and not doing the same with Andrastian faith, but it's hard for me to believe that is going to be the case. And I have to say, that even if it was, one-sided as it would be, I'd still think that having real, even if "false", gods, that are major (if not the most important or even the only really important) players in Thedas history, and a being part of the lineage that actually gave the world its actual form is much more cooler than being the follower a religion based on some elusive divine being It was fun for me to see how intimitaded are some Andrastian characters in DAI by the undeniable reality of past elven greatness. Also, I fail to see completely how the inaccuracy of the historical facts in which a religion is based means vilifing said religion, let alone the culture of which it is a part of, because after all, Dalish culture is more than just their gods, it's also a way to react to Andrastian faith and human dominance, and that haven't changed, and I think most of its core values are intact. For me, if any religion is vilified throughout all of DA, that is the chantry, full of corruption, ultimate responsible of the way mages are treated, exploiting templars through their lirium adiction, etc. What's the worst you can say about Dalis after all, even from the human/andrastian POV? That some used blood magic, that one made a deal with a demon and got her clan killed, that they' weary of strangers and agressive against humans? That's nothing compaired with the things we're told some humans have done, and we've seen dozen of human blood mages, lots of peoples who screw it up royally for making a deal with a demon, and a lot of things much, much more worse than any of these. But there has to be "bad" people and "fools" too among the dalish, it would be wierder if there weren't. Of course, surely most of us sympathize with elves, mages and such at least partially because we relate them with real world oppressed groups, but you don't actually need a lot of real world references to fill in the blank, because the games and the book leaves us tons of examples of the way the chantry, human nobility (paritcularly orleasian nobility, but not only) but also a lot of human commoners abuse their power over elves and other social groups. Even the "good" human/andrastian characters are usually all about reforming the Chantry and changing things. I agree though that it would be nice to have maybe less human/andrastian characters around, and I think too that it would be nice to see more Dalish heroes, but I think they do quite a good job in showing the dark side of human/andrastian dominance, that's probably why a lot of us are against it And sorry for the way too long post
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Post by Norstaera on Dec 20, 2016 16:33:23 GMT
A lot has been said about how Hawke and Merrill/the Dalish are treated differently when they are both looking to the past. IMO, this is comparing apples to oranges. Hawke just want to find a place in the world after the darkspawn attacked his/her home. He/she doesn't necessarily care a great deal about the Amell lineage except that reclaiming the house her mother lived in as a girl means a lot to Leandra who is still alive. Hardly ancient history. And really, is it so out of the question to want enough money to get away from Gamlen's little slice of Paradise? That Hawke comes away with enough money to accomplish both goals is bonus.
Merrill's focus is on ancient history, as in 1,000 years ago. It's obsession, not duty, not scholarly interest, maybe not even pride in her heritage at this point. The past isn't dead, and understanding history is important, but it shouldn't blind you to everything else. She is blind to anything she might do to help her clan or her people in present day conditions. She shuts out all voices contrary to her obsession, not heeding the Keeper's warning or even what her own intelligence (yes, she is intelligent or she wouldn't have been First) tells her is a dicey proposition. Obsession and pride blind her to the fact of how much blood magic she is using and how it hurts her, or how much the demon imprisoned in Sundermount is using it to trap her. In effect, she turned her back on her clan and Marethari paid the price. Question: perhaps the trap was meant for both Merrill and Marethari?
The Dalish aren't exactly united in their approach to the past. Yes, some are clinging, almost desperately or angrily, to anything separating them from the shems who took away so much. A Keeper's job is to preserve as much of their heritage as possible, but some do so for a better understanding of history. This is not so dissimilar to anthropoligists and archaelogists. Others may be motivated more out of a desire to learn something that will give them an edge against the shem, whether for defense or offense. Some clans will attack any non-Dalish while others, such as clan Lavellan, are more integrated, or perhaps comfortable or even adroit is a better word, when interacting with humans. Just wanted to put that out there .
I think a more apt comparison is between Merrill/the Dalish and the Venatori of Tevinter.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 20, 2016 17:00:38 GMT
A lot has been said about how Hawke and Merrill/the Dalish are treated differently when they are both looking to the past. IMO, this is comparing apples to oranges. Hawke just want to find a place in the world after the darkspawn attacked his/her home. He/she doesn't necessarily care a great deal about the Amell lineage except that reclaiming the house her mother lived in as a girl means a lot to Leandra who is still alive. Hardly ancient history. And really, is it so out of the question to want enough money to get away from Gamlen's little slice of Paradise? That Hawke comes away with enough money to accomplish both goals is bonus.
Merrill's focus is on ancient history, as in 1,000 years ago. It's obsession, not duty, not scholarly interest, maybe not even pride in her heritage at this point. The past isn't dead, and understanding history is important, but it shouldn't blind you to everything else. She is blind to anything she might do to help her clan or her people in present day conditions. She shuts out all voices contrary to her obsession, not heeding the Keeper's warning or even what her own intelligence (yes, she is intelligent or she wouldn't have been First) tells her is a dicey proposition. Obsession and pride blind her to the fact of how much blood magic she is using and how it hurts her, or how much the demon imprisoned in Sundermount is using it to trap her. In effect, she turned her back on her clan and Marethari paid the price. Question: perhaps the trap was meant for both Merrill and Marethari?
The Dalish aren't exactly united in their approach to the past. Yes, some are clinging, almost desperately or angrily, to anything separating them from the shems who took away so much. A Keeper's job is to preserve as much of their heritage as possible, but some do so for a better understanding of history. This is not so dissimilar to anthropoligists and archaelogists. Others may be motivated more out of a desire to learn something that will give them an edge against the shem, whether for defense or offense. Some clans will attack any non-Dalish while others, such as clan Lavellan, are more integrated, or perhaps comfortable or even adroit is a better word, when interacting with humans. Just wanted to put that out there .
I think a more apt comparison is between Merrill/the Dalish and the Venatori of Tevinter. Except it's a matter of wanting the Amell mansion and a fortune. It's hardly just a home; it's becoming one of the nobility and all the perks associated with that. When I see the game reward Hawke for wanting personal riches to restore the Amell past, but condemn Merrill for wanting to restore the Eluvians to help the elves across Thedas, I see a hypocritical double-standard. Why is becoming rich better than helping the disenfranchised elves who have suffered for centuries? As for your claim that it's "obsession" (although I notice that kind of language isn't used when it comes to Hawke wanting to become rich - only with Merrill wanting to help save her people), I'm not seeing what alternatives Merrill could have pursued. The Dalish struggle to survive from day to day. The Dalish are nomadic precisely because they're technically criminals under Chantry law since their religion is legally prohibited. Andrastian humans attack them (hence why Clan Lavellan travels between the territorial boundaries of the Free Marches to try and lessen the number of attacks against them since Marchers don't want to risk provoking a neighboring city-state by invading their tertitory). Templars hunt down the Dalish. It's not like they can build towards a future when they can only survive in a world that fears and hates them. As the codex on Clan Lavellan addresses: "The Dalish are elves who refuse to live in human cities, where their people are exploited, having few rights. They choose to eke out an independent existence in the forests, attempting to keep the last remnants of their ancient culture alive. Revas is from clan Lavellan, a group of Dalish who migrate around the perpetually feuding Free Marches. Revas' people travel along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities." Last but not least, despite your attempt to lump Merrill with one-dimensional caricatures (in a comparison that makes absolutely no sense), Briala's use of the Eluvians proves that Merrill was right - the Eluvians can be used to help the elves. Briala does precisely that by using the Eluvians to empower her efforts to help the elves of Orlais.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2016 17:54:37 GMT
To be honest I think the use of the eluvians in Masked Empire and by the Qunari in Trespasser was way too easy. Morrigan I could understand because she was raised by Flemeth/Mythal and so likely had some insights into these things, plus she stole an ancient book in the keeping of a Dalish clan that gave details of eluvians, presumably the same one she translates more accurately when sitting in the garden of Skyhold after drinking from the Well.
However, Morrigan only ever got one eluvian working, that took her to the Crossroads but no further. Yet Briala gets access to the whole network (or simply a large part of it according to Trespasser) through being given a gem by a demon. If it was that easy, why did it take so long for anyone to get around to summoning Imshael? Why did he have the gem?
Then we have the Qunari. Apparently they gained access to the network by simply having the right "key". What would that have been? How did they come by it or know what it was for and how to use it?
Finally we have Solas taking back control of the entire network. This is rather more understandable since he is effectively an Evanuris and friend of Mythal, who was presumably responsible for creating the network in the first place but in that case, why was it so easy for other people to infiltrate it?
So in hindsight, Merrill's obsession would seem justified because she was right and there was the opportunity provided by the eluvian to provide her people with a very useful means of communication, but at the time she didn't know that. All she knew is that contact with this artefact had killed/cursed or caused the disappearance of two members of her clan, a Grey Warden had declared it dangerous, her Keeper had declared it dangerous and she was getting all her information about it from a very powerful demon that had been bound to that altar in Sundermount. Strangely enough, in view of what happened to clan Virnehn, through the Keeper not understanding the dangers of summoning and then not using the demon but leaving it hanging about and festering in anger, may be the potential destruction of Sabrae clan (which is far easier to achieve than to prevent) was all part of that demon's plan too. In both cases, the Keepers (and Merrill) ignored the basic rule of the Dalish - you do not mess with spirits because it always ends badly.
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Post by phoray on Dec 20, 2016 18:00:38 GMT
I never got the impression that my Hawke's wanted the nobility and perks. Hawke either IS an apostate or has an apostate sister and they're living in Lowtown. Even if the housing didn't change, the money would be needed to bribe the right people to stay hidden or even to finally break free of relying on Gamlen and make a run of it in a whole new place. All these goals take money, apparently the kind of money one finds on a Deep Roads Expeditiion. Leandra, obsessed with getting her childhood home back, is working on the Viscount on her own time. I don't even think the Viscount would have agreed to the reinstatement without a greased palm somewhere; unless the fact that we murdered the slaver residents leave the home vacant anyway, and no skin off his nose if they move in. But my Hawkes did not go to the Deep Roads to please Leandra- it was to turn our life as a family around, and definitely NOT to become some Hightown Noble.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 20, 2016 18:39:36 GMT
To be honest I think the use of the eluvians in Masked Empire and by the Qunari in Trespasser was way too easy. Morrigan I could understand because she was raised by Flemeth/Mythal and so likely had some insights into these things, plus she stole an ancient book in the keeping of a Dalish clan that gave details of eluvians, presumably the same one she translates more accurately when sitting in the garden of Skyhold after drinking from the Well. However, Morrigan only ever got one eluvian working, that took her to the Crossroads but no further. Yet Briala gets access to the whole network (or simply a large part of it according to Trespasser) through being given a gem by a demon. If it was that easy, why did it take so long for anyone to get around to summoning Imshael? Why did he have the gem? Then we have the Qunari. Apparently they gained access to the network by simply having the right "key". What would that have been? How did they come by it or know what it was for and how to use it? Finally we have Solas taking back control of the entire network. This is rather more understandable since he is effectively an Evanuris and friend of Mythal, who was presumably responsible for creating the network in the first place but in that case, why was it so easy for other people to infiltrate it? So in hindsight, Merrill's obsession would seem justified because she was right and there was the opportunity provided by the eluvian to provide her people with a very useful means of communication, but at the time she didn't know that. All she knew is that contact with this artefact had killed/cursed or caused the disappearance of two members of her clan, a Grey Warden had declared it dangerous, her Keeper had declared it dangerous and she was getting all her information about it from a very powerful demon that had been bound to that altar in Sundermount. Strangely enough, in view of what happened to clan Virnehn, through the Keeper not understanding the dangers of summoning and then not using the demon but leaving it hanging about and festering in anger, may be the potential destruction of Sabrae clan (which is far easier to achieve than to prevent) was all part of that demon's plan too. In both cases, the Keepers (and Merrill) ignored the basic rule of the Dalish - you do not mess with spirits because it always ends badly. Morrigan does say in Origins that Asha'bellanar didn't teach her anything about elven culture (you can talk with her about it when you play as a Dalish Warden), so her knowledge about elves would had to have come post-Origins. That said, I don't disagree that there's a lot of Plot Convenience involved (which is odd when it comes to Briala because Inquisition barely addresses her elven resistance, and even less so in regards to her storyline with the Orlesian Eluvian network being left to a rather brief wartable mention). Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvians and extrapolated information from the shard she cleansed (Gaider explicitly addressed this on BSN), and her arguments were always positioned as firmly in the belief that the Eluvians could benefit the elves. Admittedly, it's not elaborated on (neither is Morrigan's belief that the destination beyond the Eluvian will aid her in Witch Hunt). I'd wager that Morrigan and Merrill give such vague information about the Eluvians because the developers weren't certain as to what purpose they served until after Dragon Age II, although both women are clearly supposed to be informed (in-universe) about their importance. As to Audacity, I'd say that the fault lies with Marethari - Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity without brokering any deal (Audacity was imprisoned and sundered from the Beyond for over a millennia), but she was constructing the Eluvian from what she studied and incorporating the shard into it's construction and lived fairly far away from Sundermount. Merrill didn't have any authorial power over Clan Sabrae or Keeper Marethari (and Merrill already notes that the clan should have left years ago), and if Marethari let Audacity loose because she thought the spirit would be freed through the restored Eluvian (in contradiction to her earlier claims about opposing the Eluvian because she thought the taint would return), that suggests Audacity manipulated the Keeper in order to become free. Given that you see some similarity between the fate of Clan Virnehn and Clan Sabrae, do you think Merrill was meant to control the Eluvian network in the cancelled Exalted March expansion since that was supposed to take the player into the Arbor Wilds? I think she certainly would have made more sense as the 'elven expert'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2016 19:49:20 GMT
Sadly we'll never know just exactly how the cancelled Exalted March DLC would have panned out but if it had included the plot with the Temple of Mythal in the Arbor Wilds, then I think you are right and Merrill was originally meant to be the one who proposed it. The only thing I find hard to envisage is how the plot with the Temple of Mythal would have been relevant to a plotline involving the Exalted March on Kirkwall.
Mind you, I think the Well of Sorrows is going to be a rather redundant plotline going forwards unless they really do intend bringing back the Inquisitor in some way, considering there is a good chance they are going to have drunk from the Well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2016 20:04:03 GMT
Whilst on the subject of differing beliefs, what do you make of the cult of Masked Andraste that they introduced in the Last Court? It says they venerate the hunter aspect of Andraste but previously there has been no intimation in game or in the lore books that Andraste did have a hunter aspect. There is no suggestion in any of the verses of the Chant either. When a weapon is mentioned it is always a sword. To be honest it sounds far more like a cult who stumbled on some old murals of Andruil and re-purposed them. Odd that it also survived Drakon's purges unless it is a more recent development.
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Post by Norstaera on Dec 20, 2016 20:13:59 GMT
*snip*Hawke just want to find a place in the world after the darkspawn attacked his/her home. He/she doesn't necessarily care a great deal about the Amell lineage except that reclaiming the house her mother lived in as a girl means a lot to Leandra who is still alive. *snip*
Merrill's focus *snip* She is blind to anything she might do to help her clan or her people in present day conditions. She shuts out all voices contrary to her obsession, not heeding the Keeper's warning or even what her own intelligence (yes, she is intelligent or she wouldn't have been First) tells her is a dicey proposition. *snip*
I think a more apt comparison is between Merrill/the Dalish and the Venatori of Tevinter. Except it's a matter of wanting the Amell mansion and a fortune. It's hardly just a home; it's becoming one of the nobility and all the perks associated with that. When I see the game reward Hawke for wanting personal riches to restore the Amell past, but condemn Merrill for wanting to restore the Eluvians to help the elves across Thedas, I see a hypocritical double-standard. Why is becoming rich better than helping the disenfranchised elves who have suffered for centuries? As for your claim that it's "obsession" (although I notice that kind of language isn't used when it comes to Hawke wanting to become rich - only with Merrill wanting to help save her people), I'm not seeing what alternatives Merrill could have pursued. The Dalish struggle to survive from day to day. The Dalish are nomadic precisely because they're technically criminals under Chantry law since their religion is legally prohibited. Andrastian humans attack them (hence why Clan Lavellan travels between the territorial boundaries of the Free Marches to try and lessen the number of attacks against them since Marchers don't want to risk provoking a neighboring city-state by invading their tertitory). Templars hunt down the Dalish. It's not like they can build towards a future when they can only survive in a world that fears and hates them. *snip* Last but not least, despite your attempt to lump Merrill with one-dimensional caricatures (in a comparison that makes absolutely no sense), Briala's use of the Eluvians proves that Merrill was right - the Eluvians can be used to help the elves. Briala does precisely that by using the Eluvians to empower her efforts to help the elves of Orlais. I think a lot of people would disagree (as do I) that wanting enough money to get out of the slums and Gamlen's questionable generosity (he did sell them into servitude) is hardly obsessive. Please note that I said Leandra wanted her home and title back, in none of my playthroughs did any of the Hawke children want it for themselves, if they wanted it at all. If that's how you played Hawke, that was your choice. It was never mine. Hawke took a calculated risk and their sibling was affected whether they went or not. Leandra didn't try to dissuade Hawke from going, just both her remaining children going. Not even Varric suspected his own brother might lock them down there. Taking risks is not be definition obsessive.
Merrill's intentions may have been pure, but pure intentions don't protect her from becoming obsessive. Learning more about eluvians might help her people, but not that eluvian. BTW, did Briala accomplish anything that would last after her death, or would it all fall apart? Especially after Solas retook control of the mirrors.
I still say the Venatori, with their focus on bringing Tevinter back to past glory, is a better than comparing Merrill's actions to Hawke's. I don't mind a reasonable debate, but not in this thread since it doesn't pertain to the OP. If you want to start a new thread, that's a different story.
Back on topic - I don't see why a Dalish Inquisitor can't at least allow for the possibility that the Maker co-exists with the Creators. Nobody claims it was an elven or dwarven figure they saw helping, just that it might be Andraste. The Dalish don't deny Andraste's existence, she was a real person. I can see how such a cataclysmic event and miraculous escape might give anybody pause to wonder. It doesn't mean they doubt their own gods/ancestors, just that it might make them consider expanding their belief system. I agree with Natashina that it would have been nice if Cadash or Lavellan could acknowledge the possibility.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 20, 2016 21:07:42 GMT
Except it's a matter of wanting the Amell mansion and a fortune. It's hardly just a home; it's becoming one of the nobility and all the perks associated with that. When I see the game reward Hawke for wanting personal riches to restore the Amell past, but condemn Merrill for wanting to restore the Eluvians to help the elves across Thedas, I see a hypocritical double-standard. Why is becoming rich better than helping the disenfranchised elves who have suffered for centuries? As for your claim that it's "obsession" (although I notice that kind of language isn't used when it comes to Hawke wanting to become rich - only with Merrill wanting to help save her people), I'm not seeing what alternatives Merrill could have pursued. The Dalish struggle to survive from day to day. The Dalish are nomadic precisely because they're technically criminals under Chantry law since their religion is legally prohibited. Andrastian humans attack them (hence why Clan Lavellan travels between the territorial boundaries of the Free Marches to try and lessen the number of attacks against them since Marchers don't want to risk provoking a neighboring city-state by invading their tertitory). Templars hunt down the Dalish. It's not like they can build towards a future when they can only survive in a world that fears and hates them. *snip* Last but not least, despite your attempt to lump Merrill with one-dimensional caricatures (in a comparison that makes absolutely no sense), Briala's use of the Eluvians proves that Merrill was right - the Eluvians can be used to help the elves. Briala does precisely that by using the Eluvians to empower her efforts to help the elves of Orlais. I think a lot of people would disagree (as do I) that wanting enough money to get out of the slums and Gamlen's questionable generosity (he did sell them into servitude) is hardly obsessive. Please note that I said Leandra wanted her home and title back, in none of my playthroughs did any of the Hawke children want it for themselves, if they wanted it at all. If that's how you played Hawke, that was your choice. It was never mine. Hawke took a calculated risk and their sibling was affected whether they went or not. Leandra didn't try to dissuade Hawke from going, just both her remaining children going. Not even Varric suspected his own brother might lock them down there. Taking risks is not be definition obsessive.
Merrill's intentions may have been pure, but pure intentions don't protect her from becoming obsessive. Learning more about eluvians might help her people, but not that eluvian. BTW, did Briala accomplish anything that would last after her death, or would it all fall apart? Especially after Solas retook control of the mirrors.
I still say the Venatori, with their focus on bringing Tevinter back to past glory, is a better than comparing Merrill's actions to Hawke's. I don't mind a reasonable debate, but not in this thread since it doesn't pertain to the OP. If you want to start a new thread, that's a different story.
Back on topic - I don't see why a Dalish Inquisitor can't at least allow for the possibility that the Maker co-exists with the Creators. Nobody claims it was an elven or dwarven figure they saw helping, just that it might be Andraste. The Dalish don't deny Andraste's existence, she was a real person. I can see how such a cataclysmic event and miraculous escape might give anybody pause to wonder. It doesn't mean they doubt their own gods/ancestors, just that it might make them consider expanding their belief system. I agree with Natashina that it would have been nice if Cadash or Lavellan could acknowledge the possibility.I'd say that the willingness to go into the darkspawn infested Deep Roads for a rumored treasure could be considered 'obsessive' in the same way that Merrill wanting to bring an end to the plight of the People can be considered 'obsessive'. Hawke wants money and a mansion; Merrill wants to save her people from their downward spiral. You seem to argue that Hawke isn't obsessive because you think he wanted to do right by Leandra, yet you argue that Merrill is obsessive despite her wanting to save the entirety of the elves? And given that the expedition lead to a region populated by darkspawn - who will irrevocably contaminate anyone if their blood touches them - there's also a crystal clear risk in venturing into the Deep Roads for a rumored goal. Also, Merrill built her Eluvian from lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard. It's not an existing Eluvian; it's a brand new one. The comparison with the Venatori still doesn't fit; you may as well argue that Hawke is just like the Venatori because he wants to reclaim the past glory of the Amell family by restoring their financial status and reclaim the Amell mansion. Briala's efforts with the Eluvians can potentially lead to her becoming Marquise of the Dales and the shadow ruler of Orlais, giving new rights to the elves. I would safely say that her efforts were worth it. --------------- Probably the same reason why the human protagonist isn't given the option to adopt the Stone or follow the elven gods alongside the Maker.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 20, 2016 21:19:42 GMT
Whilst on the subject of differing beliefs, what do you make of the cult of Masked Andraste that they introduced in the Last Court? It says they venerate the hunter aspect of Andraste but previously there has been no intimation in game or in the lore books that Andraste did have a hunter aspect. There is no suggestion in any of the verses of the Chant either. When a weapon is mentioned it is always a sword. To be honest it sounds far more like a cult who stumbled on some old murals of Andruil and re-purposed them. Odd that it also survived Drakon's purges unless it is a more recent development. I thought it was pretty interesting - it reminded me of Silent Hill and the merging of the local Christian religion with the indigenous religion to make something new (which is likely what lead to the creation of Cult of Masked Andraste, supplanting the local religion with something that incorporated elements of the Andrastian faith). Your suggestion is possible, although it could have also been a local human religion that pre-dated Drakon's Cult of the Maker (there are a lot of intriguing possibilities as to their inception). I suspect their 'remote' location explains why they weren't purged (Serault seems to be on the brink of the Orlesian Empire, which also seems to be where the crimson vallaslin Dalish of the Tirashan forest who follow the Forgotten Ones reside). I wish the Cult of Masked Andraste was explored more; it was a neat concept. The Elusive Iconoclast also seems to have been influenced by the Serault Chantry: "You have usurped the Maker's creation. He made us both of the same matter, but you wear a crown and I a yoke. The world hasn't room for us both. For me to be content, you must be destroyed; and for you to be safe, I must be dead."
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