Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist?

gervaise21
N7

∯ Oh Loredy...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 10,821 Likes: 26,699

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 14, 2016 20:35:02 GMT Catilina, phoray, and 1 more like this

Quote

Post by gervaise21 on Dec 14, 2016 20:35:02 GMT

So far as gameplay dialogue is concerned you are not able to hold a belief in the Maker, as distinct from the Chantry, and also claim belief in your own gods. However, I believe it is possible to accept the role of Herald of Andraste and still claim belief in your own gods, which is the nearest you get to being able to say you believe in the Maker and the elven gods but not in the Chantry, bearing in mind that initially the Chantry repudiate the claim that you are Herald to Andraste and condemn everyone who acknowledges you as a heretic.

I'm thinking of replaying taking this option to see how it affects things down the line. The only time I played an elf who claimed to believe in the Maker, but only because he thought that was what everyone wanted to hear, I had to choose that over avowing belief in my own gods. I did find it rather fun, though, because having maintained a claim to belief up until the critical point with Giselle, this meant the game treated me as a believer from then on and I was able to take the additional options given to a believer, such as forgiving people in Andraste's name, which as an elf I found hilarious.

I repeat what I said further up in this post. Whilst the game doesn't acknowledge the content of the Canticle of Shartan in the options it gives to elves, that Canticle stems from the oral tradition of the Dalish, in which Andraste acknowledges Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. So the dialogue option I would like to have been given would have been: "I believe in the Maker as the Wellspring of Creation and Shartan was his prophet to the elves. I also believe in the elven gods as part of his Creation."

In the light of the information given in Trespasser, it would then be possible for my Dalish to reject the elven gods as tyrants and thus worthy of condemnation by both Shartan and Andraste. However, the values that the Dalish believe they taught concerning loyalty to family and community would still be valid. As for vallaslin, they are now the symbol of elven freedom instead of slavery.

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 14, 2016 21:34:37 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 14, 2016 21:34:37 GMT

Dec 14, 2016 20:35:02 GMT gervaise21 said:

I repeat what I said further up in this post. Whilst the game doesn't acknowledge the content of the Canticle of Shartan in the options it gives to elves, that Canticle stems from the oral tradition of the Dalish, in which Andraste acknowledges Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. So the dialogue option I would like to have been given would have been: "I believe in the Maker as the Wellspring of Creation and Shartan was his prophet to the elves. I also believe in the elven gods as part of his Creation."

In the light of the information given in Trespasser, it would then be possible for my Dalish to reject the elven gods as tyrants and thus worthy of condemnation by both Shartan and Andraste. However, the values that the Dalish believe they taught concerning loyalty to family and community would still be valid. As for vallaslin, they are now the symbol of elven freedom instead of slavery.

The Canticle of Shartan tells the story of Shartan, but to the best of my knowledge, the authorship of the Canticle was never determined. While Andraste embraced Shartan as an ally to fight the Imperium, even a modern elf can tell Velanna that he (or she) thinks Andraste used their ancestors for her own ends, and can make it clear to Leliana that he (or she) thinks there's nothing divine about Andraste, so I don't think elves would necessarily view Andraste the same way that a devout Andrastian human usually would. I don't think that Andraste allying with Shartan reflects the religious beliefs of Andrastian humans and Dalish elves; they had a common enemy in Tevinter because of the enslavement of their people. Given how atypical it would be for one of the Dalish to assume that the Maker originated existence, I can see why it's excluded as an option for the elven protagonist. It's like having the human protagonist voice belief in the Creators.

The Dalish are aware of Andraste, and view her as a war leader: "You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation."

With respect to what you concluded with, that particular reaction would be the most optimistic outcome for the Dalish clans now that the Creators have been vilified to serve as the Evanuris. Maybe the People become agnostics or atheists while maintaining their culture and autonomy.

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

gervaise21
N7

∯ Oh Loredy...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 10,821 Likes: 26,699

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 15, 2016 21:26:34 GMT phoray, Natashina, and 1 more like this

Quote

Post by gervaise21 on Dec 15, 2016 21:26:34 GMT

The preface to the Canticle of Shartan states that it was preserved as a purely oral tradition of the Dalish until Justinia 1 had her scribes transcribe it from elvish for inclusion in the Chant in 1:8. I'm pretty sure this was done out of political motives because at the time Drakon needed to mollify the elves over his actions in the south and to keep them on side because of the new threat of the 2nd Blight. Ameridan confirms that his compatriots thought Drakon was no better than Tevinter. This was hardly surprising because of his actions against the other cults to Andraste and his imperialistic ambitions, which even his friend Ameridan acknowledges. In fact, as I've explained further above, Drakon literally was Tevinter considering he was the son of a Tevinter Altus, albeit one lacking in magical ability.

Following the conquest of the Dales, may be the Dalish did focus more on their own gods and less on Shartan and the Maker. However, the oral tradition of the Canticle had to reflect the beliefs of the elves in the Dales in the period immediately after Shartan because it is so subversive and contradictory to mainstream Chantry tradition it could only have come from the elves. It says that at the first meeting Shartan gave an account of his uprising to Andraste and when the tale was finished, she responded:

"Truly the Maker has called you, just as he called me, to be a Light for your People".

So clearly it was believed by the early Dalish that Andraste acknowledged Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. The Maker had called her to be a light to her human barbarians and Shartan was called to be a light to the elves. There is no mention of her as the Maker's bride, which makes sense or how could Shartan have been called in the same way she was? In fact if you study all the early texts in the Chant you will see that nowhere does the Maker offer to make her his bride. He merely offers to take away from the suffering of the world and Andraste instead asks him to help her aid her people. In the Canticle of Shartan, the light they are bringing to their respective people is the hope of freedom and the will of the Maker is not to spread the Chant but to free all slaves. Hence Andraste giving Shartan her own sword Glandivalis (Glandival is elvish for belief or faith) with the words "Take this my Champion, and free our people forever." You will notice that the words of Gisharel would appear to confirm this and are totally in keeping with the Canticle of Shartan. Both are war leaders, who unite in a shared belief of gaining the freedom of all slaves.

Then the Canticle of Andraste that recounts her betrayal and death, recalls that "the Liberator" and a hundred of his people were the only ones who attempted to free Andraste from the bonfire, unlike her barbarian horde that tamely stood by and let it happen. No doubt Shartan did have the alternative title of "the Liberator" after Andraste named him her Champion because, I repeat, according to the Canticle of Shartan it was never about spreading the Chant by fighting for liberation.

This is why I feel that for my Lavellan to embrace belief in the Maker as the Wellspring of Creation and God of Freedom is getting back to his roots. He rejects utterly the Chantry interpretation of the teaching of Andraste. That came from the false prophet Drakon. The mantra of the Dalish likely came from the mouth of Shartan himself: "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit." If you would believe in the Maker, you must believe in freedom for all. Consequently the Chantry of Tevinter holds a false view of the Maker as well, since they promote slavery. Only when all the slaves are freed will the Maker be satisfied. That is his wisdom that was meant to be carried to the ends of Thedas.

Last Edit: Dec 15, 2016 21:42:20 GMT by gervaise21

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 15, 2016 21:55:59 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 15, 2016 21:55:59 GMT

Dec 15, 2016 21:26:34 GMT gervaise21 said:

The preface to the Canticle of Shartan states that it was preserved as a purely oral tradition of the Dalish until Justinia 1 had her scribes transcribe it from elvish for inclusion in the Chant in 1:8. I'm pretty sure this was done out of political motives because at the time Drakon needed to mollify the elves over his actions in the south and to keep them on side because of the new threat of the 2nd Blight. Ameridan confirms that his compatriots thought Drakon was no better than Tevinter. This was hardly surprising because of his actions against the other cults to Andraste and his imperialistic ambitions, which even his friend Ameridan acknowledges. In fact, as I've explained further above, Drakon literally was Tevinter considering he was the son of a Tevinter Altus, albeit one lacking in magical ability.

Following the conquest of the Dales, may be the Dalish did focus more on their own gods and less on Shartan and the Maker. However, the oral tradition of the Canticle had to reflect the beliefs of the elves in the Dales in the period immediately after Shartan because it is so subversive and contradictory to mainstream Chantry tradition it could only have come from the elves. It says that at the first meeting Shartan gave an account of his uprising to Andraste and when the tale was finished, she responded:

"Truly the Maker has called you, just as he called me, to be a Light for your People".

So clearly it was believed by the early Dalish that Andraste acknowledged Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. The Maker had called her to be a light to her human barbarians and Shartan was called to be a light to the elves. There is no mention of her as the Maker's bride, which makes sense or how could Shartan have been called in the same way she was? In fact if you study all the early texts in the Chant you will see that nowhere does the Maker offer to make her his bride. He merely offers to take away from the suffering of the world and Andraste instead asks him to help her aid her people. In the Canticle of Shartan, the light they are bringing to their respective people is the hope of freedom and the will of the Maker is not to spread the Chant but to free all slaves. Hence Andraste giving Shartan her own sword Glandivalis (Glandival is elvish for belief or faith) with the words "Take this my Champion, and free our people forever." You will notice that the words of Gisharel would appear to confirm this and are totally in keeping with the Canticle of Shartan. Both are war leaders, who unite in a shared belief of gaining the freedom of all slaves.

Then the Canticle of Andraste that recounts her betrayal and death, recalls that "the Liberator" and a hundred of his people were the only ones who attempted to free Andraste from the bonfire, unlike her barbarian horde that tamely stood by and let it happen. No doubt Shartan did have the alternative title of "the Liberator" after Andraste named him her Champion because, I repeat, according to the Canticle of Shartan it was never about spreading the Chant by fighting for liberation.

This is why I feel that for my Lavellan to embrace belief in the Maker as the Wellspring of Creation and God of Freedom is getting back to his roots. He rejects utterly the Chantry interpretation of the teaching of Andraste. That came from the false prophet Drakon. The mantra of the Dalish likely came from the mouth of Shartan himself: "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit." If you would believe in the Maker, you must believe in freedom for all. Consequently the Chantry of Tevinter holds a false view of the Maker as well, since they promote slavery. Only when all the slaves are freed will the Maker be satisfied. That is his wisdom that was meant to be carried to the ends of Thedas.

I don't know, Ameridan seems all too comfortable with the notion that Drakon potentially expanded his empire and imposed his particular brand of Andrastian faith on new subjects during the scene with the Vashoth Inquisitor for me to see him as uncomfortable with Drakon's ambitions. I have a real issue with the character because of that; he comes across like he's just a lapdog to Drakon and his Orlesian imperialism given his comfort with the idea of Drakon conquering new nations.

Aside from your character (because I'm speaking more in reference to the history itself and not your particular character's motivations), Andraste acknowledging Shartan as an equal doesn't equate to the elves believing in the god of a human religion. The humans had their faith, and the elves had theirs; there's no indication given that Andraste and her human followers following the faith of the Maker meant that the elves followed their human god as well.

It seemed to be an alliance meant to topple the Imperium, and not one of religious unity. The ghostly apparition of Shartan in the Gauntlet would indicate that Shartan accepted Andraste as an ally because of their mutual enemy: "It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we." In the Dissonant Verse, Shartan tells Andraste: "The People will set ourselves free. Your host from the South may march Alongside us."

While I don't dispute your notions that the Chantry of Andraste and the Tevinter Imperium are wrong about the Andrastian faith (the Disciples of Andraste indicated this was already the case during Kolgrim's dialogue about the divergence of the Chantry of Andraste from the original Cults of Andraste), I don't see why most modern Dalish would try to fit a foreign god into their religion, and I doubt their ancestors did, either, given how they followed the gods and not the Maker in the Dales.

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

Nightscrawl
N5

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 3,266 Likes: 7,815

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 16, 2016 12:44:16 GMT Natashina likes this

Quote

Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 16, 2016 12:44:16 GMT

Dec 14, 2016 16:49:06 GMT lobselvith8 said:

Dec 14, 2016 0:00:19 GMT thesupremedarkone said:

Doesn't the chant outright say if you worship the maker, you can't worship other gods

Also isn't it possible to headcanon that a dalish inquisitor is a city elf that joined the dalish?

The Chantry of Andraste doesn't invite the worship of other gods. The Chant outright says 'there is but one God', and aside from the missionaries who go out to try and convert people away from their indigenous faith, you have Andrastian historians like Genitivi who dismiss other gods as false outright.

A Dalish elf who adopted vallaslin? I'd figure that he or she would be fairly committed to the Dalish culture at that point. Admittedly, the game does have an absence of elven dialogue as a Dalish protagonist (you invoke Andrastian terms like 'demons' rather than strictly using 'spirits', you don't use elven terms like 'Beyond', you don't use 'shemlen' to refer to humans, ect.) but it seems that the Dalish option was intended to be distinct from the Andrastian perspective that comes with playing as an Andrastian noble or an Andrastian Circle mage.

Almost every time the various elven NPCs use "shemlen" it is in a derogatory way. While you and others may want those sorts of options, the devs don't appear to be interested with putting bigoted options in the dialogue, just like there aren't similar options for human PCs to say "knife ear" and so on. As for the other terms you mentioned, that is simply a resource issue. Having those options means more voice work and for the actor to record a special version of the line for only elf PCs.

For a more headcanon approach, it can be argued that someone in that situation might adjust their speech to conform to terms that everyone would understand. Even Solas does this. Do you want to have clear communication, even if it's using terms you don't agree with? Or do you want to continually explain what you mean to people who aren't familiar with your culture's terms?

Mountains. Cold. "Let's bring Dorian!"
It's good to be Champion!

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT

Dec 16, 2016 12:44:16 GMT Nightscrawl said:

Dec 14, 2016 16:49:06 GMT lobselvith8 said:

The Chantry of Andraste doesn't invite the worship of other gods. The Chant outright says 'there is but one God', and aside from the missionaries who go out to try and convert people away from their indigenous faith, you have Andrastian historians like Genitivi who dismiss other gods as false outright.

A Dalish elf who adopted vallaslin? I'd figure that he or she would be fairly committed to the Dalish culture at that point. Admittedly, the game does have an absence of elven dialogue as a Dalish protagonist (you invoke Andrastian terms like 'demons' rather than strictly using 'spirits', you don't use elven terms like 'Beyond', you don't use 'shemlen' to refer to humans, ect.) but it seems that the Dalish option was intended to be distinct from the Andrastian perspective that comes with playing as an Andrastian noble or an Andrastian Circle mage.

Almost every time the various elven NPCs use "shemlen" it is in a derogatory way. While you and others may want those sorts of options, the devs don't appear to be interested with putting bigoted options in the dialogue, just like there aren't similar options for human PCs to say "knife ear" and so on. As for the other terms you mentioned, that is simply a resource issue. Having those options means more voice work and for the actor to record a special version of the line for only elf PCs.

For a more headcanon approach, it can be argued that someone in that situation might adjust their speech to conform to terms that everyone would understand. Even Solas does this. Do you want to have clear communication, even if it's using terms you don't agree with? Or do you want to continually explain what you mean to people who aren't familiar with your culture's terms?

Shem is the derogatory term for humans; shemlen is simply elven for human (even Gaider pointed this out in the Dragon Central board). His exact words on the matter were:

"Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children".

Even without his quote, there would be no point to having a derogatory equivalent to a term if the original term was meant to be derogatory. That just doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, diluting the Dalish protagonist by having him speak as if he's just a reskinned Andrastian is problematic; it's why you have elven fans, dwarven fans, and qunari fans who have criticized the approach to the non-human protagonists (like Faerunner, TEWR, DragonFlight, and others).

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

Heimdall
N6

∯ Interjector in Chief

Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,597 Likes: 12,680

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 16, 2016 19:14:46 GMT via mobile phoray, Natashina, and 1 more like this

Quote

Post by Heimdall on Dec 16, 2016 19:14:46 GMT

Dec 15, 2016 21:55:59 GMT lobselvith8 said:

I don't know, Ameridan seems all too comfortable with the notion that Drakon potentially expanded his empire and imposed his particular brand of Andrastian faith on new subjects during the scene with the Vashoth Inquisitor for me to see him as uncomfortable with Drakon's ambitions. I have a real issue with the character because of that; he comes across like he's just a lapdog to Drakon and his Orlesian imperialism given his comfort with the idea of Drakon conquering new nations.

There is a quote that I think comes up while collecting Ameridan's memories where he says that Drakon is "unsure" and "wants to make it simple." He indicates that he hopes to convince Drakon that he is wrong and there is room for other interpretations.

So I wouldn't call him a lapdog really. He's friends with Drakon, but he seems to believe he can change his mind.

BioWare Brand Ambassador:
20% off of BioWare merch purchased at the BioWare Gear Store with this code: BWP61E0B (Expires 1/6/2024)

My Gaming Lore Channel (Mostly Dragon Age): See Here

gervaise21
N7

∯ Oh Loredy...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 10,821 Likes: 26,699

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 16, 2016 20:13:47 GMT phoray likes this

Quote

Post by gervaise21 on Dec 16, 2016 20:13:47 GMT

I don't think a Dalish believing in the existence of the Maker is adopting a human god because the Dalish acknowledge that there was a world in existence before the birth of Elgar'nan, the first of the Creator gods. They created the world of the elves but not the actual world itself. Thus there is room for the "Wellspring of Creation", as Andraste calls him. My Dalish prefers to call him Elgar'Bellanaris, the Eternal Spirit, because if everything had its origins in the Fade, it follows that the Creator God must be some form of spirit. Since Elgar'nan is also called the First Born of the Sun, it might also be appropriate to call the source of all life, Elgara (the elven for Sun).

This is entirely separate from having a belief in the Maker as the Chantry portray him. Right from DAO I have not been convinced that the god promoted by the Chantry and their interpretation of the teaching of Andraste, bears any resemblance to what she actually taught. Having read World of Thedas on the New Cumberland Chant of Light, the history of Andraste and the history of Drakon, I am pretty much convinced of it. So it has not just been a problem with my Lavellan. My Hawke felt the same way. Actually with them I was able to express this. When we were standing in the Gallows with the mages and Sebastian seems a little uncomfortable to be there, my Hawke says that they are sure Andraste would be there waving her torch of freedom with them, which was entirely in keeping with what my Hawke believed. It is also interesting that the writer of that line acknowledges that Andraste specifically fought for freedom from tyranny and injustice, which applies no matter who you are.

In Jaws of Hakkon they are clearly trying to show Ameridan as a reasonable Dalish, whilst his compatriots are the bigots. However, his religious beliefs make no sense either as a Dalish or as a friend of Drakon, who was specifically asked to lead the Inquisition. The Dalish of his time clearly would have been comfortable with the notion of the Maker as an overlord sort of god to their own, who for the most part stays out of mortal affairs, but not with Andraste as the Maker's Bride. Drakon and his Chantry would have found Ameridan's belief in both Andraste and Ghilan'nain as demi-gods heretical. There is only one god, the Maker and Andraste is his bride, so clearly there would be no room for Ghilan'nain or any of the other gods.

Now DAI and Trespasser pretty comprehensively rubbished Dalish belief in the Creators. They even gave them a different name. Whilst you could argue that it was still possible to maintain faith in the gods after the main game, you'd have to be in a serious case of denial to be able to maintain your faith in the light of the revelations in Trespasser, bearing in mind that the Dalish place a lot of store in their proud boast to be the last of the free elves. Mind you, you are left wondering what the Maker was meant to be doing when Solas raised the Veil, considering it was a major reality altering event. Still at least the Maker, as portrayed in the Canticle of Shartan, was meant to be a god who supported freedom and his representative, Andraste, seemed to think that Shartan met with his approval. Which is why I felt that if they were going to take away my belief in the Creators as gods worthy of my worship, then I would like an option (as I had with Hawke) to express a belief that does not equate to accepting the Chantry's version of the supreme being.

So long as in game, belief in the Maker equates to belief in the Chantry, then I will always be a non-believer. Outside of the game, I deal with the matter in the way I have outlined above.

Last Edit: Dec 16, 2016 20:15:50 GMT by gervaise21

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 16, 2016 21:56:52 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 16, 2016 21:56:52 GMT

Dec 16, 2016 20:13:47 GMT gervaise21 said:

I don't think a Dalish believing in the existence of the Maker is adopting a human god because the Dalish acknowledge that there was a world in existence before the birth of Elgar'nan, the first of the Creator gods. They created the world of the elves but not the actual world itself. Thus there is room for the "Wellspring of Creation", as Andraste calls him. My Dalish prefers to call him Elgar'Bellanaris, the Eternal Spirit, because if everything had its origins in the Fade, it follows that the Creator God must be some form of spirit. Since Elgar'nan is also called the First Born of the Sun, it might also be appropriate to call the source of all life, Elgara (the elven for Sun).

This is entirely separate from having a belief in the Maker as the Chantry portray him. Right from DAO I have not been convinced that the god promoted by the Chantry and their interpretation of the teaching of Andraste, bears any resemblance to what she actually taught. Having read World of Thedas on the New Cumberland Chant of Light, the history of Andraste and the history of Drakon, I am pretty much convinced of it. So it has not just been a problem with my Lavellan. My Hawke felt the same way. Actually with them I was able to express this. When we were standing in the Gallows with the mages and Sebastian seems a little uncomfortable to be there, my Hawke says that they are sure Andraste would be there waving her torch of freedom with them, which was entirely in keeping with what my Hawke believed. It is also interesting that the writer of that line acknowledges that Andraste specifically fought for freedom from tyranny and injustice, which applies no matter who you are.

In Jaws of Hakkon they are clearly trying to show Ameridan as a reasonable Dalish, whilst his compatriots are the bigots. However, his religious beliefs make no sense either as a Dalish or as a friend of Drakon, who was specifically asked to lead the Inquisition. The Dalish of his time clearly would have been comfortable with the notion of the Maker as an overlord sort of god to their own, who for the most part stays out of mortal affairs, but not with Andraste as the Maker's Bride. Drakon and his Chantry would have found Ameridan's belief in both Andraste and Ghilan'nain as demi-gods heretical. There is only one god, the Maker and Andraste is his bride, so clearly there would be no room for Ghilan'nain or any of the other gods.

Now DAI and Trespasser pretty comprehensively rubbished Dalish belief in the Creators. They even gave them a different name. Whilst you could argue that it was still possible to maintain faith in the gods after the main game, you'd have to be in a serious case of denial to be able to maintain your faith in the light of the revelations in Trespasser, bearing in mind that the Dalish place a lot of store in their proud boast to be the last of the free elves. Mind you, you are left wondering what the Maker was meant to be doing when Solas raised the Veil, considering it was a major reality altering event. Still at least the Maker, as portrayed in the Canticle of Shartan, was meant to be a god who supported freedom and his representative, Andraste, seemed to think that Shartan met with his approval. Which is why I felt that if they were going to take away my belief in the Creators as gods worthy of my worship, then I would like an option (as I had with Hawke) to express a belief that does not equate to accepting the Chantry's version of the supreme being.

So long as in game, belief in the Maker equates to belief in the Chantry, then I will always be a non-believer. Outside of the game, I deal with the matter in the way I have outlined above.

I have to strongly and respectfully disagree. Ameridan isn't Dalish; he's a syncretist who incorporates aspects of a human religion into elven belief (i.e. the Maker). That aside, I think it's unfortunate that we've never had a Dalish hero outside of the player optionally playing as one.

I also don't see why you think the Dalish at large would be comfortable with the idea of adopting a human god into their religion as the 'supreme' god; religions don't work that way, and it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how religions are different and not automatically compatible. Following the rationale you're suggesting is like saying Jewish people should have no problem adopting Jesus into their religion because there's technically room for him to be there.

Sure, the Dalish have little reason to continue following the faith of the Creators once the truth is known (assuming Fen'Harel was accurate, although given how Corypheus was handled I doubt they'll have any more depth to them), but that doesn't automatically mean that they have to adopt a human religion (or elements of a human religion) as a result. Andraste being a firm believer in the Maker (in the Canticle of Shartan) doesn't mean that the Dalish would defer to following a human god as a consequence, particularly as Shartan (in the Canticle) was focused on the liberation of the elves, not in Andraste's religious rhetoric.

As a side-note, I also find it peculiar that the developers have outright stated that they won't invalidate the Andrastian faith, but have invalidated the Avvar and Dalish faiths, and arguably the Dwarven faith as well given the revelation of the Titans.

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

Nightscrawl
N5

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 3,266 Likes: 7,815

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 3:09:54 GMT

Quote

Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 17, 2016 3:09:54 GMT

Dec 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT lobselvith8 said:

Dec 16, 2016 12:44:16 GMT Nightscrawl said:

Almost every time the various elven NPCs use "shemlen" it is in a derogatory way. While you and others may want those sorts of options, the devs don't appear to be interested with putting bigoted options in the dialogue, just like there aren't similar options for human PCs to say "knife ear" and so on. As for the other terms you mentioned, that is simply a resource issue. Having those options means more voice work and for the actor to record a special version of the line for only elf PCs.

For a more headcanon approach, it can be argued that someone in that situation might adjust their speech to conform to terms that everyone would understand. Even Solas does this. Do you want to have clear communication, even if it's using terms you don't agree with? Or do you want to continually explain what you mean to people who aren't familiar with your culture's terms?

Shem is the derogatory term for humans; shemlen is simply elven for human (even Gaider pointed this out in the Dragon Central board). His exact words on the matter were:

"Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children".

Even without his quote, there would be no point to having a derogatory equivalent to a term if the original term was meant to be derogatory. That just doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, diluting the Dalish protagonist by having him speak as if he's just a reskinned Andrastian is problematic; it's why you have elven fans, dwarven fans, and qunari fans who have criticized the approach to the non-human protagonists (like Faerunner, TEWR, DragonFlight, and others).

I know what it actually means, which is why I made a point of saying, "Almost every time the various elven NPCs use 'shemlen' it is in a derogatory way." Just because it means something innocuous, doesn't mean it's not also used negatively. It's the tone and manner every single time one of them says it. It's rude, and they do it to BE rude, because elves primarily speak the trade tongue, just like everyone else in Thedas (except Qunari), peppering their speech with the little elvish they know in an effort to feel connected to their ancestors. It's not like they don't actually know the word "human," they choose not to use it in certain scenarios.

As for the rest, my point about resources still stands. Adding more such lines for different races would eat into the word budget and limit our options elsewhere. Perhaps in that case they shouldn't have any such references at all. In a perfect scenario, yes, all of the races would get options that fit them, but that's never going to be the case. They either have to make it completely neutral, or provide limited instances where the player can RP certain origin-specific things, like in that conversation with Josephine, or the one with Dorian.

Mountains. Cold. "Let's bring Dorian!"
It's good to be Champion!

Nightscrawl
N5

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 3,266 Likes: 7,815

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 3:20:02 GMT

Quote

Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 17, 2016 3:20:02 GMT

Dec 16, 2016 20:13:47 GMT gervaise21 said:

So long as in game, belief in the Maker equates to belief in the Chantry, then I will always be a non-believer. Outside of the game, I deal with the matter in the way I have outlined above.

I don't think it does. The main example of this is that conversation with Dorian where you can agree with his views regarding the Chantry. He believes in the Maker*, but believes both versions of the Chantry have no useful purpose. He seems to have his faith as a personal experience, not relying on any outside sources to tell him how to go about it.

You have the example of Varric as well, but you don't have any dialogue with him about it as you do with Dorian.

* I'm still not entirely clear on what his view of Andraste herself is. He tells us what he was taught, the Tevinter view, but not whether or not he supports that. Not that I think he would believe the Southern Chantry's view, but perhaps he has his own interpretation.

Mountains. Cold. "Let's bring Dorian!"
It's good to be Champion!

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 3:33:08 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 17, 2016 3:33:08 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 3:09:54 GMT Nightscrawl said:

Dec 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT lobselvith8 said:

Shem is the derogatory term for humans; shemlen is simply elven for human (even Gaider pointed this out in the Dragon Central board). His exact words on the matter were:

Even without his quote, there would be no point to having a derogatory equivalent to a term if the original term was meant to be derogatory. That just doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, diluting the Dalish protagonist by having him speak as if he's just a reskinned Andrastian is problematic; it's why you have elven fans, dwarven fans, and qunari fans who have criticized the approach to the non-human protagonists (like Faerunner, TEWR, DragonFlight, and others).

I know what it actually means, which is why I made a point of saying, "Almost every time the various elven NPCs use 'shemlen' it is in a derogatory way." Just because it means something innocuous, doesn't mean it's not also used negatively. It's the tone and manner every single time one of them says it. It's rude, and they do it to BE rude, because elves primarily speak the trade tongue, just like everyone else in Thedas (except Qunari), peppering their speech with the little elvish they know in an effort to feel connected to their ancestors. It's not like they don't actually know the word "human," they choose not to use it in certain scenarios.

As for the rest, my point about resources still stands. Adding more such lines for different races would eat into the word budget and limit our options elsewhere. Perhaps in that case they shouldn't have any such references at all. In a perfect scenario, yes, all of the races would get options that fit them, but that's never going to be the case. They either have to make it completely neutral, or provide limited instances where the player can RP certain origin-specific things, like in that conversation with Josephine, or the one with Dorian.

Except it isn't used negatively 'almost every time', so I don't see your point in saying the use of 'shemlen' should be prohibited for the player who is playing as a Dalish protagonist. I'd also point out that it's disingenuous to compare it to 'knife ear' as well. Knife ear is slanderous; shemlen simply means human in elven. The two aren't remotely comparable.

Also, it's safe to say that we're all well aware that it's matter of resources, but limiting resources in such a way where it feels like your respective elven, dwarven, or qunari protagonist is pretty much just a reskinned human takes you out of the experience. It makes it almost meaningless to give racial options if you strip away what makes that particular race unique.

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

gervaise21
N7

∯ Oh Loredy...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 10,821 Likes: 26,699

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 8:34:38 GMT

Quote

Post by gervaise21 on Dec 17, 2016 8:34:38 GMT

Whilst I don't want to bog the thread down with real world religion, in answer to lobselvith8, I would point out that Jesus was himself a Jew, all his original disciples were Jews and even today you will find people known variously as Messianic Jews/Hebrew Christians, who follow their ancient faith but also believe that Jesus is part of that religion, very often after having a personal encounter with him or some sort of vision. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

So their example does not really equate to the situation with the Dalish as there does not appear to be any sort of belief in a saviour figure as part of their original faith. I think you are quite right when you say that we have never had a regular Dalish in game outside of the PC, other than Merrill who was an outcast. Back in DAO they clearly withheld a lot of information from the Dalish origin because they did not want to reveal it as that point. In DAI it seemed peculiar that the Dalish had got so much of their history right: the fact they were all originally immortal and magical, broadly speaking the areas of interest of each particular god, the number of original gods and what happened to them, plus Fen'Harel's responsibility for it; yet got other bits so badly wrong, for example the cause of the loss of their immortality. It still seems odd to me that a Dalish Inquisitor would know nothing about Ameridan when subsequent to finding him we discover that his clan is still in existence and has never stopped saying he was one of them. The humans may not have believed them but the Dalish would. If, on the other hand, Ameridan was condemned by his contemporaries as a heretic and collaborator with the bad Emperor Drakon, why would his clan bother about what the humans thought about him? On the whole the majority of Dalish want to interact with humans as little as possible, particularly as there would seem no possible gain in insisting on his link to them.

I'd still like to know how they are going to explain away the previous history of the end of the city of Arlathan. We now have three versions of the demise of the empire of the elves; Fen'Harel says it was down to him raising the Veil; Abelas says it was down to civil war, although it is not clear if this was before or after the raising of the Veil; yet the Dalish and Tevinter seemed agreed that it was the city in the forest of that name. Bearing in mind that the attitude of the elves in the forest towards early Tevinter peace envoys seems exactly the same as the sentinels towards approaches to the Temple of Mythal, this would suggest that the settlement was indeed an enclave of ancient elves, yet it was also apparently full of modern elves who were captured and became the backbone of the Tevinter slave population. The only explanation I can think of is that the modern elves were the descendants of the slaves charged with caring for the nobility whilst in Uthenera, who were left leaderless and vulnerable when the city sank. In which case, who were the elves who fled to Cad'Halash and how did they know about the existence of a dwarven thaig so far in the south from where they were situated? If they had always been an enclave of modern elves, why were they so aggressive towards the Tevinter envoys? Why did the modern elves blame humans for the Quickening when it must have been evident to their ancestors that something had changed about them when Fen'Harel took his action? Why was the settlement in Arlathan Forest the only one with modern elves? (It is still not clear whether the elves of the Tirashan are modern elves or ancient ones but they would appear to be the only example). If there were enclaves of modern elves elsewhere, what happened to them?

Actually what the Developers claimed was that they would never invalidate the Maker. That should not equate to not invalidating the Andrastrian faith as promoted by the Chantry because it clearly did not originate with Andraste but Drakon and so to my mind it is fair game, particularly since the discoveries in DAI and Trespasser pretty much do invalidate it.

Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 8:37:55 GMT by gervaise21

doflamingodonquijote N3 Posts: 440 Likes: 221 doflamingodonquijote inherit Male 1836 0 Mar 8, 2022 11:53:49 GMT 221 doflamingodonquijote 440 N3 Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT October 2016 doflamingodonquijote	Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 11:30:49 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 17, 2016 11:30:49 GMT Yes because the Maker is the father of Elgar'nan that how this elven god got his powers from.
	Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 11:32:18 GMT by doflamingodonquijote Cobra Kai Never dies! DR players are the enemies of the world.

secretrare
N2

Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 240 Likes: 212

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 12:40:22 GMT

Quote

Post by secretrare on Dec 17, 2016 12:40:22 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 8:34:38 GMT gervaise21 said:

Whilst I don't want to bog the thread down with real world religion, in answer to lobselvith8, I would point out that Jesus was himself a Jew, all his original disciples were Jews and even today you will find people known variously as Messianic Jews/Hebrew Christians, who follow their ancient faith but also believe that Jesus is part of that religion, very often after having a personal encounter with him or some sort of vision. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

I have always been of the opinion that the developers should try to or attempt to show more of the Maker despite their reticence to do so for the theme of faith.

Simply because the Maker isn't a God creator of everything,according to the Chant of light he did not created the Dwarves,The Stone,as well as the other gods of the elven Phanteon or the old gods and he also as a gender,so he clearly isn't ment to be the equivalent of the real world God of the abrahamic religions
(more likely the old gods instead were taken from the abrahamic religion as they are nothing more that inspirations of the angels of the jewish litterature).

Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 13:01:21 GMT by secretrare

CHAMPIONS DU MONDE. Vive la France

secretrare
N2

Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 240 Likes: 212

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 13:02:12 GMT

Quote

Post by secretrare on Dec 17, 2016 13:02:12 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 11:30:49 GMT doflamingodonquijote said:

Yes because the Maker is the father of Elgar'nan that how this elven god got his powers from.

we know nothing of Elgar'nan other than him being addressed as the Son of the Sun and the Maker being depicted like a Sun,but I don't think this necessarily mean they are related or are so close.For all I know that title may have a total different meaning.

Like the Greek god Apollo "the sun" son of Zeus and Leto and brother of Artemis,i think Elgar nan was inspired from him,in which being Son of the sun may mean being an herald of knowledge.For the Greeks Apollo was knowledge and poetry that's why he was adressed as the Sun,light of knowledge,light of the Gods.

Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 13:13:32 GMT by secretrare

CHAMPIONS DU MONDE. Vive la France

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 14:27:16 GMT phoray likes this

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 17, 2016 14:27:16 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 8:34:38 GMT gervaise21 said:

Whilst I don't want to bog the thread down with real world religion, in answer to lobselvith8, I would point out that Jesus was himself a Jew, all his original disciples were Jews and even today you will find people known variously as Messianic Jews/Hebrew Christians, who follow their ancient faith but also believe that Jesus is part of that religion, very often after having a personal encounter with him or some sort of vision. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

So their example does not really equate to the situation with the Dalish as there does not appear to be any sort of belief in a saviour figure as part of their original faith. I think you are quite right when you say that we have never had a regular Dalish in game outside of the PC, other than Merrill who was an outcast. Back in DAO they clearly withheld a lot of information from the Dalish origin because they did not want to reveal it as that point. In DAI it seemed peculiar that the Dalish had got so much of their history right: the fact they were all originally immortal and magical, broadly speaking the areas of interest of each particular god, the number of original gods and what happened to them, plus Fen'Harel's responsibility for it; yet got other bits so badly wrong, for example the cause of the loss of their immortality. It still seems odd to me that a Dalish Inquisitor would know nothing about Ameridan when subsequent to finding him we discover that his clan is still in existence and has never stopped saying he was one of them. The humans may not have believed them but the Dalish would. If, on the other hand, Ameridan was condemned by his contemporaries as a heretic and collaborator with the bad Emperor Drakon, why would his clan bother about what the humans thought about him? On the whole the majority of Dalish want to interact with humans as little as possible, particularly as there would seem no possible gain in insisting on his link to them.

I'd still like to know how they are going to explain away the previous history of the end of the city of Arlathan. We now have three versions of the demise of the empire of the elves; Fen'Harel says it was down to him raising the Veil; Abelas says it was down to civil war, although it is not clear if this was before or after the raising of the Veil; yet the Dalish and Tevinter seemed agreed that it was the city in the forest of that name. Bearing in mind that the attitude of the elves in the forest towards early Tevinter peace envoys seems exactly the same as the sentinels towards approaches to the Temple of Mythal, this would suggest that the settlement was indeed an enclave of ancient elves, yet it was also apparently full of modern elves who were captured and became the backbone of the Tevinter slave population. The only explanation I can think of is that the modern elves were the descendants of the slaves charged with caring for the nobility whilst in Uthenera, who were left leaderless and vulnerable when the city sank. In which case, who were the elves who fled to Cad'Halash and how did they know about the existence of a dwarven thaig so far in the south from where they were situated? If they had always been an enclave of modern elves, why were they so aggressive towards the Tevinter envoys? Why did the modern elves blame humans for the Quickening when it must have been evident to their ancestors that something had changed about them when Fen'Harel took his action? Why was the settlement in Arlathan Forest the only one with modern elves? (It is still not clear whether the elves of the Tirashan are modern elves or ancient ones but they would appear to be the only example). If there were enclaves of modern elves elsewhere, what happened to them?

Actually what the Developers claimed was that they would never invalidate the Maker. That should not equate to not invalidating the Andrastrian faith as promoted by the Chantry because it clearly did not originate with Andraste but Drakon and so to my mind it is fair game, particularly since the discoveries in DAI and Trespasser pretty much do invalidate it.

With all due respect, Jesus being Jewish doesn't automatically grant him an elevated place in the religion of the majority of people who are Jewish. The issue I take with you suggesting that the Maker should simply be placed into the elven religion is that religions just don't work that way - just because the Dalish don't consider one of their pantheon a 'creator' doesn't mean that you can just shove the Maker into such a position because he's a 'creator' in the eyes of Andrastians.

You can also ask why Jaws of Hakkon didn't even bother to condemn Drakon for forcibly converting people to his religion or for wiping out thousands (at the very least) of innocent people, instead choosing to condemn the elves for not implicitly trusting the imperialist ruler of Orlais. Ameridan is a less a character and more a mouthpiece to try and sway fans away from disliking Drakon by not focusing on the atrocities that he committed, and instead blaming the elves (hence why you have Cassandra and Sera chime in to blame the elves).

As for why Origins didn't focus much on Dalish beliefs, Dragon Age has always been human-centric. Inquisition is heavily Andrastian human-centric, even when you're playing as a non-human protagonist. I also find it a double-standard to treat the Andrastian faith in the Maker as sacrosanct while vilifying the gods of the Dalish and casting the gods of the Avvar as nothing more than spirits (which invalidates the Avvar faith and the stories of what their gods did in Thedas).

Considering Gaider's earlier comment (pre-Inquisition) about the Dalish living longer the 'more generations they lived away from humans', I think part of the issue with trying to reconcile the lore is that it's simply inconsistent (much like Malcolm's backstory and departure having three different versions).

"Apparently you can't be an elven hero without being Andrastian. The elves who believe in their own gods are evil and/or get slaughtered like cattle." - Addai

"He's a syncretist. That's not representative of traditional elven belief - obviously. Apparently Bioware thinks we can't relate to a hero that's not Andrastian. I didn't really go along with those who were upset about elven beliefs being crapped on in the main game, but it's starting to annoy me, too." - Addai

shechinah
N5

Ser Barksalot - Hiatus

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 2,584 Likes: 4,343

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 15:47:00 GMT phoray and Natashina like this

Quote

Post by shechinah on Dec 17, 2016 15:47:00 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 14:27:16 GMT lobselvith8 said:

You can also ask why Jaws of Hakkon didn't even bother to condemn Drakon for forcibly converting people to his religion or for wiping out thousands (at the very least) of innocent people, instead choosing to condemn the elves for not implicitly trusting the imperialist ruler of Orlais. Ameridan is a less a character and more a mouthpiece to try and sway fans away from disliking Drakon by not focusing on the atrocities that he committed, and instead blaming the elves (hence why you have Cassandra and Sera chime in to blame the elves).

When did it do that?

Also, a character blaming someone or more people does not mean the writers of said characters are. Sera does not like the idea that she has to be a certain way, think a certain way or believe a certain way because of her race which is understandable. Basically, she does not care for the idea that her race gets to define who she is as a person. She has a problem with elves that think it does and thinks it leads to a them versus us mentality as well as shaming people who are not enough like they should be. Sera has no interest in the past, only in the now.

Solas: "It is a shame, Sera, that you were denied an elven life. Even one as patchwork as the Dalish interpretation. "
Sera: "Who said I was?"
Solas: "Were you not orphaned young and raised by humans? "
Sera: "Ooooh! You think the only reason I'm not elfy is because I had no choice? Poor me, right?"
Sera: "Well, I've seen. I know. "Elven life" is backwards and boring."
Solas: "It is said that we lived at a pace that sustained us for... ages."
Sera: "Well you go "sustain" yourself. It sure doesn't sound like living."

She's also not written, in my opinion, to be right on everything. She's written to be a character with opinions that fits her personality and background. In Sera's case, this also explores a different viewpoint that Sera expresses her strongly but that does not mean that it is a view point that the writers think is the absolute correctest and bestest one.

Example: As I've said, Sera does not care for the idea that her race gets to define who she is a person but she actually displays a prejudice towards the Dalish. Her first reaction to seeing a Dalish Inquisitor during her recruitment mission is displeasure that they are an elf and that she hopes they're not too "elfy": "So you followed the note well enough. Glad to you see you are aaaand you're an elf. Well, hope you're not one too elfy-"

She makes presumptions about whom the Dalish Inquisitor is as a person. If the Dalish Inquisitor romances Solas then Sera assumes that their relationship is due to them both being elves and if not intended as a joke, that they both want babies for the reason reason: "The elf always takes the elf so that banging bits will mean something." "Oh, come on. Drop 'em and rebuild the empire. Phwoar!"

To Sera, Lavellan and Solas are together first and foremost because of their race. It's not that Lavellan fell in love with Solas because she might consider him a charming and interesting person. Oh no, no, Lavellan is only interested in Solas because he's an elf and she wants elven babies because Lavellan thinks that'd give her life more meaning*. I don't even think Sera ever has dialogue where she asks what Lavellan sees in Solas.

Despite hating prejudices, Sera is very prejudious including towards Dalish people and as far as I know, she dosen't care to learn if she's wrong about people that she makes presumptions about. Heck, the Lavellan clan openly trades with humans and have a mutually respectful relationships with, at least, the ones that they trade with. They are also still trying to preserve their culture and history. By the end of the personal quest involving them, the Keeper can even sit on the council of the city state Wycome in the Free Marches alongside an Alienage elf.

Note: *My Mahariel would have verbally torn Sera a new one if she'd assumed that she was only with Zevran because he was an elf. Oh god, she might have physically torn her one if she'd made that assumption about her and Tamlen!

Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 15:48:47 GMT by shechinah

shechinah
N5

Ser Barksalot - Hiatus

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 2,584 Likes: 4,343

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 16:07:12 GMT

Quote

Post by shechinah on Dec 17, 2016 16:07:12 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 14:27:16 GMT lobselvith8 said:

Dec 17, 2016 8:34:38 GMT gervaise21 said:

You can also ask why Jaws of Hakkon didn't even bother to condemn Drakon for forcibly converting people to his religion or for wiping out thousands (at the very least) of innocent people, instead choosing to condemn the elves for not implicitly trusting the imperialist ruler of Orlais. Ameridan is a less a character and more a mouthpiece to try and sway fans away from disliking Drakon by not focusing on the atrocities that he committed, and instead blaming the elves (hence why you have Cassandra and Sera chime in to blame the elves).

Are you referring to Emperor Kordillus Drakon or Emperor Kordillus Drakon II? The latter was the former's son who became emperor after the death of his father. It was him who, near the end of his life, aided Divine Renata in the Exalted March against the Dales. This is one of his last acts as emperor and he ruled in about sixty years. Kordillus Drakon I was long dead by the time of the Exalted March against the Dales.

Inquisitor Ameridan disappeared during the reign of emperor Kordillus Drakon I so he'd have no way what of knowing what happened until the Inquisitor informs him that the Dales have fallen and even then, he does not know how it happened, only that it did.

Inquisitor Ameridan: "Andaran atish'an. I am glad Drakon's friendship with our people has remained strong."

Inquisitor Lavellan: "It has not. Drakon's son, Kordillus the Second, destroyed the Dales."

Inquisitor Ameridan: "Drakon's son..."

lobselvith8
N3

Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496

Can Dalish inquisitor believe Maker and elven gods exist? Dec 17, 2016 19:26:11 GMT

Quote

Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 17, 2016 19:26:11 GMT

Dec 17, 2016 15:47:00 GMT shechinah said: