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Post by Hrungr on Oct 8, 2016 16:34:05 GMT
Well, Inquisitor Ameridan was Dalish and revered both the Maker and the Elven gods, so there is precedent.
In the game though, it is tricky to straddle both sides. It doesn't handle that well. I've always firmly placed myself on one side of the fence or the other.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 8, 2016 18:01:55 GMT
Actually if you are Dalish and say you are open minded about whether or not you believe in the Maker, Cassandra expresses surprise. You cannot win because if you say you believe in your own gods, she asks if there is not room in your faith for one more. This always had me confused because I thought it was the Chantry that insisted that the Maker was the only god. If they were okay with people believing in both, what was the problem back at the time of the Dales? There is a difference between Chantry dogma and the open views of a singular person, Cassandra. She can be more accepting, even if the Chantry is not. Happens all the time in the real world. The game is limited in its dialogue options because it's a game. I don't know if Cassandra is as accepting of the Dalish faith as initially believed. She insults the Elven beliefs at the Temple of Mythal if you take her along.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 18:19:09 GMT
Inquisitor Ameridan is Dalish and he accepts both the Elven gods and the Maker. So, yeah, you can do the same for a Dalish Inquisitor.
It really depends on how you play the game and shape your character's story.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2016 18:27:06 GMT
My Lavellan believe rather the Elven Pantheon, but does not reject the Maker. He's not a theologian, just a mage, but more "elfy", than Sera, and more open minded (what not too hard...)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 8, 2016 19:37:54 GMT
The thing is that Dalish lore teaches that Elgar'nan was the first born of the Sun and the earth. So both of these things, the sun and the earth, already existed before he came into being. If you believe in cause and effect, as the Dalish no doubt do, then you have to concede that there must be a First Cause that created the world. This is why there is room in their belief system for the Maker as the source of all life.
In one of the oldest passages of the Chant, Andraste refers to the Maker as the Wellspring of All, the Voice of Creation and the World-Maker, the latter term clearly being shortened subsequently to just the Maker. It is also notable that in one of the Hymns she refers to the Fade as the Beyond, which is what the Dalish call it.
I still maintain that the Dalish were likely quite happy to acknowledge the Maker as the source of all things until the Chantry started to insist that the Maker was the only god and only their interpretation of the Chant was the valid one. Then because the Chantry, founded by the grandson of a Tevinter Altus, was insisting that they should abandon their gods and worship only their own deity, just as the Imperium once forced them to acknowledge only the Old Gods, the Dalish dug their heels in and rejected the Maker along with the Chantry.
If the distinction could be drawn between the Maker as the source of all life and the deity that the Chantry promotes, I'm sure the Dalish would have no trouble in acknowledging him. In a way the Dalish rejected the Maker in much the same way as the Chantry erased Shartan from history, for political reasons. Separate the Creator of all from the Chantry and belief is no longer a problem. After all, the Canticle of Shartan was translated from a Dalish oral tradition and in it Andraste says to Shartan "Truly the Maker has called you, just a he called me to be a light for your People." This is clearly what the Dalish taught in the years after their death together and what the Dalish believed.
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Post by githcheater on Oct 8, 2016 19:54:50 GMT
Is there a difference between "The Maker" and "The Creator"? ... same god - different religions?
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 9, 2016 3:20:06 GMT
Ask Ameridan, he did.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 9, 2016 7:37:07 GMT
Ameridan existed more than 800 years before the events of DAI. A lot has happened and changed in that time, mainly how the Elves were driven out of Halamshiral by Andrastian Humans. A City Elf might worship the Maker but a Dalish Elf post-Halamshiral exile would not.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 9, 2016 7:51:47 GMT
Ameridan's beliefs are peculiar, particularly in the light of the story that he was friends with Drakon, who Ameridan says wants simplicity of worship.
Having read the parts of the Chant released with WoT2, I cannot find any claim in there by Andraste that she was in fact the Maker's bride. He offers to take her away from the sorrows of the world but this seems more of a test to me, to see if she is genuine about wanting help for her people, rather than earlier appeals to the Maker where the individual simply wanted to advance their own power. Andraste refuses to abandon her people, so the Maker gives her his commission, which is to pass on his wisdom to the world. I do wonder if the Bride of the Maker was something that did grow out of local fertility cults.
Now the Dalish have never denied that Andraste was a prophet for her people (this was stated back in DAO). If you read the Canticle of Shartan, Andraste's words there to Shartan confirm this belief. She says that they have both been called to be a light for their people by the Maker. So effectively Shartan is to the elves what Andraste is to the barbarians. The mission, though, is clearly to inspire people to break free of their chains and bring freedom to Thedas. This would seem reflected in Dalish beliefs to this day. "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit." This could have been the battle cry of Shartan himself. So to the elves of the Dales, Shartan was their prophet of the Maker and therefore it follows they must have believed in the Maker as a deity. The words of Andraste to Shartan had to be a genuine reflection of the elves' faith because they ran contrary to everything to the Chantry claimed about her being the sole prophet of the Maker and his bride, who gave Drakon his commission to spread the faith.
Then you have Ameridan, whose beliefs seem to fit neither Drakon's view of things, with the Maker as the sole deity and Andraste as his consort (which is necessary for his vision that he was appointed to his role of Blade of the Faith by Andraste), or the Dalish view of things with Shartan as their spiritual leader. It is an odd mix of the two.
It is as though the writers wished to make the leaders in the Dales appear the unreasonable ones, when really they were simply the elven equivalent of all the human cults to Andraste and the Maker that Drakon eliminated on his rise to power, and thus felt under threat from a power that was behaving very much like Tevinter (and whose leader was even related to them). Ameridan seems intended to represent the more open minded Dalish who are prepared to accommodate the Maker to their beliefs, and yet the faith he demonstrates in Ghilan'nain as having the same status as Andraste, would on the face of it seem to be entirely contradictory to the faith that Drakon was enforcing on everyone else. Forming an alliance against a common foe, I can understand, but would Drakon really have put Ameridan in charge of the Inquisition if these beliefs were so contrary to the faith it was promoting? If the members of the Inquisition found Ameridan's faith acceptable, then why didn't they object to being placed under Drakon's Chantry that opposed such beliefs? From what Ameridan says about Drakon wanting him to make people less fearful by putting him in charge, it would seem it was a very cynical move on Drakon's part using Ameridan in that way, so people think because Ameridan holds the beliefs he does, Drakon must be less of a monster than they thought.
Ameridan's words about Drakon seem to show that he was well aware that Drakon was removing all variants to the faith in favour of his own and that he was intent on expanding his empire by the sword. Why on earth then did Ameridan consider him his friend? Drakon had wiped out all rival cults of Andraste with bloodshed, even when people had not resisted the advance of his army. Surely he could see that his compatriots were right and they were going to come into conflict eventually? The intervention of the 2nd Blight merely delayed things. It is also understandable why the Dalish, who value freedom above everything else, would no longer feel they could worship a deity that seemed to support a regime that denied freedom of thought, removed the elves from the country they had been given so they could be free and placed the captured elves in compounds within their cities, where they were not permitted to leave without permission and forced them to worship their deity.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 9, 2016 8:09:51 GMT
Ameridan's beliefs are peculiar....*snip* This. Ameridan's beliefs seem acceptable and the norm of his time until one examines the time period during which he lived and the people he lived around. I would argue that Ameridan is an anomaly when it comes to faith, since the other Dalish Elves most definitely did not believe the same way as he did. On a tangential note, I genuinely hate Kordillus Drakon - He is a complete mess. Calenhad as well as Darinius are both far better Human leaders and Human nation founders. If we are speaking of generalities and using the Law of Averages, then no, Dalish Elves would not worship the Maker even though they respect Andraste. Whether they believe in the Maker or not is irrelevant. The average Dalish Elf is probably indifferent to the Maker, which is fair when you consider that the Maker is an indifferent god.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Oct 9, 2016 8:12:34 GMT
Mine believe in the elven gods BUT there are some dialogue that insinuates she believes in the maker when talking to viv the first time, she talks about having the power to change everything bla bla bla and there's this option "No one should have this power" and my freaking elven says "NO ONE SHOULD PRETEND TO KNOW THE WILL OF THE MAKER" Wtf. Ugh. Had to reload. Thanks for ruining my role playing Biower. I hate this fucking dialogue wheel. Ah, the endless wonders of paraphrasing! Something Bioware has improved, but are still unwilling to completely fix, for some reason (just have the line appear in the subtitle if you hover over an option for a second, problem solved). But nooooo About that line in particular, I never chose it, and I have to say I'm surprised, because that's not at all what I thought "No one should have that power" meant. I thought it would be something like "No one person should have so much power", nothing religious. Kind of dumb for roleplay, too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 9, 2016 8:25:22 GMT
I genuinely hate Kordillus Drakon too. It is hardly surprising that Orlais was a country founded by him. Since I read the whole history associated with his rise to power and his creation of the Chantry, it has only confirmed me in my stance that I refuse to be associated with that faith. From what Cassandra says, I am like Varric. I believe in the Maker as the Creator deity and Andraste as an inspirational leader but I wouldn't step inside a Chantry unless they made me. As you might guess, I prefer disbanding the Inquisition rather than repeating history and placing it under the control of the Chantry, regardless of my feelings about the current Divine as a person. Putting the Seekers of Truth under the Chantry instead of retaining them as an independent organisation was where it all went wrong before.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 9, 2016 8:33:18 GMT
I genuinely hate Kordillus Drakon too. It is hardly surprising that Orlais was country founded by him. Since I read the whole history associated with his rise to power and his creation of the Chantry, it has only confirmed me in my stance that I refuse to be associated with that faith. From what Cassandra says, I am like Varric. I believe in the Maker as the Creator deity and Andraste as an inspirational leader but I wouldn't step inside a Chantry unless they made me. Truly ? I think Chantries are excellent places to make love. Not on the regular but once it a while it does spice things up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 9, 2016 10:57:45 GMT
So long as it was empty. Even if we were out of sight, I'd find it really difficult to get into it with some woman prattling on about the Chant in the background. I made the mistake of choosing to make the Skyhold Garden a Chantry Garden on just one occasion because I was romancing Cassandra and thought it would make her happy. Never again. Not only did I have to hear the constant chant when in the garden but every time I went to the war room as well. It was too much and I still don't know what benefits I got out of it. At least with my peaceful herb garden I got extra elf root!
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 9, 2016 16:04:11 GMT
^ All of them are primarily cosmetic upgrades; the game does state this. The main exception is the herb garden, since you get the additional pots. For the Chantry garden, you also apparently unlock a war table operation. You also unlock different banner crowns for each choice. That's pretty much it. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Major_Upgrades
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 19:36:17 GMT
My Lavellan believe rather the Elven Pantheon, but does not reject the Maker. He's not a theologian, just a mage, but more "elfy", than Sera, and more open minded (what not too hard...)
Lol, my Lavellan's optimism ended during Trepasser. I would like to think he was the exact same thing, but he liked Sera though (and Vivienne. And Vivienne only liked him because he allied with the Templars amongst other things).
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Post by derwen on Nov 13, 2016 13:59:02 GMT
My Dalish inquisitor follow the avvar gods and I have an explanation for this in the story, but mostly is because it's the only religion in DA universe that makes sense to me, so there is a way to explain almost everything with a little of imagination.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 13, 2016 23:44:51 GMT
Well, Inquisitor Ameridan was Dalish and revered both the Maker and the Elven gods, so there is precedent. In the game though, it is tricky to straddle both sides. It doesn't handle that well. I've always firmly placed myself on one side of the fence or the other. I wouldn't classify Ameridan as Dalish (I think Addai had the right idea to label him a syncretist given what he says about wanting to end up at Andraste's side). I don't think the typical Dalish would have any reason to believe in the Maker given the history between the Dalish and the Chantry of Andraste - the People are nomadic because their religion is criminalized under Chantry law and they can come under attack from Andrastians (which is why Clan Lavellan travels between the territorial boundaries of the Free Marches - to try and prevent humans from attacking them since the Marchers are hesitant to risk causing a war with a neighboring city-state by venturing into their territory). The Dalish acknowledge Andraste as a war leader in their histories, but not as a messianic figure. Is it possible for someone from one of the clans to follow the Maker? Sure. Is it likely given the history between the two groups? I'm highly doubtful.
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Post by Destructive Deer on Dec 13, 2016 23:59:14 GMT
I genuinely hate Kordillus Drakon too. It is hardly surprising that Orlais was country founded by him. Since I read the whole history associated with his rise to power and his creation of the Chantry, it has only confirmed me in my stance that I refuse to be associated with that faith. From what Cassandra says, I am like Varric. I believe in the Maker as the Creator deity and Andraste as an inspirational leader but I wouldn't step inside a Chantry unless they made me. Truly ? I think Chantries are excellent places to make love. Not on the regular but once it a while it does spice things up. And now I really hope there's a Thedosian equivalent to "leaving the church before the singing begins" Leaving the Chantry before the Chant begins?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Dec 14, 2016 0:00:19 GMT
Doesn't the chant outright say if you worship the maker, you can't worship other gods
Also isn't it possible to headcanon that a dalish inquisitor is a city elf that joined the dalish?
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Post by xerrai on Dec 14, 2016 2:21:13 GMT
Doesn't the chant outright say if you worship the maker, you can't worship other gods Also isn't it possible to headcanon that a dalish inquisitor is a city elf that joined the dalish? Yes and no. While there is precedent in the Chant of light to condemn false gods (notably by referencing the Old gods as false gods, and the part of the verse that claims there is but one god), it is not uncommon for the wording and context to allow a certain amount of malleability when it comes to intent. A good example of this is how Maleficar are blood mages even though the part of the Chant that decries Maleficar forbids no particular form of magic. For the instance of false gods though, the Andrastian and Dalish have different interpretations of what constitutes a "God" are completely different. With the Creators being depicted as being born from the universe/other gods as opposed to predating all things like the Maker. So theoretically an argument that the creators and Maker could coexist, although it may require that the Creators may be 'lesser' gods in comparison to the Maker that predates them. Needless to say though, the Andrastian Chantry of today won't even hear of it. Most likely they already have documents and treatises forbidding the worship of other spirit/draconic-like gods on account for how the Old Gods were instrumental in starting the blight and offending the Maker. It is also very possible that Creator-worship already has treatises and documents in the Chantry about how it should not be tolerated (likely around the time Dales fell and the elves were forced to convert). In fact I'm pretty sure the "truce" where the alienages were established for the elves as they gave up creator worship may actually have a physical copy somewhere (I presume, hard to imagine that the Orlesians did not put paper behind it).
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Post by vit246 on Dec 14, 2016 3:59:08 GMT
Syncretism is lame. Don't be an undecided boob. Pick your god and stick with it like a spine.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 14, 2016 16:49:06 GMT
Doesn't the chant outright say if you worship the maker, you can't worship other gods Also isn't it possible to headcanon that a dalish inquisitor is a city elf that joined the dalish? The Chantry of Andraste doesn't invite the worship of other gods. The Chant outright says 'there is but one God', and aside from the missionaries who go out to try and convert people away from their indigenous faith, you have Andrastian historians like Genitivi who dismiss other gods as false outright. A Dalish elf who adopted vallaslin? I'd figure that he or she would be fairly committed to the Dalish culture at that point. Admittedly, the game does have an absence of elven dialogue as a Dalish protagonist (you invoke Andrastian terms like 'demons' rather than strictly using 'spirits', you don't use elven terms like 'Beyond', you don't use 'shemlen' to refer to humans, ect.) but it seems that the Dalish option was intended to be distinct from the Andrastian perspective that comes with playing as an Andrastian noble or an Andrastian Circle mage.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 14, 2016 16:53:32 GMT
Doesn't the chant outright say if you worship the maker, you can't worship other gods Also isn't it possible to headcanon that a dalish inquisitor is a city elf that joined the dalish? The Chantry of Andraste doesn't invite the worship of other gods. The Chant outright says 'there is but one God', and aside from the missionaries who go out to try and convert people away from their indigenous faith, you have Andrastian historians like Genitivi who dismiss other gods as false outright. A Dalish elf who adopted vallaslin? I'd figure that he or she would be fairly committed to the Dalish culture at that point. Admittedly, the game does have an absence of elven dialogue as a Dalish protagonist (you invoke Andrastian terms like 'demons' rather than strictly using 'spirits', you don't use elven terms like 'Beyond', you don't use 'shemlen' to refer to humans, ect.) but it seems that the Dalish option was intended to be distinct from the Andrastian perspective that comes with playing as an Andrastian noble or an Andrastian Circle mage. To believe the Maker don't meant believe/accept the Chantry. To believe the Maker don't meant to be Andrastian.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 14, 2016 18:52:13 GMT
The Chantry of Andraste doesn't invite the worship of other gods. The Chant outright says 'there is but one God', and aside from the missionaries who go out to try and convert people away from their indigenous faith, you have Andrastian historians like Genitivi who dismiss other gods as false outright. A Dalish elf who adopted vallaslin? I'd figure that he or she would be fairly committed to the Dalish culture at that point. Admittedly, the game does have an absence of elven dialogue as a Dalish protagonist (you invoke Andrastian terms like 'demons' rather than strictly using 'spirits', you don't use elven terms like 'Beyond', you don't use 'shemlen' to refer to humans, ect.) but it seems that the Dalish option was intended to be distinct from the Andrastian perspective that comes with playing as an Andrastian noble or an Andrastian Circle mage. To believe the Maker don't meant believe/accept the Chantry. To believe the Maker don't meant to be Andrastian. The Chantry of Andraste is the dominant religion of the land, so it's the most likely source of hearing about the Maker and the Andrastian faith. But given what the Dalish deal with - their religion is criminalized under Chantry law, Andrastian humans are a constant threat to them, and they live a life of hardship simply to remain free - I honestly see little reason why any Dalish would believe in the Maker. It's one thing to talk about Andrastian elves who have only known the Andrastrian faith (aside from those who follow 'the old ways' in secret), it's another for followers of an entirely different faith to adopt a god from a religion that has been nothing but a source of hardship for them. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it makes very little sense for most Dalish.
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