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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 7, 2018 21:08:21 GMT
Your "arguments" nothing. You ignore every proofs. And now: stop it! ** And stop it he will. That went too far so I've been in contact with Dusk, and it's been dealt with accordingly. Further to Arcadia's note: This thread exists because a small group of users couldn't refrain from derailing other threads only tangentially related to their argument. It resulted in the locking of another thread already. The fact that this thread was created to 'contain' a bizarrely fractious argument does not absolve participants of their obligations to adhere to the forum rules. If you can't keep personal attacks out of your posts, do not post here. It is that simple. If you see - or are the target of - a personal attack, report it using the report function or PM a moderator. Do not attempt to "handle it" yourself.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 7, 2018 21:22:10 GMT
Reporting is just not my style. Sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 21:24:19 GMT
Reporting is just not my style. Sorry. But you can always message one of us if you ever feel the need. That goes for everyone btw.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 9, 2018 18:35:13 GMT
Sorry, dearheart, but that's not what she says. She says she has an obligation to try it. Not an obligation to do it to everyone, or to charge off recklessly. She is being cautious with something she doesn't truly know, particularly since the only person who would know is dead. You don't seem to grasp that. Nothing in the codex, as far as I know, states that the Circle -MUST- have a First Enchanter. ** Comment removed due to rules violation - ArcadiaGrey I agree with Cassandra's caution approach to the tranquility cure, provided that more research is put into it. But I do have to disagree with you with the First Enchanter bit. While there is no codex that explicitly states that the Circles MUST have a First Enchanter, that doesn't instantly mean that it should be allowed to not have one. That's like sayin the Templar Order can/should function without a Knight Commander just because it is not explicitly stated that they have to have one. Or that the Chantry can be without Grand Clerics. It's not about the fact that an organization can run without these positions, it's that they shouldn't be run without these positions. It's not an honorary position like Archemage or even a functional position like the Archivist. The First Enchanter holds several responsibilities and powers that are downright necessary for a healthy, functioning Circle. It is intended to both protect the mages and be the voice for the mages of thier tower, as well as adding safeguards to ensure that Templars can't overstep. Such as calling an apprentice in for a harrowing, making a mage tranquil, serving as a voice for the tower at certain College of Magi meetings, etc. Unless Meredith was willing to allow these First Enchanter powers to be transferred to the mages of lesser ranks (like Senior Enchanters) then she was essentially going to make those powers/safeguards void. Removed. And given her already draconic policies, it doesn't exactly inspire hope that Meredith wanted the First Enchanter position gone just because "the Circle doesn't need one".
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 9, 2018 19:55:24 GMT
Sorry, dearheart, but that's not what she says. She says she has an obligation to try it. Not an obligation to do it to everyone, or to charge off recklessly. She is being cautious with something she doesn't truly know, particularly since the only person who would know is dead. You don't seem to grasp that. Nothing in the codex, as far as I know, states that the Circle -MUST- have a First Enchanter. ** Comment removed due to rules violation - ArcadiaGrey I agree with Cassandra's caution approach to the tranquility cure, provided that more research is put into it. But I do have to disagree with you with the First Enchanter bit. While there is no codex that explicitly states that the Circles MUST have a First Enchanter, that doesn't instantly mean that it should be allowed to not have one. That's like sayin the Templar Order can/should function without a Knight Commander just because it is not explicitly stated that they have to have one. Or that the Chantry can be without Grand Clerics. It's not about the fact that an organization can run without these positions, it's that they shouldn't be run without these positions. It's not an honorary position like Archemage or even a functional position like the Archivist. The First Enchanter holds several responsibilities and powers that are downright necessary for a healthy, functioning Circle. It is intended to both protect the mages and be the voice for the mages of thier tower, as well as adding safeguards to ensure that Templars can't overstep. Such as calling an apprentice in for a harrowing, making a mage tranquil, serving as a voice for the tower at certain College of Magi meetings, etc. Unless Meredith was willing to allow these First Enchanter powers to be transferred to the mages of lesser ranks (like Senior Enchanters) then she was essentially going to make those powers/safeguards void. Removed. And given her already draconic policies, it doesn't exactly inspire hope that Meredith wanted the First Enchanter position gone just because "the Circle doesn't need one". But there's no reason why that can't be handled by some sort of Council of senior Enchanters. Plus, if someone doesn't want the position, that makes it hard to fill.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 10, 2018 9:42:23 GMT
If the Chantry was like the Church of the Eternal Fire, I would've sympathize with Anders.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 10, 2018 9:45:38 GMT
Fiction is open to interpretation of the reader just like any other art form. Except in fiction we go by the words written, sometimes the authors leave their or parts open to interpretation or deliberately vague.
Like I said before, personal interpretation is one thing; no one is saying you have to like or agree with an author's work. You might even like it despite the creator, in a "So Bad It's Good" variety. What I am talking about is when some people knowingly ignore the author's own words on their intent in order to appropriate the work into whatever they prefer. Even when the writer specifically states that they meant X, they will argue that they actually meant Y. Even with the writers themselves . Arguing that Anders' civilian casualties should have been in the game proper? Fair enough. Arguing that they never intended to imply that innocents died from his action, despite writer Tweets to the contrary? Nope .
It's not about censorship, but honesty and truth. William Luther Pierce II wrote The Turner Diaries as a sincere fantasy and recruiting tool to his hateful ideology. If someone enjoys the book ironically, that's their right (and no account for taste). But it was never intended as satire.
I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also found such losses acceptable. Oh, wait... Westerners really love pacifists, don't they?
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Post by xerrai on Aug 10, 2018 13:00:58 GMT
[...] The First Enchanter holds several responsibilities and powers that are downright necessary for a healthy, functioning Circle. It is intended to both protect the mages and be the voice for the mages of thier tower, as well as adding safeguards to ensure that Templars can't overstep. Such as calling an apprentice in for a harrowing, making a mage tranquil, serving as a voice for the tower at certain College of Magi meetings, etc. Unless Meredith was willing to allow these First Enchanter powers to be transferred to the mages of lesser ranks (like Senior Enchanters) then she was essentially going to make those powers/safeguards void. Removed. And given her already draconic policies, it doesn't exactly inspire hope that Meredith wanted the First Enchanter position gone just because "the Circle doesn't need one". But there's no reason why that can't be handled by some sort of Council of senior Enchanters. Plus, if someone doesn't want the position, that makes it hard to fill. You mean aside from having a clear chain of power and command? That alone would be sufficient reason when members of a Circle is more prone to squabbling over certain issues and different views on policy when a clear decisive action is required. Particularly in Circles that are heavily divided or are otherwise politically engaged. Having a position that trumps or otherwise holds massively sways the Senior Enchanters essentially gives the FE power to make calls when needed. But there are even more reasons for Kirkwall's case though. Namely that they wouldn't be sufficient in certain areas. Now don't get m wrong, Senior Enchanters help the FE all the time with thier managerial duties, and it is presumably they who take over these duties when a FE unexpectedly dies or has to leave the tower for an extended period of time (like when congregating in Cumberland). But if it was just about managerial duties, then just about any council of reasonably educated schucks could do it. But that's not all a FE is supposed to do, and is ultimately why they rallied/voted for Orsino as they did. The reason Orsino got the FE vote, and the main reason they continued to rally behind him (along with other mages) is that he fulfilled a responsibility that his predecessor and peers were either unwilling or unable to do: standing up against Meredith for mage rights. World of Thedas makes note that the main reason Meredith advocated for a vacant FE seat was because she believed the Circle ran fine "without the interference of Maceron". But Orsino became thier advocate, something that Meredith does not like too much, since the game makes heavy implications that she effectively bullied potential advocates into compliancy and submission. It doesn't matter how intelligent or good-intentioned a council is, if they are not willing to be advocates for the mages of thier tower that alone will make them insufficient in doing some of the First Enchanter's duties.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 10, 2018 22:56:41 GMT
The surest way to stop an organisation from doing anything useful is to appoint a committee to run it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 6:46:22 GMT
The surest way to stop an organisation from doing anything useful is to appoint a committee to run it. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this statement on general principles, because appointing a committee to run an organization rather than picking just one leader is the easiest way to prevent that one leader from abusing his power. Though since the templars are a military order, subject to the chain of command, you can only go so far doing that to them. Therefore, I suppose the mages do need just one leader if their leadership is to form a decent counterbalance against the Knight-Commander, rather than letting her de facto run the Circle.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 11, 2018 7:20:40 GMT
The surest way to stop an organisation from doing anything useful is to appoint a committee to run it. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this statement on general principles, because appointing a committee to run an organization rather than picking just one leader is the easiest way to prevent that one leader from abusing his power. Though since the templars are a military order, subject to the chain of command, you can only go so far doing that to them. Therefore, I suppose the mages do need just one leader if their leadership is to form a decent counterbalance against the Knight-Commander, rather than letting her de facto run the Circle. I was mostly being facetious.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 9:36:24 GMT
I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this statement on general principles, because appointing a committee to run an organization rather than picking just one leader is the easiest way to prevent that one leader from abusing his power. Though since the templars are a military order, subject to the chain of command, you can only go so far doing that to them. Therefore, I suppose the mages do need just one leader if their leadership is to form a decent counterbalance against the Knight-Commander, rather than letting her de facto run the Circle. I was mostly being facetious. I thought it was funny.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 12, 2018 0:47:25 GMT
I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this statement on general principles, because appointing a committee to run an organization rather than picking just one leader is the easiest way to prevent that one leader from abusing his power. Though since the templars are a military order, subject to the chain of command, you can only go so far doing that to them. Therefore, I suppose the mages do need just one leader if their leadership is to form a decent counterbalance against the Knight-Commander, rather than letting her de facto run the Circle. I was mostly being facetious. Oh. Well, I'd guessed you were being kinda facetious, I'd just thought you were also being kinda serious. Whoops.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 12, 2018 1:32:16 GMT
I was mostly being facetious. Oh. Well, I'd guessed you were being kinda facetious, I'd just thought you were also being kinda serious. Whoops. Well I was also being kind of serious. Placing all the authority over an organization in the hands of a single person can easily lead to tyranny, but a group of people will always be less efficient. So it really depends on the nature of the organization, and the problems it faces. I think in the case of Meredith, she very transparently wanted to get rid of the position of first enchanter, because holding that position is the only way a person can conceivably challenge her authority, and a committee of high-ranking mages would likely waste time debating how to react to her latest bullshit, while she continues to implement it with impunity (because we all know Elthina won't do anything to stop her).
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 9, 2018 21:05:25 GMT
So who exactly are supposed to protect innocent mundane citizens when Abominations and/or psychotic mages go on rampages? There will never be enough "good" Mage Cops since mages are a genetically recessive minority, so that's out. If bringing down the Veil does make all survivors mages, then the previous mages are no longer special snowflakes, but just more spoiled nobles and layabouts that need to get real jobs . Or do all normals who had nothing to do with mage oppression need to pay along with the ones that actually did? That simple self defense, when against a mage, is now automatically a hate crime ?
Oh really? What if the "mandatory and protected" Gay Knight in Shining Armor opposes your decisions ? Or are your PCs automatically perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them are evil by default ? If templars ever actually did anything to protect "mundane citizens", you might have a point. But they don't do that. From the moment of their conception, they have always been a private army built to safeguard the interests of the chantry. Off the top of my head, I know of several templars who prove this assertion objectively false: Ser Otto from Origins, who needed our help to save the Denerim Alienage from the demons in the orphanage. Emeric in DA2, who tried to stop Quentin, even when he thought it just a normal serial killer and not necessarily a blood mage. Thrask and Keran, who worked to oppose Meredith and foster better cooperation between mages and templars. Ser Maurevar Carver, who helped Malcolm and Leandra escape and was well respected among mages. Ser Delrin Barris, once freed from Lord Seeker Lucius and Envy's influence, became a heroic example for the Inquisition. Evangeline de Brassard, even when she left the Order, still fought for what templars should be. Yes, these are unfortunate exceptions. But saying that no one can do the job of templar correctly, or that the Order cannot be improved because of the corrupt ones, is a false dichotomy.
I wasn't referring to, nor do I defend the current Circle system. My own personal take is that it needs massive reforms, but given how chaotic and destructive magic, untrained and/or irresponsible mages, spirits and demons are in Thedas, I don't know if complete and unrestricted mage freedom is realistic. This is Dragon Age, there are no perfect solutions for anyone, anywhere. The best you can get is bittersweet.
In any event, I was referring specifically to when mages go bad in the general populace. Like I said, there are not enough other mages to effectively police themselves over such large areas, and lyrium enhanced soldiers are the only viable solution. Do you have any alternatives for when unstable mages are mind raping people into becoming their slaves, blowing up city blocks, summoning and/or becoming demons?
Fair enough, it was wrong of me to assume you cared about the GKISA one way or the other. However, your position still works from the assumption that no good and heroic characters would ever have any issues with your actions, regardless of personalities or context.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 9, 2018 21:55:02 GMT
Fair enough, it was wrong of me to assume you cared about the GKISA one way or the other. However, your position still works from the assumption that no good and heroic characters would ever have any issues with your actions, regardless of personalities or context. Walter, my actions in video games always align (as much as they possibly can, given the inherent limitations of the medium), with my personal real-life opinions about what is morally correct, so it will always be impossible for me to perceive dissenting characters as being "good and heroic". If they were good and heroic, they would agree with me, you see?
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 9, 2018 22:18:23 GMT
Fair enough, it was wrong of me to assume you cared about the GKISA one way or the other. However, your position still works from the assumption that no good and heroic characters would ever have any issues with your actions, regardless of personalities or context. Walter, my actions in video games always align (as much as they possibly can, given the inherent limitations of the medium), with my personal real-life opinions about what is morally correct, so it will always be impossible for me to perceive dissenting characters as being "good and heroic". If they were good and heroic, they would agree with me, you see? The danger with this is how it can put you into an absolutist mindset; "I am always right, and anyone who disagrees with me is automatically wrong. Because I believe them, my philosophies will always be correct." When you refuse to consider that else's perspective and experiences might give them unique knowledge and insight, you throw away resources, not to mention potential friends and allies. Seriously, you've never had someone you respect advise against a particular action and say to yourself, "Whoah, if John Doe thinks this a bad idea, maybe I should reconsider"? When you assume you always right, you becoming rigid and static. You stop learning, stop growing.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 9, 2018 22:34:03 GMT
Walter, my actions in video games always align (as much as they possibly can, given the inherent limitations of the medium), with my personal real-life opinions about what is morally correct, so it will always be impossible for me to perceive dissenting characters as being "good and heroic". If they were good and heroic, they would agree with me, you see? The danger with this is how it can put you into an absolutist mindset; "I am always right, and anyone who disagrees with me is automatically wrong. Because I believe them, my philosophies will always be correct." When you refuse to consider that else's perspective and experiences might give them unique knowledge and insight, you throw away resources, not to mention potential friends and allies. Seriously, you've never had someone you respect advise against a particular action and say to yourself, "Whoah, if John Doe thinks this a bad idea, maybe I should reconsider"? When you assume you always right, you becoming rigid and static. You stop learning, stop growing.
I have had my opinion swayed by convincing arguments from people I respect, yes. But none of those people were characters in BioWare games. Generally speaking, I find the "logic" and/or "moral philosophy" and/or whatever you want to call it, in BioWare games to be extremely lacking. It is simplistic and reductive by design, like a series of Trolley Problems, forcing me to always pick from one of two options, when in reality, there are dozens. Obviously this is, to an extent, a constraint of the medium; the writers can't possibly accommodate every solution conceived by every player. However, there are many instances, while playing BioWare games, where I found my inability to say or do a particular thing in a given situation to be so incredibly egregious that it lessened my enjoyment of the game considerably.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 9, 2018 22:38:15 GMT
In any event, I was referring specifically to when mages go bad in the general populace. Like I said, there are not enough other mages to effectively police themselves over such large areas, and lyrium enhanced soldiers are the only viable solution. Do you have any alternatives for when unstable mages are mind raping people into becoming their slaves, blowing up city blocks, summoning and/or becoming demons? I'd hate to be 'that guy' since I myself am an advocate for either Circle reform or alternatively a College of Enchanters with a clear set of responsibilities and limitations but...the templars are far from the only solution Thedas has in terms of combatting magic. Even if we ignore the several cultures that have dealt with magic without templars with a combination of spirit communities, communal responsibility and (apparently for the avaar) knowledge on removing spirits from mages, there is evidence that there are ways to deal with magic without subjecting oneself to lyrium addiction. The comics reveal the existence of non-lyrium based warriors who can specialize in fighting mages (magekillers), who was himself trained by a trainer in Tevinter. And even earlier, we know that a portion of chevalier training is geared toward fighting spell-casters. Ideally these anti-mage methods would be researched and practiced more often, but i'm not going to pretend that templars are the only potential solution. Still though, the thing the templars really has going for them is how lyrium gives them anti-magic powers and how imbibing an addictive drug is easier than going through a super specialized form of training. Lyrium also doubles as a form of liquid courage that makes an ingested damn near fearless in the face of demons (whereas even seasoned veterans can presumably sh*t thier pants). It ultimately results in a set of soldiers that I honestly wouldn't mind having around to combat demons...but I'm not going to dismiss that other means do exist out there and should in fact be encouraged. But while i'm ok with templars being around to react to rampant magic, I'm not too ok with them being around to prevent or investigate it. Or at least not always. Thier investigative capabilities become incredibly suspect when that lyrium addiction starts kicking in. Even if we ignore the large potential for paranoid, anti-mage bias on account of lyrium's 'liquid courage' effect, it is no secret that prolonged lyrium use results in an addled mind--and contrary to what some believe, templars are not immediately taken out of service for it. Reduce a templar's lyrium intake and they can become a nervous wreck only thinking about thier next lyrium hit so hands can stop being so cold or the nightmares can stop. Do you really expect that guy to remain as an impartial, objective investigator when a magic crime scenes comes abound? Or what about this guy, who, forgets his own god**nm name and makes note about how Senior templars have a look "that cloudy look in their eyes". Now I'm not saying that all templars are incapable of doing a proper investigation when magic is involved. But there seems to be a high chance of investigations being sporadically botched or incorrectly conducted on account of lyrium literally altering thier mental state at any given time with what is likely a wide variety of variance among the templars themselves. I might be ok keeping them around to combat demons, but keeping them around as the sole/main power over investigating mage incidents seems like a recipe for either abuse or ineptness for an unknown amount of cases. I would at least advocate for additional or alternative methods to dealing with magic abuse instead of just relying on templars.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 9, 2018 22:53:06 GMT
If templars ever actually did anything to protect "mundane citizens", you might have a point. But they don't do that. From the moment of their conception, they have always been a private army built to safeguard the interests of the chantry. Off the top of my head, I know of several templars who prove this assertion objectively false: Ser Otto from Origins, who needed our help to save the Denerim Alienage from the demons in the orphanage. Emeric in DA2, who tried to stop Quentin, even when he thought it just a normal serial killer and not necessarily a blood mage. Thrask and Keran, who worked to oppose Meredith and foster better cooperation between mages and templars. Ser Maurevar Carver, who helped Malcolm and Leandra escape and was well respected among mages. Ser Delrin Barris, once freed from Lord Seeker Lucius and Envy's influence, became a heroic example for the Inquisition. Evangeline de Brassard, even when she left the Order, still fought for what templars should be. Yes, these are unfortunate exceptions. But saying that no one can do the job of templar correctly, or that the Order cannot be improved because of the corrupt ones, is a false dichotomy.
I wasn't referring to, nor do I defend the current Circle system. My own personal take is that it needs massive reforms, but given how chaotic and destructive magic, untrained and/or irresponsible mages, spirits and demons are in Thedas, I don't know if complete and unrestricted mage freedom is realistic. This is Dragon Age, there are no perfect solutions for anyone, anywhere. The best you can get is bittersweet.
In any event, I was referring specifically to when mages go bad in the general populace. Like I said, there are not enough other mages to effectively police themselves over such large areas, and lyrium enhanced soldiers are the only viable solution. Do you have any alternatives for when unstable mages are mind raping people into becoming their slaves, blowing up city blocks, summoning and/or becoming demons?
Fair enough, it was wrong of me to assume you cared about the GKISA one way or the other. However, your position still works from the assumption that no good and heroic characters would ever have any issues with your actions, regardless of personalities or context.
Evangeline – for example – helped to destroy the White Spire's phylactery chamber of the White Spire, left the corrupt order and protected people. Not as a Templar, as a person. The freedom isn't anarchy. The mages able to police themselves – they are the best on it – but for the trust and effectiveness best if they working with non-mages. Why is this so hard? What means "complete and unrestricted mage freedom"? Nobody has complete and unrestricted freedom. Nobody wants it, just the fools. This is the anarchy.
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 11, 2018 21:53:52 GMT
If templars ever actually did anything to protect "mundane citizens", you might have a point. But they don't do that. From the moment of their conception, they have always been a private army built to safeguard the interests of the chantry. Off the top of my head, I know of several templars who prove this assertion objectively false: Ser Otto from Origins, who needed our help to save the Denerim Alienage from the demons in the orphanage. Emeric in DA2, who tried to stop Quentin, even when he thought it just a normal serial killer and not necessarily a blood mage. Thrask and Keran, who worked to oppose Meredith and foster better cooperation between mages and templars. Ser Maurevar Carver, who helped Malcolm and Leandra escape and was well respected among mages. Ser Delrin Barris, once freed from Lord Seeker Lucius and Envy's influence, became a heroic example for the Inquisition. Evangeline de Brassard, even when she left the Order, still fought for what templars should be. Yes, these are unfortunate exceptions. But saying that no one can do the job of templar correctly, or that the Order cannot be improved because of the corrupt ones, is a false dichotomy.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Lothering.
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Post by Lazarillo on Oct 12, 2018 20:06:10 GMT
The poll option confuses me.
Wynne certainly wasn't imprisoned for life. Or Ines. Or the Mage "adventurer" who was on his way to report Apostates to the Chantry. ...or Finn, for that matter (who just really wanted to stay in the tower).
Where does one ever get the idea that the "classic" Circle in DAO involves being "imprisoned for life" when if anything, it has more examples of the other way around?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2018 20:15:39 GMT
The poll option confuses me. Wynne certainly wasn't imprisoned for life. Or Ines. Or the Mage "adventurer" who was on his way to report Apostates to the Chantry. ...or Finn, for that matter (who just really wanted to stay in the tower). Where does one ever get the idea that the "classic" Circle in DAO involves being "imprisoned for life" when if anything, it has more examples of the other way around? It is, when you don't know, you will be free. And some prisoners also able to leave prison with permission, temporarily, for a task for example, like Wynne or Finn. Wynne should request permission from Irving when she was ~50 and already proved her trustworthiness enough. It is life imprisonment. And we didn't speak about that they are the property of the Chantry, just like their children. If that child not being a mage, then probably the Chantry makes them an enemy of his/her parents: a Templar. And not even know, his/her parents were mages.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 12, 2018 21:39:32 GMT
The poll option confuses me. Wynne certainly wasn't imprisoned for life. Or Ines. Or the Mage "adventurer" who was on his way to report Apostates to the Chantry. ...or Finn, for that matter (who just really wanted to stay in the tower). Where does one ever get the idea that the "classic" Circle in DAO i nvolves being "imprisoned for life" when if anything, it has more examples of the other way around?Are most known mages outside of the tower though? In Origins we have mages like Wynne and Ines who gained permission, but they also show the majority of the mages still inside the Circle tower. Mages like Finn, Godwin, Leorah, Sweeny, etc. And we know that even with the blight coming in the Chantry only allowed so many mages to be join the army despite the King's request. Then in DA2 we barely set foot in the Circle itself but we know by reputation that the mages of the Gallows are practically always confined to the Circle or Circle courtyard. Then in DAI the Circles were dissolved so barely anything to go on there. The only noteworthy information on Circle confinement in that game mostly came from Vivienne, whose likely bias is...noteworthy depending on who you ask. She claims most were quite permissive. And this seems to match up with some of the novels where the Montsimmard Circle permit apprentice mages out every month to perform maintenance on some of thier more expensive districts that use glowstones. But then we get NPCs like Lysas in Redcliffe who said "but i'll be locked up for the rest of my life" implying that in fact that Circles outside Orlais are more interested in seeing thier mages isolated to the Circle towers. Like with everything else pertaining to the Circles, the policy of Circle release likely varies region from region. But the Circle in DAO pretty much set up the basis of mages being mostly isolated in Circles. The magi origin has lines like "But the Circle is as much a prison as a refuge", "this gilded cage is all you know" and the class selection in character creation explicitly states that "mages live lives of isolation, locked away from the world they threaten". So clearly the reality of isolationism is there and very real. It's just a matter for how long this lasts that we can't seem to agree on.
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Post by Lazarillo on Oct 12, 2018 22:10:20 GMT
Are most known mages outside of the tower though? I think it probably depends on the Circle (you noted Kirkwall, which is not excusable for lots or reasons, but seems to be an exception anyway). However, there's at least some "mathematical evidence" that points to it being so in Ferelden (which is "classic" DAO), yeah. Fire up Origins (or don't, 'cause I already did and counted). Go to the Circle Tower. Now, the first floor is the Apprentice Quarters, for students who aren't Harrowed Mages yet. See the bunks? Assume one for each student living (and, admittedly, forced to live in the tower). There are 84. Now, go up to the second. This is where the Harrowed Mages live. Lets count how many individuals they are prepared to quarter there. The number there is 6. So, yeah, either a lot of Mages die in training or the like, or most of them leave the tower upon completing their training, because less than 10% of the people being held in Kinloch Hold are Harrowed Enchanters.
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