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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 14:46:18 GMT
Because people think, the freedom is a modern idea... Was that addressed at me? No, it was addressed to Pessimistpanda and to everyone, who think, the freedom's a modern idea, and to everyone, who likes it, and thinks this addressed to them – so if you want...
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 15:21:29 GMT
1. Most of the Circle Towers were prisons before. 2. The education's not a selfless gift – the mages are dangerous and even useful. 3. Bunk beds, without separation? It's no privacy. 4. The mages don't have a key to their cells (and no, these aren't spacious rooms) – I didn't even saw a door on these in the Kinloch Hold, and in the Gallows and in the White Spire the templars locked them in their cells, if they thought the mages are in too rebellious mood. 5. Did you saw the calls in the basement? Cole, Anders, Rhys were closed in such a cell – or similar. 6. They can't have a family – and the love is forbidden/not recommended. A peasant can have family and love – even Fenris and Varania spoke about their family... and Orana. (No, I don't want to say, the slavery's better.) 7. Golden cage still a cage – and I wouldn't classify in luxury category such a place where rapes, lobotomizes etc happens. By the way: there are luxury slaves too – but this fact doesn't make the slavery acceptable. (That internment camps were temporary – if I know well. The Circles for a life.) 1) Yes, and? I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. 3) I never said the education was selfless. I said it existed and was of a good quality: it doesn't just include learning how to control and channel magic but also herbology, history and such. 4) I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. I never mentioned any cells nor did I say anything about their size or conditions. I made it clear I was only referring to the sleeping quarters and those are spacious rooms. The apprentice quarters The mage quarters Try to compare the size of the space between the bunk beds in the apprentice quarters to the space between the beds in the internment camp photograph. Two photographs of different families in one of the US internment camps. A screenshot of the apprentice quarters 5) Yes, and? I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. 6. I never even touched on that subject. What does that have to be with my post? 7) Yes, I know what the term "golden cage" means. I should since I used it and said I considered it a valid thing to compare the Circles too. It's in the same sentence where I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. (Yes, I know that too) Note: Pictures are tagged as spoilers due to size.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 15:28:03 GMT
1. Most of the Circle Towers were prisons before. 2. The education's not a selfless gift – the mages are dangerous and even useful. 3. Bunk beds, without separation? It's no privacy. 4. The mages don't have a key to their cells (and no, these aren't spacious rooms) – I didn't even saw a door on these in the Kinloch Hold, and in the Gallows and in the White Spire the templars locked them in their cells, if they thought the mages are in too rebellious mood. 5. Did you saw the calls in the basement? Cole, Anders, Rhys were closed in such a cell – or similar. 6. They can't have a family – and the love is forbidden/not recommended. A peasant can have family and love – even Fenris and Varania spoke about their family... and Orana. (No, I don't want to say, the slavery's better.) 7. Golden cage still a cage – and I wouldn't classify in luxury category such a place where rapes, lobotomizes etc happens. By the way: there are luxury slaves too – but this fact doesn't make the slavery acceptable. (That internment camps were temporary – if I know well. The Circles for a life.) 1) Yes, and? I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. 3) I never said the education was selfless. I said it existed and was of a good quality: it doesn't just include learning how to control and channel magic but also herbology, history and such. 4) I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. I never mentioned any cells nor did I say anything about their size or conditions. I made it clear I was only referring to the sleeping quarters and those are spacious rooms. The apprentice quarters The mage quarters Try to compare the size of the space between the bunk beds in the apprentice quarters to the space between the beds in the internment camp photograph. Two photographs of different families in one of the US internment camps. A screenshot of the apprentice quarters 5) Yes, and? I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. 6. I never even touched on that subject. What does that have to be with my post? 7) Yes, I know what the term "golden cage" means. I should since I used it and said I considered it a valid thing to compare the Circles too. It' sin the same sentence where I said I said it was valid to compare the Circles to prisons. (Yes, I know that too) Note: Pictures are tagged as spoilers due to size. These comparisons aren't perfect – but undoubtedly the prison's the best, while the interment camps can relate too.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 15:29:25 GMT
Why are people bringing up the "middle ages" as if that's at all relevant? Because Dragon Age uses a fantasy setting heavily inspired by medieval times or at least, the common perception of what the medieval times were like. That becomes relevant when it comes to subjects such as the lack of physical privacy in the Circles because whereas today, it would be seen as denying someone a basic right and done to degrade them, it would not be seen as unusual in that "time". Cyrion's house seem to demonstrate this. As such, the lack of complete privacy that mages experience is not the result of dehumanization by the Chantry but just a result of the times they live in. It is about the dehumanization, not "the times"... It's clear in the game.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 15:32:57 GMT
These comparisons aren't perfect – but undoubtedly the prison's the best, while the interment camps can relate too. I hold that it is still not comparable. I grant that there are some similarities between the US concentration camps and the Circles but quite a few conditions differ and the way they do is very significant to any comparison. In my opinion, the Circles can be compared to things such as a gilded cage and a luxurious prison (with all that implies like abuse and rape) but not to things like concentration camps.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 15:33:58 GMT
It is about the dehumanization, not "the times"... It's clear in the game. Are you going by your own interpretation or is it expressed in some way in one of the official mediums like the games or books?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 15:36:02 GMT
These comparisons aren't perfect – but undoubtedly the prison's the best, while the interment camps can relate too. I hold that it is still not comparable. I grant that there are some similarities between the US concentration camps and the Circles but quite a few conditions differ and the way they do is very significant to any comparison In my opinion, the Circles can be compared to things such as a gilded cage and a luxurious prison (with all that implies like abuse and rape) but not to things like concentration camps. I mentioned inernment camps. And in sime views much worse. The lobotomy, for example.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 15:37:26 GMT
I mentioned inernment camps. And I disagreed with your comparison to the internment camps. That was what prompted this whole exchange between us.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 15:41:17 GMT
It is about the dehumanization, not "the times"... It's clear in the game. Are you going by your own interpretation or is it expressed in some way in one of the official mediums like the games or books? All of them. Cullen, for example, speaks about, the mages aren't like people... I suppose this was a very popular view among them.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 15:43:36 GMT
Are you going by your own interpretation or is it expressed in some way in one of the official mediums like the games or books? All of them. Cullen, for example, speaks about, the mages aren't like people... I suppose this was a very popular view among them. They all talk about how the lack of room dividers between bunks beds is because of dehumanization? Well then, you should have no trouble finding quotes and videos to support your argument then.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 16:01:36 GMT
All of them. Cullen, for example, speaks about, the mages aren't like people... I suppose this was a very popular view among them. They all talk about how the lack of room dividers between bunks beds is because of dehumanization? Well then, you should have no trouble finding quotes and videos to support your argument then. And what proves your view? In the game were doors in the rooms (even in Gamlen's house). The Chantry deprives the mages of their children – and of the close, intimate relationships. They're treated as monsters, cursed, guilty ones – innocently. This is dehumanization.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 16:11:58 GMT
And what proves your view? In the game were doors in the rooms (even in Gamlen's house). There were none in Cyrion's house. You could argue that was because it might have been a repurposed warehouse (which would account for its size) but there were none in Haven. Villager house in Haven Note: Pictures are tagged for size, not spoilers.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 2, 2018 16:18:29 GMT
A nice luxury internment camp, I suppose. (No.) So not like an internment camp then. A luxurious place where people who are born as they are are kept away from the general population... really does seem like a luxurious internment camp. If you have to have one (and in this case I'd argue you do) then it should be luxurious, but I don't think that stops it from being an internment camp.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 2, 2018 17:06:29 GMT
Calpernia and Varania both benefit from and support the system, and there's likely many more just like them. They have unearned privilege just in being mages, they haven't joined the mundane underground, they support power and hope to get some for themselves. They have a choice so they're fair game. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Calpernia a slave? Hell I think Dorian even mentioned in my dialogue with him last night that even mages can be slaves or might as well have been without the right connections. Anyways to the argument at large: Rehashing something I've probably brought up before but the situation with the mages in Thedas is complicated and incredibly grey, more so then most real life issues and more so then most examples of fiction I can think of (the psi corp from Babylon 5 being probably the best 1 to 1 comparison). The fact is that a mage, no matter how well meaning, can becomg an abomination. They can fail and be possessed or, as we have seen, demons can just possess them and use them by force. Of course the Chantry doesen't help the situation any by many of the practices it does which often leaves mages vulnerable... But. I think it behooves all of us to keep two things in mind. A. The Chantry and the Circles are trying to find the best solution they can. Its an imperfect solution and its a situation that can lead to plenty of corruption on both sides, but its also an imperfect and dangerous world in Thedas. B. While Mages DO deserve their freedom and the same rights as any other citizen of a Southern Nation the regular citizens of Thedas have every right to not be blasted by fireballs. Now there are bad actors...on both sides. But there are also plenty of good people out there and plenty of people who are idealists, to borrow the term from Divine Justinia, that I believe that the situation is salvagable without a violent revolution and without bringing the entire system down. I believe reform is what is needed, surprisingly small reform too given the circumstances. And also I believe that the Chantry, as an organization, is not evil. Just trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I think I have to disagree about the part where the Chantry was looking for the best solution. There's too many moments where they overreacted to the mages for seeking anything more than the status quo. During events in the White Spire, mages tried to stay on the defensive until a Templar killed one of them before lashing out lethally. Dairsmuid was annulled for practicing Rivaini techniques and interacting with their families, not because they had rampant abominations devouring everyone. A teacher railed about how poorly unprepared a deceased student was and how they were willing to give up their room and pay out of their own pocket for decent tutors in weaponry but was demoted by the First Enchanter. Cole's negligent death was covered up by Templars. When Meredith went on a suppressive reign of terror, the Seekers who were aware of her actions sided with her, feeling that it was necessary because of mages practicing blood magic and not because Meredith was feeding into the behavior. All these little details build up to a sense that adjustments and improvements were being actively rejected for the sake of some sense of control over a group who kept acting up for reasons they had no idea why (even though it was flat out spelled out for them). Now, I can't condone Anders' actions. It got innocent bystanders involved. I do think that Kirkwall was sitting on a powder keg and it was inevitably going to erupt. But while I preferred that Anders had sought a different, non-violent way, I also think Anders is one of many "Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda" cases that could have been staved off had the Chantry been taking better care of the mages. Simply changing the rule about letting them see their families would have made a huge difference if not have preempted the rebellion.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 17:25:49 GMT
So not like an internment camp then. A luxurious place where people who are born as they are are kept away from the general population... really does seem like a luxurious internment camp. If you have to have one (and in this case I'd argue you do) then it should be luxurious, but I don't think that stops it from being an internment camp. It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 2, 2018 17:33:08 GMT
A luxurious place where people who are born as they are are kept away from the general population... really does seem like a luxurious internment camp. If you have to have one (and in this case I'd argue you do) then it should be luxurious, but I don't think that stops it from being an internment camp. It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think there ever has been a luxurious internment camp, but not all of the negative conditions of an internment camp follow from the lack of luxury. The mere fact that people are in an internment camp is already a bad thing. I wouldn't be all that much less disturbed about the US's camps if they had been as luxurious as the Circles.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 17:33:34 GMT
A luxurious place where people who are born as they are are kept away from the general population... really does seem like a luxurious internment camp. If you have to have one (and in this case I'd argue you do) then it should be luxurious, but I don't think that stops it from being an internment camp. It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Especially since the original person said that the mages in the Circles not only had it worse than those in the American internment camps, but had it worse than the peoplke in Nazi concentration camps or Soviet gulags.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 17:35:36 GMT
It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Especially since the original person said that the mages in the Circles not only had it worse than those in the American internment camps, but had it worse than the peoplke in Nazi concentration camps or Soviet gulags. Don't twist my words!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 17:36:36 GMT
Especially since the original person said that the mages in the Circles not only had it worse than those in the American internment camps, but had it worse than the peoplke in Nazi concentration camps or Soviet gulags. Don't twist my words! I didn't. I even asked for clarification if you meant that and you said unambiguously yes.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 2, 2018 17:39:02 GMT
It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Especially since the original person said that the mages in the Circles not only had it worse than those in the American internment camps, but had it worse than the peoplke in Nazi concentration camps or Soviet gulags. Hm. I'm honestly not sure whether or not the Circles are worse than the American internment camps. They're more luxurious, but American internment camps didn't have the Harrowing or Tranquility. I do think saying they're worse than Auschwitz or Cannibal Island is just false, though.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 17:39:08 GMT
I didn't. I even asked for clarification if you meant that and you said unambiguously yes. No. I said I dislike this comparison, but if you force that, then I think, it can relate. No more and no less. And I wrote "internment camps".
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 17:57:43 GMT
e'v It fits the definition of an internment camp, yes, but not the reality. As far as I know, there has never been an internment camp that could be considered luxurious which is why I consider the conditions to be just as important as the definition. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think there ever has been a luxurious internment camp, but not all of the negative conditions of an internment camp follow from the lack of luxury. The mere fact that people are in an internment camp is already a bad thing. I wouldn't be all that much less disturbed about the US's camps if they had been as luxurious as the Circles. But all internment camps had negative conditions beyond the deprivation of freedom due to fear-mongering. Like I said, I have never known of an interment camp where that wasn't the case and so I consider the living conditions to be just as much a part of what makes an internment camp as the deprivation of freedom is. That's where I feel we disagree: you consider the definition alone to validate the comparison and I do not which is why I feel we have to agree to disagree because I do see your point. I just don't agree with it. Prisons, on the other hand, is defined almost solely by a deprivation of freedom. This includes prisons that are focused on rehabilitation: their schedule tries to mimic what a person's daily life would be like and they allow their inmates the same kind of comforts and routines. But as a warden of such a prison once pointed out: a prison can be as pleasant as possible but it is still a prison and a prisoner is still denied freedom. That's a problem I've always had with non-rehabilitation prisons especially American prisons. A person is sentenced to some time in prison and the deprivation of freedom is the punishment yet so many treat what criminals suffer like beatings, rape and other deplorable conditions as if that's a part of the sentence instead of the criminal abuse it is and should be regarded as. Rant aside, my point is that a prison, by definition and by reality, is a place that denies a person their freedom. Said person do not need to be guilty for the place they are held to be labeled a prison. To be honest, that is also *another reason for why I disagree with comparing the Circles to the interment camps because mages are not political enemies, they are not prisoners of war and they are not enemy aliens. That is not why they are being held at the Circles and if we loosen the definition then we've more or less ended up with the same definition as a prison. Note: *I didn't mention this before because as I recall, another poster already provided an elaborate post on this aspect of the comparison so I saw no need to.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 18:00:54 GMT
Hm. I'm honestly not sure whether or not the Circles are worse than the American internment camps. They're more luxurious, but American internment camps didn't have the Harrowing or Tranquility. I can provide more examples of what life was like in the American internment camps, if you like but I think the examples I mentioned paint a pretty good picture especially the incident I mentioned of how a soldier thought it best to shoot an old man simply because he kept walking after he told him to stop.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 2, 2018 21:11:27 GMT
Yeah, it's true. Remember that it's an active Chantry as well, and Anders would have no idea how many people were in it at the time. But the apologists will enjoy the deaths. Because they like the concept of killing those who don't agree with you. As opposed to Chantry apologists who pretend that deaths and rampant abuses are just straight-up not happening? Thank you for so eloquently proving my point.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 2, 2018 22:37:42 GMT
Looking back at all this, I'm beginning to think one of the biggest mistakes David Gaider and company made when creating Thedas was making magic related to genetics. The whole "mages as mutants" thing really distorted so many potential stories that still could have worked if magic was available to everyone. Individual rights versus the collective good, human potential versus human and technological and environmental abuses, expanding spiritual, intellectual and existential consciousness versus metaphors of drug addiction and mental health issues, the benefits and dangers of interacting alien mindsets (spirits and demons); these and so many others arcs could still have been explored without making magic inborn. They could have still had conflict with non mages over magic rewriting the laws of nature, only with the added drama that is this specific instance, it really is a choice whether to pursue magic or not. One of the the things that inspired the Chantry and Circle system was that Gaider hated how easily in Dungeons & Dragons mages could Charm people to obey them, and hardly anyone in-universe would care. Being able to control the elements and other minds is NOT the same as simply being a different race, religion, gender or sexuality, and so on. There is a deliberate power imbalance to those with and without magic, and the effects of it on those without, that cannot simply be dismissed as metaphorical bigotry. Myself, I partake of speculative fiction to explore what does not, cannot exist. If the story isn't going to follow through on the actual fantasy, what's the point? Honestly, it's one of the same things that made me wary of X-Men; aside from pandering to adolescent wish fulfillment and persecution, it also has a hypocritical superiority complex. Basically, "they hold us bask because deep down, they know we really ARE better than they are!" Maybe Solas should bring down the Veil after all . Then mages really will be just like everyone, boring and average and needing to get real jobs .
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