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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 22:56:14 GMT
Maybe Solas should bring down the Veil after all . Then mages really will be just like everyone, boring and average and needing to get real jobs .
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 22:59:14 GMT
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 2, 2018 23:43:43 GMT
Why are people bringing up the "middle ages" as if that's at all relevant? Because Dragon Age uses a fantasy setting heavily inspired by medieval times or at least, the common perception of what the medieval times were like. That becomes relevant when it comes to subjects such as the lack of physical privacy in the Circles because whereas today, it would be seen as denying someone a basic right and done to degrade them, it would not be seen as unusual in that "time". Cyrion's house seem to demonstrate this. As such, the lack of complete privacy that mages experience is not the result of dehumanization by the Chantry but just a result of the times they live in. "Heavily inspired" is a meaningless term, though, especially when BioWare has shown a willingness to make drastic changes. A major matriarchal religion would NEVER have existed in Medieval Europe, for instance. And the minute you add magic of any kind, you alter the environment to the point it becomes unrecognisable. And since the writers have the power to change anything and everything about the setting that they please, "because history!" is a useless argument for or against ANYTHING. You are correct that they may be using a common perception of the period, but that perception is already extremely inaccurate. As a work of modern media, produced by people who only have personal experience of the modern day, for an audience of people who ALSO only have experience of the modern day, Dragon Age provides far more relevance and insight into the kind of world we live in now. It has no actual relevance to the "middle ages", and the people who think it's accurately portraying that time period in any way are basing that perception on previous works of fiction, not on historical fact.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 2, 2018 23:47:08 GMT
As opposed to Chantry apologists who pretend that deaths and rampant abuses are just straight-up not happening? Thank you for so eloquently proving my point. Thank YOU for so eloquently proving MY point, that Chantry supporters consistently and disingenuously try to portray the issue as a mere difference in opinion, blatantly ignoring the plain and simple fact that the Chantry has gallons of blood on its hands.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 3, 2018 0:23:44 GMT
Thank you for so eloquently proving my point. Thank YOU for so eloquently proving MY point, that Chantry supporters consistently and disingenuously try to portray the issue as a mere difference in opinion, blatantly ignoring the plain and simple fact that the Chantry has gallons of blood on its hands. So that makes all the death mages causes okay, doesn't it? In the words of Solas, you simply lack the will to admit you want the blood on your hands.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 0:42:53 GMT
Thank YOU for so eloquently proving MY point, that Chantry supporters consistently and disingenuously try to portray the issue as a mere difference in opinion, blatantly ignoring the plain and simple fact that the Chantry has gallons of blood on its hands. So that makes all the death mages causes okay, doesn't it? In the words of Solas, you simply lack the will to admit you want the blood on your hands. It means I'm not going to attack mages for spilling LESS innocent blood than the Chantry, out of desperation for their own lives and freedom. When a system oppresses you by design, and is willing to inprison and kill you, every action you take against that system is automatically self-defense The Chantry is an aggressive military power that explicitly seeks to wipe out other faiths through genocide and war. They are no better than the Qunari, and I support anyone who seeks to take them down.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 3, 2018 1:02:54 GMT
So that makes all the death mages causes okay, doesn't it? In the words of Solas, you simply lack the will to admit you want the blood on your hands. It means I'm not going to attack mages for spilling LESS innocent blood than the Chantry, out of desperation for their own lives and freedom. When a system oppresses you by design, and is willing to inprison and kill you, every action you take against that system is automatically self-defense The Chantry is an aggressive military power that explicitly seeks to wipe out other faiths through genocide and war. They are no better than the Qunari, and I support anyone who seeks to take them down. LOL. That is not what self-defense means. And you don't know a damn thing about the qunari. Solas makes the difference explicitly clear. I wish you'd just stop with the pretense and admit what you are.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 1:11:06 GMT
It means I'm not going to attack mages for spilling LESS innocent blood than the Chantry, out of desperation for their own lives and freedom. When a system oppresses you by design, and is willing to inprison and kill you, every action you take against that system is automatically self-defense The Chantry is an aggressive military power that explicitly seeks to wipe out other faiths through genocide and war. They are no better than the Qunari, and I support anyone who seeks to take them down. LOL. That is not what self-defense means. And you don't know a damn thing about the qunari. Solas makes the difference explicitly clear. I wish you'd just stop with the pretense and admit what you are. Yeah, we all know YOU think self defense means approaching "suspicious" children with a gun already in your hand. Solas is prejudiced against everyone except the Ancient Elves. What distinction does he supposedly make between the Chantry and the Qunari, and why should I give a fuck what he thinks? Why don't you admit that you are predisposed to throw your support behind the Chantry because it is the closest equivalent in Thedas to White Christianity, while mages, dwarves and particularly elves are blatantly inspired by the struggles of minorites. And I bet it chaps your hide that the major religion of the game is run by women. Lol.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 1:36:03 GMT
Why don't you admit that you are predisposed to throw your support behind the Chantry because it is the closest equivalent in Thedas to White Christianity, while mages, dwarves and particularly elves are blatantly inspired by the struggles of minorites. And I bet it chaps your hide that the major religion of the game is run by women. Lol. Anyway
Someone call David Gaider to make him look at the fandom his creation spawned.
David Gaider didn't create Dragon Age. He wrote what other people told him to.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 3, 2018 1:48:03 GMT
LOL. That is not what self-defense means. And you don't know a damn thing about the qunari. Solas makes the difference explicitly clear. I wish you'd just stop with the pretense and admit what you are. Yeah, we all know YOU think self defense means approaching "suspicious" children with a gun already in your hand. Solas is prejudiced against everyone except the Ancient Elves. What distinction does he supposedly make between the Chantry and the Qunari, and why should I give a fuck what he thinks? Why don't you admit that you are predisposed to throw your support behind the Chantry because it is the closest equivalent in Thedas to White Christianity, while mages, dwarves and particularly elves are blatantly inspired by the struggles of minorites. And I bet it chaps your hide that the major religion of the game is run by women. Lol. Thank you for proving to me you never read the facts of the story. You just swallowed the propaganda. Solas is racist and prejudiced, yes. But that does not mean he cannot grasp the difference between the Chantry and the qunari. The truth is, I pity you.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 6:07:10 GMT
Yeah, we all know YOU think self defense means approaching "suspicious" children with a gun already in your hand. Solas is prejudiced against everyone except the Ancient Elves. What distinction does he supposedly make between the Chantry and the Qunari, and why should I give a fuck what he thinks? Why don't you admit that you are predisposed to throw your support behind the Chantry because it is the closest equivalent in Thedas to White Christianity, while mages, dwarves and particularly elves are blatantly inspired by the struggles of minorites. And I bet it chaps your hide that the major religion of the game is run by women. Lol. Thank you for proving to me you never read the facts of the story. You just swallowed the propaganda. Solas is racist and prejudiced, yes. But that does not mean he cannot grasp the difference between the Chantry and the qunari. The truth is, I pity you. Then enlighten me. Why is spreading doctrine through violence okay when the Chantry does it?
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Post by Sifr on Aug 3, 2018 11:31:05 GMT
It has the exact model of a monastery, and no surprise its under the umbrella of a religious group. Self governed, mandatory cloister and celibacy, little or no ownership of personal property, formed the earliest centers of education and learning. Mages aren't political enemies or prisoners either, as "internment camps" suggest. Perhaps most importantly, no one is born a mage. It isn't comparable to minorities like the Japanese or Jewish. Magic manifests in those of exceptional imagination and will, and only in those people, and the mages chose their exile to practice it. What are you even talking about? Just because magical ability does not manifest until childhood or early puberty, that doesn't mean that someone wasn't born a mage. Even Cullen refuses this notion in DA2, commenting that every day mages are born across Thedas, while those born a dozen years ago come into their powers.
I have absolutely no idea where you've gotten this idea that magic manifests in people with exceptional imagination and will? Especially when there are plenty of mages in Thedas that we've seen lacking both attributes (Jowan, Emile, etc). The lore has repeatedly stated that magic seems to be genetic and seems to run in families, which is why many nobles try to "breed out" those traits if they can. The Amell family of Kirkwall has such a tendency to produce mages in their family (despite their best efforts), it ended up being considered a "stain" on their lineage, as it prevented them securing marriages to any other noble houses. As for your assertion that mages aren't political enemies or prisoners, they most definitely are. The Chantry has deemed that all mages outside of the Circle are a threat to the public, thus making them political enemies of the Chantry and de facto enemies of the state. They even refer to these mages as "Apostates", a term that is defined as "someone who abandons or renounces a religious or political belief or principle".
Any mages that are found outside the Circle are immediately detained, with most who resist typically ended up being killed by the Templars. Upon being taken to the Circle, they have their blood taken to create a Phylactery, that can be used to track them should they attempt to leave without permission. Those who do attempt to escape often risk being killed should the Templars catch up with them, rather than being returned to the Circle in irons.
So I don't know how the Circle couldn't be more of an internment camp, given that your choices as a mage are to either submit to a lifetime of imprisonment or face execution? It's true that some mages can gain permission to leave the Circle, but it seems to only be allowing for temporary absences or assignments. The mages who often are granted this tend to be those with seniority, institutionalised or those considered trustworthy/loyal enough that they won't try to escape. (Or in the case of Vivienne, abuses their position as First Enchanter to grant herself a permanent get-out-of-jail-free card, while banking on the fact that she's sleeping with one of the most important men in Orlais to ensure that the Chantry/Templars stay off her back.)
They negotiated the circles. The Circle does not exist for political reasons no matter what anyone hellbent on some oppressor-oppressed victim dichotomy says. It's incredibly misleading to label it an internment camp. It eschews a more worthy comparison for one made up to fuel some overinflated sense of righteousness. In antiquity, the Alamarri Shamans existed among the people of their tribes without any problems, as do the Chasind and Avvar in modern times. Among the Dalish, their Keepers live among their tribes, even if they don't necessarily practice magic openly, while in Rivain, Seers are major figures within their communities.
The rise and spread of Andrastianism in the south seems to have played a role in mages suddenly becoming "problems" and pariahs in Thedas society, whereas beforehand they seem to have been treated as pillars of their (tribal) communities. There were of course other contributing factors (such as the Blight, etc), but the turning point for mages does seem to have been around the establishment of the Chantry.
(Funny how a religion that declares "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" and founded by a women who went to war with an empire run by mages, before being killed by said empire run by mages, somehow ended up having a huge problem with mages, eh?) To say that the Circle does not exist for political reasons is not only false, but ignores the entire history and reason behind why it was created in the first place. Between the Tevinter Imperium building their empire on magic, the Blights almost destroying the world and the rise of the Andrastian Chantry, there was widespread mistrust and fear towards mages at this point in time. This lead to mages forming their own communities apart from the rest of the general population, both for their own protection and so they could continue to practice magic in peace.
While it is true that some mages did agree to the formation of the Circle, it was largely because they were left with very little choice in the matter. The Nevarran Accord declared that the newly established Circles were to serve as a refuge for any mage who wished to submit to the Chantry (and Templar) oversight and authority... and a prison for any mage who refused. For those who already living in magical communities apart from the rest of society, not much had changed. For those who were forced to leave their families and loved ones behind to go live on an island somewhere... they no doubt felt rather differently about the whole affair.
While in theory, the Circle has always supposed to be autonomous and self-governing, in practice, the Templars have always been in charge and everyone knows it. This is best shown in the novel Asunder, when Fiona put forth the motion for independence before the College of Enchanters. In response, Seeker Lambert not only mocked the idea that the Chantry would ever allow the mages to right to make that decision, but accused everyone present of treason for even discussing the idea, before arresting everyone in attendance. If the mages weren't allowed the right to assembly or allowed to even discuss their own affairs without Chantry censure, how could the Circle claim to be truly autonomous? If the Chantry only allows the mages to think they have control and freedom to dictate their affairs, then the mages have been kept imprisoned under false pretenses for centuries. Is it any wonder why that was one of the straws that finally broke the camel's back?
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Post by shechinah on Aug 3, 2018 12:45:51 GMT
... As for your assertion that mages aren't political enemies or prisoners, they most definitely are. The Chantry has deemed that all mages outside of the Circle are a threat to the public, thus making them political enemies of the Chantry and de facto enemies of the state. They even refer to these mages as "Apostates", a term that is defined as "someone who abandons or renounces a religious or political belief or principle".
But that is not what makes someone a political enemy: the accusation of treason in some form or another is and that is not why mages were incarcerated in the Circles. Yes, an apostate is considered a threat to the public but that makes them a public enemy which is not a term synonym with the term political enemy. The official reason for why the Japanese-American citizens were being relocated to the internment camps was because it was believed they might conspire with Japan. The Nazi persecution of the Roma came down to the fact that they were nomadic and did not adhere to the concept of borders and nationalism in general. Since Hitler wanted there to be a nation for each group (Germany for Germans, France for French), he did not approve of this. This was also something he slandered the Jews with. The Nazi persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses was because they had a stance of not pledging allegiance to any nation and they banned military service thus they were sent to the concentration camps. The Nazis believed, however, that their faith was something that could be and so offered those being taken to the camps the chance to denounce their faith by signing a document and go into service for the country. Many refused and died in the camps. The Nazi persecution of the Jewish people is a bit more difficult to summarize but I'll try to do it with these two quotes: "For more than two decades the Jewish Bolshevik regime in Moscow had tried to set fire not merely to Germany but to all of Europe…The Jewish Bolshevik rulers in Moscow have unswervingly undertaken to force their domination upon us and the other European nations and that is not merely spiritually, but also in terms of military power…Now the time has come to confront the plot of the Anglo-Saxon Jewish war-mongers and the equally Jewish rulers of the Bolshevik centre in Moscow." - Adolf Hitler, 1941 "While National Socialism brought about a new version and formulation of European culture, Bolshevism is the declaration of war by Jewish-led international subhumans against culture itself. It is not only anti-bourgeois, it is anti-cultural. It means, in the final consequence, the absolute destruction of all economic, social, state, cultural, and civilizing advances made by western civilization for the benefit of a rootless and nomadic international clique of conspirators, who have found their representation in Jewry." — Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Party Congress in Nuremberg, September 1935
Essentially, the conspiracy theory of Judeo-Bolshevism (which held no basis in reality for the record)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 16:15:00 GMT
I always saw the closest real world comparison to the Circles as asylums like used for the insane way back when. People are sent there due to something not of their doing and something they will always have, they are there to protect both themselves from others and others from them, the facility is made to try to help them, a few patients are allowed to be released if they prove themselves, etc. Even the darker aspects have close similarities, like both doing lobotomies or people thinking everyone with those conditions should be sent there even if they haven't done anything and so on.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 16:45:08 GMT
I always saw the closest real world comparison to the Circles as asylums like used for the insane way back when. People are sent there due to something not of their doing and something they will always have, they are there to protect both themselves from others and others from them, the facility is made to try to help them, a few patients are allowed to be released if they prove themselves, etc. Even the darker aspects have close similarities, like both doing lobotomies or people thinking everyone with those conditions should be sent there even if they haven't done anything and so on. The old Asylums where the lobotomy was practice weren't better place than an internment camp... rather worse.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 16:54:34 GMT
I always saw the closest real world comparison to the Circles as asylums like used for the insane way back when. People are sent there due to something not of their doing and something they will always have, they are there to protect both themselves from others and others from them, the facility is made to try to help them, a few patients are allowed to be released if they prove themselves, etc. Even the darker aspects have close similarities, like both doing lobotomies or people thinking everyone with those conditions should be sent there even if they haven't done anything and so on. The old Asylums where the lobotomy was practice weren't better place than an internment camp... rather worse. Not saying it was better. Just saying that's the closest parallel to a real world institution I saw to the Circles rather than the others being discussed.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 3, 2018 18:15:32 GMT
DA2 changed the nature of tranquility for dramatic effect.
It shows the tranquil as having no free will, even though DAO and the books say otherwise. The tranquil do have their own opinions and will. They don't rebel because an emotionless person doesn't really care about anything.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 18:55:33 GMT
DA2 changed the nature of tranquility for dramatic effect. It shows the tranquil as having no free will, even though DAO and the books say otherwise. The tranquil do have their own opinions and will. They don't rebel because an emotionless person doesn't really care about anything. They changed it back to that way in DAI or at least combined them. We see this in scenes like the one with Avexis(I hope she is the first person cured by Cassandra).
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Aug 3, 2018 19:09:11 GMT
DA2 changed the nature of tranquility for dramatic effect. It shows the tranquil as having no free will, even though DAO and the books say otherwise. The tranquil do have their own opinions and will. They don't rebel because an emotionless person doesn't really care about anything. Was it "dramatic effect" or possibly due to mages being made tranquil against their will? The process might affect them differently if they aren't on board with the procedure, ie it might cause more harm/disability than if they have agreed to it ahead of time.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 3, 2018 20:48:29 GMT
Was it "dramatic effect" or possibly due to mages being made tranquil against their will? The process might affect them differently if they aren't on board with the procedure, ie it might cause more harm/disability than if they have agreed to it ahead of time. The conversation with Minaeve seems to imply that it applies to all Tranquil and not simply the ones turned against their will. Minaeve: "They don't have any emotions. They can barely take care of themselves. Can't defend themselves at all."
I rather dislike the change because I found the portrayal of Tranquils in Origins to be much more interesting and to have more depth. Owain felt like a person who lacked the ability to feel emotions but that didn't mean he ceased to feel human and that made him memorable to me despite how few interactions I actually had with him. Owain: “My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.”
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 20:52:47 GMT
Was it "dramatic effect" or possibly due to mages being made tranquil against their will? The process might affect them differently if they aren't on board with the procedure, ie it might cause more harm/disability than if they have agreed to it ahead of time. The conversation with Minaeve seems to imply that it applies to all Tranquil and not simply the ones turned against their will. Minaeve: "They don't have any emotions. They can barely take care of themselves. Can't defend themselves at all."
I rather dislike the change because I found the portrayal of Tranquils in Origins to be much more interesting and to have more depth. Owain felt like a person who lacked the ability to feel emotions but that didn't mean he ceased to feel human and that made him memorable to me despite how few interactions I actually had with him. Owain: “My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.”As I said above, DAI seems to have tried to combine both approaches. We have conversations like that with Minaeve, and yet Avexis clearly shows opinions when talking to Mother Giselle when the latter asks if she would want to have Tranquility reversed, saying right now she would prefer not too since with the Breach she would be very vulnerable to demons. Then of course there is Maddox killing himself for Samson despite that not being the pure logical choice.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 20:58:18 GMT
DA2 changed the nature of tranquility for dramatic effect. It shows the tranquil as having no free will, even though DAO and the books say otherwise. The tranquil do have their own opinions and will. They don't rebel because an emotionless person doesn't really care about anything. Was it "dramatic effect" or possibly due to mages being made tranquil against their will? The process might affect them differently if they aren't on board with the procedure, ie it might cause more harm/disability than if they have agreed to it ahead of time. Perhaps it may also be that the Rites performed in Kirkwall were more potent in recent years than those performed elsewhere causing the symptoms associated with being Tranquil to become more severe.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 3, 2018 21:02:53 GMT
As I said above, DAI seems to have tried to combine both approaches. We have conversations like that with Minaeve, and yet Avexis clearly shows opinions when talking to Mother Giselle when the latter asks if she would want to have Tranquility reversed, saying right now she would prefer not too since with the Breach she would be very vulnerable to demons(showing they recognize danger). Huh, I just looked it up and I never had that line of dialogue. I do think it was a mistake to try and combine the different approaches since they feel contradictory to each other. The Tranquil retain critical thinking as can be seen in the conversation with Avexis and yet Minaeve's conversation states that they are unable to take care of themselves. You know, since we're heading to the Tevinter Imperium in the next game and are unlikely to encounter Tranquil there, I really wish we could have had more opportunities to interact with Tranquils.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 3, 2018 21:05:46 GMT
I think its more a matter of in universe opinions on different phemnon. Minaeve probably has herown biases on the subject so she thinks of Tranquil as being defenseless doe eyed deer. There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise in universe, I mean hell you had a Tranquil give tacit approval to Rhys and co during the events of Asunder.
Its still creepy as hell though.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 3, 2018 21:07:35 GMT
As I said above, DAI seems to have tried to combine both approaches. We have conversations like that with Minaeve, and yet Avexis clearly shows opinions when talking to Mother Giselle when the latter asks if she would want to have Tranquility reversed, saying right now she would prefer not too since with the Breach she would be very vulnerable to demons(showing they recognize danger). Huh, I just looked it up and I never had that line of dialogue. I do think it was a mistake to try and combine the different approaches since they feel contradictory to each other. The Tranquil retain critical thinking as can be seen in the conversation with Avexis and yet Minaeve's conversation states that they are unable to take care of themselves. You know, since we're heading to the Tevinter Imperium in the next game and are unlikely to encounter Tranquil there, I really wish we could have had more opportunities to interact with Tranquils. Why would you expect not to see Tranquil there? Dorian tells us that they are. In fact, he says there are lots of Tranquil. I've no reason to believe he's lying about it. In the event of the contradiction between Minaeve and Giselle, I am tempted to side with Giselle. We know that a Tranquil will resist possession, which is why demons will usually seek a tree or something if they can't find a mage. It could be that the Tranquil merely focus on their tasks so intently they might forget to eat, like a crazy scientist enraptured in work, or something.
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