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Post by Sartoz on Sept 8, 2018 16:56:55 GMT
Well they're hardly likely to just tell people to get over it and suck up the co-op shooters Actually, they did, sort of: www.usgamer.net/articles/anthem-pax-west-interview-new-details-live-service Going back to the Fort Tarsis stuff for a moment, I think it's interesting that there's no content gated behind making the right narrative choices in single-player. What was that like, streamlining the narrative stuff? MD: What I want to make sure is that this is a game that appeals to a different audience than what we've seen before. It would be unfortunate if [players] were to run into a full on conversation wheel like from Mass Effect or Dragon Age and just hit full decision paralysis. Just go, 'I don't want to make the wrong decision.' It's interesting and can provide an interesting experience, if you're ready for it. And I think we're going to have a lot of people in Anthem that haven't been exposed to that, so in part this is a bit of an opportunity to expose them to the concept. And then hopefully, maybe in the future, this makes them open to more complicated branching choices. MG: Yeah, I mean the other way to put it is you can tell a great story with agency and great characters without something being a full-fledged RPG. Which is what anthem isn't. Anthem is not a full-fledged RPG, it's an action game with a lot of these elements. And we think that we're well positioned to be able to bring those elements in because we do have experience with the RPG stuff. But it doesn't mean it has to mimic it because it's trying to be its own thing.
A lot of people are in denial about that, but I don't know how Bioware could have said it any plainer. IT AIN'T AN RPG.
OK, we got that RPG claruty only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
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Post by Steelcan on Sept 8, 2018 17:14:56 GMT
Where did I say the game was going to be an RPG? I'm lamenting that it isn't going to be one, and it will inevitably suck balls just like the Division and Destiny.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2018 19:33:53 GMT
Actually, they did, sort of: www.usgamer.net/articles/anthem-pax-west-interview-new-details-live-service Going back to the Fort Tarsis stuff for a moment, I think it's interesting that there's no content gated behind making the right narrative choices in single-player. What was that like, streamlining the narrative stuff? MD: What I want to make sure is that this is a game that appeals to a different audience than what we've seen before. It would be unfortunate if [players] were to run into a full on conversation wheel like from Mass Effect or Dragon Age and just hit full decision paralysis. Just go, 'I don't want to make the wrong decision.' It's interesting and can provide an interesting experience, if you're ready for it. And I think we're going to have a lot of people in Anthem that haven't been exposed to that, so in part this is a bit of an opportunity to expose them to the concept. And then hopefully, maybe in the future, this makes them open to more complicated branching choices. MG: Yeah, I mean the other way to put it is you can tell a great story with agency and great characters without something being a full-fledged RPG. Which is what anthem isn't. Anthem is not a full-fledged RPG, it's an action game with a lot of these elements. And we think that we're well positioned to be able to bring those elements in because we do have experience with the RPG stuff. But it doesn't mean it has to mimic it because it's trying to be its own thing.
A lot of people are in denial about that, but I don't know how Bioware could have said it any plainer. IT AIN'T AN RPG.
OK, we got that RPG claruty only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
Pwning giant space bugs in your Iron Man suit with your bros, I guess.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 8, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing. "Story" covers a pretty wide variety of content. Destiny 1 has a "story", barely. DMC has a story. Hell, CoD has a story. So be more specific, what do you mean by story? If you mean a story like in ME or DA, it ain't gonna happen. But, unlike Destiny and Warframe, you're going to have the option to talk to NPCs and build relationships with them -- in first-person no less. Bioware is counting that as Bioware-style story. If you don't agree, that's your prerogative, but that's what they mean when they say story. And they also acknowledge that this hybrid is something that's pretty new and thus is difficult to compare to what they, or anyone else for that matter, has done before. That's what the hedging and "reading between the lines" stuff you are detecting is about. They can't say it's just another DA or ME-style story, that would be a lie.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Sept 8, 2018 21:25:39 GMT
you're going to have the option to talk to NPCs and build relationships with them -- in first-person no less. Bioware is counting that as Bioware-style story. That is a very strange definition of story.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 9, 2018 2:21:19 GMT
you're going to have the option to talk to NPCs and build relationships with them -- in first-person no less. Bioware is counting that as Bioware-style story. That is a very strange definition of story. Is it? I'd say that's at least half of the narrative content of ME and DA. The other half is the save-the-world or piss on Andraste's Sacred Ashes, kind of stuff. That stuff had to be sacrificed for the sake of an MP world that has to be shared by multiple players with differing opinions about what constitutes saving the world. Personally, as someone who was complaining on the DAI boards about spectacle creep and being sick of the Chosen One trope and wanting a story that didn't have to be a save-the-world epic but more personal, I'm liking this direction Anthem is taking a lot. Kind of a two birds with one stone solution, for me. Meaning, they had to amputate the safe-the-world stuff of necessity, since the world is gonna be shared with a million other people, but the side effect is that I get the smaller scale story I wanted anyway. Whether they can pull it off technically without it being a PITA remains to be seen. The segregated 1P and 3P perspectives is already one strike against. I don't mind either one, but stick with one, or let the player switch contextually, like for Bethesda games. Forcing one type of content to be one way and another to be the other, in the same game, is gonna make a lot of people nauseous. Literally.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 10, 2018 8:15:12 GMT
Actually, they did, sort of: www.usgamer.net/articles/anthem-pax-west-interview-new-details-live-service Going back to the Fort Tarsis stuff for a moment, I think it's interesting that there's no content gated behind making the right narrative choices in single-player. What was that like, streamlining the narrative stuff? MD: What I want to make sure is that this is a game that appeals to a different audience than what we've seen before. It would be unfortunate if [players] were to run into a full on conversation wheel like from Mass Effect or Dragon Age and just hit full decision paralysis. Just go, 'I don't want to make the wrong decision.' It's interesting and can provide an interesting experience, if you're ready for it. And I think we're going to have a lot of people in Anthem that haven't been exposed to that, so in part this is a bit of an opportunity to expose them to the concept. And then hopefully, maybe in the future, this makes them open to more complicated branching choices. MG: Yeah, I mean the other way to put it is you can tell a great story with agency and great characters without something being a full-fledged RPG. Which is what anthem isn't. Anthem is not a full-fledged RPG, it's an action game with a lot of these elements. And we think that we're well positioned to be able to bring those elements in because we do have experience with the RPG stuff. But it doesn't mean it has to mimic it because it's trying to be its own thing.
A lot of people are in denial about that, but I don't know how Bioware could have said it any plainer. IT AIN'T AN RPG.
OK, we got that RPG claruty only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
Warframe introduced special story missions at some point and they were generally very well received. Warframe isn't a RPG neither, they tell their story primarily with bits from boss fights, little events, NPC you meet on hubs and for the most part cinematic quests that feature high-quality music, sound and voice acting.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 10, 2018 18:56:37 GMT
OK, we got that RPG claruty only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
Can we argue/fight with/influence these characters. or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 11, 2018 2:05:45 GMT
OK, we got that RPG claruty only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
Can we argue/fight with/influence these characters. or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments. I'm not sure what the difference is. You can bond over arguments, can't you? That certainly seems to be the way to Dorian's heart. While I think there will be emotional extremes with NPCs, I suspect that those extremes and the set-ups to create them will be a lot of selling bonding moments. Which is pretty par for the course for Bioware stories anyway, isn't it?
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 11, 2018 18:40:36 GMT
Can we argue/fight with/influence these characters. or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments. I'm not sure what the difference is. You can bond over arguments, can't you? That certainly seems to be the way to Dorian's heart. While I think there will be emotional extremes with NPCs, I suspect that those extremes and the set-ups to create them will be a lot of selling bonding moments. Which is pretty par for the course for Bioware stories anyway, isn't it? It’s about player input in nature of relationships and of your own character. Can I get into major differences of opinion or equally agree with them. Setting up fixed extremes to drive movie bonding moments, that’s hardly rpg.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 11, 2018 21:53:01 GMT
I'm not sure what the difference is. You can bond over arguments, can't you? That certainly seems to be the way to Dorian's heart. While I think there will be emotional extremes with NPCs, I suspect that those extremes and the set-ups to create them will be a lot of selling bonding moments. Which is pretty par for the course for Bioware stories anyway, isn't it? It’s about player input in nature of relationships and of your own character. Can I get into major differences of opinion or equally agree with them. Setting up fixed extremes to drive movie bonding moments, that’s hardly rpg. I agree that’s not what I consider rpg, but it is very Bioware, isn’t it? You get the choices and relationship options the game allows you to have, and those are pretty limited.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 11, 2018 22:16:51 GMT
It’s about player input in nature of relationships and of your own character. Can I get into major differences of opinion or equally agree with them. Setting up fixed extremes to drive movie bonding moments, that’s hardly rpg. I agree that’s not what I consider rpg, but it is very Bioware, isn’t it? You get the choices and relationship options the game allows you to have, and those are pretty limited. I wouldn’t them previously as particularly limited. Whether anthem will change that is another matter.
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Post by regack on Sept 12, 2018 1:05:19 GMT
or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments. Oh blue rose of Illium...Let my broken bones build a wall around your garden, so you and the flower we planted together can grow safe and strong.Truth be told, the level of interaction with those NPCs in ME2/ME3 is very small... there really wasn't much there, but it's still something I remember. Granted, it had the rest of the game to help bolster that, and Anthem will have... shootin' stuff?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Ajer17327
XBL Gamertag: Ajer17327
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 12, 2018 2:26:53 GMT
or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments. Oh blue rose of Illium...Let my broken bones build a wall around your garden, so you and the flower we planted together can grow safe and strong.Truth be told, the level of interaction with those NPCs in ME2/ME3 is very small... there really wasn't much there, but it's still something I remember. Granted, it had the rest of the game to help bolster that, and Anthem will have... shootin' stuff? It's true the interactions with NPC's were pretty small, even chatting with your main squadmates were rather tiny with their selections. But we still remember them due to some great writing and because they honestly left a memorable impression. Here's hoping Anthem will continue that tradition and at least give some memorable interactions for us to like. Let's see, shootin' stuff, finding loot, flying, diving, finding lore mysteries, exploring some pretty creative locations, doing side missions, the chance of new content being automatically added... I'd say the game has enough to bolster the NPC interactions.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 12, 2018 3:11:28 GMT
or is it simply going to be them trying to use these npcs to sell story bonding moments. Oh blue rose of Illium...Let my broken bones build a wall around your garden, so you and the flower we planted together can grow safe and strong.Truth be told, the level of interaction with those NPCs in ME2/ME3 is very small... there really wasn't much there, but it's still something I remember. Granted, it had the rest of the game to help bolster that, and Anthem will have... shootin' stuff? My feelings on the first three Mass Effect games is that the majority of stuff that built relationships with companions and other NPCs were removed from the areas where there was combat, there might have been a handful of lines of dialogue that were inconsequential. It might be less areas where this happens so you have your mobile base and the Fort to have conversations instead of maybe the additional non-combat areas might not be there, but it always felt to me there was a talking area and then a shooting area and they never really mixed.
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bshep
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Sept 12, 2018 5:40:43 GMT
ME1, ME3 and MEA had quite a few conversations between the crew happening during the most action/exploration part of the game while ME2 was pretty devoid of it. However most of it happened inside the base ship or inside hub worlds, so it is no wonder Bioware is following a similar patern with this new game.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2018 19:40:49 GMT
It's a roleplaying game if and only if it accommodates roleplaying. Binary dialogue does not preclude that.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2018 19:42:28 GMT
Oh blue rose of Illium...Let my broken bones build a wall around your garden, so you and the flower we planted together can grow safe and strong.Truth be told, the level of interaction with those NPCs in ME2/ME3 is very small... there really wasn't much there, but it's still something I remember. Granted, it had the rest of the game to help bolster that, and Anthem will have... shootin' stuff? My feelings on the first three Mass Effect games is that the majority of stuff that built relationships with companions and other NPCs were removed from the areas where there was combat, there might have been a handful of lines of dialogue that were inconsequential. It might be less areas where this happens so you have your mobile base and the Fort to have conversations instead of maybe the additional non-combat areas might not be there, but it always felt to me there was a talking area and then a shooting area and they never really mixed. They needed to know where every conversation would occur so they could control camera movements for it. I do not approve of this trade.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 12, 2018 21:02:14 GMT
OK, we got that RPG clearly only after the fans peppered them with questions. That was like pulling teeth.
And how can you tell a "great story" when we interact with individual NPCs in Fort Tarsis?. Yeah... we'll get to know them but that of itself is not a great story. Where is this Great Story? In other words, I see these "critical" NPCs as the equivalent of the chars in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Great chars to know individually about their past experience but the Anthem NPCs won't go out on missions.. on adventures with the protagonist. So, where is this story coming from? ... that's what I'm missing.
Warframe introduced special story missions at some point and they were generally very well received. Warframe isn't a RPG neither, they tell their story primarily with bits from boss fights, little events, NPC you meet on hubs and for the most part cinematic quests that feature high-quality music, sound and voice acting.
Yes, Warframe does that. I strongly suspect Anthem is similar..
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 3, 2018 19:28:12 GMT
Budget dialogue in a budget BioWare minigame inside a not-budget expensive Destiny clone.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 3, 2018 19:29:22 GMT
I liked HZD's dialogue system, that wasn't really 'branching' it just let you talk as much as you wanted. Yeah, you would just exhaust choices... Which kinda stinks.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 25, 2018 21:34:22 GMT
That is a very strange definition of story. Is it? I'd say that's at least half of the narrative content of ME and DA. The other half is the save-the-world or piss on Andraste's Sacred Ashes, kind of stuff. That stuff had to be sacrificed for the sake of an MP world that has to be shared by multiple players with differing opinions about what constitutes saving the world. Personally, as someone who was complaining on the DAI boards about spectacle creep and being sick of the Chosen One trope and wanting a story that didn't have to be a save-the-world epic but more personal, I'm liking this direction Anthem is taking a lot. Kind of a two birds with one stone solution, for me. Meaning, they had to amputate the safe-the-world stuff of necessity, since the world is gonna be shared with a million other people, but the side effect is that I get the smaller scale story I wanted anyway. Whether they can pull it off technically without it being a PITA remains to be seen. The segregated 1P and 3P perspectives is already one strike against. I don't mind either one, but stick with one, or let the player switch contextually, like for Bethesda games. Forcing one type of content to be one way and another to be the other, in the same game, is gonna make a lot of people nauseous. Literally. A story is a series of events which is shaped by a plot, which is driven by characters which then concludes in some sort of point, purpose or message. Just faffing about "building relationships" sounds like a vapid story to me unless building those relationships somehow tie into a bigger arc like where a conflict arises between a group and by the end of the game through conversations and politicking you've reached a consensus based on your overall style and personal views.
I have nothing against a plot where nothing of action happens in the "My Story" part of the game but simply "getting to know people" isn't exactly an interesting premise, so I hope it becomes something more than that.
But I think the way it works is that there's always a larger plot out in the field akin to the traditional "Save the world stuff" and the "My story" part in Fort Tarsis is then like the Normandy, where you discuss the things that happened the last time you were in the field and the game gets to explore the themes and implications of the plot itself where the meat of the story is.
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Post by PillarBiter on Oct 30, 2018 7:01:28 GMT
It's a roleplaying game if and only if it accommodates roleplaying. Binary dialogue does not preclude that. Pretty much this. If the player feels that he can empathise with the game's main character and feels like he is playing it's role, then it's a role playing game to me. No matter how they bring the format. First person can definitely help with this. Resi 7 first person was genius for player involvement.
About RPG mechanics though, this is wide-ranging. My definition of RPG mechanics is that I feel like I have a decision in how my character grows and evolves, and that gameplay (in a similar fashion to story) is catered to how I feel it should be (within the game's boundaries, of course). This seems like Anthem does that in a limited fashion. We'll see how expansive the options will be.
All in all, I'm very interested in anthem's concept. I stil don't like the always online bit, I feel like they easily could've designed for solo as well but just didnt want to. But other than that, I'm excited.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Oct 30, 2018 19:26:20 GMT
All in all, I'm very interested in anthem's concept. I stil don't like the always online bit, I feel like they easily could've designed for solo as well but just didnt want to. But other than that, I'm excited. [/p][/quote] I'm extremely skeptical of any game with action combat. As soon as I feel like I'm playing a game rather than playing a character, I'm done. I didn't even make it through the tutorial of the last Deus Ex game, for example. And I really liked the concept for that one.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 31, 2018 11:48:11 GMT
All in all, I'm very interested in anthem's concept. I stil don't like the always online bit, I feel like they easily could've designed for solo as well but just didnt want to. But other than that, I'm excited. [/p][/quote] I'm extremely skeptical of any game with action combat. As soon as I feel like I'm playing a game rather than playing a character, I'm done. I didn't even make it through the tutorial of the last Deus Ex game, for example. And I really liked the concept for that one. [/quote][/div]
Hm...Game design is for today's generation = who have little critical thinking skills are are quite content with their horribilus penchant for button smashing = a weakness easily exploitable by greedybus corps.
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