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Post by river82 on Dec 20, 2018 12:49:39 GMT
Hmm....I can't see any incongruity in the Red Queen excerpt, though of course the storytelling style is very different. "Earthsea" (one of my favorite stories btw - I read it first in the 1970s and repeatedly re-read it, the last time this year) is more deliberate and retains some detachment from world to reader, leaving you time to soak it all up, while the Red Queen wants you to get into the thick of things with as little detachment as possible. The latter is justified to some degree and helped along by being a first-person-narrative. I agree that the latter style is more prevalent and has been for some years. It's the same tendency you see in movies - away from the reflective, towards the more visceral, and ever more speed. It is a popular trend in storytelling, and it is one I very much dislike - at times I feel all modern movies are made for people with ADHD, and there are those where I must close my eyes because the speed makes me nauseous - but it doesn't necessarily have any bearing on world integrity. I don't know the world of Red Queen (which I first mistook for "The Red Queen's War" by Mark Lawrence, definitely not YA stuff), but it appears to me that like Ged and the others in Earthsea, these characters exist convincingly within their worlds. They just come across as very different worlds and cultures. As for punching bags, I believe there wasn't a culture where people who trained to fight with their fists didn't have them, and I'm not sure if there is an alternative English term that would fit a different storytelling style better. In any case, I'm probably not up to judging a borderline case like this because English is not my first language. The second example is more colloquial. It makes it an easier read. But colloquial tends to use familiar everyday language and sentences, that's the whole point of colloquial. Which ties it firmly into the present day, because everyday language is everyday in 2018 language, which I tend to view as not so ideal for historical fiction (even though PessimistPanda points out it's not quite historical fiction. So bad example on my part). It's a bit trickier to pick up the informal sentences and stuff, apart from just noticing it's in everyday speak, a lot easier to pick up "let them have it" as a modern day phrase and "he's a punching bag" as a modern day phrase and go from there.
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Post by river82 on Dec 20, 2018 12:51:19 GMT
So what do they call them in Thedas? My money is 'punching bags', because that's how the writers roll, typically. In europe they were called punch bags, but that's beside the point, because in the excerpt I picked they weren't referring to punching bags as punching bags. They were using the phrase punching bag to refer to humans, and my point is that's a 20th century colloquial term. I don't know why there's so much push back against it. It is what it is.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 13:05:41 GMT
I didn't say anything about the etymology of the term, but it doesn't really matter. If your story has bags that exist only to be punched then you need to call them something. If you're writing historical fiction about women's competitive fighting in Victorian England, then what you call that bag might actually matter. In a fantasy world like Earthsea, or the setting of Red Queen, you can call it whatever you like. Because it's fantasy. They weren't referring to bags, they were referring to people. And referring to people as punching bags is distinctly a 20th century phenomenon. That doesn't matter, because in a fantasy world, society and language would likely develop differently. It's not a "20th century phenomenon", in the world of Red Queen, it's a phenomenon of their time, and their place. The whole argument is ridiculous, because, from a logical standpoint, the characters are not even speaking English. They can't possibly be, because their world has no England for the language to have been developed in. The setting and language of Red Queen didn't develop in parallel with ours. It moved at its own (theoretical) pace. If you seeded two human populations onto two different planets, even if those populations and planets were identical, and had the same access to the same tools, they would not develop in all areas at the same rates, because a lot of human advancement is just down to plain old luck. One population might come up with the term "punching bag" before the other. That is if either of them end up speaking anything that even remotely resembles English. One might end up discovering and harnessing electricity, while the other one never does. I really don't know how to explain it any clearer. Fantasy look like oldey-times, but is not oldey-times, so can have now-words.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 20, 2018 13:06:35 GMT
Well, while I'm here, it's also worth pointing out that Red Queen, by Victoria Aveyard, isn't set in a medieval-inspired fantasy world (for that matter, neither is Earthsea, but nevermind). The setting of Red Queen has complicated machinery, explosive devices, and even electricity. It's a bad book, so I didn't stick with it, but there were multiple indications early in the story that the society they lived in had previously been very advanced, but had been brought low by some sort of disaster (also common in YA these days). It's perfectly feasible for punching bags to exist in the setting. In fact, while a cursory google search reveals that the "punching bag" was patented in 1872, boxing as a sport has existed since the ancient Olympic Games, and I seriously doubt it took until the late 1800s for someone to come up with the idea of stuffing a bag with material and dangling it from the ceiling to be hit in various ways. So I'd go so far as to say that the existence of punching bags is perfectly feasible in any and every setting. But there's really no reason why a fantasy world, even if it is "medieval-inspired" (whatever that means), shouldn't have any technology that the author likes. There's no such thing as "anachronism" in a fantasy work, because fantasy isn't beholden to human history, and their society and technology does not develop in whatever imaginary parallel is being enforced by the MENSA members who praise GoT for its (lol) "historical accuracy". While no world must conform to any stereotype, even less actual history, good fictional worlds have their own identity. They stand out as "being them" as distinguished from other fictional worlds or real-world history. Such identies are established in the story, usually early but there are stories where the world isn't what you'd expect at first. Why some elements come across as not fitting in, there are many possible reasons for that, but one of them is that an element is so closely associated with a certain spefific time or place, either from the real world or other fictional worlds, that introducing that element to your world would break its authenticity. For instance, ever since Lord of the Rings, it is very hard for any fantasy story not set in Middle-Earth to name someone "Gandalf" while keeping the authenticity of its world intact. Similarly, certain things are so closely associated with our present time and place that you can't use them in another world without that world turning into a perceived continuation of ours. In some cases, you can avoid this by adding some grounding for the foreign-feeling elements, but for things like humorous phrases that's usually not worth the effort. Cultural language is one of the most common problems, because it's so highly specific and we know it.
With regard to MEA, worlds that are explicitly envisioned as being a possible continuation of ours have an easier time using cultural language from the present and other pop-culture references. Nonetheless, there is no "anything goes" in that story either: the problem river82 perceived there was cultural in-authenticity: the language used by Ryder in certain circumstances is associated with a subculture where most people wouldn't be mature enough to be assigned Ryder's task. Thus, Ryder's language comes across as not authentic.
This problem becomes more apparent and more difficult to avoid the more different cultures and settings, fictional and real, are known by the reader/watcher. Thus, accidentally not avoiding them is often the sign of an inexperienced or not sufficiently educated writer. You can use that effect intentionally, but it's not easy to pull off without alienating exactly those readers best-placed to appreciate the efforts you put into your world.
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Post by river82 on Dec 20, 2018 13:13:15 GMT
They weren't referring to bags, they were referring to people. And referring to people as punching bags is distinctly a 20th century phenomenon. That doesn't matter, because in a fantasy world, society and language would likely develop differently. It's not a "20th century phenomenon", in the world of Red Queen, it's a phenomenon of their time, and their place. The whole argument is ridiculous, because, from a logical standpoint, the characters are not even speaking English. They can't possibly be, because their world has no England for the language to have been developed in. The setting and language of Red Queen didn't develop in parallel with ours. It moved at its own (theoretical) pace. If you seeded two human populations onto two different planets, even if those populations and planets were identical, and had the same access to the same tools, they would not develop in all areas at the same rates, because a lot of human advancement is just down to plain old luck. One population might come up with the term "punching bag" before the other. That is if either of them end up speaking anything that even remotely resembles English. One might end up discovering and harnessing electricity, while the other one never does. I really don't know how to explain it any clearer. Fantasy look like oldey-times, but is not oldey-times, so can have now-words. It relates to "suspension of disbelief". You could say that as a fantasy novel their historical world, or their post-apocalyptic historical world, uses a language that just so happens to mirror modern day english in America or the narrator is translating it into 20th century vernacular for our convenience and I'll scoff and say "I don't believe you. It's poor worldbuilding". You can choose to head-canon it however you like though, but I'll never accept that reason. Why? Because I'm into fantasy for escapism. I like to be taken away from this world into other worlds, which is why I favour fantasy, sci-fi, and alternative history. That's harder when every character in the historically based fantasy novel you're reading speaks like someone you met just yesterday in the street. So for me it will always be a criticism. BUT! Young Adult fiction is booming. Like seriously it's huge right now. And it's mostly the same sort of colloquial style, so it's apparent that a lot of people really like it, young people and adult alike (more adults are reading YA). But I don't though.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 20, 2018 13:15:42 GMT
In any case, I would like them to refrain from too many pop culture references. Nothing makes a creative work feel more dated nor pulls people out of their sense of immersion more quickly.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 20, 2018 13:16:00 GMT
So what do they call them in Thedas? My money is 'punching bags', because that's how the writers roll, typically. In europe they were called punch bags, but that's beside the point, because in the excerpt I picked they weren't referring to punching bags as punching bags. They were using the phrase punching bag to refer to humans, and my point is that's a 20th century colloquial term. I don't know why there's so much push back against it. It is what it is. I understand where you're coming from - see my latest reply to pessimistpanda - but I do not perceive this particular example as you do, because "punching bag" as referring to people is a term I can easily transplant into almost any fictional world, simply because "punching bag" on its own is a generic term and both the item and its application to people would be understood in most times and places.. Unlike a term like, say "burger", or even worse, names or references to works of art or music.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 20, 2018 13:22:30 GMT
I didn't say anything about the etymology of the term, but it doesn't really matter. If your story has bags that exist only to be punched then you need to call them something. If you're writing historical fiction about women's competitive fighting in Victorian England, then what you call that bag might actually matter. In a fantasy world like Earthsea, or the setting of Red Queen, you can call it whatever you like. Because it's fantasy. They weren't referring to bags, they were referring to people. And referring to people as punching bags is distinctly a 20th century phenomenon. What word/phrase would have felt more comfortable in this context? Something like “scapegoat” would normally capture a similar meaning to “human punching bag”, but in this case it sounds like there’s a fighting component, so capturing the physicality of “punching bag” seems important.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 13:25:57 GMT
With regard to MEA, worlds that are explicitly envisioned as being a possible continuation of ours have an easier time using cultural language from the present and other pop-culture references. Nonetheless, there is no "anything goes" in that story either: the problem river82 perceived there was cultural in-authenticity: the language used by Ryder in certain circumstances is associated with a subculture where most people wouldn't be mature enough to be assigned Ryder's task. Thus, Ryder's language comes across as not authentic.
This problem becomes more apparent and more difficult to avoid the more different cultures and settings, fictional and real, are known by the reader/watcher. Thus, accidentally not avoiding them is often the sign of an inexperienced or not sufficiently educated writer. You can use that effect intentionally, but it's not easy to pull off without alienating exactly those readers best-placed to appreciate the efforts you put into your world. Well, yes, if the setting is intended to be a near-future Earth, or the characters are humans from a near-future Earth, it's a good idea to being in elements from current reality. The whole point of science fiction, after all, is to make commentary on some aspect/s of current society. I would never situate a work of fiction in the near future, or in a real time and place in human history without doing extensive research. I'm not going to ask what "subculture" you think Ryder's language is associated with, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today. But I will assert that 1) people of all ages and in all lines of work make jokes all the time, even very juvenile ones, and 2) that a major plot point of ME:A was that Ryder was not supposed to be a Pathfinder. Alec transferred SAM's command access to his child when he should not have (although I can't remember if that was because circumstances required it, or if it was always his plan to do so, despite Cora being officially appointed next in line).
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 13:28:46 GMT
In any case, I would like them to refrain from too many pop culture references. Nothing makes a creative work feel more dated nor pulls people out of their sense of immersion more quickly. Maybe you'll feel better about them after an ice-cold can of Coca-Cola. Just like the one that Solas drank that made him chill out and decide to be homies with the humans instead.
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Post by river82 on Dec 20, 2018 13:31:37 GMT
They weren't referring to bags, they were referring to people. And referring to people as punching bags is distinctly a 20th century phenomenon. What word/phrase would have felt more comfortable in this context? Something like “scapegoat” would normally capture a similar meaning to “human punching bag”, but in this case it sounds like there’s a fighting component, so capturing the physicality of “punching bag” seems important. There's usually 3 or possibly more options. Choose a less coloquial informal saying/phrase that means the same thing. Invent a metaphor or simile yourself, or if you're feeling lazy pick a suitable old one, or just not use colloquial language and use a word like beaten or battered. Whatever floats your boat (still can't believe we're talking about punching bags ...).
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 20, 2018 13:32:52 GMT
With regard to MEA, worlds that are explicitly envisioned as being a possible continuation of ours have an easier time using cultural language from the present and other pop-culture references. Nonetheless, there is no "anything goes" in that story either: the problem river82 perceived there was cultural in-authenticity: the language used by Ryder in certain circumstances is associated with a subculture where most people wouldn't be mature enough to be assigned Ryder's task. Thus, Ryder's language comes across as not authentic.
This problem becomes more apparent and more difficult to avoid the more different cultures and settings, fictional and real, are known by the reader/watcher. Thus, accidentally not avoiding them is often the sign of an inexperienced or not sufficiently educated writer. You can use that effect intentionally, but it's not easy to pull off without alienating exactly those readers best-placed to appreciate the efforts you put into your world. Well, yes, if the setting is intended to be a near-future Earth, or the characters are humans from a near-future Earth, it's a good idea to being in elements from current reality. The whole point of science fiction, after all, is to make commentary on some aspect/s of current society. I would never situate a work of fiction in the near future, or in a real time and place in human history without doing extensive research. I'm not going to ask what "subculture" you think Ryder's language is associated with, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today. But I will assert that 1) people of all ages and in all lines of work make jokes all the time, even very juvenile ones, and 2) that a major plot point of ME:A was that Ryder was not supposed to be a Pathfinder. Alec transferred SAM's command access to his child when he should not have (although I can't remember if that was because circumstances required it, or if it was always his plan to do so, despite Cora being officially appointed next in line). I don't think anything in particular about Ryder's language beyond finding most of their statements boring. I just wanted to explain why there might have been a sufficient reason for river82's perception of inauthenticity, in spite of the MEU having been envisioned as a possible continuation of real Earth. Earlier, it appeared to me you denied the significance of a world's authenticity altogether.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 20, 2018 13:34:54 GMT
What word/phrase would have felt more comfortable in this context? Something like “scapegoat” would normally capture a similar meaning to “human punching bag”, but in this case it sounds like there’s a fighting component, so capturing the physicality of “punching bag” seems important. Whatever floats your boat (still can't believe we're talking about punching bags ...). What, you didn't want to punch anyone in the last 24 hours?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 14:00:42 GMT
That doesn't matter, because in a fantasy world, society and language would likely develop differently. It's not a "20th century phenomenon", in the world of Red Queen, it's a phenomenon of their time, and their place. The whole argument is ridiculous, because, from a logical standpoint, the characters are not even speaking English. They can't possibly be, because their world has no England for the language to have been developed in. The setting and language of Red Queen didn't develop in parallel with ours. It moved at its own (theoretical) pace. If you seeded two human populations onto two different planets, even if those populations and planets were identical, and had the same access to the same tools, they would not develop in all areas at the same rates, because a lot of human advancement is just down to plain old luck. One population might come up with the term "punching bag" before the other. That is if either of them end up speaking anything that even remotely resembles English. One might end up discovering and harnessing electricity, while the other one never does. I really don't know how to explain it any clearer. Fantasy look like oldey-times, but is not oldey-times, so can have now-words. It relates to "suspension of disbelief". You could say that as a fantasy novel their historical world, or their post-apocalyptic historical world, uses a language that just so happens to mirror modern day english in America or the narrator is translating it into 20th century vernacular for our convenience and I'll scoff and say "I don't believe you. It's poor worldbuilding". You can choose to head-canon it however you like though, but I'll never accept that reason. Why? Because I'm into fantasy for escapism. I like to be taken away from this world into other worlds, which is why I favour fantasy, sci-fi, and alternative history. That's harder when every character in the historically based fantasy novel you're reading speaks like someone you met just yesterday in the street. So for me it will always be a criticism. BUT! Young Adult fiction is booming. Like seriously it's huge right now. And it's mostly the same sort of colloquial style, so it's apparent that a lot of people really like it, young people and adult alike (more adults are reading YA). But I don't though. Well, here we reach the crux of the issue. I don't perceive any fantasy novel as being "historically based", unless it clearly couches itself within the real world as part of its premise (like most urban fantasy tends to). For instance, I might find it a bit jarring that, in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, everyone dresses like it's 1970 and coal is apparently mined by hand in a year where smartphones exist (even though the show deliberately avoids stating what year it is actually set in). But even if your fantasy setting is loosely inspired by real-world history (and loosely is the best you can hope for, let's be honest), introducing magic changes everything in a profound and fundamental way, which is why most fantasy set in a "real world" place and time goes to great pains to explain how the magical world conceals itself from us (because otherwise you get films like Bright, where Christianity is for some reason still a thing, even though there have been multiple people in recorded history with similar powers to Jesus Christ). When you have an original world instead, any intended resemblance to any historical time period or place goes completely out the window. Even if Dragon Age, just for an example, was 'supposed' to be based on Medieval Europe, it has deliberately deviated from that setting in massive and obvious ways, to the point that any similarities must be purely coincidental. But for some reason, many people pick up fantasy texts, expecting them to be just like the real world unless otherwise stated, when in fact it should be the other way around; you should expect everything to be different.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 14:06:21 GMT
Well, yes, if the setting is intended to be a near-future Earth, or the characters are humans from a near-future Earth, it's a good idea to being in elements from current reality. The whole point of science fiction, after all, is to make commentary on some aspect/s of current society. I would never situate a work of fiction in the near future, or in a real time and place in human history without doing extensive research. I'm not going to ask what "subculture" you think Ryder's language is associated with, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today. But I will assert that 1) people of all ages and in all lines of work make jokes all the time, even very juvenile ones, and 2) that a major plot point of ME:A was that Ryder was not supposed to be a Pathfinder. Alec transferred SAM's command access to his child when he should not have (although I can't remember if that was because circumstances required it, or if it was always his plan to do so, despite Cora being officially appointed next in line). I don't think anything in particular about Ryder's language beyond finding most of their statements boring. I just wanted to explain why there might have been a sufficient reason for river82's perception of inauthenticity, in spite of the MEU having been envisioned as a possible continuation of real Earth. Earlier, it appeared to me you denied the significance of a world's authenticity altogether. Oh no, it's extremely important for a world to feel authentic. But that only requires that a work of fiction adhere consistently to its own internal logic, not necessarily that it resemble any aspect of our own world. And we don't know enough about the future world that Ryder is from to say that jokes about security theatre in travel hubs are out of place, so I think the initial complaint that started this thread is petty at best.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 20, 2018 14:45:55 GMT
I don't think anything in particular about Ryder's language beyond finding most of their statements boring. I just wanted to explain why there might have been a sufficient reason for river82's perception of inauthenticity, in spite of the MEU having been envisioned as a possible continuation of real Earth. Earlier, it appeared to me you denied the significance of a world's authenticity altogether. Oh no, it's extremely important for a world to feel authentic. But that only requires that a work of fiction adhere consistently to its own internal logic, not necessarily that it resemble any aspect of our own world. And we don't know enough about the future world that Ryder is from to say that jokes about security theatre in travel hubs are out of place, so I think the initial complaint that started this thread is petty at best. For me it is minor, too, but it depends on how readers perceive the fictional world, and people differ quite a bit in that regard. For instance, I make roleplaying worlds for my roleplaying groups, I have read several thousand books of fantasy and SF and quite a few classics on top of it, and I have a very good memory, so literary references tend to be obvious to me. Meanwhile, I rarely watch movies and I'm completely out of touch with what's hip in the music scene at any particular moment (my tastes run more to the 19th century and earlier) so references to those often pass me by. As for language, I'm not exposed to any particular subculture's language in everyday life so I'm not particularly sensitive for such language being used in a non-fitting context. Meanwhile, I'm familiar with science language and astrophysics so SF writers don't get a free pass from me for making up fictional technology that's obviously inconsistent with itself (ME, looking at you). To some degree, it's true that we read stories as we are.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 20, 2018 15:28:28 GMT
Y'all do realize that this is partly the writers' way of keeping sane while working on this, right? Same with the cheeses. Aside from that, it seems like there are two different conversations going on here. The OP isn't talking about powerful women, POC, LGBT folks, or even the presence of jokes ruining their fantasy world, but too many pop culture references that get tossed in that take him out of the setting. Making a joke about the TSA and shoe removal is a pop culture reference; many such jokes have been made over the years in various media. I think the term "anachronism" was thrown out incorrectly. If the writers threw in a joke where some character said, "I've got 99 problems, but a demon ain't one," hell yes I would be taken out of the setting. It's distracting. The games have plenty of in-context humor that revolves around the events; that is fine and enjoyable. I am not a fan of too many pop culture references.
[edit] I'm lucky that a lot of them go over my head. In that case, I'd rather not learn of their existence at all.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 20, 2018 18:29:55 GMT
I don't think anything in particular about Ryder's language beyond finding most of their statements boring. I just wanted to explain why there might have been a sufficient reason for river82's perception of inauthenticity, in spite of the MEU having been envisioned as a possible continuation of real Earth. Earlier, it appeared to me you denied the significance of a world's authenticity altogether. Oh no, it's extremely important for a world to feel authentic. But that only requires that a work of fiction adhere consistently to its own internal logic, not necessarily that it resemble any aspect of our own world. And we don't know enough about the future world that Ryder is from to say that jokes about security theatre in travel hubs are out of place, so I think the initial complaint that started this thread is petty at best. And I think you are wrong. We do know enough about their security to know that reference was terrible at best. Hey you like to excuse it because it’s their setting, fine good for you. I don’t. MEA doesn’t adhere to its own internal logic fairly frequently in order to get a cheap laugh. I think that is a poor trade and makes the work worse overall. You can call it petty, you’d just be wrong.
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Post by river82 on Dec 20, 2018 19:15:37 GMT
It relates to "suspension of disbelief". You could say that as a fantasy novel their historical world, or their post-apocalyptic historical world, uses a language that just so happens to mirror modern day english in America or the narrator is translating it into 20th century vernacular for our convenience and I'll scoff and say "I don't believe you. It's poor worldbuilding". You can choose to head-canon it however you like though, but I'll never accept that reason. Why? Because I'm into fantasy for escapism. I like to be taken away from this world into other worlds, which is why I favour fantasy, sci-fi, and alternative history. That's harder when every character in the historically based fantasy novel you're reading speaks like someone you met just yesterday in the street. So for me it will always be a criticism. BUT! Young Adult fiction is booming. Like seriously it's huge right now. And it's mostly the same sort of colloquial style, so it's apparent that a lot of people really like it, young people and adult alike (more adults are reading YA). But I don't though. Well, here we reach the crux of the issue. I don't perceive any fantasy novel as being "historically based", unless it clearly couches itself within the real world as part of its premise (like most urban fantasy tends to). For instance, I might find it a bit jarring that, in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, everyone dresses like it's 1970 and coal is apparently mined by hand in a year where smartphones exist (even though the show deliberately avoids stating what year it is actually set in). But even if your fantasy setting is loosely inspired by real-world history (and loosely is the best you can hope for, let's be honest), introducing magic changes everything in a profound and fundamental way, which is why most fantasy set in a "real world" place and time goes to great pains to explain how the magical world conceals itself from us (because otherwise you get films like Bright, where Christianity is for some reason still a thing, even though there have been multiple people in recorded history with similar powers to Jesus Christ). When you have an original world instead, any intended resemblance to any historical time period or place goes completely out the window. Even if Dragon Age, just for an example, was 'supposed' to be based on Medieval Europe, it has deliberately deviated from that setting in massive and obvious ways, to the point that any similarities must be purely coincidental. But for some reason, many people pick up fantasy texts, expecting them to be just like the real world unless otherwise stated, when in fact it should be the other way around; you should expect everything to be different. Should be worth noting that Dragon Age was inspired in part by Tolkien. Tolkien set out not to create a piece of fantasy, but to create a mythology for England/Europe. Should also be pointed out that a whole section of fantasy was inspired by Tolkien's "mythology for England" when creating their high or dark fantasy. Dragon Age certainly was based on medieval Europe, and it obviously is, and I would argue that it hasn't deviated to the the point where we expect nothing to be similar. I would also argue that magic does not change everything, it's merely an addition to the setting. Anyway like I said earlier you're are going to great effort to headcannon away any perceived criticism here. It's fine. But you've done nothing to argue why I should accept any of your reasoning for my own. You say magic changes everything but you don't explain why. You don't explain why any intended resemblance flies out the window, you just state it, You say I should expect everything to be different but don't explain it. You're perfectly welcome to continue with your expectations of fantasy, but I won't be adopting them. I will continue to expect that fantasy novels based in the past not be written in colloquial, everyday in 2018 language.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 20, 2018 22:42:10 GMT
And I think you are wrong. We do know enough about their security to know that reference was terrible at best. Hey you like to excuse it because it’s their setting, fine good for you. I don’t. MEA doesn’t adhere to its own internal logic fairly frequently in order to get a cheap laugh. I think that is a poor trade and makes the work worse overall. You can call it petty, you’d just be wrong. Okay, great. Since you've been paying such close attention, you can explain to me how their security works, and why it means that joke is wrong. And if you want to list some other internal consistencies in MEA, by all means go ahead.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 21, 2018 5:27:40 GMT
And I think you are wrong. We do know enough about their security to know that reference was terrible at best. Hey you like to excuse it because it’s their setting, fine good for you. I don’t. MEA doesn’t adhere to its own internal logic fairly frequently in order to get a cheap laugh. I think that is a poor trade and makes the work worse overall. You can call it petty, you’d just be wrong. Okay, great. Since you've been paying such close attention, you can explain to me how their security works, and why it means that joke is wrong. And if you want to list some other internal consistencies in MEA, by all means go ahead. They have displayed very advanced scanning technology which would make the take off the shoes comment inconsistent with the setting. That this is even a question isn't that it is unclear but that you are being intentionally obtuse in order to give them a pass.
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Post by jjdxb on Dec 21, 2018 7:36:12 GMT
I dunno, I laughed so much when Isabela said she liked big boats and could not lie
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 21, 2018 7:44:33 GMT
Okay, great. Since you've been paying such close attention, you can explain to me how their security works, and why it means that joke is wrong. And if you want to list some other internal consistencies in MEA, by all means go ahead. They have displayed very advanced scanning technology which would make the take off the shoes comment inconsistent with the setting. That this is even a question isn't that it is unclear but that you are being intentionally obtuse in order to give them a pass. Well if I have to be obtuse, I'd prefer to do so in the name of being lenient to insignificant flaws, rather than in service to being a naggy fun-killer.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 21, 2018 16:25:31 GMT
They have displayed very advanced scanning technology which would make the take off the shoes comment inconsistent with the setting. That this is even a question isn't that it is unclear but that you are being intentionally obtuse in order to give them a pass. Well if I have to be obtuse, I'd prefer to do so in the name of being lenient to insignificant flaws, rather than in service to being a naggy fun-killer. Being overly lenient is a far bigger fun killer. But hey who cares about story in a rpg. Just us naggy fun-killers.
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Post by phoray on Dec 21, 2018 16:33:52 GMT
I dunno, I laughed so much when Isabela said she liked big boats and could not lie Oh man, I forgot this qualified. I still love it. and even if you don't know that song, it's just be a bemusing but still Isabella thing to say.
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