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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 8:49:15 GMT
@ to the Panda. Here a thing : Just don't choose that type of content. Dragon age is not your safe space and dysney fantasy RPG. If you are that fragile, just choose the option where you can save a puppy or a cat. If you are uncomfortable with certain things, you just have to ignore it. There is no reason to remove that type of content, and to affect the freedom of others that didn't ask you anything, thanks. ( but how very nice of you to take care of us all ) Geeeez.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 8:50:08 GMT
Genocide and other hate-motivated violence are pretty much where I draw the line. Of course, not being a mind-reader, it's impossible to know if any given player is attacking or killing an individual NPC because they are genuinely a jerk or because the player just wants to indulge in bigoted violence fantasies. Hm, fair enough. Everyone has their thing.
I, for example, don't think they have to add bigoted dialogue options for characters like Krem, Dorian, or elves, just because some players will want and use them. So that's my thing, I guess.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 9:23:49 GMT
We did have the option to kill the Dog in Origins, but it would have died anyway without the flower... so I dunno, can we justify it as a mercy-killing, even though we could have saved it's life if we weren't a lazy so-and-so? It depends on how you roleplay. Sometimes, roleplaying does involve ignoring meta information in favor of how your character, who might have different experience than you in real life, would react. With the Connor choice, the game practically hits you over the head that going to the mages is the better option*, so if you want to not do that for roleplay reasons, some headcanon is involved. Heck, the mere act of seeing dialogue options you don't even take is meta information because it suggests to the player's mind.
I also like to be able to let my character make "bad" choices and then wonder about them later on. My Inquisitor picks the triad in WEWH, but then later wonders if it was a mistake. Under other circumstances, I would likely choose Celene as the sole ruler so she could eliminate the competition in whatever way she deems necessary and Orlais is no longer fractured. But that's not what my Inquisitor would do.
* I dislike that this is in the game at all, or at least without consequences.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 23, 2019 9:36:52 GMT
@ to the Panda. Here a thing : Just don't choose that type of content. Dragon age is not your safe space and dysney fantasy RPG. If you are that fragile, just choose the option where you can save a puppy or a cat. If you are uncomfortable with certain things, you just have to ignore it. There is no reason to remove that type of content, and to affect the freedom of others that didn't ask you anything, thanks. ( but how very nice of you to take care of us all ) Geeeez. I don't labour under the delusion that any aspect of nerd-dom is my "safe space". I think you have me confused with every single straight man.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 9:42:12 GMT
@ to the Panda. Here a thing : Just don't choose that type of content. Dragon age is not your safe space and dysney fantasy RPG. If you are that fragile, just choose the option where you can save a puppy or a cat. If you are uncomfortable with certain things, you just have to ignore it. There is no reason to remove that type of content, and to affect the freedom of others that didn't ask you anything, thanks. ( but how very nice of you to take care of us all ) Geeeez. I don't labour under the delusion that any aspect of nerd-dom is my "safe space". I think you have me confused with every single straight man. Your rainbow world where " bigotry " is called out and banned, where no one could murder a poor cat or do a genocide, was funny to read though.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 9:54:03 GMT
Choices (and consequences I guess) give the player the illusion of control. It's not actual control, but it gives the player the feeling of being able to dictate what the character does. The more diverse the choices are, the more complete the illusion. When developers start to not allow certain types of behaviour or certain dialogue options or certain actions, that starts to degrade the illusion. And if the developers go full Andromeda, that is action and dialogue options only a certain type of person (nice and kind) might perform, then that thoroughly shatters the illusion. Which is why one of the complaints repeated against Andromeda is "why can't I do this!" Though it was better than Anthem though, which offers pretty much zero choices.
I'd rather more options even if I don't choose those options. I appreciate that I could if I wanted to. But I'm a big fan of these sort of sim type games, where you can do a wide variety of things.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 11:43:32 GMT
We are in agreement when it comes to both parts, then. For the record, this is part of what I mean when I say DAI feels "sanitized". Well, when I say "critical", I mean I want them to dispense with this milquetoast "both sides have a point" nonsense and actually take a stance on something. Ideally, that stance would be an open condemnation of bigotry in all its forms. I feel that's the least they owe their substantial minority fanbase. Oh....they owe you that now? That's exactly the sense of entitlement people don't like. Also, "open condemnation" is definitely not "critical examination" either, and in a story it's very likely to take the form of heavy-handed moralizing, and that's never, ever changed anything for the better. It just makes people dig their heels in all the harder.
As for what works better, here's an example: Have you played TW3? There's this gay hunter you meet who tells you his depressing life story if you encourage him. Do you really think the message in that scene is anything else but "This is a really shitty aspect of that culture and the people who perpetuate it are assholes"? I say anyone who doesn't get that message from that scene is so far gone that you won't reach them with anything else, and there's no moralizing involved - the message isn't forced on you - so it might actually work to influence people's minds through their natural empathy.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 11:51:12 GMT
Sounds like DAO is a classic game that should never have been made as it is chock full of bigotry??? It's perfectly possible to create a fictional bigoted society without encouraging players to commit genocidal acts in-game, or rewarding them for that behaviour. I am unaware of that actually happening in any DA game. We could get into a rather lengthy debate about the krogan in ME3, though, where the point is made that doing the right thing may have costs you might not want to accept.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 23, 2019 12:09:39 GMT
Well, when I say "critical", I mean I want them to dispense with this milquetoast "both sides have a point" nonsense and actually take a stance on something. Ideally, that stance would be an open condemnation of bigotry in all its forms. I feel that's the least they owe their substantial minority fanbase. Oh....they owe you that now? That's exactly the sense of entitlement people don't like. Also, "open condemnation" is definitely not "critical examination" either, and in a story it's very likely to take the form of heavy-handed moralizing, and that's never, ever changed anything for the better. It just makes people dig their heels in all the harder.
As for what works better, here's an example: Have you played TW3? There's this gay hunter you meet who tells you his depressing life story if you encourage him. Do you really think the message in that scene is anything else but "This is a really shitty aspect of that culture and the people who perpetuate it are assholes"? I say anyone who doesn't get that message from that scene is so far gone that you won't reach them with anything else, and there's no moralizing involved so it might actually work to influence people's minds through their natural empathy. Yeah, if they want to market on a platform of inclusivity to take our money, then they owe minorities a basic modicum of goddamn respect.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 12:16:13 GMT
Oh my god...
Anyway, the thing about being a cunt ingame, and/or downright evil, is that I think it should be a detriment to you. You shouldn't be allowed to be evil without there being a negative effect, whether it's losing content, items, lore, squadmates... You reap what you sow.
This is of course how I think it should specifically work in the Dragon Age series, but other RPG series can aim for another narrative.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 12:20:52 GMT
Oh....they owe you that now? That's exactly the sense of entitlement people don't like. Also, "open condemnation" is definitely not "critical examination" either, and in a story it's very likely to take the form of heavy-handed moralizing, and that's never, ever changed anything for the better. It just makes people dig their heels in all the harder.
As for what works better, here's an example: Have you played TW3? There's this gay hunter you meet who tells you his depressing life story if you encourage him. Do you really think the message in that scene is anything else but "This is a really shitty aspect of that culture and the people who perpetuate it are assholes"? I say anyone who doesn't get that message from that scene is so far gone that you won't reach them with anything else, and there's no moralizing involved so it might actually work to influence people's minds through their natural empathy. Yeah, if they want to market on a platform of inclusivity to take our money, then they owe minorities a basic modicum of goddamn respect. removed by moderatorYou can demand tolerance, but respect must be earned. You have just lost any I might have had for you.
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 23, 2019 12:23:13 GMT
Well, when I say "critical", I mean I want them to dispense with this milquetoast "both sides have a point" nonsense and actually take a stance on something. Ideally, that stance would be an open condemnation of bigotry in all its forms. I feel that's the least they owe their substantial minority fanbase. Oh....they owe you that now? That's exactly the sense of entitlement people don't like. Also, "open condemnation" is definitely not "critical examination" either, and in a story it's very likely to take the form of heavy-handed moralizing, and that's never, ever changed anything for the better. It just makes people dig their heels in all the harder.
As for what works better, here's an example: Have you played TW3? There's this gay hunter you meet who tells you his depressing life story if you encourage him. Do you really think the message in that scene is anything else but "This is a really shitty aspect of that culture and the people who perpetuate it are assholes"? I say anyone who doesn't get that message from that scene is so far gone that you won't reach them with anything else, and there's no moralizing involved so it might actually work to influence people's minds through their natural empathy. That scene stuck with me. As much as this might sound like circlejerking, this is one thing that Bioware can certainly try to take from TW3. That scene felt real and relatable to me.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 12:24:11 GMT
Oh my god... Anyway, the thing about being a cunt ingame, and/or downright evil, is that I think it should be a detriment to you. You shouldn't be allowed to be evil without there being a negative effect, whether it's losing content, items, lore, squadmates... You reap what you sow. This is of course how I think it should specifically work in the Dragon Age series, but other RPG series can aim for another narrative. I think there should be verisimilitude here. If you're an asshole to someone, they won't like you, and if they are in a position to deny you something later, they probably will. On the other hand, if your evil goes unnoticed, it might get you what you want. Or not. Depends on the circumstances. I dislike fixed patterns in this. I dislike particularly "follow your heart and everything will be ok", because that's plainly delusional.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 12:26:10 GMT
Oh my god... Anyway, the thing about being a cunt ingame, and/or downright evil, is that I think it should be a detriment to you. You shouldn't be allowed to be evil without there being a negative effect, whether it's losing content, items, lore, squadmates... You reap what you sow. This is of course how I think it should specifically work in the Dragon Age series, but other RPG series can aim for another narrative. Many of those options feel forced, like the game devs are lecturing the players for choosing bad options by taking away items. Natural consequences of actions, like a bounty, factions or specific people refusing aid, and so forth are much more natural. Assassin's Creed launches bounty hunters who track you all over the Gorram map xD
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 12:32:50 GMT
Oh my god... Anyway, the thing about being a cunt ingame, and/or downright evil, is that I think it should be a detriment to you. You shouldn't be allowed to be evil without there being a negative effect, whether it's losing content, items, lore, squadmates... You reap what you sow. This is of course how I think it should specifically work in the Dragon Age series, but other RPG series can aim for another narrative. Many of those options feel forced, like the game devs are lecturing the players for choosing bad options by taking away items. Natural consequences of actions, like a bounty, factions or specific people refusing aid, and so forth are much more natural. Assassin's Creed launches bounty hunters who track you all over the Gorram map xD Being a dickhead should be a detriment in a game that usually boils down to heroics, and at worst making a difficult, but logical choice that ends with a corpse or two.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Feb 23, 2019 12:34:48 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Offensive comments have been removed, please keep things civil.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 12:36:08 GMT
Personally i’m Not a fan of labeling something as an evil choice & then having a punishment. Not least as it is so subjective. Choices whether one person views them as right or wrong should have consequences which could be bad/good/mixed
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 23, 2019 12:40:33 GMT
Oh my god... Anyway, the thing about being a cunt ingame, and/or downright evil, is that I think it should be a detriment to you. You shouldn't be allowed to be evil without there being a negative effect, whether it's losing content, items, lore, squadmates... You reap what you sow. This is of course how I think it should specifically work in the Dragon Age series, but other RPG series can aim for another narrative. A valid point. But I think that the possibility should still be there, alongside with the opportunity to have the protagonist show how they feel. For example: In a given situation where things can go to hell very fast, you may have the choice to do one of two things: 1. The morally objectionable option that allows you to solve the imminent, very dangerous problem relatively easily, but will earn you the strong disapproval of your companions, in both approval meter and conversations. Imagine, for instance, a blood magic ritual. 2. The morally better option, requiring more hard work to solve the problem, but with the option of failing. But your companions' opinion of you will improve, barring that odd dude who's extremely pragmatic. It involves more talking to people, more sleuthing around, etc. Later, during conversations, you get to establish how your character feels about what they picked. For option 1, they can feel justified because it solved the problem fairly easily, or guilty because they know what they did was horrifying but they couldn't risk something far worse happening, or they can even wish they could have gotten back in time and pick the other option, risks be damned, while option 2 can have them feel at ease because they know they did the right thing and wouldn't compromise their morals (independently of the final result), celebrate their hard work (if they still succeeded) or even regretting not going with the evil blood magic ritual (if they failed). It's something very simple that can be decided with a few dialogue options... and more cinematic camera angles, because I've no doubt that DAI's camera contributed to the disconnect for a lot of conversations.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 12:41:49 GMT
Personally i’m Not a fan of labeling something as an evil choice & then having a punishment. Not least as it is so subjective. Choices whether one person views them as right or wrong should have consequences which could be bad/good/mixed There are things that are plain evil, and being malicious.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 12:42:55 GMT
Many of those options feel forced, like the game devs are lecturing the players for choosing bad options by taking away items. Natural consequences of actions, like a bounty, factions or specific people refusing aid, and so forth are much more natural. Assassin's Creed launches bounty hunters who track you all over the Gorram map xD Being a dickhead should be a detriment in a game that usually boils down to heroics, and at worst making a difficult, but logical choice that ends with a corpse or two. One man's hero is another man's murderer. The problem with punishing people for being a dickhead (other than that I don't play video games to be lectured at by developers) is that there's no line where if you cross it you're a dick and if you don't you're not. 100 different people will have 100 different views on what precisely dickish behaviour is.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 23, 2019 12:51:58 GMT
Well, when I say "critical", I mean I want them to dispense with this milquetoast "both sides have a point" nonsense and actually take a stance on something. Ideally, that stance would be an open condemnation of bigotry in all its forms. I feel that's the least they owe their substantial minority fanbase. Oh....they owe you that now? That's exactly the sense of entitlement people don't like. Also, "open condemnation" is definitely not "critical examination" either, and in a story it's very likely to take the form of heavy-handed moralizing, and that's never, ever changed anything for the better. It just makes people dig their heels in all the harder.
As for what works better, here's an example: Have you played TW3? There's this gay hunter you meet who tells you his depressing life story if you encourage him. Do you really think the message in that scene is anything else but "This is a really shitty aspect of that culture and the people who perpetuate it are assholes"? I say anyone who doesn't get that message from that scene is so far gone that you won't reach them with anything else, and there's no moralizing involved - the message isn't forced on you - so it might actually work to influence people's minds through their natural empathy. I'm not sure how much more "condemnation" of bigotry Bioware needs to add to their games or stories. It seems pretty explicit to me as is currently. As in real life, there is still discussion on which forms of discrimination are either bigotry or just sound judgement - happily, in Bioware games these are usually around wholly fictional scenarios.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 23, 2019 13:06:32 GMT
Being a dickhead should be a detriment in a game that usually boils down to heroics, and at worst making a difficult, but logical choice that ends with a corpse or two. One man's hero is another man's murderer. The problem with punishing people for being a dickhead (other than that I don't play video games to be lectured at by developers) is that there's no line where if you cross it you're a dick and if you don't you're not. 100 different people will have 100 different views on what precisely dickish behaviour is. Just to comment on that "line". I always liked Dragon Age: Awakening for giving voice to the monster horde Darkspawn, and spinning that whole notion of who the good guys were in the war between Darkspawn and the Wardens and on its head. This is kind of funny. In Destiny, you play a Guardian, a lone space-knight type, who runs around the solar system trying retake alien invaded and occupied planets. In the end-game, if you continue playing, this leads to a kind of endless slaughter of enemies, which always sort of bugged me. In Destiny 2 Foresaken, you finally get the perspective from one of the other main story characters who rants about how callous and terrible the Guardians really were (if you read all the codex entries), and I just thought, "Yeah."
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 13:09:53 GMT
Personally i’m Not a fan of labeling something as an evil choice & then having a punishment. Not least as it is so subjective. Choices whether one person views them as right or wrong should have consequences which could be bad/good/mixed There are things that are plain evil, and being malicious. What specific examples are you thinking of?
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 13:12:08 GMT
Being a dickhead should be a detriment in a game that usually boils down to heroics, and at worst making a difficult, but logical choice that ends with a corpse or two. One man's hero is another man's murderer. The problem with punishing people for being a dickhead (other than that I don't play video games to be lectured at by developers) is that there's no line where if you cross it you're a dick and if you don't you're not. 100 different people will have 100 different views on what precisely dickish behaviour is. That may sometimes be the case, but quite often the evil is pretty clear. For instance, we don't need to debate whether the elves' treatment in Orlais is racist, do we? It's perfectly clear that it is.
Having said that, it's very likely you will not be punished in Orlais for racist behaviour, because it's unlikely an elf will be in a position to deny you something important there. So a *pattern* of you being punished for racist behaviour would be highly unrealistic, though of course any single situation can be constructed so that you are.
This is, btw., an example of what I mean with "verisimilitude". Real-world morality should interfere as little as possible with the workings of the fictional world. Where they're congruent, it's no problem enforcing real-world morality as the morality of the fictional world and the culture your character resides in, where they're not, it should most definitely not be enforced. An Orlesian noble can usually get away with being a racist asshole, so if you are an Orlesian noble in good standing with your peers, you should be able to get away with it, too.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 13:13:50 GMT
There are things that are plain evil, and being malicious. What specific examples are you thinking of? Rape, framing innocent people, killing innocent people for your own gain, insulting people to put them down, doing unethical things to elevate yourself, just to name a few.
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