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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 6:43:08 GMT
Time to get Trespasser, then. I'd say that each game has one essential DLC for how it ties into future events. For DAO, that is Witch Hunt because of the eluvian and Morrigan's involvement with them; even if your Warden is dead and you loathe Morrigan, it's worth playing once. For DA2, that is Legacy because of Corypheus. For DAI, that is Trespasser because it's the epilogue to the game and sets up DA4. All the rest have varying degrees of importance and personal preference, but I regard these three as the most essential.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2019 6:47:05 GMT
For DAI, that is Trespasser because it's the epilogue to the game and sets up DA4. Also potentially ruins the game depending on who the protagonist is in DA4.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 21, 2019 7:06:40 GMT
I'm just translating the dogwhistles so regular people can understand them I want equality. I want the same sex romances to have the same quantity and quality of the hetero romances, meaning the same number of options, and plotlines that don't revolve around the character's sexuality. Seems pretty fucking simple to me. Symmetry IS fairness. There is no difference. I have no idea what straight women or trans people want, and I'm not speaking on their behalf, just pointing out the absurdity of making appeals to the historical accuracy of gender roles, when historical accuracy is not and has never been the goal of fantasy, and warrior women have been a staple of the genre since its inception. I don't expect Weekes to know anything about me. Nothing I said in this thread has been addressed to him at all. I've specifically been targeting the obvious and hilarious right wing dogwhistling going on in this trainwreck of a thread. "Oh, I'm worried that Patrick is TOO left-leaning." "I just think the cast of Inquisition is TOO diverse already." "Oh, just I think the deep, morally gray, political story (lol wut) has been sanitised by Patrick's radical social justice agenda." It doesn't take a fucking decoder ring. I'm not defending Weekes, I'm attacking bigots. That was never a secret. As for your comfort? Well that sounds like a you problem. I'm gunning for a seat at the table, and if I have to push someone off theirs, I fucking will. See, that's what I'm talking about. That isn't equality, it's symmetry. The only possible way you're ever going to achieve those... quotas?... is if every romance is precisely identical, only adjusted for whatever orientation or identity it's aimed towards. The relative qualities of one romance compared to another are too subjective for anything else. Who the hell would be able to judge them? And should they be judged on every possible vector? Budget and employee hours spent, pixels of the screen filled with nudity? And exactly how many different categories do you want romances for before you're satisfied that they're all "equal"? Straight, gay, lesbian, and bisexual, okay. What about transsexual and non-binary relationships, assuming that people who identify as such want those options? Should there only be as many in total as other categories get, or should every possible combination of gender expression and sexual orientation come with a possible romantic interest specifically attracted to that combination? But it's all on a spectrum, right? So should there be options to express and indulge romantic dialogue for every possible point along every possible spectrum? There are apparently people out there who identify as pretty much anything. Why should any of them deserve to feel marginalized or ignored? And how the hell are the developers going to keep up with any of this? They're not robots, they're not going to get perfectly equally great and inspired ideas for every one of those character concepts and romantic scenarios. And again with how you're talking. You're clearly not interested in treating anyone with respect or civility or fairness so much as revenge yourself on anyone you personally deem to be a fair target, based on your own vaguely formulated intuition, no evidence needed. What does that sound like to you, if not bigotry? And not only do you somehow see that as your prerogative, "normal people" apparently aren't smart enough to make up their own minds about what they read or hear, and would be better off getting it through you instead? If you're such an expert on oppression and others feeling too entitled, how the hell are you not recognizing your own way of thinking as a red flag? Or are you superhuman, and shouldn't worry about judging or moderating yourself like everybody else has to? Or maybe you just don't care about the consequences if you fuck up and hurt a bunch of people who don't deserve it? Great moral compass for the world that makes you. You just talked in the other thread about how you want all this "equality" to show that the world can be free from darkness and oppression and marginalization if we try hard enough, but now that we're talking about your own behavior all you're interested in is attacking, venting your own frustrations, and stealing opportunities from people whether they've done anything to hurt you or not. How do you square that? Spoilers: I don't give a shit whatever weird rationalization you want to concoct. Hopefully you know you're not making sense, and if you do then there's still hope that you'll grow up someday. If not then you still might, but you sure as hell don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. And don't you worry about my comfort or my seat at whatever imaginary table you're talking about. You clearly haven't been living or thinking nearly long enough to pose any kind of threat to an adult either politically, romantically or on the job market yet, if what you've been showing here is any indication.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 21, 2019 7:12:39 GMT
I mean in the context of my affiliation with Dragon Age versus Pessimist Panda’s. Again, my only concern is Dragon Age. If you want to have a conversation about LGBT representation in other series, I’ll gladly hear your grievances and offer my support. But when it comes to this series, I will not be pushed out quietly. I have planted my flag here and I will surrender no ground. Nothing is going to be taken away from you. I sincerely hope that is the case. But as you may have noticed, PP just made the argument that we can’t all have an equal share. I think you're taking this far too seriously. But I mean if LGBT people could play ME1 and ME2 with no romance and still enjoy the games then straight people can too. Romances are just a small part of the experience, after all. They're not the most important part. But I hate it when people become entitled... like what happened with Andromeda when people were whining about LGBT romances being "unfair." That game had so many issues like writing wise and stuff, not being able to fuck aliens should have been the last concern! That pisses me of. And of course Bioware went and "fed the trolls" making public apologies and shit, plus adding new content just because of them... well that I don't mind 'cause new content is always a plus for everyone. But honestly that game had much larger issues than a token transgender characters dialogue not being 100% politically correct and triggering the extra sensitive people of todays world.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 7:16:41 GMT
I mean in the context of my affiliation with Dragon Age versus Pessimist Panda’s. Again, my only concern is Dragon Age. If you want to have a conversation about LGBT representation in other series, I’ll gladly hear your grievances and offer my support. But when it comes to this series, I will not be pushed out quietly. I have planted my flag here and I will surrender no ground. I sincerely hope that is the case. But as you may have noticed, PP just made the argument that we can’t all have an equal share. I think you're taking this far too seriously. But I mean if LGBT people could play ME1 and ME2 with no romance and still enjoy the games then straight people can too. Romances are just a small part of the experience, after all. They're not the most important part. But I hate it when people become entitled... like what happened with Andromeda when people were whining about LGBT romances being "unfair." That game had so many issues like writing wise and stuff, not being able to fuck aliens should have been the last concern! That pisses me of. And of course Bioware went and "fed the trolls" making public apologies and shit, plus adding new content just because of them... well that I don't mind 'cause new content is always a plus for everyone. But honestly that game had much larger issues than a token transgender characters dialogue not being 100% politically correct and triggering the extra sensitive people of todays world. "Who care's about bigotry when the characters make ugly faces?!"
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 7:16:44 GMT
I sincerely hope that is the case. But as you may have noticed, PP just made the argument that we can’t all have an equal share. It was a metaphor. He also very clearly stated that he wanted equal options in a previous post.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 21, 2019 7:22:31 GMT
Why do people believe that Patrick Weekes is in charge of this stuff?
Back when DA2 was about to release, Gaider did an interview where he recounted how he "found out that Isabela was going to be in the game". Essentially, Mike Laidlaw came to him, said "remember Isabela from the Pearl, yeah, she's a companion now and a Love interest".
So I find it unlikely that Patrick will be left to decide what the make-up of the romance options are. He'll probably have a say - a non-trivial one - in the quality of the individual romances due to him either writing them (or deciding who writes them), but unless they've changed the way these decisions are made, he'll be told which characters are romance options and for which gender(s).
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 7:25:09 GMT
In any case, I have other concerns about Weekes’ direction. I could see him opting to remove the more “problematic” aspects of the DA lore to avoid offending certain interests.
I can’t help but think of the flippancy he approached changing the name of Qarinus to Ventus. “Oh, some folks kept mixing up Qarinus with Qunari, so we changed it!”
The name Qarinus was in the comics and the games. To see it casually substituted with such a lazy alternative did not sit well with me, and I can’t help but wonder if he’ll take a similar tact to other aspects of the lore.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 7:26:10 GMT
So I find it unlikely that Patrick will be left to decide what the make-up of the romance options are. He'll probably have a say - a non-trivial one - in the quality of the individual romances due to him either writing them (or deciding who writes them), but unless they've changed the way these decisions are made, he'll be told which characters are romance options and for which gender(s). That may have been the case for Isabela, and perhaps some others, but it's also been characterized in the past that deciding on LI status is more organic during the character writing process.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 7:28:11 GMT
I sincerely hope that is the case. But as you may have noticed, PP just made the argument that we can’t all have an equal share. It was a metaphor. He also very clearly stated that he wanted equal options in a previous post. Yes, thank you. I never said LGBT folk should try to grab everything like it's a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. The fact is that equality means that the person who has more has to lose some of it. Only not really, since in order to make up for what straight, white men already got, the entire game industry would have to dedicate itself to only making games aimed at everyone else for the next several decades at least, and that will never happen. But tbh, if thats1evildude is willing to cede all future games to teh gayz in exchange for keeping DA all to himself, I'd be willing to make that deal.
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https://i.imgur.com/1myVt9D.jpg
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 21, 2019 7:28:16 GMT
So I find it unlikely that Patrick will be left to decide what the make-up of the romance options are. He'll probably have a say - a non-trivial one - in the quality of the individual romances due to him either writing them (or deciding who writes them), but unless they've changed the way these decisions are made, he'll be told which characters are romance options and for which gender(s). That may have been the case for Isabela, and perhaps some others, but it's also been characterized in the past that deciding on LI status is more organic during the character writing process. Fair enough.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 7:29:12 GMT
In any case, I have other concerns about Weekes’ direction. I could see him opting to remove the more “problematic” aspects of the DA lore to avoid offending certain interests. I can’t help but think of the flippancy he approached changing the name of Qarinus to Ventus. “Oh, some folks kept mixing up Qarinus with Qunari, so we changed it!” The name Qarinus was in the comics and the games. To see it casually substituted with such a lazy alternative did not sit well with me, and I can’t help but wonder if he’ll take a similar tact to other aspects of the lore. I really really REALLY dislike that change. And their reasoning seems especially dumb considering that it's now fucking destroyed.
But did you actually expect him to react any differently? He's now the head writer of the game. He's not going to air dirty laundry even if he did think it was a shit decision.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 7:29:21 GMT
In any case, I have other concerns about Weekes’ direction. I could see him opting to remove the more “problematic” aspects of the DA lore to avoid offending certain interests. I can’t help but think of the flippancy he approached changing the name of Qarinus to Ventus. “Oh, some folks kept mixing up Qarinus with Qunari, so we changed it!” The name Qarinus was in the comics and the games. To see it casually substituted with such a lazy alternative did not sit well with me, and I can’t help but wonder if he’ll take a similar tact to other aspects of the lore. It's actually worse than you thought. The city of Qarinus from Dragon Age has been replaced with the character of Ventus from Kingdom Hearts.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 7:30:10 GMT
Why do people believe that Patrick Weekes is in charge of this stuff? I’m aware the writers write to the specifications of what other devs want, and they are all at the mercy of the whims of higher-ups, but I find it hard to swallow that Mongo is only pawn in game of life.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 7:39:05 GMT
Why do people believe that Patrick Weekes is in charge of this stuff? I’m aware the writers write to the specifications of what other devs want, but I find it hard to swallow that Mongo is only pawn in game of life.It's a collaborative process. I'm sure there are many times where Darrah or Laidlaw changed their mind because of something Gaider said, or Gaider changed his mind because of something one of his writers said, or due to input from the art team, or the combat designers. David Gaider has amusingly described how he was overruled when it came to Fenris having no shoes. But then there are times where the bosses lay down the law and say, "Here's how it's going to be."
As now head writer, Weekes will have a lot of input, and his view will carry a lot of weight with the higher ups, but he is not the sole arbiter of these decisions.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 7:43:30 GMT
Exactly. His role isn’t limited to writing the odd codex and deciding what font they will use for the cover sheets on TPS reports. If he thinks darkspawn should lay eggs to reproduce and no one pushes back, then by Andraste the darkspawn will be oviparous.
That would be preferable to something as offensive as broodmothers, don’t you think?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2019 8:01:11 GMT
Are you referring to the whole “rape is involved in making Broodmothers” thing? Because that’s never been the case. They capture someone, force feed her tainted flesh and Darkspawn vomit, which causes her to mutate into a Broodmother.
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Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,462 Likes: 6,318
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 21, 2019 8:03:07 GMT
I'm pretty sure Broodmothers lay eggs already. The Children in Awakening certainly come out of them!
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 8:07:36 GMT
Are you referring to the whole “rape is involved in making Broodmothers” thing? Because that’s never been the case. They capture someone, force feed her tainted flesh and Darkspawn vomit, which causes her to mutate into a Broodmother. No, no, the entire concept of transforming women into broodmothers is extremely problematic and sexist. Shame on all of you if you enjoyed the first game and allowed this filth to go unchallenged. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go create ten sock puppet accounts on Twitter and lobby the devs to retcon this vile part of the lore out of the series. One of my voices will be heard. And while I’m at it, I’m going to be voicing a few objections about the physical appearance of elves, who have been offensively depicted as mostly white despite their role as a marginalized community, and their potential role as antagonists in DA4. Time to nip that in the bud. (These aren’t positions I hold. I’m merely trying to demonstrate how loud enough voices screaming “OFFENSIVE!” could fundamentally change the series if lent a non-discerning war.)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 8:08:06 GMT
I can think of several ways an ovipositor could be used offensively.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2019 8:20:34 GMT
At the risk of continuing and participating in a conversation that may get this thread closed down and all of us banned to the 7th circle of forum hell...nevertheless I feel compelled to offer my two cents.
BioWare for me, barring that very weird disaster that was such things in DA 2, has been one of the few companies/ people to handle 'diversity' the right way. Or to put it simply Multiple viewpoints are represented. No one is judged for having those view points. And there are multiple characters of the varying viewpoints that can be described as being 'good' and 'evil.' That is diversity.
As far as me personally I am not a big fan of 'fairness' or 'equality' in such things because that implies a quoata. And quoatas imply articial limitations on the craft and process of writing. Have as many straight characters that you want to, have as many gay characters, but the goal should be to tell the best story and not satisfy certain boxes.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 8:21:39 GMT
My box will never be satisfied.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 8:36:04 GMT
As far as me personally I am not a big fan of 'fairness' or 'equality' in such things because that implies a quoata. And quoatas imply articial limitations on the craft and process of writing. Have as many straight characters that you want to, have as many gay characters, but the goal should be to tell the best story and not satisfy certain boxes. This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2019 8:48:12 GMT
As far as me personally I am not a big fan of 'fairness' or 'equality' in such things because that implies a quoata. And quoatas imply articial limitations on the craft and process of writing. Have as many straight characters that you want to, have as many gay characters, but the goal should be to tell the best story and not satisfy certain boxes. This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. i think you missed my point. I wasnt saying that you should have a set number of one type of character but that the characters you do have, whatever they are, should be what is best to tell the story you want to tell. Quotas and artificial limits are secondary to a good story.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 8:54:27 GMT
This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. i think you missed my point. I wasnt saying that you should have a set number of one type of character but that the characters you do have, whatever they are, should be what is best to tell the story you want to tell. Quotas and artificial limits are secondary to a good story. I think we are talking about different things because yeah, I admit, I am missing the point. All I'm saying is that '' quotas '' are often used to demean and complain about LGBT characters, that they are all just filling a quota. But in the end, our surrounding culture already places artificial limits to big money making titles (especially), when it comes to what kind of characters, and how many, they are allowed to have. But rarely do people who complain about quotas criticize that. Maybe, I don't know.
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