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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 11, 2019 16:47:04 GMT
Did the player play as Lady Webb in the past? If they did, sounds awful. If they didn’t, it’s not comparable. Play? No. But you do get to relive some of her memories. So then as I said, it’s not comparable to the Inquisitor-Solas situation.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 16:51:19 GMT
Of course it is - it works about the same. And different missions have different people bantering with either Freelancer or one another (it's often more than one person). I think everyone, including you, knows what is meant by dragon age banter. I see no point in discussing this more though. Do arguments taking the form "you know I'm actually right about this, so let's not talk about it any more" ever work in practice?
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Post by ShadowAngel on Apr 11, 2019 17:15:30 GMT
Meh, I'm not to Interested in DA4 after Andromeda and Anthems shitty dev work, it's now become a consistent issue for Bioware, and if mismanagement is an issue, I've little excitement for DA4 as I expect them to waste time fucking around like they have been the last 4 years. How do you go from Inquisition to making mediocre crap?
As for live service concerns: I'm not bothered by it so long as it doesn't go to the extreme where they cut the game into pieces and drip feed you content. AC:O is a good live service SP focused game, DA4 "could" possibly do the same, it it could be like FO76, the division, destiny and make you wait for stuff that should've been there day one.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 11, 2019 17:39:34 GMT
Yes, when I say "Bioware is dead" I don't mean that they will be closed down soon, but rather, what I loved them for will be gone thanks to EA. Maybe Bioware will be around for another decade or two as a studio if they manage to make a monetization smash hit for EA. But the cinematic narrative driven (40-ish hours) singleplayer games I loved are a thing of the past. So for me, the question isn't "Can Bioware survive the backlash and bad management?" but "Do I care for what they're becoming?" And the answer is no. I don't care for EA's current direction AT ALL. And EA's direction is Bioware's direction. If it wasn't for maybe playing some more ME3MP (ironically) once in a while, I would uninstall Origin today. I own literally only ONE non Bioware game, and it's an indie title (Unravel). And as much as I enjoyed DAI, I don't feel like replaying it due to the bad open world design. Played a borrowed version of MEA and won't buy Anthem. So my Origin library is two games, plus Jade Empire I got for free.
The trilogy and DAO/DA2 are on my Xbox where I can replay them without any stupid online requirement and Origin account for the rest of the console's life.
It's not obvious to me why ME:A doesn't fit into the italed. It may not be a particularly good example of the style, but that's not quite the same thing. Sure, it's got an OW you can waste a bunch of time in, but you don't have to. I simply didn't like MEA, lol. Found it to be bland and the quest design extremely infuriating. It was a complete failure as a Mass Effect game for me in tone, and mediocre as a standalone. The open world is something I would characterize as an element Bioware decidedly does NOT excel at. It's not part of the now problematic term "Bioware magic". Their open worlds are terrible and always distract from the narrative even in better executed examples. I've replayed the trilogy a number of times but aborted my second PT of DAI even though I really liked it! But open worlds are do-it-once-and-never-again thing for me. I know that you can complete the story fairly quickly. But something about revisiting an open world I've spent 200 hours with already is very unappealing for me. Takes 4-5 replays of any non open world Bioware title to reach the playtime of my first completionist PT of DAI. Burn-out happens so much faster with open world games just due to the way they waste your time with clearing huge maps and reading all notes for lore-immersion.
Regardless of my opinion of MEA and open world design in recent Bioware games, I doubt we'll even see a real singleplayer game with just a separate MP mode like MEA again in the future. It's just not lucrative for EA. DLC aren't very attractive anymore as the only future revenue. MEA didn't even get DLC! EA wants shared world crap and MTX... IN THE CORE EXPERIENCE. Shared worlds create peer pressure which creates incentive to buy shit to look cool and keep up. Ugh.
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 11, 2019 17:53:00 GMT
Of course. I'm not big on playing with other people, unless we're talking about ME3's multiplayer. Right, but it isn’t just that. Those modes were separate. I like having banter while exploring, for instance. If the companions are designed to have other people jump in then there is no point in having banter. We lose that feature. That said, I don’t have the impression that this was ever a possibility discussed at BioWare. More speculation on Jason’s part. I really doubt they would go this route. Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 17:53:05 GMT
I think everyone, including you, knows what is meant by dragon age banter. I see no point in discussing this more though. Do arguments taking the form "you know I'm actually right about this, so let's not talk about it any more" ever work in practice?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 17:54:44 GMT
Play? No. But you do get to relive some of her memories. So then as I said, it’s not comparable to the Inquisitor-Solas situation. Now I've got to hear what you thought of Hawke in DAI.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Apr 11, 2019 17:56:16 GMT
So then as I said, it’s not comparable to the Inquisitor-Solas situation. Now I've got to hear what you thought of Hawke in DAI. Even I can answer that. Hanako hated it.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 18:15:46 GMT
It's not obvious to me why ME:A doesn't fit into the italed. It may not be a particularly good example of the style, but that's not quite the same thing. Sure, it's got an OW you can waste a bunch of time in, but you don't have to. I simply didn't like MEA, lol. Found it to be bland and the quest design extremely infuriating. It was a complete failure as a Mass Effect game for me in tone, and mediocre as a standalone. The open world is something I would characterize as an element Bioware decidedly does NOT excel at. It's not part of the now problematic term "Bioware magic". Their open worlds are terrible and always distract from the narrative even in better executed examples. I've replayed the trilogy a number of times but aborted my second PT of DAI even though I really liked it! But open worlds are do-it-once-and-never-again thing for me. I know that you can complete the story fairly quickly. But something about revisiting an open world I've spent 200 hours with already is very unappealing for me. Takes 4-5 replays of any non open world Bioware title to reach the playtime of my first completionist PT of DAI. Burn-out happens so much faster with open world games just due to the way they waste your time with clearing huge maps and reading all notes for lore-immersion.
Regardless of my opinion of MEA and open world design in recent Bioware games, I doubt we'll even see a real singleplayer game with just a separate MP mode like MEA again in the future. It's just not lucrative for EA. DLC aren't very attractive anymore as the only future revenue. MEA didn't even get DLC! EA wants shared world crap and MTX... IN THE CORE EXPERIENCE. Shared worlds create peer pressure which creates incentive to buy shit to look cool and keep up. Ugh. So having an OW is too much of a distraction for the game to work for you even if you don't actually have to engage with that aspect of the game? And therefore ME:A is the wrong kind of game for you? (I'd say ME:A's better than DAI in this regard because the Nomad lets you just blitz to your destination, while DAI will force you into REs on the overland map.) I don't see how burn-out is really faster. 200 hours on one run or 200 hours on five runs is still 200 hours. And completionism isn't a great approach to an OW game in the first place, particularly when you don't seem to like the results. As for no real SP at all, I'm more sanguine about that. Even Anthem's just about completely playable SP-only, and the campaign seems to play better that way. Though that last has something to do with Edmonton ignoring advice from Bio Austin.
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Post by leadintea on Apr 11, 2019 18:16:38 GMT
Right, but it isn’t just that. Those modes were separate. I like having banter while exploring, for instance. If the companions are designed to have other people jump in then there is no point in having banter. We lose that feature. That said, I don’t have the impression that this was ever a possibility discussed at BioWare. More speculation on Jason’s part. I really doubt they would go this route. Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. Didn't Patrick Weekes or Mark Darrah tweet a response to someone a while back that AI tactics like in DAO and DAII won't likely be a thing in their games going forward? Hopefully I'm mistaken because that sounds horrible for a party based RPG like the DA series. I'm also wondering whether this means we'll have a classless protagonist since people may want to experiment with different loadouts on their main playthrough and I can't say I'm thrilled with that prospect either...
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 18:20:31 GMT
Right, but it isn’t just that. Those modes were separate. I like having banter while exploring, for instance. If the companions are designed to have other people jump in then there is no point in having banter. We lose that feature. That said, I don’t have the impression that this was ever a possibility discussed at BioWare. More speculation on Jason’s part. I really doubt they would go this route. Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. Could be. This is literally what happened with NWN's original design, after all.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 11, 2019 18:27:37 GMT
I think everyone, including you, knows what is meant by dragon age banter. I see no point in discussing this more though. Do arguments taking the form "you know I'm actually right about this, so let's not talk about it any more" ever work in practice? How about it’s off topic so let’s just drop it?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 11, 2019 18:29:03 GMT
Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. Didn't Patrick Weekes or Mark Darrah tweet a response to someone a while back that AI tactics like in DAO and DAII won't likely be a thing in their games going forward? Hopefully I'm mistaken because that sounds horrible for a party based RPG like the DA series. I'm also wondering whether this means we'll have a classless protagonist since people may want to experiment with different loadouts on their main playthrough and I can't say I'm thrilled with that prospect either... A spirit called Samantha will merge with the protagonist giving them the instant ability to master any class.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 18:30:24 GMT
Didn't Patrick Weekes or Mark Darrah tweet a response to someone a while back that AI tactics like in DAO and DAII won't likely be a thing in their games going forward? Hopefully I'm mistaken because that sounds horrible for a party based RPG like the DA series. I'm also wondering whether this means we'll have a classless protagonist since people may want to experiment with different loadouts on their main playthrough and I can't say I'm thrilled with that prospect either... A spirit called Samantha will merge with the protagonist giving them the instant ability to master any class.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 11, 2019 18:31:22 GMT
Right, but it isn’t just that. Those modes were separate. I like having banter while exploring, for instance. If the companions are designed to have other people jump in then there is no point in having banter. We lose that feature. That said, I don’t have the impression that this was ever a possibility discussed at BioWare. More speculation on Jason’s part. I really doubt they would go this route. Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. Yeah, tactics were pretty simplified in DAI and are now going to be a thing of the past apparently
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 11, 2019 18:32:17 GMT
So having an OW is too much of a distraction for the game to work for you even if you don't actually have to engage with that aspect of the game? And therefore ME:A is the wrong kind of game for you? (I'd say ME:A's better than DAI in this regard because the Nomad lets you just blitz to your destination, while DAI will force you into REs on the overland map.) I don't see how burn-out is really faster. 200 hours on one run or 200 hours on five runs is still 200 hours. And completionism isn't a great approach to an OW game in the first place, particularly when you don't seem to like the results. As for no real SP at all, I'm more sanguine about that. Even Anthem's just about completely playable SP-only, and the campaign seems to play better that way. Though that last has something to do with Edmonton ignoring advice from Bio Austin. No, OW is just not done well by Bioware and not the reason I enjoyed their games. So I'd rather they focused more on story and choices again rather than large empty open worlds that seem to give them a headache anyway. Which they wanted to do before EA said NOOOO... I'm of the somewhat outlier opinion that DAI was their best open world, simply because it had the most variety. I actually enjoyed finding notes and learning about the history of each location. DAI was incredibly beautiful. The first time I visited the Storm Coast I stood there for five minutes looking at the ocean, watching the waves roll in. Gosh, that felt GOOD. Almost like being at a real beach, I could almost feel it. I was transfixed...
You basically explained why MEA's planets were inferior: the Nomad. The maps were designed to quickly traverse. And good thing too because there was nothing to see and do! It was just one boring ride to point X to pick up a crate or such nonsense and then return. Nothing to see in between but endless rock or sand... Havarl was different. Dense vegetation. That was cool. The moment it was revealed that you would traverse in a bulky vehicle I knew the maps would be big and empty. The environments were pretty, sure, but very same-y? Along came Anthem with just ONE biome. Each subsequent open world has LESS variety! So more boring to me.
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Post by leadintea on Apr 11, 2019 18:33:07 GMT
Didn't Patrick Weekes or Mark Darrah tweet a response to someone a while back that AI tactics like in DAO and DAII won't likely be a thing in their games going forward? Hopefully I'm mistaken because that sounds horrible for a party based RPG like the DA series. I'm also wondering whether this means we'll have a classless protagonist since people may want to experiment with different loadouts on their main playthrough and I can't say I'm thrilled with that prospect either... A spirit called Samantha will merge with the protagonist giving them the instant ability to master any class. If this is the case, I'd rather have the Inquisitor back as MC since they have a set class.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 18:37:15 GMT
While class restrictions are stupid DA lore is pretty much set against it. Doesn't mean they can't do it, just that its unlikely.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 11, 2019 18:38:22 GMT
And then there's the games conditioning players into believing that one can accomplish immensely communally useful achievements - save the world, overthrow the tyrants and replace the evil regime, protect the innocents, solve all people's problems - by doing nothing except dramatic grandstand about right and wrong and stick to the clearly outlined and thoroughly simplified narrative you've been fed. Which I personally think is the most problematic and widely destabilizing effect of these kinds of games in RL. Ah yes, one of my pet peeves. People sometimes ask me why I have such objections to these setups, and the obvious answer "because the world, and human nature, don't work that way, almost all the time" rarely seems to have any weight with them. Having said that, do you really think people are conditioned to think that way IRL by the games? One would think people have the ability to distinguish between fiction and reality. I think if people like these setups, it's because they affirm their morality, and their wish that things would work that way more often, even while remaining aware that they really don't. Most of the time, anyway. There are always a few ignoramuses.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 11, 2019 18:42:00 GMT
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Post by fchopin on Apr 11, 2019 18:44:53 GMT
If they wanted the Inquisitor done, they shouldn’t have made Trespasser. The base game had a concrete ending where their job was done and didn’t know about Solas and his plans. But no, instead they made a DLC that ruins a character and not one but two games. The problem is that not all people played Trespasser. I did buy Trespasser but i have never played the DLC.
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Post by phoray on Apr 11, 2019 18:50:29 GMT
Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. ugh, suddenly my imagination let me consider the idea that all these combination attacks I've never bothered achieving... some "friend" will be ordering me to "do the thing" that will set up their combo, so even I can't play my own character the way I'd want to. Strategy components of controlling companions will be tenuous at best, with the assumption that most of their players will be playing coop. Making your adventure with companions into the Solo thing SP RPG people have been doing with Anthem.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 18:54:41 GMT
So having an OW is too much of a distraction for the game to work for you even if you don't actually have to engage with that aspect of the game? And therefore ME:A is the wrong kind of game for you? (I'd say ME:A's better than DAI in this regard because the Nomad lets you just blitz to your destination, while DAI will force you into REs on the overland map.) I don't see how burn-out is really faster. 200 hours on one run or 200 hours on five runs is still 200 hours. And completionism isn't a great approach to an OW game in the first place, particularly when you don't seem to like the results. As for no real SP at all, I'm more sanguine about that. Even Anthem's just about completely playable SP-only, and the campaign seems to play better that way. Though that last has something to do with Edmonton ignoring advice from Bio Austin. No, OW is just not done well by Bioware and not the reason I enjoyed their games. So I'd rather they focused more on story and choices again rather than large empty open worlds that seem to give them a headache anyway. Which they wanted to do before EA said NOOOO... I'm of the somewhat outlier opinion that DAI was their best open world, simply because it had the most variety. I actually enjoyed finding notes and learning about the history of each location. DAI was incredibly beautiful. The first time I visited the Storm Coast I stood there for five minutes looking at the ocean, watching the waves roll in. Gosh, that felt GOOD. Almost like being at a real beach, I could almost feel it. I was transfixed...
You basically explained why MEA's planets were inferior: the Nomad. The maps were designed to quickly traverse. And good thing too because there was nothing to see and do! It was just one boring ride to point X to pick up a crate or such nonsense and then return. Nothing to see in between but endless rock or sand... Havarl was different. Dense vegetation. That was cool. The moment it was revealed that you would traverse in a bulky vehicle I knew the maps would be big and empty. The environments were pretty, sure, but very same-y? Along came Anthem with just ONE biome. Each subsequent open world has LESS variety! So more boring to me.
I wasn't clear. Bad OW, good OW, it's not mandatory OW. Cut out all the OW from ME:A, which you can do at will except for driving to the three monoliths and vault on Eos and maybe five minutes' drive on Voeld if you don't go to Havarl instead, and is what's left of a different genre from the trilogy games? (Plus a little bit more OW if you have to do all of the companions' missions, though.) As for "big and empty," how does a larger map with faster travel compare to a smaller map with slower travel? If anything, I'd say that the ME:A maps are effectively smaller than the DAI maps, since I can cross them faster; playing time is the useful metric here, I think. Similar methodology for density of content. The major difference is that navigating the terrain was explicitly deigned to be difficult in DAI, which has poor sight-lines and much impassable terrain.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:00:29 GMT
And then there's the games conditioning players into believing that one can accomplish immensely communally useful achievements - save the world, overthrow the tyrants and replace the evil regime, protect the innocents, solve all people's problems - by doing nothing except dramatic grandstand about right and wrong and stick to the clearly outlined and thoroughly simplified narrative you've been fed. Which I personally think is the most problematic and widely destabilizing effect of these kinds of games in RL. Ah yes, one of my pet peeves. People sometimes ask me why I have such objections to these setups, and the obvious answer "because the world, and human nature, don't work that way, almost all the time" rarely seems to have any weight with them. Having said that, do you really think people are conditioned to think that way IRL by the games? One would think people have the ability to distinguish between fiction and reality. I think if people like these setups, it's because they affirm their morality, and their wish that things would work that way more often, even while remaining aware that they really don't. Most of the time, anyway. There are always a few ignoramuses.
Real life doesn't work like that. But many stories and games do (thus why it is called "escapist entertainment"). And for better or for worse, Mass Effect was broadcasting throughout much of he series that it was one of them. Not like, say, DAO. Where you went into the endgame KNOWING the likely consequences of facing the archdemon. And I'm pretty sure people don't play The Witcher games for the warm fuzzies...
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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Iakus
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:03:11 GMT
Exactly, suddenly companion features will be lost or first on the cutting room floor because the supposed best way to play will be co-op. ugh, suddenly my imagination let me consider the idea that all these combination attacks I've never bothered achieving... some "friend" will be ordering me to "do the thing" that will set up their combo, so even I can't play my own character the way I'd want to. Strategy components of controlling companions will be tenuous at best, with the assumption that most of their players will be playing coop. Making your adventure with companions into the Solo thing SP RPG people have been doing with Anthem. If I'm playing a coop game, I expect to be sitting around a table rolling dice and with a paper character sheet in front of me.
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