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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 19:11:01 GMT
If all we lose is companion tactics in exchange for online coop i can get behind that trade.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:13:04 GMT
If all we lose is companion tactics in exchange for online coop i can get behind that trade. I'd rather not be f*cked for wanting to solo...
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Apr 11, 2019 19:14:35 GMT
Co-op companions? Hard. Pass.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 11, 2019 19:19:20 GMT
I wasn't clear. Bad OW, good OW, it's not mandatory OW. Cut out all the OW from ME:A, which you can do at will except for driving to the three monoliths and vault on Eos and maybe five minutes' drive on Voeld if you don't go to Havarl instead, and is what's left of a different genre from the trilogy games? (Plus a little bit more OW if you have to do all of the companions' missions, though.) As for "big and empty," how does a larger map with faster travel compare to a smaller map with slower travel? If anything, I'd say that the ME:A maps are effectively smaller than the DAI maps, since I can cross them faster; playing time is the useful metric here, I think. Similar methodology for density of content. The major difference is that navigating the terrain was explicitly deigned to be difficult in DAI, which has poor sight-lines and much impassable terrain. OK, if you cut out the OW, then what's left is still... not good. Horrible quest design, bland side quests in general and bland or outright cringe-worthy writing is what's left. Which is ALSO not even close to the awesomeness of the trilogy and Dragon Age. So, ditch OW, replace basically everything the game (especially Ryder) was with something better and I might have liked it...
DAI was their last good game, maybe even a great game despite the open world (which I even loved at first before I had any comparisons to good open world design like Bethesda games or W3). What I wanted for DA4 was basically DA2 set in a sprawling lively Minrathous with some outskirts like Kirkwall with lots of schemes at play, lots of social commentary. Small tragedies everywhere. Hard choices. Get to know the city from the perspective of a commoner (or somebody pretending to be one). Then maybe war with the Qunari where your choices impact how that war goes. Solas showing up at the worst moment, complicating things, trying to rally the qunari against Tevinter to weaken any resistance against his Elven Glory plans.
I feel like Joplin was maybe going to be something along those lines. *sigh*
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 11, 2019 19:29:45 GMT
Ah yes, one of my pet peeves. People sometimes ask me why I have such objections to these setups, and the obvious answer "because the world, and human nature, don't work that way, almost all the time" rarely seems to have any weight with them. Having said that, do you really think people are conditioned to think that way IRL by the games? One would think people have the ability to distinguish between fiction and reality. I think if people like these setups, it's because they affirm their morality, and their wish that things would work that way more often, even while remaining aware that they really don't. Most of the time, anyway. There are always a few ignoramuses.
Real life doesn't work like that. But many stories and games do (thus why it is called "escapist entertainment"). And for better or for worse, Mass Effect was broadcasting throughout much of he series that it was one of them. Not like, say, DAO. Where you went into the endgame KNOWING the likely consequences of facing the archdemon. And I'm pretty sure people don't play The Witcher games for the warm fuzzies... And here we have why some people, including myself, find DAO and The Witcher games so appealing.... it's actually not less escapist than the other kind since we don't have those kinds of heroes IRL, but they present less idealistic worlds wherein our heroes must act, and the rules of which they must consider.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:33:31 GMT
Real life doesn't work like that. But many stories and games do (thus why it is called "escapist entertainment"). And for better or for worse, Mass Effect was broadcasting throughout much of he series that it was one of them. Not like, say, DAO. Where you went into the endgame KNOWING the likely consequences of facing the archdemon. And I'm pretty sure people don't play The Witcher games for the warm fuzzies... And here we have why some people, including myself, find DAO and The Witcher games so appealing.... it's actually not less escapist than the other kind since we don't have those kinds of heroes IRL, but they present less idealistic worlds wherein our heroes must act, and the rules of which they must consider. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you gotta admit it's understandable that people would be p*ssed if, say, the Witcher 3 had a pat, golden ending where Geralt fixes everything after several games of grim & gritty storyline. You'd be right to be angry for having the rug pulled out from under you that way.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 19:37:09 GMT
If all we lose is companion tactics in exchange for online coop i can get behind that trade. I'd rather not be f*cked for wanting to solo... who said you'd be fucked? Granted we probably disagree here but the companion AI in Inquisition was adequate and Andromeda was even better. Hell to fiddle around in menues and be a replacement for the devs doing AI is not why i play RPGs. That kind of mechanical control is obviously attractive but it's hardly role playing. Sometimes the opposite.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 19:37:59 GMT
And here we have why some people, including myself, find DAO and The Witcher games so appealing.... it's actually not less escapist than the other kind since we don't have those kinds of heroes IRL, but they present less idealistic worlds wherein our heroes must act, and the rules of which they must consider. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you gotta admit it's understandable that people would be p*ssed if, say, the Witcher 3 had a pat, golden ending where Geralt fixes everything after several games of grim & gritty storyline. You'd be right to be angry for having the rug pulled out from under you that way. ...Why?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:45:03 GMT
I'd rather not be f*cked for wanting to solo... who said you'd be fucked? Granted we probably disagree here but the companion AI in Inquisition was adequate and Andromeda was even better. Hell to fiddle around in menues and be a replacement for the devs doing AI is not why i play RPGs. That kind of mechanical control is obviously attractive but it's hardly role playing. Sometimes the opposite. The only things the companions were good for was drawing fire or standing in it. The first is okay if they're actually designed for that role. The other is just sad. I've seen Dorian stand in a pool of electricity until he died. Cole goes down more than Isabela. i'd rather they brought back the old tactics menu and let me plug in behaviors that I find useful in a fight. Something more than "use this power. Don't use this power. And Use This Power A LOT!!!" Anthem? I go into fights in Anthem assuming I'm going to be alone. Which is kinda weird given you're supposed to be party-based combat.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 11, 2019 19:46:41 GMT
And here we have why some people, including myself, find DAO and The Witcher games so appealing.... it's actually not less escapist than the other kind since we don't have those kinds of heroes IRL, but they present less idealistic worlds wherein our heroes must act, and the rules of which they must consider. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you gotta admit it's understandable that people would be p*ssed if, say, the Witcher 3 had a pat, golden ending where Geralt fixes everything after several games of grim & gritty storyline. You'd be right to be angry for having the rug pulled out from under you that way. I'm not seeing any disagreement with anything I said. I would indeed be pissed if DAO or TW3 betrayed their less idealistic perspective in the end. Having said that, doing that may be the point of a story, but in that case I'd expect the possibility of that to be communicated somewhat in advance, otherwise the ending would be perceived to come out of the blue.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:47:12 GMT
And there's nothing wrong with that. But you gotta admit it's understandable that people would be p*ssed if, say, the Witcher 3 had a pat, golden ending where Geralt fixes everything after several games of grim & gritty storyline. You'd be right to be angry for having the rug pulled out from under you that way. ...Why? Because that's not the story you've been led to believe you were in. It's not the world you were told you were inhabiting.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:48:38 GMT
Now I've got to hear what you thought of Hawke in DAI. Even I can answer that. Hanako hated it. And what makes anyone think that the Inquisitor being in DA4 would turn out any better? I mean, I for one hated what happened to Shepard across the trilogy! I do NOT want a repeat!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 11, 2019 19:52:18 GMT
Even I can answer that. Hanako hated it. And what makes anyone think that the Inquisitor being in DA4 would turn out any better? I mean, I for one hated what happened to Shepard across the trilogy! I do NOT want a repeat! Because some control is better than no control. So even if it was worst case it would still be better than the complete abominations that were Hawke and Revan. Meanwhile best case has even more control than before.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 11, 2019 19:57:15 GMT
I guess I just don't see how the Inky proclaiming " *I* have a world to save." and " *WE* will save/stop Solas." is in any way indicative of retirement. What is your interpretation of Hawke in DAI? I’ll make it easier and say you don’t leave him in the Fade. If you say Hawke’s story continues, then fine, the Inky’s story may continue in DA4 in a similar way and this stuff about bringing the Inky’s story to a close is overblown. If you say Hawke’s story did not continue, because he wasn’t the PC, and his appearance in DAI was just a cameo, then his story concluded in DA2.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2019 19:58:45 GMT
And what makes anyone think that the Inquisitor being in DA4 would turn out any better? I mean, I for one hated what happened to Shepard across the trilogy! I do NOT want a repeat! Because some control is better than no control. So even if it was worst case it would still be better than the complete abominations that were Hawke and Revan. Meanwhile best case has even more control than before. I couldn't control Shepard agreeing to work for Cerberus I couldn't control the cringe-inducing lines I was forced to say to the VS in ME2. I had very limited control over who I could recruit for my team. And that's just in ME2! No, I don't want the Inquisitor back. I'd probably be forced to work for the Archon or something.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 11, 2019 20:04:37 GMT
A good RPG starts with a blank-slate protagonist, to allow each playthrough to be a substantially different experience.
BioWare did this successfully in NWN, KotOR, DAO (some origins), and DAI. But that's it.
The next best option is to provide a defined background but offer considerable leeway on outlook. BioWare did this in BG, BG2, JE, DAO (some origins), and MEA.
All of Bioware's other RPGs (I have not played Anthem) failed to meet these standards.
The aborted Project Joplin sounds to me like a fairly tightly crafted narrative in the style of Alpha Protocol. Lots of player freedom at pre-defined moments, but a tightly defined narrative overall.
It remains to be seen whether the reboot will result in a higher-quality RPG.
This whole series of events, though, just makes me miss the open development process of DAO, where we got to watch development and offer feedback for YEARS as the game took shape.
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 11, 2019 20:13:28 GMT
If all we lose is companion tactics in exchange for online coop i can get behind that trade. Companion tactics were something that helped distinguish DA:O from other games I've played. If we lost them, I'd be disappointed. If we also lost the ability to control our companions... well, I'd be more than disappointed. Because some control is better than no control. So even if it was worst case it would still be better than the complete abominations that were Hawke and Revan. Meanwhile best case has even more control than before. I couldn't control Shepard agreeing to work for Cerberus I couldn't control the cringe-inducing lines I was forced to say to the VS in ME2. I had very limited control over who I could recruit for my team. And that's just in ME2! No, I don't want the Inquisitor back. I'd probably be forced to work for the Archon or something. Congratulations, now I'm tempted to work my creative muscle into brainstorming ideas for a ME2: Mega-Budget Edition. It's gonna be overworked pretty soon.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 20:14:03 GMT
I wasn't clear. Bad OW, good OW, it's not mandatory OW. Cut out all the OW from ME:A, which you can do at will except for driving to the three monoliths and vault on Eos and maybe five minutes' drive on Voeld if you don't go to Havarl instead, and is what's left of a different genre from the trilogy games? (Plus a little bit more OW if you have to do all of the companions' missions, though.) As for "big and empty," how does a larger map with faster travel compare to a smaller map with slower travel? If anything, I'd say that the ME:A maps are effectively smaller than the DAI maps, since I can cross them faster; playing time is the useful metric here, I think. Similar methodology for density of content. The major difference is that navigating the terrain was explicitly deigned to be difficult in DAI, which has poor sight-lines and much impassable terrain. OK, if you cut out the OW, then what's left is still... not good. Horrible quest design, bland side quests in general and bland or outright cringe-worthy writing is what's left. Which is ALSO not even close to the awesomeness of the trilogy and Dragon Age. So, ditch OW, replace basically everything the game (especially Ryder) was with something better and I might have liked it...
Didn't say it was good, although I liked it more than you. Like I said, ME:A may not be a particularly good example of the style, but that doesn't prevent it from being played in the style you like. You've got two unrelated problems with the design. It's not sensible to conflate the two issues, particularly when one of them is avoidable. Remember, we got here because you posted "the cinematic narrative driven (40-ish hours) singleplayer games I loved are a thing of the past.." This doesn't have much to do with the writing quality, unless you figure bad writing is now a design goal at Bio. My point was simply that ME:A is a cinematic narrative-driven 40-ish hour singleplayer game, with a bunch of OW stuff on top of that which you are free to ignore.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 11, 2019 20:14:47 GMT
If they wanted the Inquisitor done, they shouldn’t have made Trespasser. The base game had a concrete ending where their job was done and didn’t know about Solas and his plans. But no, instead they made a DLC that ruins a character and not one but two games. The problem is that not all people played Trespasser. I did buy Trespasser but i have never played the DLC. So if the Inquisitor makes an appearance in the next game, would your Inquisitor still have his/her left arm?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 20:16:12 GMT
If all we lose is companion tactics in exchange for online coop i can get behind that trade. Companion tactics were something that helped distinguish DA:O from other games I've played. If we lost them, I'd be disappointed. If we also lost the ability to control our companions... well, I'd be more than disappointed. I couldn't control Shepard agreeing to work for Cerberus I couldn't control the cringe-inducing lines I was forced to say to the VS in ME2. I had very limited control over who I could recruit for my team. And that's just in ME2! No, I don't want the Inquisitor back. I'd probably be forced to work for the Archon or something. Congratulations, now I'm tempted to work my creative muscle into brainstorming ideas for a ME2: Mega-Budget Edition. It's gonna be overworked pretty soon. I'd be mildly surprised if they took away direct companion control.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Apr 11, 2019 20:16:45 GMT
Because some control is better than no control. So even if it was worst case it would still be better than the complete abominations that were Hawke and Revan. Meanwhile best case has even more control than before. I couldn't control Shepard agreeing to work for Cerberus I couldn't control the cringe-inducing lines I was forced to say to the VS in ME2. I had very limited control over who I could recruit for my team. And that's just in ME2! No, I don't want the Inquisitor back. I'd probably be forced to work for the Archon or something. There's always different scenarios where our characters are railroaded into doing something/or not beyond our control. However, I at least want the characters that I role-played from a previous game to stay somewhat consistent from the small amount of choices I was given at the time. My Hawke felt like a completely different person. while I suppose that can be a pretty good reason for not wanting the inquisitor to come back at all. I have a strong feeling they'll be bringing the inquisitor back, most likely as an NPC in a small part, although that's just speculation on my end.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Apr 11, 2019 20:17:17 GMT
The problem is that not all people played Trespasser. I did buy Trespasser but i have never played the DLC. So if the Inquisitor makes an appearance in the next game, would your Inquisitor still have his/her left arm? Cory was canon even if you didn't play Legacy, so I'd assume no
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Post by colfoley on Apr 11, 2019 20:19:20 GMT
I imagine that one of the first objectives of the game IF you return as the Inquisitor would be to find someone who can grow you a new arm.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2019 20:19:47 GMT
If they wanted the Inquisitor done, they shouldn’t have made Trespasser. The base game had a concrete ending where their job was done and didn’t know about Solas and his plans. But no, instead they made a DLC that ruins a character and not one but two games. The problem is that not all people played Trespasser. I did buy Trespasser but i have never played the DLC. Out of idle curiosity, why haven't you?
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 11, 2019 20:20:10 GMT
I imagine that one of the first objectives of the game IF you return as the Inquisitor would be to find someone who can grow you a new arm. So, blood magic?
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