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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 20, 2016 1:36:15 GMT
As a Canadian, I would not want to build national pride based on misinformation, omission or other such deceits, nor would I want to build it around negation of another country, whether it's derogatory or not. I haven't visited that aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie, but if they're really being that misleading, it's a damn shame. The site Hawkeye linked earlier is indeed a great find and a good place to start if comparing culture is of interest to you. While it's hardly comprehensive, it points out things that are really rather obvious but are often forgotten. I knew some of this years ago but not having any reason to engage these topics since, they've slipped my mind. The truth is, Canada is kind of screwed in the "building a strong culture" department due to the extreme we take our multiculturalism to, or rather some of us do. The Aussie site calls it right: we put all the chips on multiculturalism to appease the Quebecers and to this day we're the only ones still buying into it. This is why there is no Canadian identity to speak of. French Canadians need to be French, everyone else needs to be what they are and Anglo Canadians have to accept and protect it all at the cost of building anything themselves. But sure, at least we're not America. How dare they have a cohesive identity and a media image half the world wants to emulate? The media thing is a symptom, not a cause. Yes, American style media is everywhere. But like Hawkeye said, I don't believe there's any intent behind it (apart from monetary profit, obviously), good or bad. It just is. IF it has a disproportionate effect on us, it's because we have nothing to counter it with. Canadian programing is still going to be "American-style" because it can't really be anything else, except maybe French. And, frankly fuck that. Multiculturalism means Quebecers get to be Quebecers, it doesn't mean the rest of us follow suit. So we're at a a deadlock. We need to make our own thing, but we're in such a disfavorable position, I can't see how. Given the trend of globalization it may be too late.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 4:39:32 GMT
Canadians are quite aware that a good number of Americans feel that way about them, so don't you think it would make sense that Canadians would react negatively to their attitude? Also, don't you think there is some justification to Canadians wanting to preserve their successes? History? Culture? What you call 'smug' is just them deflecting the attitude they see directed at Canada, coming from the States. They don't want to lose their identity, but that's what's happening, having the US so close by. Oh god, I just saw a grammar mistake I made and I now need to fix it but can't... It makes sense in the idea that Americans do so with 'hahaha! them lousy Canucks are hopelessly small fry compared to we mighty Yanks!" But very, very, very exceptionally few Americans hold that attitude. Rather, I think that Canadians could also look at some of the reasons why Americans don't have the time or need to worry about Canada. One reason is that, unlike Canada, most of our population is spread out across the country in all directions. Compare this to Canada, in which an estimated 75% of Canadians live within 100 miles (or 161 kilometers) of the US border. This number is much different for Americans, the vast minority of whom live within 100 miles of the border with Canada. The two largest cities I can think of near the border are Detroit and Rochester (maybe Cleveland if you count water boundaries). To most people here, simple geography makes Canada seem kind of abstract in terms of distance (I live comparatively closer to Canada than most Americans, and it's still about a 4-5 hour drive to the nearest border crossing in Detroit.) Canada is definitely out of most people's minds down here. Add that to the fact that physically, most Canadians are not distinguishable from Americans. We share the same language, we're broadly white, and we both have enough diversity in ethnicity that even if you have an Asian-Canadian down here, they're likely to just be mistaken for an Asian-Americans. And despite the differences in accent (which is more distinguished in some parts of the country compared to the others; for example, a Canadian with all but the most pronounced accent will still sound less pronounced and more familiar than a person with a thick Southern drawl.) Inversely, I'd wager that most Canadians could probably pick out an American faster than the opposite due to awareness of such differences that most Americans don't have. And I think this, both in part, and in idea is what leads Canadians to have a more... pronounced and active alertness towards Americans, which might lead to an increased sensitivity and reactivity in terms of how they hold their attitudes. Basically... don't take it personally, the sentiment Americans have. Even here with your response, I'm already detecting some of the sensitivity and reactivity here; To be honest with you, I think it's subconsciously exaggerated by most Canadians in a bizarre form of cognitive bias. I am not a psychologist and I have no evidence to back up this hypothesis of course. But I think you guys generally tend to default to an automatically negative assumption when Americans are concerned or involved with the topic of interest. As I stated previously, there doesn't have to be a correlation to wanting to preserve your success and identity and using it to covertly or overtly feed an anti-American sentiment or bias. You have a lot to be proud of, and we Americans aren't trying to take away your success. When the Blue Jays went to the ALCS last year, many Canadians expressed the sentiment that they were glad that they, as Canadians, were better than Americans, specifically at their own sport, and were glad to rub that in Americans faces. I found that to be rather asinine, since a large proportion of the Blue Jays were made up of non-Canadian players (many of whom weren't even from the United States.) To me, that seems like an overt attempt at wanting to take away from American successes. If that's the sentiment that Canadians have in general, I think it's relatively hypocritical. As I said, the best way to preserve your successes is to make them something to be proud of for their own merits (which in fairness, many Canadians do), not use them as cultural capital to say "see Americans? We've done something worthwhile and you should be proud of it!" Obviously, I'm being kind of negative myself, but I'm trying to be fair. But I think that if that's what many Canadians see from America, then I think they're trying to project some kind of insecurity onto us. Why should you need us to validate your own identity and image? Why would you want us too? That's what I see. You want to distinguish yourselves from the United States, but you want us to validate it by acknowledging the differences ourselves. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that you're doing this yourself. I agree, there is some sensitivity and it's in how I view the relationship between Canada and the US...It reminds me of a kind of sibling rivalry and I identify with the position Canada is in, while the States (as of late) makes me think of my louder, extremely overbearing older sister. So yeah, as much as I try to remain objective, I do take some stuff personally. And YES I was born in the US but moved up here when I was 4.5 and never moved back.
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Post by mattig89ch on Oct 20, 2016 9:49:42 GMT
Oh god, I just saw a grammar mistake I made and I now need to fix it but can't... It makes sense in the idea that Americans do so with 'hahaha! them lousy Canucks are hopelessly small fry compared to we mighty Yanks!" But very, very, very exceptionally few Americans hold that attitude. Rather, I think that Canadians could also look at some of the reasons why Americans don't have the time or need to worry about Canada. One reason is that, unlike Canada, most of our population is spread out across the country in all directions. Compare this to Canada, in which an estimated 75% of Canadians live within 100 miles (or 161 kilometers) of the US border. This number is much different for Americans, the vast minority of whom live within 100 miles of the border with Canada. The two largest cities I can think of near the border are Detroit and Rochester (maybe Cleveland if you count water boundaries). To most people here, simple geography makes Canada seem kind of abstract in terms of distance (I live comparatively closer to Canada than most Americans, and it's still about a 4-5 hour drive to the nearest border crossing in Detroit.) Canada is definitely out of most people's minds down here. Add that to the fact that physically, most Canadians are not distinguishable from Americans. We share the same language, we're broadly white, and we both have enough diversity in ethnicity that even if you have an Asian-Canadian down here, they're likely to just be mistaken for an Asian-Americans. And despite the differences in accent (which is more distinguished in some parts of the country compared to the others; for example, a Canadian with all but the most pronounced accent will still sound less pronounced and more familiar than a person with a thick Southern drawl.) Inversely, I'd wager that most Canadians could probably pick out an American faster than the opposite due to awareness of such differences that most Americans don't have. And I think this, both in part, and in idea is what leads Canadians to have a more... pronounced and active alertness towards Americans, which might lead to an increased sensitivity and reactivity in terms of how they hold their attitudes. Basically... don't take it personally, the sentiment Americans have. Even here with your response, I'm already detecting some of the sensitivity and reactivity here; To be honest with you, I think it's subconsciously exaggerated by most Canadians in a bizarre form of cognitive bias. I am not a psychologist and I have no evidence to back up this hypothesis of course. But I think you guys generally tend to default to an automatically negative assumption when Americans are concerned or involved with the topic of interest. As I stated previously, there doesn't have to be a correlation to wanting to preserve your success and identity and using it to covertly or overtly feed an anti-American sentiment or bias. You have a lot to be proud of, and we Americans aren't trying to take away your success. When the Blue Jays went to the ALCS last year, many Canadians expressed the sentiment that they were glad that they, as Canadians, were better than Americans, specifically at their own sport, and were glad to rub that in Americans faces. I found that to be rather asinine, since a large proportion of the Blue Jays were made up of non-Canadian players (many of whom weren't even from the United States.) To me, that seems like an overt attempt at wanting to take away from American successes. If that's the sentiment that Canadians have in general, I think it's relatively hypocritical. As I said, the best way to preserve your successes is to make them something to be proud of for their own merits (which in fairness, many Canadians do), not use them as cultural capital to say "see Americans? We've done something worthwhile and you should be proud of it!" Obviously, I'm being kind of negative myself, but I'm trying to be fair. But I think that if that's what many Canadians see from America, then I think they're trying to project some kind of insecurity onto us. Why should you need us to validate your own identity and image? Why would you want us too? That's what I see. You want to distinguish yourselves from the United States, but you want us to validate it by acknowledging the differences ourselves. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that you're doing this yourself. I agree, there is some sensitivity and it's in how I view the relationship between Canada and the US...It reminds me of a kind of sibling rivalry and I identify with the position Canada is in, while the States (as of late) makes me think of my louder, extremely overbearing older sister. So yeah, as much as I try to remain objective, I do take some stuff personally. And YES I was born in the US but moved up here when I was 4.5 and never moved back. Given this election, I've been considering hitting the 'fuck it' button, and moving north. Trouble is, I only recently started a job, and can't really transfer just yet. Not sure if they even have offices in Canada. For my 2 cents on the topic, I think its a great thing for Canadians wanting to differentiate their country from the US. If you can create your own media, you might be able to export it to the US and make a bit of cash.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:20:52 GMT
As a Canadian, I would not want to build national pride based on misinformation, omission or other such deceits, nor would I want to build it around negation of another country, whether it's derogatory or not. I haven't visited that aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie, but if they're really being that misleading, it's a damn shame. The site Hawkeye linked earlier is indeed a great find and a good place to start if comparing culture is of interest to you. While it's hardly comprehensive, it points out things that are really rather obvious but are often forgotten. I knew some of this years ago but not having any reason to engage these topics since, they've slipped my mind. The truth is, Canada is kind of screwed in the "building a strong culture" department due to the extreme we take our multiculturalism to, or rather some of us do. The Aussie site calls it right: we put all the chips on multiculturalism to appease the Quebecers and to this day we're the only ones still buying into it. This is why there is no Canadian identity to speak of. French Canadians need to be French, everyone else needs to be what they are and Anglo Canadians have to accept and protect it all at the cost of building anything themselves. But sure, at least we're not America. How dare they have a cohesive identity and a media image half the world wants to emulate? The media thing is a symptom, not a cause. Yes, American style media is everywhere. But like Hawkeye said, I don't believe there's any intent behind it (apart from monetary profit, obviously), good or bad. It just is. IF it has a disproportionate effect on us, it's because we have nothing to counter it with. Canadian programing is still going to be "American-style" because it can't really be anything else, except maybe French. And, frankly fuck that. Multiculturalism means Quebecers get to be Quebecers, it doesn't mean the rest of us follow suit. So we're at a a deadlock. We need to make our own thing, but we're in such a disfavorable position, I can't see how. Given the trend of globalization it may be too late. Please be so kind as to enlighten me (and the question is also for The Hype Himself) which aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie are you both talking about? And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game?
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:23:54 GMT
Why should you need us to validate your own identity and image? Why would you want us too? That's what I see. You want to distinguish yourselves from the United States, but you want us to validate it by acknowledging the differences ourselves. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that you're doing this yourself. I agree, there is some sensitivity and it's in how I view the relationship between Canada and the US...It reminds me of a kind of sibling rivalry and I identify with the position Canada is in, while the States (as of late) makes me think of my louder, extremely overbearing older sister. So yeah, as much as I try to remain objective, I do take some stuff personally. And YES I was born in the US but moved up here when I was 4.5 and never moved back. You made the right choice, of course and thank you for that.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:25:27 GMT
Why should you need us to validate your own identity and image? .... That's what I see.... We don't. You see wrong.
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 20, 2016 13:27:55 GMT
Canada is adorable.
That is all.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 13:30:07 GMT
As a Canadian, I would not want to build national pride based on misinformation, omission or other such deceits, nor would I want to build it around negation of another country, whether it's derogatory or not. I haven't visited that aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie, but if they're really being that misleading, it's a damn shame. The site Hawkeye linked earlier is indeed a great find and a good place to start if comparing culture is of interest to you. While it's hardly comprehensive, it points out things that are really rather obvious but are often forgotten. I knew some of this years ago but not having any reason to engage these topics since, they've slipped my mind. The truth is, Canada is kind of screwed in the "building a strong culture" department due to the extreme we take our multiculturalism to, or rather some of us do. The Aussie site calls it right: we put all the chips on multiculturalism to appease the Quebecers and to this day we're the only ones still buying into it. This is why there is no Canadian identity to speak of. French Canadians need to be French, everyone else needs to be what they are and Anglo Canadians have to accept and protect it all at the cost of building anything themselves. But sure, at least we're not America. How dare they have a cohesive identity and a media image half the world wants to emulate? The media thing is a symptom, not a cause. Yes, American style media is everywhere. But like Hawkeye said, I don't believe there's any intent behind it (apart from monetary profit, obviously), good or bad. It just is. IF it has a disproportionate effect on us, it's because we have nothing to counter it with. Canadian programing is still going to be "American-style" because it can't really be anything else, except maybe French. And, frankly fuck that. Multiculturalism means Quebecers get to be Quebecers, it doesn't mean the rest of us follow suit. So we're at a a deadlock. We need to make our own thing, but we're in such a disfavorable position, I can't see how. Given the trend of globalization it may be too late. Please be so kind as to enlighten me (and the question is also for The Hype Himself ) which aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie are you both talking about? And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game? The one they set up for Roberta Bondar, right? I might have gotten my cities wrong. It's in Toronto, but for some reason I was thinking about Roberta Bondar because she's from Sault Ste. Marie, and they had a big thing going on for her while I was there. Yes, I have been to many Hockey Games.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 13:36:20 GMT
Why should you need us to validate your own identity and image? .... That's what I see.... We don't. You see wrong. Maybe not directly, but you (Canada as a whole) do have a vocal base of anti-Americanism which is grounded in how you define yourself in comparison to the United States, rather than for your own regard.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 13:37:56 GMT
Canada is adorable. That is all. They're a Western Country like any other. They're no better or worse than us, to be honest.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:39:05 GMT
Please be so kind as to enlighten me (and the question is also for The Hype Himself ) which aerospace museum in Sault Ste Marie are you both talking about? And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game? The one they set up for Roberta Bondar, right? I might have gotten my cities wrong. It's in Toronto, but for some reason I was thinking about Roberta Bondar because she's from Sault Ste. Marie, and they had a big thing going on for her while I was there. Yes, I have been to many Hockey Games. It is not a museum, it's a pavilion that was named after her. To sum it up: your whole bashing of Canadians as being smug and condescending is based on a museum that does not exist. The question about the hockey games was for my fellow Canadian CrutchCricket and it was meant as an answer to his claiming that we do not respect our national symbols. We do when it counts...
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 20, 2016 13:39:14 GMT
Canada is adorable. That is all. They're a Western Country like any other. They're no better or worse than us, to be honest. I would hug the entire country if that were possible. That isn't true of some of the other western countries. Edit: Strictly speaking, that isn't true. I would not hug the bits with wolverines (a truly psychotic animal) or with lots of black flies. But I would hug the rest.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:40:46 GMT
Maybe not directly, but you (Canada as a whole) do have a vocal base of anti-Americanism which is grounded in how you define yourself in comparison to the United States, rather than for your own regard. The fact that we are laughing at you you define as anti-Americanism? We laugh at everybody including the French, including ourselves.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 13:43:01 GMT
Canada is adorable. That is all. Yes, we are. And that is an unpopular opinion?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 13:47:54 GMT
The one they set up for Roberta Bondar, right? I might have gotten my cities wrong. It's in Toronto, but for some reason I was thinking about Roberta Bondar because she's from Sault Ste. Marie, and they had a big thing going on for her while I was there. Yes, I have been to many Hockey Games. It is not a museum, it's a pavilion that was named after her. To sum it up: your whole bashing of Canadians as being smug and condescending is based on a museum that does not exist. The question about the hockey games was for my fellow Canadian CrutchCricket and it was meant as an answer to his claiming that we do not respect our national symbols. We do when it counts... Bud, I'm not bashing anyone here, I'm just pointing out an inconsistency. Admittedly, I made a mistake by saying the museum was in Sault Ste. Marie when it's in Toronto. As I said, I thought Sault Ste. Marie since it was the most recent place in Canada I had been too, I know my astronaut history (and thus that Roberta Bondar is from Sault Ste. Marie), and that there was some kind of building there named after her there, along with some event or whatever (I didn't check it out), and I got my memory mixed up. They do have a museum up there, but I don't remember what it was, just that it was related to flying. But otherwise, the experience was the same.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 13:50:26 GMT
Maybe not directly, but you (Canada as a whole) do have a vocal base of anti-Americanism which is grounded in how you define yourself in comparison to the United States, rather than for your own regard. The fact that we are laughing at you you define as anti-Americanism? We laugh at everybody including the French, including ourselves. I didn't say anything about you laughing at us at all, man. I think you're starting to jump to conclusions on this.
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 14:00:47 GMT
The fact that we are laughing at you you define as anti-Americanism? We laugh at everybody including the French, including ourselves. I didn't say anything about you laughing at us at all, man. I think you're starting to jump to conclusions on this. We are not anti-Americans and never will be. We're too close both in history and geography. You said you served. Did you serve with Canadian soldiers? Did you find them anti-American?
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 14:05:32 GMT
They're a Western Country like any other. They're no better or worse than us, to be honest. I would hug the entire country if that were possible. That isn't true of some of the other western countries. Edit: Strictly speaking, that isn't true. I would not hug the bits with wolverines (a truly psychotic animal) or with lots of black flies. But I would hug the rest. And we'll hug you back, because that is who we are.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 20, 2016 14:11:00 GMT
And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game? Several. Why?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 14:11:45 GMT
I didn't say anything about you laughing at us at all, man. I think you're starting to jump to conclusions on this. We are not anti-Americans and never will be. We're too close both in history and geography. You said you served. Did you serve with Canadian soldiers? Did you find them anti-American? That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? So presumptuous that you categorically deny fault for Canada indefinitely. Given history and geography, I can think of a lot of legitimate criticisms towards America that one might construe as anti-American. This would of course lead to an eventual exaggeration, which might breed the illegitimate criticisms to which I'm referring. And beyond some joint operation training (essentially being at the same place at the same time), I didn't really work with Canadian soldiers, but I find an appeal to comradery among allied countries via joint training to be misrepresentative towards the personal opinions of many Canadians and the associated cultural cringe that does exist towards America (as it does in many countries.)
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 14:12:39 GMT
And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game? Several. Why? At the beginning of the game what happens? Even in Quebec city? Even in Montreal?
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 20, 2016 14:15:59 GMT
At the beginning of the game what happens? Even in Quebec city? Even in Montreal? When I lived in Montreal, everyone would stagger to their feet and sing (in two languages) O Canada. Then they would drink more beer. Some guys would try to sing both languages simultaneously. You could tell who they were by them saying at the end of the game, "What a great game, eh. Did we win?"
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 20, 2016 14:19:33 GMT
The fact that we are laughing at you you define as anti-Americanism? We laugh at everybody including the French, including ourselves. You might want to provide some examples of this one. And French as in France? Or French as in Quebec? Because from what I remember, we've been entirely too tippy-toe with the latter. At the beginning of the game what happens? Even in Quebec city? Even in Montreal? What, the national anthem? That happens at every sports game, in every country, ever. Did you see what I was framing the example against? A bar, a German bar no less, going full out German in the States suddenly breaks out in the Star Spangled Banner and for those moments, no one in there's German, they're American. Or rather, they were always American but they took a break that night to be German and still in the middle of that, they took a break to be American again. Ever hear of something similar happening up here? I have not.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 20, 2016 14:20:55 GMT
And one question to you: have you ever been to a hockey game? I have. Many of them. First one was in 1968. Here in North Carolina, I was at game 7 seeing Carolina hoist the Stanley Cup after defeating Edmonton Oilers. I'll try to get to a game this season
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 14:23:16 GMT
We are not anti-Americans and never will be. We're too close both in history and geography. You said you served. Did you serve with Canadian soldiers? Did you find them anti-American? That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? So presumptuous that you categorically deny fault for Canada indefinitely. Given history and geography, I can think of a lot of legitimate criticisms towards America that one might construe as anti-American. This would of course lead to an eventual exaggeration, which might breed the illegitimate criticisms to which I'm referring. And beyond some joint operation training (essentially being at the same place at the same time), I didn't really work with Canadian soldiers, but I find an appeal to comradery among allied countries via joint training to be misrepresentative towards the personal opinions of many Canadians and the associated cultural cringe that does exist towards America (as it does in many countries.) Is "one might construe" in your mind equivalent to "are"? And why "of course will this lead to an eventual exaggeration"? And about our soldiers my point was that when it really matters you can always count on us. I find that saying anything else belittles the men and women of our country that gave their lives fighting jointly in wars with your soldiers.
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