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Post by Frost on Aug 30, 2020 12:45:45 GMT
With respect to Solas, I think there’s a very sharp divide between killing one to save many, and killing one to potentially save many. I see the Solas kill option as a vengeance option rather than something needed to save lives. The redeem option suggests that killing him is likely not needed to stop his plan.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 30, 2020 13:37:59 GMT
That would be a good system... but I don't expect they'll do it that way. I think that either the Inquisitor will stick to their preferred solution all game, or Solas will wind up doing something so heinous during TDWR that even the Inquisitors who said "redeem" will give up hope and advise the new PC to just kill him. (Although I'm still not sure it would be mandatory, even then.) It wouldn't be the first time dialogue and/or quests are unlocked based on our choices from previous games, but yea, I don't think that's going to happen this time. One can dream though, right? Well, I think the dialogue will be different, in the second case: the way I picture the second case is that an Inquisitor who said they want to redeem Solas holds out hope that that's doable until some time towards the middle or end of the game, and makes no secret of that fact to the new PC... and then Solas does something horrible that causes the Inquisitor to visibly deflate, and they finally say that there's no hope of redeeming Solas. Is that something like what you meant?
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 30, 2020 13:44:12 GMT
With respect to Solas, I think there’s a very sharp divide between killing one to save many, and killing one to potentially save many. I see the Solas kill option as a vengeance option rather than something needed to save lives. The redeem option suggests that killing him is likely not needed to stop his plan. Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion? Might as well go after Hawke for setting him free in the first place. In both cases, the intent was to kill him, not make him more powerful.
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Post by Frost on Aug 30, 2020 14:05:35 GMT
I see the Solas kill option as a vengeance option rather than something needed to save lives. The redeem option suggests that killing him is likely not needed to stop his plan. Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion? Might as well go after Hawke for setting him free in the first place. In both cases, the intent was to kill him, not make him more powerful. I chose the redeem option. However, I see a number of people want to take him out.
Also, lol about Hawke. Good thing Hawke and Solas weren't a couple.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 30, 2020 14:38:03 GMT
Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion? Might as well go after Hawke for setting him free in the first place. In both cases, the intent was to kill him, not make him more powerful. I chose the redeem option. However, I see a number of people want to take him out.
Also, lol about Hawke. Good thing Hawke and Solas weren't a couple. Ahahahahaha that concept. They’d either completely cancel out each others’ bad luck, or else the first time they kissed both of Thedas’ moons would spontaneously fall out of the sky and crash into them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2020 14:50:52 GMT
Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion?
Some people may see it as vengeance, I just saw it as wanting to save the world. Don't get me wrong, if I can do it without killing him that would be great but you have to get your priorities right. How in the hell do you save him from himself (Inquisitor's words) when you have zippo information about how this might be accomplished and he failed to answer the most important question to my mind: "Why does this world have to die?" Then he seems to have adjusted his justification now to say his action will save this world. Make your mind up, Solas. Mind you either way he seemed to suggest that only elves are going to survive his plan at best. So human, dwarf and qunari might feel a bit like taking pre-emptive vengeance for thinking it okay to potentially wipe them out.
Also, he should really have done his homework on Corypheus before handing over such a dangerous and informative object to him. He knows effective immortality is a possibility in the world; how did he think this guy had survived so long?
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Post by Frost on Aug 30, 2020 15:06:04 GMT
Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion?
Some people may see it as vengeance, I just saw it as wanting to save the world. Don't get me wrong, if I can do it without killing him that would be great but you have to get your priorities right. How in the hell do you save him from himself (Inquisitor's words) when you have zippo information about how this might be accomplished and he failed to answer the most important question to my mind: "Why does this world have to die?" Then he seems to have adjusted his justification now to say his action will save this world. Make your mind up, Solas. Mind you either way he seemed to suggest that only elves are going to survive his plan at best. So human, dwarf and qunari might feel a bit like taking pre-emptive vengeance for thinking it okay to potentially wipe them out.
Also, he should really have done his homework on Corypheus before handing over such a dangerous and informative object to him. He knows effective immortality is a possibility in the world; how did he think this guy had survived so long? How were you planning on killing Solas? It is not like that plan is any easier or would automatically have a better success rate. If what he is trying to save the world from is the blight/red lyrium, it might become obvious to the pc that it is an issue next game.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 30, 2020 15:36:57 GMT
Revenge for... not knowing Corypheus could survive a point-blank explosion?
Some people may see it as vengeance, I just saw it as wanting to save the world. Don't get me wrong, if I can do it without killing him that would be great but you have to get your priorities right. How in the hell do you save him from himself (Inquisitor's words) when you have zippo information about how this might be accomplished and he failed to answer the most important question to my mind: "Why does this world have to die?" Then he seems to have adjusted his justification now to say his action will save this world. Make your mind up, Solas. Mind you either way he seemed to suggest that only elves are going to survive his plan at best. So human, dwarf and qunari might feel a bit like taking pre-emptive vengeance for thinking it okay to potentially wipe them out.
I guess I’m operating on the observation that the older I get, the more I sandbag my predictions. Or as Arthur C. Clarke put it: “If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong.” At his age, almost all of Solas’ errors are in the direction of assuming things are impossible. Hence his blindspot toward Corypheus surviving the orb. If he also thinks it’s impossible that modern Thedas would survive his plan, that seems like a pretty good indication that it will. To me, he reads as an old-ass lead engineer who reels off all the ways a project is doomed to failure, then proceeds to finish it months ahead of schedule. He’s sandbagging.
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Post by Solas on Aug 30, 2020 16:15:01 GMT
I'm conflicted myself (which is the thing I love about this character incidentally). My Inquisitor chooses Stop.
There's a suggestion that Stop is vengeful, both for some nonromanced Inquisitors (I guess the idea is that they're angry he lied and used them, gave Cory the orb, w/e etc) and some romanced Lavellans (I guess there it's that and/or revenge for breaking up or something). I'm sure this is the motivation for some Inquisitors and some players too, but I think generally speaking it's a mischaracterization. Inquisitors don't have all our meta knowledge, and I think that for a lot of Stop Inquisitors from a roleplay or character traits perspective they genuinely just came to believe that he has to be stopped in order to protect the world.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 30, 2020 17:05:52 GMT
How were you planning on killing Solas? It is not like that plan is any easier or would automatically have a better success rate. I can't answer that question, but I'm not sure that matters: I assume that defeating Solas is the end goal, and if my assumption is correct that means the devs have to give us some way of doing so. It's a video game, so we can't solve the puzzle unless there's a solution already coded into it, and that means the devs need to do all the thinking for us before the game comes out. I was hoping that could wait until DA6: I want the Mortalitasi to try and take over Thedas in DA5.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2020 17:17:57 GMT
If what he is trying to save the world from is the blight/red lyrium, it might become obvious to the pc that it is an issue next game.
That's my whole point. All he had to say is that the world is doomed from the blight/red lyrium and the only way to save it is his plan. Then you have something to work with; find an alternative plan to save the world and convince him it is better than his. It might seem a tough call but I admit it would probably have a better chance of success than going up against someone who can petrify you with a thought or kill you in your sleep. What was so infuriating was that you can actually ask him "Why?" and his response was basically "spoilers" but in character he said he might give you too much information so that you figure it out.
So I had questions but there were several I wasn't allowed to ask and the one important one that I did, he refused to answer. Actually one of the questions I wanted to ask was, what do you know about the origins of the Blight? Wanted to do that in the main game when he was getting all hot and bothered about the Grey Wardens but I definitely did by Trespasser.
I hope it does become obvious to the PC next game but it will be annoying if it is simply a case of then meeting up with Solas and having another of his controlled question and answer sessions. To be honest, my money is on the blight because it has been a threat from the very beginning and there have been a lot of rather ominous pictures among the concept art. Also, they have started showcasing a Grey Warden character. I must admit I would like the irony if the despised by Solas Grey Wardens actually are the ones who come up with a better solution than him.
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Post by Rascoth on Aug 30, 2020 17:19:02 GMT
It wouldn't be the first time dialogue and/or quests are unlocked based on our choices from previous games, but yea, I don't think that's going to happen this time. One can dream though, right? Well, I think the dialogue will be different, in the second case: the way I picture the second case is that an Inquisitor who said they want to redeem Solas holds out hope that that's doable until some time towards the middle or end of the game, and makes no secret of that fact to the new PC... and then Solas does something horrible that causes the Inquisitor to visibly deflate, and they finally say that there's no hope of redeeming Solas. Is that something like what you meant? Something like that I just hope Trespasser won't be our only indicator how we want to deal with him ( if given a choice). I don't think it can be, considering there are going to be new players around. I'm conflicted myself (which is the thing I love about this character incidentally). My Inquisitor chooses Stop. There's a suggestion that Stop is vengeful, both for some nonromanced Inquisitors (I guess the idea is that they're angry he lied and used them, gave Cory the orb, w/e etc) and some romanced Lavellans (I guess there it's that and/or revenge for breaking up or something). I'm sure this is the motivation for some Inquisitors and some players too, but I think generally speaking it's a mischaracterization. Inquisitors don't have all our meta knowledge, and I think that for a lot of Stop Inquisitors from a roleplay or character traits perspective they genuinely just came to believe that he has to be stopped in order to protect the world. I agree. I don't see stop/redeem as simple, dual choice. Inquisitor who tries to stop him might do that out of vengence, to save the world, to protect people dear to them... In fact the last one is why my romanced Lavellan might try to stop him no matter what. She already lost Clan Lavellan, no way she's letting him harm her second family (Inner Circle). On the other side not every Inquisitor that chose redeem might see it as trying to save their friend. It might be in most cases, but it also might be matter of actually proving him wrong, to show he's not all seeing, all knowing. It really depends on how you're playing your Inquisitor and how your meta knowledge influences the outcome. That being said, I'm aware that in the end this choice will be presented as simple dual choice, because taking all this interpretations into account when writing next game is pretty much impossible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2020 17:21:50 GMT
That being said, I'm aware that in the end this choice will be presented as simple dual choice, because taking all this interpretations into account when writing next game is pretty much impossible. The question now is how much is the Inquisitor and Inquisition going to be bastardized by the dual choice when presented in DA4.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 30, 2020 17:23:41 GMT
Well, I think the dialogue will be different, in the second case: the way I picture the second case is that an Inquisitor who said they want to redeem Solas holds out hope that that's doable until some time towards the middle or end of the game, and makes no secret of that fact to the new PC... and then Solas does something horrible that causes the Inquisitor to visibly deflate, and they finally say that there's no hope of redeeming Solas. Is that something like what you meant? Something like that I just hope Trespasser won't be our only indicator how we want to deal with him ( if given a choice). I don't think it can be, considering there are going to be new players around. Given Bioware's past behavior with previous PCs, I think it's going to be the only indicator of how Inky wants to deal with him. But I don't think that'll control how the new PC feels: we'll be free to decide that in TDWR. (Although I don't know if we'll be free to actually follow through on what either PC wants: it's entirely possible, maybe even more likely than not, that this ends with Solas dead no matter what anyone wants.)
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 30, 2020 17:38:02 GMT
What was so infuriating was that you can actually ask him "Why?" and his response was basically "spoilers" but in character he said he might give you too much information so that you figure it out. One cool (but probably too narratively complicated) direction they could take that is by making it about cultivating specific spirits. Controlling the flow of information isn’t just denying info to opponents in the waking world, it’s also controlling the strength and type of spirits that grow in the intervening years. I suppose a simpler version of that strategy is that he intends to use the shadow Inquisition as part of his plan.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 30, 2020 18:15:19 GMT
What was so infuriating was that you can actually ask him "Why?" and his response was basically "spoilers" but in character he said he might give you too much information so that you figure it out. I never had any problem with Solas refusing the Inquisitor information for fear of giving them too much, because even if there was a meta reason for it I'd always thought it was a reasonable and in-character thing for him to fear. And we learn things in Tevinter Nights that seem to back me up on that. His plan to get around the fact that he doesn't have the Anchor seems to require the lyrium idol taken from Meredith's body, and he didn't have it yet. So if he'd told the Inquisitor that he needed it, or even given them enough information to figure it out, that could have made his life appreciably harder.
And it appears he also needs an actual piece of the Black City, and didn't have that yet either.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2020 18:18:44 GMT
If what he is trying to save the world from is the blight/red lyrium, it might become obvious to the pc that it is an issue next game.
That's my whole point. All he had to say is that the world is doomed from the blight/red lyrium and the only way to save it is his plan. Then you have something to work with; find an alternative plan to save the world and convince him it is better than his. It might seem a tough call but I admit it would probably have a better chance of success than going up against someone who can petrify you with a thought or kill you in your sleep. What was so infuriating was that you can actually ask him "Why?" and his response was basically "spoilers" but in character he said he might give you too much information so that you figure it out.
So I had questions but there were several I wasn't allowed to ask and the one important one that I did, he refused to answer. Actually one of the questions I wanted to ask was, what do you know about the origins of the Blight? Wanted to do that in the main game when he was getting all hot and bothered about the Grey Wardens but I definitely did by Trespasser.
I hope it does become obvious to the PC next game but it will be annoying if it is simply a case of then meeting up with Solas and having another of his controlled question and answer sessions. To be honest, my money is on the blight because it has been a threat from the very beginning and there have been a lot of rather ominous pictures among the concept art. Also, they have started showcasing a Grey Warden character. I must admit I would like the irony if the despised by Solas Grey Wardens actually are the ones who come up with a better solution than him. I hated that conversation with him. Like you said, we couldn't really ask any questions and there were no options to dispute his arguments. We were just made incompetent so the devs can make us marvel at "Oh, look how wise Solas is."
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 31, 2020 0:54:45 GMT
How were you planning on killing Solas? It is not like that plan is any easier or would automatically have a better success rate. I can't answer that question, but I'm not sure that matters: I assume that defeating Solas is the end goal, and if my assumption is correct that means the devs have to give us some way of doing so. It's a video game, so we can't solve the puzzle unless there's a solution already coded into it, and that means the devs need to do all the thinking for us before the game comes out.I was hoping that could wait until DA6: I want the Mortalitasi to try and take over Thedas in DA5. Food for though? If you redeem him or kill him doesn't one of the two stop him?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 31, 2020 3:46:09 GMT
I can't answer that question, but I'm not sure that matters: I assume that defeating Solas is the end goal, and if my assumption is correct that means the devs have to give us some way of doing so. It's a video game, so we can't solve the puzzle unless there's a solution already coded into it, and that means the devs need to do all the thinking for us before the game comes out.I was hoping that could wait until DA6: I want the Mortalitasi to try and take over Thedas in DA5. Food for though? If you redeem him or kill him doesn't one of the two stop him? If you do both, one of them definitely stops him. I'm not saying I wouldn't go with redeeming him, if it was an option. I'm just saying the fact that I can't think how to kill him doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 31, 2020 4:21:00 GMT
I'm just saying the fact that I can't think how to kill him doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done. Hm. This might be overthinking it, but I wonder if this is why he told the Inquisitor all that info, even if he hates them. The agents of Fen’Harel probably also have spies among them. People loyal to the evanuris. If Solas were to seriously research how to deal with the other gods, or start making moves to do so, they might be alerted. But the fact that he doesn’t yet know how to deal with them doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be done.And what if there’s a separate organization? One focused on taking out only one god. A god that all the others would rather see gone. The evanuris might not bother to infiltrate that organization. Besides, Solas has made the shadow Inquisition hyper-paranoid of infiltration. They might be able to ask the question “how do you stop a god?” without raising any alarm bells among the evanuris. The shadow Inquisition is a slow arrow, and right now he’s the one standing underneath it. But if he just scoots a liiiiittle bit to the left, maybe... it’ll hit something else.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 31, 2020 4:33:32 GMT
I'm just saying the fact that I can't think how to kill him doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done. Hm. This might be overthinking it, but I wonder if this is why he told the Inquisitor all that info, even if he hates them. The agents of Fen’Harel probably also have spies among them. People loyal to the evanuris. If Solas were to seriously research how to deal with the other gods, or start making moves to do so, they might be alerted. But the fact that he doesn’t yet know how to deal with them doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be done.And what if there’s a separate organization? One focused on taking out only one god. A god that all the others would rather see gone. The evanuris might not bother to infiltrate that organization. Besides, Solas has made the shadow Inquisition hyper-paranoid of infiltration. They might be able to ask the question “how do you stop a god?” without raising any alarm bells among the evanuris. The shadow Inquisition is a slow arrow, and right now he’s the one standing underneath it. But if he just scoots a liiiiittle bit to the left, maybe... it’ll hit something else. If that were the case, it would probably be the first time a Dragon Age character we were supposed to think of as a genius lived up to the hype.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 31, 2020 6:44:44 GMT
Arvaarad for lead writer pls.
I *want* magic to return to Thedas, but I do not remotely understand the appeal of Solas as a character. Everything that comes out of his mouth is total Incel/Boomer rhetoric, draped in a thin veneer of fantasy language. Even when you have high approval with him, the highest compliment he can manage is "you aren't like other girls". And his "all my friends are dead" shtick loses much of its alluring gloss upon learning that he deliberately created that situation himself.
Plus, he's not even hot.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 31, 2020 7:16:08 GMT
Solas does say in TN that his trespasser spiel was a 'moment of weakness' so I think it was more a case of him thinking himself unstoppable at that point and simply giving the Inquisitor answers either out of contempt or guilt. Remember Feynriel in DA2? I think Solas may be a dreamer abomination and like Marethari said, 'near unstoppable' because he's basically a greater pride demon that took mortal form ( he did not want a body but she asked him to come). The propaganda with the evanuris standing around him preventing him from attacking says to me he was more powerful than even a few of them combined. Maybe Mythal summoned him to fight for them in one of their wars, but his spirit was denied its original purpose in the process. Maybe her involvement in Solas' path forms a part of Flemthyal's own 'regret'. Straight out slaying Solas might also be a bad idea...he says in his personal quest 'if the idea giving the spirit form is strong or if the memory has shaped other spirits, it may some day rise again'. Seeing as just about everyone in the world knows him as the dread wolf and he uses the fear of this image to his advantage, if someone does in fact kill him wouldn't his spirit likely rise again as one that is purely malevolent formed from his dread wolf image? The worst part is he probably would also have no recollection of past events either. There is the possibility he made a few strong connections with at least a few of the party members while in the Inquisition (eg. Cass, Bull). In the end these relationships could be used to sway him from his 'dark side' so to speak and if he does die, make sure he doesn't end up rising again as strictly evil. Fen'harel is often depicted in terms of lightness and darkness in DAI eg. his shrine in Ghilan'nain's grove with the white and black wolf, Fenrir constellation describes him as a white wolf, and Whiteshadow in the graves describes him as a protector and not a monster. If Cole is kept a spirit he also goes back to the Fade to help Solas 'remember who he was'. IMO stopping Solas shouldn't simply amount to killing him, but attempting to stop him succumbing to 'his dark side'.
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gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2020 13:47:34 GMT
Even when you have high approval with him, the highest compliment he can manage is "you aren't like other girls". Yes, that compliment that is really a thinly veiled insult. You seem special, could it be because of that (my) anchor? No? How did you turn out so well when raised by the Dalish (or insert other race here)? Could I have misjudged them? You don't seem like an almost tranquil non-person (okay so he didn't say that bit but I'm sure he thought it)
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,795
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2020 13:53:20 GMT
Straight out slaying Solas might also be a bad idea...he says in his personal quest 'if the idea giving the spirit form is strong or if the memory has shaped other spirits, it may some day rise again'. Seeing as just about everyone in the world knows him as the dread wolf and he uses the fear of this image to his advantage, if someone does in fact kill him wouldn't his spirit likely rise again as one that is purely malevolent formed from his dread wolf image? The worst part is he probably would also have no recollection of past events either.
This thought had occurred to me too. Right now his memory of the people he liked in the Inquisition is probably the only thing keeping the Dread Wolf persona from overwhelming his psyche but if he was killed, the collective memory everybody had of him as the Dread Wolf would almost guarantee that was the spirit that would come back. After all, how did Mythal survive and not simply lose her identity? The fact that every elf at the time still remembered her, her priesthood remembered her and later the Dalish remembered her. No wonder she feels better disposed towards the Dalish than Solas does.
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