Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 20, 2017 15:43:50 GMT
I actually think the Dalish having a cap on the number of mages in a clan for safety reasons makes sense, but not the strict 3 mage rule presented in Inquisition. I headcanon that the number is closer to ten and excess mages are traded to other clans, not abandoned in the woods. I headcanon that Minaeve's clan was unusual in only allowing three (Perhaps because the clan itself was unusually small) and unusually cruel in simply abandoning her in the woods.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 15:59:35 GMT
For me, I can't accept that every Grey Warden in Orlais was so stupid and/or cowardly as to believe that blood sacrifice to raise a demon army was a good idea. I like to headcanon that it was only about 1 out of 10 that ended up at Adamant, and then even some of them came to their senses. The Adamant stuff was very weird imo also, and it would definitely a place to use headcanon magic, imo as well.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2017 16:05:44 GMT
I actually think the Dalish having a cap on the number of mages in a clan for safety reasons makes sense, but not the strict 3 mage rule presented in Inquisition. I headcanon that the number is closer to ten and excess mages are traded to other clans, not abandoned in the woods. I headcanon that Minaeve's clan was unusual in only allowing three (Perhaps because the clan itself was unusually small) and unusually cruel in simply abandoning her in the woods. I think this is unusually idiot... they wanted to risk, that the girl become abomination, and destroy the whole clan? Mineava's story is just a simple illogical bullshit for demonstrate, that the dalish solution much more cruel, than the Circle. I think they thought that they went too far by showing the cruelty of the Circle in DA:O and DAII. (The dalish solution was: kill the mage, if s/he become dangerous. This is pretty logical and acceptable solution.)
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Post by javeart on Jan 20, 2017 16:43:14 GMT
I have to say that I never considered my skepticism about Minaeve story as headcanon, is it? I mean she was just a kid back then, she spent most of her life in the circle and now seems at least slightly resentful, hardly the most reliable source of information about the dalish. And even if she is not making things up, or missremembering or missunderstading something, she's just talking about one clan. I mean, for me headcanon would be saying that she was definitely lying, being skeptical is just a RP option, IMO the most reasonable. I always imagine my Inquisitor thinking "really?" while politely saying "mi clan did things differently". The only headcanon involved for me (a minor one) is why my Inquisitor didn't ask for more details of this shocking story
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Post by vit246 on Jan 20, 2017 18:23:51 GMT
1) The Inquisitor appearing at the ruined Conclave, being dragged all the way to the Haven Chantry, and then 5 minutes later having to trek all the way back.
2) Cullen's questionable past being completely ignored. His brutality in both Circle endings of DAO. His being the second-in-command of Meredith for years. And him still thinking Meredith's policies kept people safe and mages aren't people. And then the game basically tells me I need to feel bad for this pretty boy becuz of his "experiences" in DAO and DA2. And his romance bing all about "me me me!" becuz he can't see any bad-mage-thing in the Inquisitor and the Inquistor bemoans how can Cullen be with something like her? A mage?
3) Cassandra not being the military commander of the Inquisition.
4) The Dalish 3-mage rule. Enough said. You have no option to counter it. Every relevant NPC talks about it as total fact and dismisses your input.
5) The location and design of Skyhold. It sits in a crater high on a mountain. The only way in and out is a single thin bridge. This is an absolute logistical nightmare for an army.
6) The Grey Wardens panicking with the fake Calling. This is a thousand-year-old organization of grizzled veterans and they behave like stupid children especially quivering before the Inquisition. And then accepting either of the orders of a young uppity organization called the Inquisition.
7) The spy networks of Celene, Gaspard, and Briala failing to notice the Tevinters snooping around.
8) Morrigan, an unknown apostate, previously a person who had trouble with the concept of a handshake, became an expert player of Orlesian politics and intrigue and became an trsuted adviser of the Empress.
9) Apparently all the Creators were evil assholes with no redeeming values except for Mythal and Solas very conveniently.
10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor.
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Post by vit246 on Jan 20, 2017 18:30:49 GMT
I actually think the Dalish having a cap on the number of mages in a clan for safety reasons makes sense, but not the strict 3 mage rule presented in Inquisition. I headcanon that the number is closer to ten and excess mages are traded to other clans, not abandoned in the woods. I headcanon that Minaeve's clan was unusual in only allowing three (Perhaps because the clan itself was unusually small) and unusually cruel in simply abandoning her in the woods. Its unusually stupid when you think about it. They fear that a 4th mage will instantly attract templars or demons, and their solution is to cast her into the wild and hope she finds a village or circle. First of all, There's no real reason to not keep her and train her. Second, the point of the Dalish is to avoid human institutions and settlements. And third, casting her into the wild is a guarantee to create an abomination or a maleficar due to fear, anger and resentment at her situation.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 20, 2017 18:42:45 GMT
8) Morrigan, an unknown apostate, previously a person who had trouble with the concept of a handshake, became an expert player of Orlesian politics and intrigue and became an trsuted adviser of the Empress. Oh this reminds me, I also have a theory that Morrigan is only tolerated by Celene because of her knowledge on eluvians--critical plot devices in the story of the Masked Empire. If the letter in the winter palace is to be believed, Gaspard himself is very interested in wrestling the eluvians away from Briala and its not too outlandish to think that Celene thinks the same. Or perhaps it is true what they say and Celene really does have massive fascination with the occult and mysticism, something that Morrigan knows a whole lot of in comparison to regimented knowledge of most Circle mages. In which case, Morrigan's value is mostly in her exotic nature/lore as opposed to her political acumen.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2017 19:00:48 GMT
I actually think the Dalish having a cap on the number of mages in a clan for safety reasons makes sense, but not the strict 3 mage rule presented in Inquisition. I headcanon that the number is closer to ten and excess mages are traded to other clans, not abandoned in the woods. I headcanon that Minaeve's clan was unusual in only allowing three (Perhaps because the clan itself was unusually small) and unusually cruel in simply abandoning her in the woods. Its unusually stupid when you think about it. They fear that a 4th mage will instantly attract templars or demons, and their solution is to cast her into the wild and hope she finds a village or circle. First of all, There's no real reason to not keep her and train her. Second, the point of the Dalish is to avoid human institutions and settlements. And third, casting her into the wild is a guarantee to create an abomination or a maleficar due to fear, anger and resentment at her situation. Don't search for logic behind the Minaeve's story... According the story Minaeve's clan was incredible idiot: who wants to drop a child, who possible the most talented mage in the clan (yes, we know, that Minaeve isn't a great mage, but when her clan abandoned her in the wild, he was only a child)? Wasted talent. We know, from Origins, that the mages are honored among the dalish, and if there are many mages in one place, the clan probably would send him/her to another clan, in which there are few.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 19:17:42 GMT
That Morrigan is important in any way, shape or form. I thought it was Leliana you wanted to wish out of existence?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 20, 2017 19:21:53 GMT
The amount of lore and elven artefacts you can find in the Dales and yet Lavellan knows nothing about it and apparently the Dalish missed them during the 250 years they were occupying the Dales. In particular, who in the hell put that big statue of Fen'Harel on the top of the mountain? There is no way that the Dalish would have done so as he was not their favourite god and a statue of that size would be something that would only become a priority when you had been in the area far longer. Who painted all those elven pictures and how come they lasted for so long when many of them are out in the open where they should have weathered? Again, it could not be the Dalish since they seem to depict things that are not found in the lore. Yet if they were there in the time of the Dales, would there not be something about them in Dalish lore?
Then there are the specific Dalish artefacts, like the amulet of the last Emerald Knight and the history of Red Crossing. There have been Dalish clans knocking around the Dales it would seem ever since they were conquered, so why did they only start exploring these ruins right before the Inquisitor appears on the scene? Why were the Dalish ignorant of the circumstances of Red Crossing? Someone had to have placed the testimony in the tomb.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 19:22:58 GMT
10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor. Ah yes, that reminds me of another one of mine. At the end of Trespasser, while not explicit, implies that all the servant and Inquisition elves went off to join Solas. That makes no sense. All, or even most, of any group of people can't agree on anything, why would they agree to go join him? I mean, what kind of lies would they have to swallow, since he thinks they are all degenerate and retarded in the first place? It's just too much. I headcanon that epilogue card to say "some" of the servant and Inquisition elves disappear, but a whole lot are left wondering what you're on about and do you want your chamber pot emptied or not?
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Post by lordofwar on Jan 20, 2017 19:24:47 GMT
9) Apparently all the Creators were evil assholes with no redeeming values except for Mythal and Solas very conveniently. To be fair, our only real sources on this are Solas and Mythal themselves. The elves in the Fade library seemed to be perfectly fine until the Veil went down.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 20, 2017 19:26:17 GMT
Would also point out that if Minaeve's story had been in isolation, it would have been possible to dismiss it as an exception to the rule. Then we have Vivienne quoting it at us as being the "sensible" solution of the Dalish to not having Templars and then to rub salt in the wound, we have Bull telling us this is the reason Dalish was told to take a hike by her Keeper. In his case you are not given the opportunity to refute this. With the other examples you are only allowed to say that your clan doesn't do this, not that the majority of clans do not do this, almost making it appear that your clan is the exception and the clans of Minaeve and Dalish are the norm
Having any cap on mages for safety reasons does not make sense if you have a culture that is not afraid of mages. There is no suggestion that they put a cap on mages among the Avvar, in rural Rivain or in Tevinter. None of these places have Templars (Tevinter doesn't have real Templars just ordinary soldiers called Templars). Among both the Avvar and in Rivain it is common practice for mages to become deliberately possessed by benign spirits without apparently any ill consequences. If a Dalish clan ever had as many as ten mages, they would be thrilled (in DAO or DA2) as it would be an indication that they were returning to what they once were en mass. With such a large number of mages, they would be of different ages and abilities and the senior ones could teach the juniors, thus taking the pressure off the Keeper. The reality is that magic is dying out among the clans, so every mage is precious.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 20, 2017 19:31:21 GMT
All the people resurrected and/or protected by the plot armor to carry forward the story are things that i cannot stand.
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Post by illyria on Jan 20, 2017 19:34:21 GMT
1) The Inquisitor appearing at the ruined Conclave, being dragged all the way to the Haven Chantry, and then 5 minutes later having to trek all the way back. 2) Cullen's questionable past being completely ignored. His brutality in both Circle endings of DAO. His being the second-in-command of Meredith for years. And him still thinking Meredith's policies kept people safe and mages aren't people. And then the game basically tells me I need to feel bad for this pretty boy becuz of his "experiences" in DAO and DA2. And his romance bing all about "me me me!" becuz he can't see any bad-mage-thing in the Inquisitor and the Inquistor bemoans how can Cullen be with something like her? A mage?
[...] 10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor. 1) The two events take place several days apart (you can find the herbalist's notes from when he was treating her post-Conclave!Boom. They're clearly not refering to when she was out cold from sealing the rift with the Pride demon because they reference Cassandra wanting to excute her). 2) Not going to defend the writing for Cullen, because I hate the way it brushes over his DA2 acts, but the DAO endings were clearly retconned with his apperence in DA2. Hell, I'd even say they were retconned with Witch Hunt, since that has mages saying he's been sent to another circle. 10) To be fair, that's the set up for the next game rather than a lore issue. My ones: Fiona being killed if the Templars were sided with. Much better to have Alexius as the boss (giving some good RP opportunities with Dorian at Skyhold). I'd much rather have her surivial ambigous, like Barris' is. The Dalish 'three mages per clan' rule which goes against the established lore. Lanaya talked about having to prove herself against other mages of the clan for position of first, and Merrill has a line about 'magic being a gift of the creators' and makes it clear how much the Dalish value their mages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 20, 2017 19:41:39 GMT
I agree about the unkillable people. You'd like to think that just once if you kill someone they'd stay dead. We don't have a resurrection spell in Thedas and the Circle Enchanters have always maintained this is something that magic can't do, although they do admit the only way to keep someone alive who should be dead is through spirit possession but that it is extremely rare. Yet we have numerous examples now of people who have survived death by one means or another, several occurring in the last 10 years of history, so apparently it is not so rare after all.
It has still to be explained how Corypheus can jump to a Grey Warden with a soul and yet the transfer is successful when we were previously told this was the method of destroying arch demon who regenerated by soul jumping to the nearest soulless vessel. If he was able to do this because of his link to his dragon, then apparently he had already done this before the Grey Wardens imprisoned him, because the first time we encountered him soul jumping was when Hawke "killed" him. So apparently he knew the secret of effectively immortality either before he invaded the Black city or acquired it after returning to earth. I'm still have a problem explaining that one away.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 20, 2017 19:45:04 GMT
10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor. Ah yes, that reminds me of another one of mine. At the end of Trespasser, while not explicit, implies that all the servant and Inquisition elves went off to join Solas. That makes no sense. All, or even most, of any group of people can't agree on anything, why would they agree to go join him? I mean, what kind of lies would they have to swallow, since he thinks they are all degenerate and retarded in the first place? It's just too much. I headcanon that epilogue card to say "some" of the servant and Inquisition elves disappear, but a whole lot are left wondering what you're on about and do you want your chamber pot emptied or not? Yeah, wouldn't Andrastian elves head to the Dales if Briala was made Marquise? Wouldn't the Dalish head to or near Wycome if Clan Lavellan has political power? Or why not go near Skyhold if the protagonist is elven? That Epilogue seems to ignore the ramifications of empowering Andrastian elves and how unlikely it is that most Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given their cautionary tales about him.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 19:55:59 GMT
Ah yes, that reminds me of another one of mine. At the end of Trespasser, while not explicit, implies that all the servant and Inquisition elves went off to join Solas. That makes no sense. All, or even most, of any group of people can't agree on anything, why would they agree to go join him? I mean, what kind of lies would they have to swallow, since he thinks they are all degenerate and retarded in the first place? It's just too much. I headcanon that epilogue card to say "some" of the servant and Inquisition elves disappear, but a whole lot are left wondering what you're on about and do you want your chamber pot emptied or not? Yeah, wouldn't Andrastian elves head to the Dales if Briala was made Marquise? Wouldn't the Dalish head to or near Wycome if Clan Lavellan has political power? Or why not go near Skyhold if the protagonist is elven? That Epilogue seems to ignore the ramifications of empowering Andrastian elves and how unlikely it is that most Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given their cautionary tales about him. Well, to be fair, the card doesn't say anything about the Dalish, only Inquisition and servant elves. I guess Solas just considers them too retarded to even use as cannon fodder.
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Post by melbella on Jan 20, 2017 20:35:09 GMT
That Morrigan is important in any way, shape or form. I thought it was Leliana you wanted to wish out of existence? Leliana is crazy and a terrible spymaster, but she never presents herself as knowing more than everyone else about things it is obvious other people know (or should know) better than her.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 20, 2017 22:12:29 GMT
Yeah, wouldn't Andrastian elves head to the Dales if Briala was made Marquise? Wouldn't the Dalish head to or near Wycome if Clan Lavellan has political power? Or why not go near Skyhold if the protagonist is elven? That Epilogue seems to ignore the ramifications of empowering Andrastian elves and how unlikely it is that most Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given their cautionary tales about him. Well, to be fair, the card doesn't say anything about the Dalish, only Inquisition and servant elves. I guess Solas just considers them too retarded to even use as cannon fodder. And yet the epilogue slide prominently shows at least one of the Dalish going with the other elves. But personally I don't think its too far fetched to see the elves leave, depending on the story Fen'Harel used. He could be trying to usurp Briala in being a "champion for the people" in order to bolster his forces and performing great feats to attract them to his cause (and we know he already had to override Briala's eluvian network). Some people even theorize that Briala is actually in league with him. Whether he accomplished this through deception or not is up for debate. As is whether Solas intends to exclude all modern elves from his restoration of the elven world. Honestly it could go either way with how little we know of his plans (aside from "world burning in the raw chaos" and "this world must die").Or it could be dependent based on his relation with the Inquisitor.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 20, 2017 22:25:23 GMT
10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor. Ah yes, that reminds me of another one of mine. At the end of Trespasser, while not explicit, implies that all the servant and Inquisition elves went off to join Solas. That makes no sense. All, or even most, of any group of people can't agree on anything, why would they agree to go join him? I mean, what kind of lies would they have to swallow, since he thinks they are all degenerate and retarded in the first place? It's just too much. I headcanon that epilogue card to say "some" of the servant and Inquisition elves disappear, but a whole lot are left wondering what you're on about and do you want your chamber pot emptied or not? I never really agreed with that interpretation. I took the "elves across Thedas" bit as being geographic. As in, elves in various places across Thedas went to his side, not that anywhere near all elves did so.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2017 22:41:15 GMT
It is rare that I find something that so completely sums up why I am uncomfortable with the Dalish and Dalish fans. That whole attitude is basically saying "Being Dalish or an elf can't mean something different to different people. If you think differently there is something wrong with you, and I am the one who can decide what is right for everyone." Ethnocentrism is gross and wrong no matter where it is coming from. We have Zathrian's clan rescue a wounded Anenrin who was on the verge of death because templars attacked him as a child when he ran from the Circle. Zathrian rescued Lanaya from bandits, and the clan offered to take her back home. Alarith's life was saved by Dalish when bandits murdered his parents and his brother and almost got to him; they also left his belongings alone. Merrill says that the plight of Andrastian elves matters and chastises Fenris (a Tevinter elf) when it seems like he doesn't care about them, and says to him they are "our people". You seem to generalize and denigrate the Dalish as if they all hold negative views on Andrastian elves, even though there are a number of examples that disprove this. I think you missed the second part of spiritofsolace's point; that it was less about supposed Dalish antipathy towards City Elves, and more how Dalish fans keep idealizing a completely unified culture that doesn't actually exist in the lore. We've all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, complex fantasy with deeply flawed characters and no easy answers. Yet, every single time the writers try to portray the Dalish as three dimensional as everyone else, it's an "attack". Sure, humans can be good, evil, weird, ordinary, and everything in between. But ELVES must be superior, inherently more moral and spiritual, otherwise why bother using them? Even when the deconstruction of the Tolkien model was the whole point . Don't agree? Prove me wrong; if you are a diehard Elf fan, tell me all the times you think criticism of them was actually justified. Times that you can accept the Dalish acting like believably flawed people, and not ideals.
The 3 Mage rule was a stupid retcon, but I suspect it had more to do with Mages in general rather than the Dalish. Not surprisingly, Mages are another group that most DA fans prefer to whitewash.
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Post by javeart on Jan 20, 2017 22:59:56 GMT
So, I didn't remember those other references to the 3 mages rule that gervaise21 mentioned, and I managed to found the dialogue from Vivienne, which now I know I never get because I always go with "that's just chantry rethoric" ... And, wtf? I mean, it was already and odd decision to put such a polemic affirmation in the lips of a girl who was just a little child when she left the clan, but putting it too in the lips of the person that just because you're dalish assumed you were self taught, as in "I know nothing about how dalish train their mages", really takes the cake I refuse to believe that they decided to introduce this through characters so poorly qualified to know antyhing about them so, fan theory, not headcanon, because it is perfectly possible : either was Minaeve who told Vivienne that, or that is anti-dalish propaganda from the circles and Minaeve didn't actually remember a thing about how she got lost in the woods and just internalized that she was abandoned What I can't seem to find is what IB says about it? Anyone could help me with that?
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Post by Syv on Jan 20, 2017 23:06:07 GMT
- The fact that Morrigan was in orlais, at the court working for Celene for many years ? ... What ? ... Why ?
- The fact that Vivienne as Divine decides to let mages from inquisition to create an independent college of enchanter opposed to her own circle with templars. WTF ? Are you serious ? No way Vivienne would have allowed that, it's dumb as fuck. Especially that she has fighted against that kind of idea all her life !
Everything is done, so that all the endings are similar, even if it doesn't make much sense. That's kinda infortunate.
- Also the fact that Vivienne refuses to be with the inquisitor because she would have no benefits to be with him. Looool. He is just one of te most powerful guys of the south of Thedas. Are you kidding me ? Where don't you see the benefits exactly ? Especially that I'm the one who could make you a divine if I want to ?
- The fact that Vivienne was absolutely useless in Orlais. I headcanon she had a major role over there. ( the writting about Vivienne was good but terribly lacking to be honest. )
- The fact that Vivienne played zero political role while she was supposed to be awesome in this area...
- The fact that Vivienne is supposed to lead loyalist mages, but nowhere you see them, never that part is revealed...
- Cassandra not leading Inquisition. Doesn't make much sense but I guess Bioware feared that many players would be offended that we wouldn't be the real leader.
- Can't stand the fact that Hawk if he is viscount decided to leave Kirkwall and everything for no good reasons after only one month. My Hawk would have never left Kirkwall, he was proud of bing the viscount and had great ambitions for his city.
The same for my warden. I hate the fact, that as prince-consort, he had necessarily to disappear after a while even if he decided to remain with Anora to lead Ferelden together. I really dislike this habit that Bioware has about breaking political ambitions and fate of our characters. Let them live !
- I would really hate the fact that the inquisition would be over after only two-three years of existence after the terrible events in DA:I... Really ?
- The ending of Leliana as divine doesn't fit the dragon age franchise to me. Seriously ? Free all mages into the society and you have a golden age, where they are all integrated and the people stopped to fear them forever ? It was that easier ? That was the answer ? I can't help but read the lore in DAO ( or even events in DAII ), absolutely thinking that it is absolutely not realistic ( let alone real life... ) This isn't skyrim. There are truly a few things about mages that should totally condemn that kind of easy answer.
I'm all for different solutions in a rpg, but it's also important for me to not fall in borderline options just for the sake ot giving different solutions.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 20, 2017 23:18:20 GMT
It is rare that I find something that so completely sums up why I am uncomfortable with the Dalish and Dalish fans. That whole attitude is basically saying "Being Dalish or an elf can't mean something different to different people. If you think differently there is something wrong with you, and I am the one who can decide what is right for everyone." Ethnocentrism is gross and wrong no matter where it is coming from. We have Zathrian's clan rescue a wounded Anenrin who was on the verge of death because templars attacked him as a child when he ran from the Circle. Zathrian rescued Lanaya from bandits, and the clan offered to take her back home. Alarith's life was saved by Dalish when bandits murdered his parents and his brother and almost got to him; they also left his belongings alone. Merrill says that the plight of Andrastian elves matters and chastises Fenris (a Tevinter elf) when it seems like he doesn't care about them, and says to him they are "our people". You seem to generalize and denigrate the Dalish as if they all hold negative views on Andrastian elves, even though there are a number of examples that disprove this. How did spiritofsolace's post amount to that? It seemed like spiritofsolace was against generalising the Dalish as acting exactly the same. This is especially given the objection to this line of thinking: "Being Dalish or an elf can't mean something different to different people."
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