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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2017 23:26:47 GMT
The problems with "kill the mage if they get out of hand" being the only rule is that:
1. There might not be anyone left to kill the mage.
2. Even without Demons and Blood Magic, and evil and/or incompetent mage could still potentially lead their Clan to ruin. Hell, they technically don't even need to use magic itself. The Dalish's entire religion gives Mages Rule by Divine Right, whether they are up to the job or not*. Even if a skilled hunter is a better leader, they will initially be passed over because they lack "The Creator's Blessing"**. But hey, who cares about normal people, right? They're not special .
*In Origins I roleplayed my Dalish Warden this way. Despite excelling his Keeper training as a child, Jerrick's dreams were squashed upon discovering he lacked magic. Though he was still pro-Dalish, Maheriel silently stung that his skills weren't enough to them.
** If I were on the DA writing team, I would make this a quest: you find a Dalish Clan divided between two different leaders, a skilled and charismatic Hunter or an inexperienced First. The Hunter has no problem with magic, but says the First doesn't have what it takes to lead. The First claims that denying them leadership is blasphemous and human appeasement. Support the First, they keep Dalish traditions but make costly blunders. Support the Hunter, the Clan adapts but is shunned by other Dalish.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2017 23:32:34 GMT
I, on the other hand, consider all this Fridge Brilliance; Vivienne talks a good game, but doesn't necessarily have the clout to back it up .
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2017 23:54:21 GMT
The problems with "kill the mage if they get out of hand" being the only rule is that: 1. There might not be anyone left to kill the mage.
2. Even without Demons and Blood Magic, and evil and/or incompetent mage could still potentially lead their Clan to ruin. Hell, they technically don't even need to use magic itself. The Dalish's entire religion gives Mages Rule by Divine Right, whether they are up to the job or not*. Even if a skilled hunter is a better leader, they will initially be passed over because they lack "The Creator's Blessing"**. But hey, who cares about normal people, right? They're not special .
*In Origins I roleplayed my Dalish Warden this way. Despite excelling his Keeper training as a child, Jerrick's dreams were squashed upon discovering he lacked magic. Though he was still pro-Dalish, Maheriel silently stung that his skills weren't enough to them.
** If I were on the DA writing team, I would make this a quest: you find a Dalish Clan divided between two different leaders, a skilled and charismatic Hunter or an inexperienced First. The Hunter has no problem with magic, but says the First doesn't have what it takes to lead. The First claims that denying them leadership is blasphemous and human appeasement. Support the First, they keep Dalish traditions but make costly blunders. Support the Hunter, the Clan adapts but is shunned by other Dalish.
This want to be a new pro-Circle–anti-Circle, Chantry solution–dalish solution debate? ... Good enough: the writers are not consistent in the mage issues, because they created a monster*, what swallowed up the logic... (The whole Thedas would be already destroyed, at least Tevinter, dalish, avvars etc.) *magic are dangerous, the mages should be imprisoned, because this is the one good solution. (I played as Circle mage (Surana) at first, and I found that terrible, and inhumane "solution")
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 20, 2017 23:56:05 GMT
We have Zathrian's clan rescue a wounded Anenrin who was on the verge of death because templars attacked him as a child when he ran from the Circle. Zathrian rescued Lanaya from bandits, and the clan offered to take her back home. Alarith's life was saved by Dalish when bandits murdered his parents and his brother and almost got to him; they also left his belongings alone. Merrill says that the plight of Andrastian elves matters and chastises Fenris (a Tevinter elf) when it seems like he doesn't care about them, and says to him they are "our people". You seem to generalize and denigrate the Dalish as if they all hold negative views on Andrastian elves, even though there are a number of examples that disprove this. I think you missed the second part of spiritofsolace's point; that it was less about supposed Dalish antipathy towards City Elves, and more how Dalish fans keep idealizing a completely unified culture that doesn't actually exist in the lore. It's hardly idealized to point out that the Dalish having the same views about mages and magic as Andrastians makes little sense. We've all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, complex fantasy with deeply flawed characters and no easy answers. Yet, every single time the writers try to portray the Dalish as three dimensional as everyone else, it's an "attack". There's a stark difference between incessant negativity and three-dimensional. Fallout 4 portrays the Eastern chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel and the clandestine Railroad as three-dimensional groups; the Dalish, in contrast, get an incessantly negative portrayal. Wanting a more nuanced portrayal isn't the same as wanting an 'idealized' portrayal, and the people who think Dalish fans only want an idealized portrayal never seem to genuinely understand the actual criticism that's being made. Sure, humans can be good, evil, weird, ordinary, and everything in between. But ELVES must be superior, inherently more moral and spiritual, otherwise why bother using them? The comments from people like Faerunner, DragonFlight, TheEtherealWriterRedux, and many others has consistently been for a more nuanced portrayal - rather than simply putting negativity at the forefront. It's the same criticism directed at TME, where Gaspard, Celene, Michel and other Andrastian characters were written as three-dimensional people, but the Dalish were pretty much one-dimensional, to the point where the warleader doesn't even get a name and seems to exist solely to make Michel look good by comparison. To conflate wanting a three-dimensional portrayal with 'perfection' seems to be the problem with folks like spiritofsolace, who don't understand the actual complaints that are being made by Dalish fans. Even when the deconstruction of the Tolkien model was the whole point Considering the repeated inconsistencies in Dragon Age because the developers never planned ahead, acting like it was the Plan all along is a bit disingenuous. And the Elder Scrolls already gave us intriguing, three-dimensional elven races like the Dunmer, who were allowed to have good and terrible aspects to their culture instead of solely focusing on the negative. And the Dunmer are my favorite race in the Elder Scrolls, as you might be able to discern from my avatar. Don't agree? Prove me wrong; if you are a diehard Elf fan, tell me all the times you think criticism of them was actually justified. Times that you can accept the Dalish acting like believably flawed people, and not ideals. Considering that Dalish fans asking for a three-dimensional portrayal of the Dalish is what fans actually asked for, you seem to be missing the point entirely in thinking that anyone wants an idealized portrayal. One of my favorite groups are House Telvanni, and if you're even vaguely familiar with Dunmer lore, you know they generally aren't good guys by any measure of the imagination. Neloth, as one example, is an example of an awesome Telvanni mage, and he's far, far from idealized. He's deeply flawed, self-centered, critical, never butters your butt, crosses the line, and engages in deeply weird experiments. He's a fun character. The 3 Mage rule was a stupid retcon, but I suspect it had more to do with Mages in general rather than the Dalish. Not surprisingly, Mages are another group that most DA fans prefer to whitewash. I'm pretty sure disagreeing with the Chantry controlled Circles has nothing to do with whitewashing mages. No one ever pretended that all mages were perfect; people disagreed with a system that they found abhorrent and toxic.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 21, 2017 0:04:59 GMT
3) Cassandra not being the military commander of the Inquisition. 5) The location and design of Skyhold. It sits in a crater high on a mountain. The only way in and out is a single thin bridge. This is an absolute logistical nightmare for an army. 6) The Grey Wardens panicking with the fake Calling. This is a thousand-year-old organization of grizzled veterans and they behave like stupid children especially quivering before the Inquisition. And then accepting either of the orders of a young uppity organization called the Inquisition. 8) Morrigan, an unknown apostate, previously a person who had trouble with the concept of a handshake, became an expert player of Orlesian politics and intrigue and became an trsuted adviser of the Empress. 3] She could have been offered it but refused it. From what I understand, Seekers are not as numerous as the Templars and specialised in overcoming rogue templars. They're the overseers of the Templar Order whereas the latter are more of an army assigned to watch the mages all over Southern Thedas. 5] Skyhold was built by the ancient Elves and they, as we know, did not need typical gates to travel anywhere. For all we know, there could have been an enormous eluvian in the castle in ages past. In the present, the main bulk of the Inquisition army is not in the castle but down in the valley. 6] It's easy to say the Wardens are stupid to panic. They were expecting a slow gradual buildup over the years, a slow reduction in their numbers, not the sudden blare ringing in their heads and that everyone would go at once. Can anyone think coherently / logically in such circumstances? The strongest would fight back, the weakest would scrabble for any solution to make it stop and those unable to cope, may even suicide. Accepting the Inquisition lead is the only choice of redemption they have once news of what they had done is public. They will be condemned and rejected everywhere. 8) It has been ten years. Morrigan has always struck me as a clever woman. She's a fast learner.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 21, 2017 0:07:30 GMT
So, I didn't remember those other references to the 3 mages rule that gervaise21 mentioned, and I managed to found the dialogue from Vivienne, which now I know I never get because I always go with "that's just chantry rethoric" ... And, wtf? I mean, it was already and odd decision to put such a polemic affirmation in the lips of a girl who was just a little child when she left the clan, but putting it too in the lips of the person that just because you're dalish assumed you were self taught, as in "I know nothing about how dalish train their mages", really takes the cake I refuse to believe that they decided to introduce this through characters so poorly qualified to know antyhing about them so, fan theory, not headcanon, because it is perfectly possible : either was Minaeve who told Vivienne that, or that is anti-dalish propaganda from the circles and Minaeve didn't actually remember a thing about how she got lost in the woods and just internalized that she was abandoned What I can't seem to find is what IB says about it? Anyone could help me with that? Iron Bull says it when he introduces you to the Chargers. Between the mandatory scenes with Minaeve, Vivienne, and Iron Bull all regurgitating the same rhetoric about the Dalish and mages in complete opposition to everything that came before, it simply seemed to serve one purpose. That said, there's a really good fan story that was written that reconciles Minaeve's claims with 'what actually happened'. I elected to incorporate it into my own headcanon.
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Post by javeart on Jan 21, 2017 0:43:24 GMT
Iron Bull says it when he introduces you to the Chargers. Between the mandatory scenes with Minaeve, Vivienne, and Iron Bull all regurgitating the same rhetoric about the Dalish and mages in complete opposition to everything that came before, it simply seemed to serve one purpose. That said, there's a really good fan story that was written that reconciles Minaeve's claims with 'what actually happened'. I elected to incorporate it into my own headcanon. Well, the fan story was really cool and makes sense... Though the fact the Dalish girl from the Charges (not a fan of the chargers, I don't usually investigate in that dialogue ) says the same thing, definitely makes it pointless :/ Vivienne and Minaeve could (should) be misinformed but another Dalish talking about the same practice in her clan is too big a coincidence... it doesn't make any sense and it's so poorly done... Why would they do this, what was the point? I guess one could still think that it is a practice that some clans are adopting now because... because what? Meh, I'm not sure it's worth trying to find an explanation... Ok, so now I have two headcanons . I'll avoid all the dialogue options that lead up to this lines and pretend it didn't happen, at least it's easy to avoid :/ thanks for the links though!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 21, 2017 1:08:13 GMT
Iron Bull says it when he introduces you to the Chargers. Between the mandatory scenes with Minaeve, Vivienne, and Iron Bull all regurgitating the same rhetoric about the Dalish and mages in complete opposition to everything that came before, it simply seemed to serve one purpose. That said, there's a really good fan story that was written that reconciles Minaeve's claims with 'what actually happened'. I elected to incorporate it into my own headcanon. Well, the fan story was really cool and makes sense... Though the fact the Dalish girl from the Charges (not a fan of the chargers, I don't usually investigate in that dialogue ) says the same thing, definitely makes it pointless :/ Vivienne and Minaeve could (should) be misinformed but another Dalish talking about the same practice in her clan is too big a coincidence... it doesn't make any sense and it's so poorly done... Why would they do this, what was the point? I guess one could still think that it is a practice that some clans are adopting now because... because what? Meh, I'm not sure it's worth trying to find an explanation... Ok, so now I have two headcanons . I'll avoid all the dialogue options that lead up to this lines and pretend it didn't happen, at least it's easy to avoid :/ thanks for the links though! No problem. Following the story's narrative of the world, it's a common enough 'tale' about the Dalish that Iron Bull could have thought it was the reason why 'Dalish' wasn't with her clan since Andrastians genuinely believe it to be true. Or you could always subscribe to Xil's interpretation that 'Dalish' was lying about why she wasn't with her clan anymore since she has vallaslin, so it doesn't make sense that she would have been kicked out as a child (like Minaeve said she was) if she has the mark of adulthood.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 21, 2017 1:23:17 GMT
The problems with "kill the mage if they get out of hand" being the only rule is that:
1. There might not be anyone left to kill the mage.
2. Even without Demons and Blood Magic, and evil and/or incompetent mage could still potentially lead their Clan to ruin. Hell, they technically don't even need to use magic itself. The Dalish's entire religion gives Mages Rule by Divine Right, whether they are up to the job or not*. Even if a skilled hunter is a better leader, they will initially be passed over because they lack "The Creator's Blessing"**. But hey, who cares about normal people, right? They're not special . [...]
While I'm sure some Dalish Clans interpret it this way, I would not go so far to say that the entire religion claims that. Several hints imply that their rule is only accepted because they act wise, and that hahrens debatably carry the position of clan leadership with them. Now don't get me wrong, the prevalence of 'only Keepers can be Clan leaders' does irk me some (a lot in some cases), but it seems to be symbolic almost as much as it is a genuine role in their culture. A culture, I remind you, that puts exceptional value of preserving their ancient culture and history. The Keeper is living and breathing practice they were able to preserve since the fall of the Dales. That being said, Keepers are practically synonymous with Dalish leaders at this point. Even though it is very possible the Keepers were only spiritual leaders/priests at the time of the Elvhen Kingdom, as opposed to military or lordly ones that presumably composed the majority of their aristocracy. (Somehow I doubt the elves would reinstate a government reminiscent of the Tevinter Imperium that enslaved them). But I could be wrong--easily so in fact. Information on the governmental structure of the Elven Kingdom is scarce. But thus far I have seen few in-game elves object to it, and I have yet to see a Keeper use brutal means to ensure their position. If the elves themselves want to keep the Keeper in a leading role, let them. I see nothing inherently wrong with it. As with others, my irritation with the position is on a case by case basis.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 21, 2017 1:33:20 GMT
There are probably a few other things that I conveniently ignore but the first and probably one of the most egregious disregarding of "fact" I make is: -Anders is a character in Dragon Age 2. Nope. As far as I'm concerned, that's not Anders. That's Justice, possessing Anders' corpse after the "real" Anders died defending the Vigil. Justice just doesn't realize it because his previous experience with possessing a corpse, the corpse's brain had already had a few days to rot.
Edit/PS - I do also try to ignore a lot of what felt like retcons to the Dalish and elves in general that were made in Inquisition (the mage thing is silly, but IMO so is the sudden assumption that Dalish, and even City Elves, who were previously indicated to be generally Andrastian, actively worship the Creators).
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 21, 2017 1:38:22 GMT
2. Even without Demons and Blood Magic, and evil and/or incompetent mage could still potentially lead their Clan to ruin. Hell, they technically don't even need to use magic itself. The Dalish's entire religion gives Mages Rule by Divine Right, whether they are up to the job or not*. Even if a skilled hunter is a better leader, they will initially be passed over because they lack "The Creator's Blessing"**. But hey, who cares about normal people, right? They're not special . Technically speaking, the hahren also have positions of authority in the clan, and they aren't mages; there's even the example of Mahariel's parents, where hahren were able to prohibit a Keeper from publicly being romantically involved with a member of a clan, so the two of them met in secret. Also, while you can criticize the Dalish for promoting the role of Keeper to a mage, it's something you can criticize almost every society in Thedas, like the dwarven kingdom and the human nations who promote leadership based on 'royal blood'. There's no genuine democracy in Thedas. Conceptually, the closest Thedas ever got to that was Aldenon the Wise and his dream for what Ferelden could be, but Calenhad screwed his dream over by allying with the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, leading to this outburst: “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”
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Post by spiritofsolace on Jan 21, 2017 3:54:11 GMT
We have Zathrian's clan rescue a wounded Anenrin who was on the verge of death because templars attacked him as a child when he ran from the Circle. Zathrian rescued Lanaya from bandits, and the clan offered to take her back home. Alarith's life was saved by Dalish when bandits murdered his parents and his brother and almost got to him; they also left his belongings alone. Merrill says that the plight of Andrastian elves matters and chastises Fenris (a Tevinter elf) when it seems like he doesn't care about them, and says to him they are "our people". You seem to generalize and denigrate the Dalish as if they all hold negative views on Andrastian elves, even though there are a number of examples that disprove this. I think you missed the second part of spiritofsolace's point; that it was less about supposed Dalish antipathy towards City Elves, and more how Dalish fans keep idealizing a completely unified culture that doesn't actually exist in the lore. We've all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, complex fantasy with deeply flawed characters and no easy answers. Yet, every single time the writers try to portray the Dalish as three dimensional as everyone else, it's an "attack". Sure, humans can be good, evil, weird, ordinary, and everything in between. But ELVES must be superior, inherently more moral and spiritual, otherwise why bother using them? Even when the deconstruction of the Tolkien model was the whole point
He missed my point entirely and also proved my point about Dalish fans. You get what I am trying to say though. The Dalish being ethnocentrist does not imply that they would leave random city elves to die. Being indifferent to other peoples' cultural expression and being unable to see things from their perspective is not remotely the same as whatever it is Lob is trying to say here. One thing I like about DA is that it depicts the various elf cultures, of which there are three not one, as being separate. And also critiques the idea that they would relate to each other based on some sort of weird ethnocentrist nationalism. Like the fact that they have pointed ears makes their different cultures and life experiences inconsequential. If you treated real people like that people would recognize that as the profound racism it is. How did spiritofsolace's post amount to that? It seemed like spiritofsolace was against generalising the Dalish as acting exactly the same. This is especially given the objection to this line of thinking: "Being Dalish or an elf can't mean something different to different people."
Yes, there could exist some Dalish guy who finds the important part of being Dalish to be something like self reliance or being a really good hunter. And I don't think anyone would have the right to tell this hypothetical person that their sense of their own identity was wrong just because they value those things more highly then magic or whatever it is that wannabe cultural gate keepers dictate. In the same vein, maybe the clan that instated the mage rule had local templars coming down on them hard because they had had a serious problem with abominations or the local circle was unusually hard line. This clan may very well value magic but they might not have been willing to sacrifice their lives and their childrens to a cultural ideal. Would this clan now cease to be Dalish, again who even decides that? That is my argument. I'm not saying the the three mage rule was well implemented by the writers though. I find it plausible but they sure didn't explain it well enough. I don't think it really adds anything either
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Post by phoray on Jan 21, 2017 4:16:00 GMT
Okay, I'm going to double window this and go through all the ones mentioned already. The Dalish Rule of Three: I accepted this as a thing some clans do. I have read gervaise21 's posts regarding this idea and I agree. The clans that ditch extra mages AREN'T Dalish. See, I head canon that the same clans that are super violent and into banditry also never go to the 10 year Arlathvhens. I recall reading somewhere that there may even be some death worship blood magic using elves? These elves are so drastically different from the generally avoidant "nice" clans who talk about Arlathvhen that yes, they are NOT Dalish, they are merely elves with their own agendas who have rejected all this Dalish roaming quietly until -someday- bullshit and gone rogue. By association, that Viv even friggin knows about this rule is weird. As if she'd ever take an interest in Dalish customs long enough to learn about how some obscure clans kick their mages out. The only thing I can guess it she overheard Mineave being bitter about it, and now she's using the information as a weapon to attack an Quiz she's disagreeing with<- the only time she brings it up. Alistair's Parentage: I consider Origins to be only partially canon. I believe the writers have made decisions, and only now, with their Dragon Age Bible in hand, can they be trusted to handle the lore well enough to take things as canon. I think the Dalish rule of three was a bad choice, and they may strike it from the Bible. I sure hope so. Anyway, my point is, I totally accept that she is Alistair's mom. A book AND DAI support this. So, it's Loghain's comments about King Marric's Fidelity that I entirely ignore, not a whole book and DAI. The Fake Calling: I head canon that through a combination of blood magic and forgeries of letters, Warden Clarel and those she's supervised thought that Weishaupt had confirmed that the Calling was truly happening to all Warden's and that the "digging up all the Archdemon's NOW" had the stamp of approval. Making them far less stupid and much more human. Erimund is the most disgusting antagonist, he's a step above Howe, and I relish their deaths SO MUCH... my point is, a bit of mind control and letter forgery is absolutely stuff he would do. Origins Boons to the Warden: I think all the boons of Origins worked out except for the Dalish one. But the Dalish are still left near entirely alone, there is a law against messing with them. This is tied to Fereldan's desire to be as unlike Orlais as possible. Orlais sends out Dalish Hunting Parties-- let's be the opposite. Additionally, I only consider Origins to be partially canon all around. This thought/theme will return. Fiona selling the mages: Although I've read complicated theories on the time magic involved.... Blood magic is less confusing and more lore supported then that mess. The fact that any go along with it? Eh. Sorry. But Emile from DA2 is probably closer to the reality of how Circle Mages understand how to get around the real world rather than Vivienne. Hawke going to Weishaupt: Someone else's theory but I absorb it now. Considering all the blood magic and crow letter forgeries that led to the mess of the Wardens of DAI, someone well known for their strength and will power was needed to physically go to Weishaupt to explain what actually happened during that whole...clusterfuck. People at the Conclave that shouldn't or should be there: He was being an expository power showing jerk and it bit him where it hurt. Why Leliana, Cassandra, and other important figures weren't there is more confusing but Varric was having a drink down at the tavern, and it's possible that the women were just briefly away on a short errand *shrug* I know, it's weak.. Why Viv wasn't there seems tied to why that Orlesian was yelling at her in the Trailer. Obviously, Court Matters had drawn her away. Perhaps Bastien's sickness; she loves him more than watching Templars and Mages bicker, at least for a few days. Luscious would not have been at the Conclave, he was doing Cult stuff already and cared nothing for the World of Thedas any longer, let alone actual Templar matters. Fiona is a tricky one. eh. Teagan being a jerk: He wanted to win the argument, he's not going to bring up the good stuff the Wardens and the Quiz has done. Anora may hate the Wardens, and Alistair trusts Teagan- between those two world states, I'd say he was left to his devices to say what he wanted to say. Alistair and Lyrium: I totally didn't see this as a problem, because game mechanics break from lore so often I don't blink. But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the writers just couldn't figure out or have the time to work in the addiction angle, so dropped it even if it didn't make sense. Cuz game mechanics vs lore peeps! Morrigan in DAI: Merril should have taken Morrigan's spot in DAI but since she could legit be a dead body on the ground and they didn't like her enough, she got dropped. Morrigan, however, had Orlais references from her epilogue in Origins and they want to follow up on the OGB anyway, so there she appeared. I'm both sad and happy by this. I don't have problems with Morrigan at the court. She refuses to play the game. And she's so sexy and mysterious they let her and start wearing black like she does. Other than just keeping her mouth shut, I think she is capable of that, it maintains her mystery and helps her win the Game. She also has nothing to really offer, so I bet they just don't know what to do with her. The timing of her being the Court Enchanter is also...ambiguous. When did Viv step down exactly? And i think Morrigan is important because Flemeythal is important. Cory's body hopping makes no sense. I have found nothing to head canon fix this. I don't care one way or the other whether Andraste was a mage. Interesting, it would be funny, but it's irrelevant to the very present now in the game. unless Bioware explores it, we'll never know one way or the other. I so rarely read codexs that the Enigma of Kirkwall doesn't need a head canon. I also don't understand what the problem was that you need to fix it, I'm just lost on this whole explantion. That's it for the first page.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2017 4:27:55 GMT
There are probably a few other things that I conveniently ignore but the first and probably one of the most egregious disregarding of "fact" I make is: -Anders is a character in Dragon Age 2. Nope. As far as I'm concerned, that's not Anders. That's Justice, possessing Anders' corpse after the "real" Anders died defending the Vigil. Justice just doesn't realize it because his previous experience with possessing a corpse, the corpse's brain had already had a few days to rot. Edit/PS - I do also try to ignore a lot of what felt like retcons to the Dalish and elves in general that were made in Inquisition (the mage thing is silly, but IMO so is the sudden assumption that Dalish, and even City Elves, who were previously indicated to be generally Andrastian, actively worship the Creators). Anders didn't died in my worlds. So: 1. Someone have Anders + Justice 2. Someone have Justice in Anders' (rotting?) corpse... Leliana also may dead in DAO.
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Post by phoray on Jan 21, 2017 4:38:46 GMT
2) Cullen's questionable past being completely ignored. His brutality in both Circle endings of DAO. His being the second-in-command of Meredith for years. And him still thinking Meredith's policies kept people safe and mages aren't people. And then the game basically tells me I need to feel bad for this pretty boy becuz of his "experiences" in DAO and DA2. And his romance bing all about "me me me!" becuz he can't see any bad-mage-thing in the Inquisitor and the Inquistor bemoans how can Cullen be with something like her? A mage?
3) Cassandra not being the military commander of the Inquisition. 7) The spy networks of Celene, Gaspard, and Briala failing to notice the Tevinters snooping around. 9) Apparently all the Creators were evil assholes with no redeeming values except for Mythal and Solas very conveniently. 10) Solas's plan apparently going to kill all peoples, not just the non-elves. If I had my way, modern-elves would be spared from this plan, giving a little more complexity and a bit of actual incentive for Elves to join him, including the Inquisitor. 1. I haven't seen Cullen be allowed to be brutal in DAO. He always gets the total shut down from Gregoir. In my head, he simmers with frustration, driving him to ask for a transfer. The true and actual trauma of being tortured by teh mages you wanted to protect and their pet demons they called forth made him pull a total 360 on his initial goals for being a Templar. So, after his transsfer, he is exposed to Meredith and truly believes her seemingly sensible understanding of the danger of mages is THE way to beleive. He takes comfort in her controlling nature. Frankly, he needed therapy and got Knight Commander Meredith. I mean, hell, this is a major plot point. Samson felt abandoned, the Templars felt abandoned, the whole order felt led astray by the Chantry that had become their leader in a world where Seekers were seemingly taking a vacation. If Cullen breaks his addiction, he then focuses on creating a place for the Templars to seek healing, both physical and mental. <- a place he desperately needed after what had happened to him and that didn't exist for him to use. So, some Templars turned to the oblivion of lyrium, but Cullen turned to exacting order/strictness/control of the area around you. Became OCD, although they gloss over the seriousness with teasing. That's why when he sweeps away his desk just to make out with the Quiz that it's so HUGE. And I NEVER took my Quiz asking Cullen about accepting her as a mage as a sign of self hate or...admitting to a dirty sin. Cullen has shared his history a bit at that point. But he also comes across as very anti mage if you ally/conscript the mages. This is an honest concern from a Quiz about whether CULLEN can handle dating a mage considering his history. How is this not relevant and how is this self hating? For example, if I met a guy who said he hated dogs but loved me, I'd have to be like... dude, I have THREE dogs. This is a thing we need to discuss. In the end, Cullen doesn' t hate mages. He just has a painful history that affects his daily life on varying levels. 3. Huh. I did recently notice how she drops from the forefront of the Inquiisition as soon as one gets Skyhold. The only explaination I have is that she actually hates the leadership position. Like, really hates it. Strong opinions though. 7) Don't forget Lel's spies allowing two assasination attempts inside Skyhold walls as well as barely noticing Thom wasn't Blackwall. I expect better of Briala, considering her connections and eluvians, and definitely better of the all powerful Leliana. Briala may be fighting an issue. She's trying to fix a broken present. Solas is offering an explosion to bring back a total comeback of all elves. Briala isn't even a mage. Solas is powerful and can turn you into stone. She's just going to be less popular among the elves. 9 and 10 is information that is just setting up DA4.
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Post by phoray on Jan 21, 2017 4:59:51 GMT
Lazarillo Justice can't keep a body from rotting, therefore, that has to actually be Anders since he doesn't appear to be dead in DA2. Editadd: It occured to me just after posting that this isn't the thread for arguing head canon's, of all things, and I've been doing that too much. Enjoy your head canon. As a person who actually disliked Awakening Anders near completely for being a spineless coward, I wouldn't want to head canon that the DA2 Anders I romanced was NOT a sexier improved version of that child who finally grew up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 5:03:34 GMT
Origins Boons to the Warden: I think all the boons of Origins worked out except for the Dalish one. But the Dalish are still left near entirely alone, there is a law against messing with them. This is tied to Fereldan's desire to be as unlike Orlais as possible. Orlais sends out Dalish Hunting Parties-- let's be the opposite. Additionally, I only consider Origins to be partially canon all around. This thought/theme will return. Alistair and Lyrium: I totally didn't see this as a problem, because game mechanics break from lore so often I don't blink. But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the writers just couldn't figure out or have the time to work in the addiction angle, so dropped it even if it didn't make sense. Cuz game mechanics vs lore peeps! Cory's body hopping makes no sense. I have found nothing to head canon fix this. 1) Also the mage boon. The Chantry makes sure that doesn't get respected. 2)If I remember correctly, according to Alistair people don't get lyrium until they complete their Templar training. He said that Templar abilities are still accessible, but lyrium makes them more powerful. Alistair didn't complete his training, or more of he didn't take his vows before the Grey Wardens whisked him away. That's why he's not addicted to lyrium. Really I think its chain for the Chantry to control their Templars. 3) who does Cory's body hopping make no sense?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 5:04:28 GMT
Merril in DA:I instead of Morrigan: I will always disagree with this, while it would be better to have an elf be the "elven expert" at the Temple of Mythal instead of a human, that's not the point of the whole thing. The point was to reveal what became of Mythal and who Felemeth was. The point was to finish the arc between Morrigan and her mom. Replacing Morrigan with Merril would have the whole "My people prayed to you and you have done nothing," type tragedy to it, but I feel that wrapping up the arc between Morrigan and her mother takes precedents. Also, having Morrigan/Merril taking the well is more impact on Morrigan's end in a personal sense. Morrigan is now bound to in servitude to her mother, a woman who abused Morrigan as a child. Its personal tragedy. With Merril this would be yet another tragedy caused by her quest to learn elven history, and she already went through that with her Keeper taking the demon and ending up dead, along with the possible massacre of her clan. Honestly, Merril doesn't need to go through that again. Leave Merril alone.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2017 5:05:58 GMT
Lazarillo Justice can't keep a body from rotting, therefore, that has to actually be Anders since he doesn't appear to be dead in DA2. Editadd: It occured to me just after posting that this isn't the thread for arguing head canon's, of all things, and I've been doing that too much. Enjoy your head canon. As a person who actually disliked Awakening Anders near completely for being a spineless coward, I wouldn't want to head canon that the DA2 Anders I romanced was NOT a sexier improved version of that child who finally grew up. Aw! The spineless coward is so cruel and not true, but you're right, Anders in DA2, more sexy and more complex.
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Post by phoray on Jan 21, 2017 5:07:48 GMT
Origins Boons to the Warden: I think all the boons of Origins worked out except for the Dalish one. But the Dalish are still left near entirely alone, there is a law against messing with them. This is tied to Fereldan's desire to be as unlike Orlais as possible. Orlais sends out Dalish Hunting Parties-- let's be the opposite. Additionally, I only consider Origins to be partially canon all around. This thought/theme will return. Alistair and Lyrium: I totally didn't see this as a problem, because game mechanics break from lore so often I don't blink. But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the writers just couldn't figure out or have the time to work in the addiction angle, so dropped it even if it didn't make sense. Cuz game mechanics vs lore peeps! Cory's body hopping makes no sense. I have found nothing to head canon fix this. 1) Also the mage boon. The Chantry makes sure that doesn't get respected. 2)If I remember correctly, according to Alistair people don't get lyrium until they complete their Templar training. He said that Templar abilities are still accessible, but lyrium makes them more powerful. Alistair didn't complete his training, or more of he didn't take his vows before the Grey Wardens whisked him away. That's why he's not addicted to lyrium. Really I think its chain for the Chantry to control their Templars. 3) who does Cory's body hopping make no sense? 1. The boon was given, nothing went wrong, but then the Mage Templar war happened. At least there was an on screen explaintion. I think the Dalish Boon not working out actually got only one line of dialogue somewhere. 2. I remember that too, but a lot of folks have argued that he is too powerful an almost-Templar not to have been taking lyrium. Besides, it was available, he could ahve used it. 3. His body hopping requiring a dragon makes no sense. He didn't have a dragon when he escaped the Warden Prison. Even in his confused state, he was able to jump to Janeka/Larius post death immediatley. That some sort of weird Lord Voldemort soul splicing thing with the dragon was his major weakness is just weird and makes no sense.
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Post by phoray on Jan 21, 2017 5:11:05 GMT
Merril in DA:I instead of Morrigan: I will always disagree with this, while it would be better to have an elf be the "elven expert" at the Temple of Mythal instead of a human, that's not the point of the whole thing. The point was to reveal what became of Mythal and who Felemeth was. The point was to finish the arc between Morrigan and her mom. Replacing Morrigan with Merril would have the whole "My people prayed to you and you have done nothing," type tragedy to it, but I feel that wrapping up the arc between Morrigan and her mother takes precedents. Also, having Morrigan/Merril taking the well is more impact on Morrigan's end in a personal sense. Morrigan is now bound to in servitude to her mother, a woman who abused Morrigan as a child. Its personal tragedy. With Merril this would be yet another tragedy caused by her quest to learn elven history, and she already went through that with her Keeper taking the demon and ending up dead, along with the possible massacre of her clan. Honestly, Merril doesn't need to go through that again. Leave Merril alone. Well, that's why I said it made me both happy and sad. I like the Morrigan Mother Flemythal story arc, ESPECIALLY with Kieran. But there is no Dalish representation in DAI outside of the Inquisitor. And Merril suffered to make that Eluvian work. I dunno, she deserved to find all the Elven stuff. Morrigan probably found it and then HID it from the Dalish, because they're not good enough to have access to it. That Elitism sucks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 5:25:14 GMT
1) Also the mage boon. The Chantry makes sure that doesn't get respected. 2)If I remember correctly, according to Alistair people don't get lyrium until they complete their Templar training. He said that Templar abilities are still accessible, but lyrium makes them more powerful. Alistair didn't complete his training, or more of he didn't take his vows before the Grey Wardens whisked him away. That's why he's not addicted to lyrium. Really I think its chain for the Chantry to control their Templars. 3) who does Cory's body hopping make no sense? 1. The boon was given, nothing went wrong, but then the Mage Templar war happened. At least there was an on screen explaintion. I think the Dalish Boon not working out actually got only one line of dialogue somewhere. 2. I remember that too, but a lot of folks have argued that he is too powerful an almost-Templar not to have been taking lyrium. Besides, it was available, he could ahve used it. 3. His body hopping requiring a dragon makes no sense. He didn't have a dragon when he escaped the Warden Prison. Even in his confused state, he was able to jump to Janeka/Larius post death immediatley. That some sort of weird Lord Voldemort soul splicing thing with the dragon was his major weakness is just weird and makes no sense. 1) I beleive that if you take Merril with you when you meet King Alistair she will ask him about it. 2) I think that Templars probably don't really need lyrium and that the necessity of the lyrium was just a lie for the Chantry to keep a leash on their Templars. The warden can even point out that this is a very good way of controlling people. 3) It really is just taking a page out of Harry Potter. Cory should have made more horcruxes.
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Post by lynroy on Jan 21, 2017 6:36:48 GMT
5) The location and design of Skyhold. It sits in a crater high on a mountain. The only way in and out is a single thin bridge. This is an absolute logistical nightmare for an army. The beginning of this video is enlightening. The point is to protect what is inside and keep invading forces out. Castello di Salorno in Italy is the one he brings up as a good direct comparison to Skyhold's location. It seems to me BioWare did some research before creating Skyhold. My only problem with Skyhold is actually at the other end of the bridge where there appears to be no way to get up there at all. I was so curious I took flycam out there and discovered nothing. Just cliffs. I guess everyone had to free climb to make it up to the entry bridge.
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Post by opuspace on Jan 21, 2017 6:58:59 GMT
We have Zathrian's clan rescue a wounded Anenrin who was on the verge of death because templars attacked him as a child when he ran from the Circle. Zathrian rescued Lanaya from bandits, and the clan offered to take her back home. Alarith's life was saved by Dalish when bandits murdered his parents and his brother and almost got to him; they also left his belongings alone. Merrill says that the plight of Andrastian elves matters and chastises Fenris (a Tevinter elf) when it seems like he doesn't care about them, and says to him they are "our people". You seem to generalize and denigrate the Dalish as if they all hold negative views on Andrastian elves, even though there are a number of examples that disprove this. I think you missed the second part of spiritofsolace's point; that it was less about supposed Dalish antipathy towards City Elves, and more how Dalish fans keep idealizing a completely unified culture that doesn't actually exist in the lore. We've all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, complex fantasy with deeply flawed characters and no easy answers. Yet, every single time the writers try to portray the Dalish as three dimensional as everyone else, it's an "attack". Sure, humans can be good, evil, weird, ordinary, and everything in between. But ELVES must be superior, inherently more moral and spiritual, otherwise why bother using them? Even when the deconstruction of the Tolkien model was the whole point . Don't agree? Prove me wrong; if you are a diehard Elf fan, tell me all the times you think criticism of them was actually justified. Times that you can accept the Dalish acting like believably flawed people, and not ideals.
The 3 Mage rule was a stupid retcon, but I suspect it had more to do with Mages in general rather than the Dalish. Not surprisingly, Mages are another group that most DA fans prefer to whitewash.
Ok, I'll try and give this a whack. Criticism of the Dalish regarding their extreme suspicion and hostility of outsiders, their obsession with preserving their history at the cost of more practical goals such as establishing alliances and a power base and shunning of members who don't integrate or cooperate with their traditions are valid. There are definitely elements of racism and they sure as hell were not innocent in wars they've participated in. They clearly don't have the whole picture of their gods, why their kingdoms of long ago fell or even whether their traditions represent what they think they really mean. What grates about the portrayal is that the Dalish, to me, are constantly criticized and blamed for all those flaws but they're not given enough explanation or justification as to why. If Mahariel's backstory involved a consequence where sparing those humans meant that they would lead a raiding party to kill the clan in the middle of the night, every Dalish's hostile attitude towards outsiders would make more sense. They live in a world that's reminiscent of the Walking Dead where everyone is trying to kill or exploit them while they're trying to stay alive. What I'd love is to see Andrastians get the same treatment for their faith and actions in the name of the Maker. No Andrastian protagonist has been put through the same amount of gloating and mockery that a Dalish Inquisitor endures.
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Post by vit246 on Jan 21, 2017 7:01:24 GMT
5) The location and design of Skyhold. It sits in a crater high on a mountain. The only way in and out is a single thin bridge. This is an absolute logistical nightmare for an army. The beginning of this video is enlightening. The point is to protect what is inside and keep invading forces out. Castello di Salorno in Italy is the one he brings up as a good direct comparison to Skyhold's location. It seems to me BioWare did some research before creating Skyhold. My only problem with Skyhold is actually at the other end of the bridge where there appears to be no way to get up there at all. I was so curious I took flycam out there and discovered nothing. Just cliffs. I guess everyone had to free climb to make it up to the entry bridge. Tactically, Skyhold may be in a good position. Strategically, I question putting a castle into a craggy mountain range. Its too remote. Its supposed to protect something or block access. If the enemy can just ignore your fortress, its a little useless. And besides, the thought of having to trek through miles of narrow mountain paths every time you want to visit Ferelden or Orlais and then come back...y'know what, I'm probably thinking too hard about this. I invoke Rule of Cool.
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