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Post by Walter Black on Jan 24, 2017 21:58:13 GMT
Something has been on my mind for awhile, and rather than derail more threads, I suppose it's time I put it into a new one  . I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, adult fantasy filled with complex and deeply flawed characters, and no easy answers. Yet huge portions of the fandom continuously try to place Black and White definitions on Grey story lines. They idealize one group and demonize another, completely ignoring the shades and nuance of each. Alternatively, they associate the wrong connections of what something is supposed to represent, even when writers have explicitly stated what they meant  . Don't get me wrong, everyone is going to have their own interpretation, and not everyone will agree. But there's a fine line between liking or not liking the story you have been given, and openly twisting and/or ignoring it to conform to your "correct" vision. Just to be clear, this is specifically about certain Fan reactions and not the actual stories, as anyone can cherry pick whatever plot point best suits their argument. See how some characters are portrayed: I don't care how horrible the Fereldan occupation was, Loghain was an inhuman monster and you should be ashamed for excusing his sins. I don't care if Anders mind raped Justice by merging and murdered thousands of innocents, he had to act FOR THE REVOLUTION! I don't care what her background and personality are, Sera is an Elf and has a racial obligation to behave like one. See what I mean  ? No history or context, no nuance or development. It can be just as bad when we have characters that the player can canonically help change and possibly find redemption, like Isabella and Blackwall, but some players still paint them as irredeemable. Or Solas, for whom the jury is still out. Because the Dread Wolf (or Patrick Weekes, for that matter) has never lied about his intentions ... Also, take Mages for example; having innate power while being oppressed certainly appeals to various minorities, be they racial, religious, sexual, etcetera. Thing is? It's the WRONG metaphor  . Being able to shoot fire and control minds is NOT the same as simply having different skin color, sexual orientation, or other such. David Gaider (a gay man, remember?) specifically created the Circle story line because in traditional Dungeons & Dragons games, Mages simply cast Charm Person to get people to obey them with impunity. Even without the innate power discrepancies, Mages in Thedas always risk demonic possession. Mage fans are so hung up on what they want them to represent, that they completely ignore the in-universe reality Mages and Normals face. But who cares about regular people right? They're not special  . Another reason I have grown to dislike the Mages as X-Men approach, as it doesn't combat prejudice so much as reinforce it; They're just jealous of us because we really are better than they are. Personally, I consume fantasy to explore what does not, cannot exist. Using it for no more than window dressing of real world issues holds little interest to me. If you want to talk about racism or homophobia, be honest enough to talk about actual homophobia or racism. If Mages must use real world issues as crutch storytelling, I would prefer they focus on things like gun control and mental health. Otherwise, keep the fantasy in dark fantasy. Having said all that you must be thinking, "Wow, when did you become such a huge Templar fan?". I'm not, and insinuating it just because I can be wary of Dragon Age Mages is a false dichotomy. Remember, this about the overall tone of the series; Gray versus Gray, not Black or White. For truly adult storytelling, I honestly feel the best possible outcome of every choice in DA should be bittersweet. Another group that large portions of the fandom tend to whitewash are the Elves. Did Inquisition vilify the Dalish too much? Probably, but that was most likely in response to fans who demand that Elves be innocent victims in everything. What's worse are the complaints that Bioware are wrong for not following the Tolkein model; inherently wise, magical and beautiful immortals who are better that anyone at everything, for no other reason than being Elves. Paying homage to your influences is one thing, but in the end the Elvenhan have as much in common with the Noldor, the Kal'dorei, and the Drow as they do with the Keebler Elves  . Regardless of what came before, every story can and must stand on it's own. Plus, by idealizing the DA Elves to that extent, you cheapen their unique story and rob them of agency as three dimensional people in their own right. Look, I'm not saying you don't have the right to enjoy what you enjoy, but we all knew the kind of tale Dragon Age was telling from the beginning. Trying to insist the franchise should be more Black and White is like going to a Chinese restaurant and complaining that there is no pasta . |
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Post by fylimar on Jan 25, 2017 19:26:39 GMT
Great post, I agree with you. I'm an elf (and esoecially a Dalish) fan and I do like the shades of grey (sorry for accidently quoting bad literature  ) they gave the elves. No group in Theadas is just good or just bad. To stay with my example: I love the Dalish, but there are very single minded groups and individuals among them like in any other culture, which makes sense. I always thought, the Tolkien elves are a bit too perfect. And I don't agree, that the elves are vilified in DAI. So they have a shady past like nearly every other group too. It makes them more interesting. Plus you get a positive elven example with Clan Lavellan, who helps those villagers. Same with mages or grey wardens or templars - or even the Tevinter, now that we have finally meet some decent Tevinter with Dorian and Felix and some of the people from the war table missions. I like grey, there are no easy answers in real life, why should they be in a game that tries to be realistic (apart from the obvious fantasy setting of course  ) |
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Post by Iakus on Jan 25, 2017 19:36:35 GMT
Dragon Age is...complicated. No faction or organization is pure as the driven snow. For over a thousand years, mages (via teh Tevinter Imperium) perpetrated atrocities on the people of Thedas. Some still do, and the risk of becoming an abomination is very real even to those who don't misuse their power. But that does not excuse the oppression and abuse perpetrated on mages in the present. Similarly, Arlathan was not the fairy tale kingdom the modern Dalish dream of. Which again does not excuse the mistreatment of modern elves But in the end violence begets violence. Atrocity begets atrocity. If you're not one of "us", you are one of "them" And so it continues. Kinda like the real world  |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 25, 2017 20:02:23 GMT
Suggestion: add this TL;DR to the top of you post, for the sake of those doubtful about wanting to read you wall of words: TL;DR Yet huge portions of the fandom continuously try to place Black and White definitions on Grey story lines. I agree with your thesis, but I object to some of your examples. There's a fine line between fandom rationalizing away what's depicted and critiquing the depiction for being poorly done or inconsistent with itself. There's also some outright manipulation going on in the depiction, where Bioware plays with one's willingness to accept shades of grey by dressing up a truly evil character in those shades. A demon in Grey Warden's clothing, so to speak. I don't care how horrible the Fereldan occupation was, Loghain was an inhuman monster and you should be ashamed for excusing his sins. Yeah, I'm on record as being one of these guys. I'm appalled at the rationalizations I've seen for Loghain's actions in DAO. What he did is inexcusable, both in terms of in-game morality and in meta-game morality. Understandable? Maybe, but not excusable. I also think there's a bit of the demon in Grey Warden's clothing going on in the depiction as well. Setting the disaster at Ostagar aside, since there are some debateable interpretations in those events, what Loghain did upon returning to Denerim is pure, unadulterated treason. That is the most straightforward, face-value way to interpret the depiction. Even the bann's smelled a rat. One can believe they have the purest motives, save Fereldan from Orlais, and still do dirty deeds deserving of beheading. C'mon now, you can't write an essay about the fandom twisting things to their desires and not mention some Solasmancers forgiving Solas for seeking a mass extinction event. The jury is in, Solas is a war criminal in the making, of the highest order. The very fact that he's willing to pursue this path paints him as willing to do evil, regardless of his motives. If we can't agree that mass extinction is evil, regardless of motive, we're just not going to have any common ground for discussion. Motives don't excuse evil intent, they only explain it.
If you mean the jury is still out on whether he can be redeemed, again, the jury is in on that too. Of course he can. At least, to the extent we can trust Bioware to honor a choice that was made in a previous iteration, namely, in the Trespasser DLC. It would be a dirty trick to suggest the possibility of redemption in Trespasser and then fail to provide the option in DA4. Whoa! You are on thin ice here, on several counts. First of all, anyone who experiences oppression will find some solidarity with anyone else who experiences oppression, that's just human nature. It's not an issue of being a wrong metaphor, it's an issue of common cause. The extant reason for the oppression is beside the point. Oppression is such a gigantic injustice that it must always be questioned, scrutinized for abuse, and examined for exceptions. That's not to say that we should just ignore the extant reason, that's just as bad. The good of the individual versus the good of society is a very common moral balancing act that societies face in a number of different situations. This is just another of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with drawing parallels to similar situations in our own society, and you can bet that Bioware intended just that.Second of all, even if it's the wrong metaphor, what is your point here? That we shouldn't sympathize with the plight of the mages under any circumstances? That their oppression is totally justified and we should just accept it without question? Even when an individual mage proves time and again that they aren't the ticking time-bomb of risk they are all made out to be? You are exemplifying the very thing you are complaining about in your thesis: making black/white out of something that's grey. That's pretty ironic, given that Bioware takes unequivocal stances about real-world societal issues in the depictions of it's games. Bioware is routinely beaten up for "dragging" real-world issues into it's game, and not to examine both sides, to promote one side in particular. Your beef shouldn't be with fandom, it should be with Bioware. Here I tend to agree with you. See, I'm not totally in opposition. |
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 20:17:51 GMT
This is certainly an opinion. Mine, personally, is that while everything is gray, not everything is the same shade of gray, and greater and lesser evils most certainly exist. For instance, in WW2, the Allies had horrible people and did horrible things, but they were by far the lesser evil compared to the Axis. Since you won't really achieve true moral whiteness, dabbling in darkness to destroy worse threats is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. Which is largely how I feel about Anders. Another group that large portions of the fandom tend to whitewash are the Elves. Did Inquisition vilify the Dalish too much? Probably, but that was most likely in response to fans who demand that Elves be innocent victims in everything. What's worse are the complaints that Bioware are wrong for not following the Tolkein model; inherently wise, magical and beautiful immortals who are better that anyone at everything, for no other reason than being Elves. Paying homage to your influences is one thing, but in the end the Elvenhan have as much in common with the Noldor, the Kal'dorei, and the Drow as they do with the Keebler Elves . Regardless of what came before, every story can and must stand on it's own. Plus, by idealizing the DA Elves to that extent, you cheapen their unique story and rob them of agency as three dimensional people in their own right. This is pretty badly off the mark. The main problem Bioware has with its elven storytelling here is that it's racist. While you might be pseudo-correct with the mage issue not corresponding to RL oppressed people, elves most certainly do--this is in fact deliberately in their culture design. As such, the main thrust of criticism against Bioware here is declaring the elves to be complicit in their own oppression, or worse, somehow culpable for it. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 25, 2017 20:35:11 GMT
To my mind DAO got the balance right in how various factions were depicted. It truly was shades of grey. Some players may have had very extreme views and been unable to see the balance but the writers seemed to be consistent. I truly wonder when people say that the writers altered the depiction of a particular faction in reaction to player feedback, when often the people feeding back to them through the boards/facebook/twitter, etc, are only a small proportion of the people who actually play the game. Surely the first game, being called Origins, set the tone for the various races, factions, etc, in the game world and we should be able to expect consistency in that depiction from then on, no matter what fans might feel?
On the subject of the elves, in DAO what they sought to do was have something a bit different in that they did no longer inhabit their own magical kingdom (which was a distant memory) and had even lost their more mundane homeland. They were very much the underdogs, particularly the city elves, sitting at the bottom of the social standing, which is essentially different from a lot of fantasy literature. I actually liked this approach as it made playing them a bit different. However, the difference between these elves and Tolkein elves is their lack of power and a magical kingdom, not whether they are perfect or not. Anyone who suggests that Tolkein's elves are perfect has not really read Tolkein. True they don't keep slaves as Solas claims the Evanuris did, but there is a good deal in common between the High Elves of Tolkein and the Ancient Elves of Arlathan. To some extent I feel we lost something in them revealing that the ancient magical empire was a reality because suddenly we are back to the high fantasy elves of much of literature
I do feel that they vilified the Dalish too much in DAI and PW really did a hatchet job in Masked Empire. To anyone not familiar with DAO, it was implied that they were a typical Dalish clan, when anyone who had played the Dalish origin and read the codices associated with the Dalish knew that this was not the case. The answer the writers then give to this depiction of the Dalish that actually contradicted what we were told about them in DAO is that the clans are growing apart over the years and so there is in fact no typical Dalish clan. Which is somewhat ridiculous when you consider one of the main driving forces in their existence is to preserve their culture and they even have regular gatherings of the clans in order to ensure they are being consistent.
As for Sera, I have no problem with her not being a typical city elf, but it would have been helpful if her background had revealed just why she was so hung up on other elves being "elfy", even to the extent of insisting that her Dalish lover should reject her entire culture to suit Sera. To be honest, I wonder when (before the Inquisition) Sera ever actually met a Dalish elf, since she seems to have lived her entire life in the cities, whereas the Dalish spend their time as far away from the main centres of civilisation as possible. I would assume that all her knowledge of the Dalish was actually based off Chantry stories about them which are inherently prejudiced. As for her city elf background, we never learn what happened to her parents, why she left the alienage, in fact how she managed it since she was still a young girl at the time. So my problem with Sera is not that she is anti-elf but I never learn why?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 25, 2017 20:38:46 GMT
This is pretty badly off the mark. The main problem Bioware has with its elven storytelling here is that it's racist. While you might be pseudo-correct with the mage issue not corresponding to RL oppressed people, elves most certainly do--this is in fact deliberately in their culture design. As such, the main thrust of criticism against Bioware here is declaring the elves to be complicit in their own oppression, or worse, somehow culpable for it. The elves are oppressed because they lost a war to the humans. That's about it. There is now evidence to show they they weren't the innocent, peaceful people the Dalish thought hey were. That's...normal. As said before, it subverts the Tolkienesque version of elves being all good and wise and champions of all that is fair in the world. They had their own saints and sinners like everyone else. As to the modern Dalish, they are still a mixed bag. Some are decent folks willing to trade with the shems and just want to be left alone. Some are no better than xenophobic bandits. And there's plenty that are in-between. |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 25, 2017 20:39:19 GMT
As for Sera, I have no problem with her not being a typical city elf, but it would have been helpful if her background had revealed just why she was so hung up on other elves being "elfy", even to the extent of insisting that her Dalish lover should reject her entire culture to suit Sera. To be honest, I wonder when (before the Inquisition) Sera ever actually met a Dalish elf, since she seems to have lived her entire life in the cities, whereas the Dalish spend their time as far away from the main centres of civilisation as possible. I would assume that all her knowledge of the Dalish was actually based off Chantry stories about them which are inherently prejudiced. As for her city elf background, we never learn what happened to her parents, why she left the alienage, in fact how she managed it since she was still a young girl at the time. So my problem with Sera is not that she is anti-elf but I never learn why? I believe this is explained, or at least hinted at, though I'll admit it's not exactly straightforward. Pride Cookies sets Sera in opposition to pride. Who are some of the proudest folk in the known world? The Dalish. |
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Post by Iakus on Jan 25, 2017 20:43:34 GMT
As for Sera, I have no problem with her not being a typical city elf, but it would have been helpful if her background had revealed just why she was so hung up on other elves being "elfy", even to the extent of insisting that her Dalish lover should reject her entire culture to suit Sera. To be honest, I wonder when (before the Inquisition) Sera ever actually met a Dalish elf, since she seems to have lived her entire life in the cities, whereas the Dalish spend their time as far away from the main centres of civilisation as possible. I would assume that all her knowledge of the Dalish was actually based off Chantry stories about them which are inherently prejudiced. As for her city elf background, we never learn what happened to her parents, why she left the alienage, in fact how she managed it since she was still a young girl at the time. So my problem with Sera is not that she is anti-elf but I never learn why? I believe this is explained, or at least hinted at, though I'll admit it's not exactly straightforward. Pride Cookies sets Sera in opposition to pride. Who are some of the proudest folk in the known world? The Dalish. Dalish consider themselves the "nobles" of the elves. They claim descent from noble families of the Dales. And way too many of them consider city elves like her "flat ears" ie "not REAL elves" and look down on them. That's something pretty much guaranteed to get her back up, even if she herself sees no real differences between humans and elves. |
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Post by lundajfs on Jan 25, 2017 20:45:13 GMT
The franchise is black and white for me, because that's how I am. And it is shades of gray for those who see the world in such light. Everything is like this. Some poeple pick a side, others look for asnwers, other pick side after deep investigations, others still know there are no answer. This is a fact about people and life and that's ok. There is no single difficult decision for me in DA games. Loghain needs to die, he is evil villain, Bhelen is the greatest dwarf ever, Morrigan is deliciously perfect, Isabela too, Sera too, Cassandra too, Anders is right, 100%, Fiona is dumb, Aliastair is diposable and useless, Flemeth and Solas should rule the multiverse and so on. Not once I had a hard time deciding about this. However it is perfectly normal for people who have different morals/ideals/goals/values to think, rethink or even obsessively think about Thedas matters. So again, it is not the game that decides, it is the players, the game portraying things in complex terms is not about making things in shades of gray but allowing for different people to take different approaches about how the see Thedas. Solas is The Lord God Almighty in All His Perfection, period (for me).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 25, 2017 20:50:52 GMT
Yes, but there are two aspects to pride as in fact when the word "Solas" is translated. There is pride in simply regarding yourself as superior to everyone else (which they are guilty of to some extent) but they are not the only ones. Then there is pride as in "standing tall", not allowing yourself to be oppressed by others, refusing to submit. This is the positive side of Dalish pride and something that Sera ought to respect. However, the writers have ignored this aspect of Dalish pride to a large extent and concentrated on the negative side. Solas also says to a non-friend Dalish that the Dalish think themselves as perfect because they think themselves the sole keepers of elven lore. Which again, I think ignores just why preserving the lore is so important to them because they don't just want to be a group of humans with pointed ears with no culture of their own. The best defence that a Dalish is allowed to make of these accusations is near the beginning when you can respond to Solas that "at least we're trying."
To my mind, Sera should take a long hard look at herself when she talks about Pride Cookies because when you refuse to even listen or attempt to appreciate the other person's perspective that is in itself a form of pride as in being absolutely certain that you are in the right. So as with Solas and his criticism of the Dalish, with Sera it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
The issue on why the Dalish look down on city elves is something that seems to have shifted somewhat since DAO. Back then it was the fact that they were willing to remain in the cities being oppressed. The only reason "we are the last of the elvhen" is that "never again will we submit". If a city elf left the alienage and asked to join the Dalish, they always accepted them. They were keeping the culture alive not just out of nostalgia but because of the hope that one day they would once again have a homeland, which they would then share with their city elf cousins. They even admitted that may be the city elves will be able to teach them how to understand their human neighbours better so they can have a lasting peace.
Then in Masked Empire we have the Keeper saying that "I have no people in the alienages" and that they are "poor cousins, lost to us forever", in direct contradiction to what was said in DAO. To emphasise this the Keeper even says that "some clans might accept a few of them to strengthen their numbers, or even out of misguided pity, but they are not our people". Which is a clear indication that the writing team decided that the Dalish were only going to be allowed to have the negative type of pride in the future, probably so that, as with the clan in Masked Empire, if they decided to sacrifice them to the plot, nobody will mind very much. |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 25, 2017 20:58:34 GMT
To my mind, Sera should take a long hard look at herself when she talks about Pride Cookies because when you refuse to even listen or attempt to appreciate the other person's perspective that is in itself a form of pride as in being absolutely certain that you are in the right. So as with Solas and his criticism of the Dalish, with Sera it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I don't think anyone would describe Sera as a fully evolved person.  But she's getting there. A Lavellan Inquisitor can, with effort and a willingness to overlook, open Sera's eyes a little to her own prejudices. |
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 25, 2017 21:00:30 GMT
As far as the Mage/Templar stuff goes, Bioware set out to create a situation where the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children for belonging to a particular group was at least arguably justified. They designed the facts of this fictional world for that purpose, they're not something that occurred organically. Maybe that's interesting and nuanced but to me its also rather distasteful.
In particular it seems like they pushed the "exploding kittens" side of mages, particularly in DA2, in order to give justification for Templar atrocities. Which I find particularly disappointing because the "abuse of power" theme is more interesting, and more of a natural outgrowth of existing speculative ficton themes, and I think it got rather lost and overshadowed seemingly because it couldn't take Bioware to a point where Templars killing children was OK. But DAI seemed to place markedly less emphasis on mages as exploding kittens, and Tevinter offers a good opportunity to explore abuse of power so I'm hopeful the debate will go somewhere more interesting.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 25, 2017 21:08:54 GMT
As far as the Mage/Templar stuff goes, Bioware set out to create a situation where the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children for belonging to a particular group was at least arguably justified. They designed the facts of this fictional world for that purpose, they're not something that occurred organically. Maybe that's interesting and nuanced but to me its also rather distasteful. In particular it seems like they pushed the "exploding kittens" side of mages, particularly in DA2, in order to give justification for Templar atrocities. Which I find particularly disappointing because the "abuse of power" theme is more interesting, and more of a natural outgrowth of existing speculative ficton themes, and I think it got rather lost and overshadowed seemingly because it couldn't take Bioware to a point where Templars killing children was OK. But DAI seemed to place markedly less emphasis on mages as exploding kittens, and Tevinter offers a good opportunity to explore abuse of power so I'm hopeful the debate will go somewhere more interesting. I go back and forth on this. Some days I'm as disgusted as you about the contrived situations for polemic motives. Other days I'm grateful for any morsel of moral stance or examination of societal issues, in a dumpster fire of nonsense and trivia that's the rest of entertainment media. I agree that the "abuse of power" aspect of the Mage/Templar situation is the most interesting, but Bioware does examine that issue over and over and over again, in many different contexts. Maybe they felt it would be more balanced, with the series considered as a whole, to downplay that aspect in one corner, because they played it up so much in another? |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 25, 2017 21:12:28 GMT
How is a person able to see their own prejudices when the other person can't even discuss their culture without giving offence and in fact is forced to reject it or suffer rejection herself?
This isn't just a problem with Sera. You are never allowed to explain to Dorian why his views on slavery are so abhorrent to a Dalish elf (yet apparently Sera can raise the issue without causing Dorian offence). You cannot counter Cassandra asking you why you can't add the Maker to your list of gods by pointing out it is the Chantry who have the problem with you having your own gods. Much of the game you have to put up with people criticising Dalish culture or Dalish attitudes, without ever being allowed to make a defence. The most you are ever able to do is say that it is just something that your clan don't do and then accept the explanation that all clans are different, so typical Dalish culture is reduced to simply that one aspect of negative pride.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 23:16:01 GMT
I was using those positions as fandom examples, not necessarily that I agree with them. My own take on Loghain Mac Tir is that while he is unmistakably a villain, I can still sympathize and mourn the hero he used to be.
The Conclave is completely on Solas' head, no question. But why do so many believe him about creating, and then wanting to tear down the Veil? Because he told us? I know what you're thinking, "why else would Solas paint himself in the worst possible light?" Aside from guilt and a possible desire to want to be stopped, maybe it's his Zero Approval Gambit? That his actual plan is something completely different?
Have you ever read Patrick Weekes' own fantasy series Rogues of the Republic (The Palace Job, The Prophecy Con, The Paladin Caper)? If not, I would best describe it as Firefly and Leverage in Discworld. The books are filled with so many twists and turns you have to read the whole series at least twice to get the whole picture. Plus, one of Patrick's latest tweets is that he (and I'm paraphrasing here) "likes to not so much fool the audience as give them enough to fool themselves". Whether or not he is successful, we shall see...
My point was less on Bioware intended (although that certainly counts), but rather how many Mage fans dismiss the internal reality of the Dragon Age universe. They focus so much on the wish fulfillment of super powers that they ignore the constant threat of possession or that simply getting angry can inadvertently set someone on fire. It's like when I compared DA magic to mental health issues; magic can represent wondrous creative inspiration, while Abominations are like bi-polar mania or schizophrenia, and Tranquility can be the drugs that calm and balance you but deaden that creative spark. I don't make this comparison lightly; many people in my family are bi-polar, and I myself suffer bouts of chronic depression. So no, Mages deserve and need compassion, but they also need help. Speaking from experience, isolating yourself only works so long before you need people who don't have the same conditions you do, and can offer viable alternatives. Can they go too far? Of course. But just like the family, friends, and medical professionals that want to help, there are also Templars who genuinely want to help Mages.
Then there are matters of sheer pragmatism; when you ask Mage fans who will protect normals when a Mage goes bad without Templars, they usually say (when they admit that Mages are capable of wrongdoing at all), "we will". They ignore the inconvenience that DA Mages can't teleport, or that with a 1 to 1000 Mage/Normal ratio, there simply aren't enough hypothetical Psi-Cops to get there in time. Or even without violence, how about the private sector? With completely free and unregulated Mages, one Mage could do the work of 20 people, putting them out of work and starving their families.
Look, I love Mages and magic, I love reading them and playing as them. In an ideal setting, magic would be open to everyone rather than a genetic recessive. But that's not the story Bioware is telling, nor is it the internal rules and world building we have to deal with. I recognize that.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2017 23:27:48 GMT
As far as the Mage/Templar stuff goes, Bioware set out to create a situation where the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children for belonging to a particular group was at least arguably justified. They designed the facts of this fictional world for that purpose, they're not something that occurred organically. Maybe that's interesting and nuanced but to me its also rather distasteful. In particular it seems like they pushed the "exploding kittens" side of mages, particularly in DA2, in order to give justification for Templar atrocities. Which I find particularly disappointing because the "abuse of power" theme is more interesting, and more of a natural outgrowth of existing speculative ficton themes, and I think it got rather lost and overshadowed seemingly because it couldn't take Bioware to a point where Templars killing children was OK. But DAI seemed to place markedly less emphasis on mages as exploding kittens, and Tevinter offers a good opportunity to explore abuse of power so I'm hopeful the debate will go somewhere more interesting. Pretty sure they didn't mean to imply that it OK, maybe just a necessary evil. Sometimes there are no heroes or villains, sometimes there only survivors. This is another problem with Mage fans: they always assume that they would be in the positions of the Mages, rather than just a normal human. Do you honestly think that if some pissed off Mage was throwing fire and lightning at you and not listening to cries to stop, and you had no means of escape, that you would have the presence of mind to use *only* non lethal force? That such force would even be enough? |
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Post by tigress on Jan 25, 2017 23:33:49 GMT
You're right - most people will choose a side, or at least attempt to. Ambiguity is not a comfortable place for most of us and it's human nature to attempt to turn gray into black or white. I think that's part of the success of the franchise. In real life, while most strive to bring order to the chaos around them (finding the black or white in the gray), we are faced with the consequences of our decisions and some of those weigh heavily on us. In the world of Dragon Age, we can do the same thing but without fear of the repercussions - so, we do what comes naturally in a "safe zone" so it's really no wonder that we do this. What makes great writing is that both sides can feel "right". That's NOT easy to do and yet BioWare has pulled this off through 3 games. Which is exactly why I keep coming back. |
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 26, 2017 1:09:11 GMT
I was using those positions as fandom examples, not necessarily that I agree with them. My own take on Loghain Mac Tir is that while he is unmistakably a villain, I can still sympathize and mourn the hero he used to be. The Conclave is completely on Solas' head, no question. But why do so many believe him about creating, and then wanting to tear down the Veil? Because he told us? I know what you're thinking, "why else would Solas paint himself in the worst possible light?" Aside from guilt and a possible desire to want to be stopped, maybe it's his Zero Approval Gambit? That his actual plan is something completely different? Have you ever read Patrick Weekes' own fantasy series Rogues of the Republic ( The Palace Job, The Prophecy Con, The Paladin Caper)? If not, I would best describe it as Firefly and Leverage in Discworld. The books are filled with so many twists and turns you have to read the whole series at least twice to get the whole picture. Plus, one of Patrick's latest tweets is that he (and I'm paraphrasing here) "likes to not so much fool the audience as give them enough to fool themselves". Whether or not he is successful, we shall see... My point was less on Bioware intended (although that certainly counts), but rather how many Mage fans dismiss the internal reality of the Dragon Age universe. They focus so much on the wish fulfillment of super powers that they ignore the constant threat of possession or that simply getting angry can inadvertently set someone on fire. It's like when I compared DA magic to mental health issues; magic can represent wondrous creative inspiration, while Abominations are like bi-polar mania or schizophrenia, and Tranquility can be the drugs that calm and balance you but deaden that creative spark. I don't make this comparison lightly; many people in my family are bi-polar, and I myself suffer bouts of chronic depression. So no, Mages deserve and need compassion, but they also need help. Speaking from experience, isolating yourself only works so long before you need people who don't have the same conditions you do, and can offer viable alternatives. Can they go too far? Of course. But just like the family, friends, and medical professionals that want to help, there are also Templars who genuinely want to help Mages.
Then there are matters of sheer pragmatism; when you ask Mage fans who will protect normals when a Mage goes bad without Templars, they usually say (when they admit that Mages are capable of wrongdoing at all), "we will". They ignore the inconvenience that DA Mages can't teleport, or that with a 1 to 1000 Mage/Normal ratio, there simply aren't enough hypothetical Psi-Cops to get there in time. Or even without violence, how about the private sector? With completely free and unregulated Mages, one Mage could do the work of 20 people, putting them out of work and starving their families. Look, I love Mages and magic, I love reading them and playing as them. In an ideal setting, magic would be open to everyone rather than a genetic recessive. But that's not the story Bioware is telling, nor is it the internal rules and world building we have to deal with. I recognize that. You don't seem to see that you are doing the very same thing here that you accuse others of doing. You pretend that you can get into the head of every "mage fan" out there and divine their (our) motives and reasons, and assume that they (we) are too blind to see the truth. Do shades of gray not apply to people you disagree with? For my part, I absolutely do not dismiss the internal reality of the DA universe (which parts do you imagine I am dismissing, specifically? I mean, since you already know everything that I, as a "mage fan," think about this issue) and suggesting that I only support them due to wish fulfillment fantasies is insulting, quite frankly. I support an overhaul (not complete dismantling) of the circle system because I do not think that innocent people deserve to be treated like criminals simply due to a circumstance of birth. Comparing magic to mental health makes no sense, and to suggest that tranquility simply deadens the "creative spark?" Perhaps you are dismissing the internal reality of the DA universe. Tranquil are completely emotionless, not just un-creative, and tranquility has been used for years as a "precaution" or even a political punishment leveled against mages who are perceived to be weak, or who piss off the wrong person. Would you advocate giving "deadening" mental illness drugs to people who have not actually shown any sign of mental illness? Because that seems to be the parallel you are drawing here. I wonder whether you would still feel this way about mages if the threat of possession were completely nullified? I mean, the Avvar know how to reverse possession in at least some cases, so this could be an issue that you will have to contend with as the series progresses. To address the actual point of the thread: yes, I agree that some DA fans want to see the world and/or the fandom in black and white rather than shades of gray, but (in this thread at least) you are also one of the people doing it. |
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 1:23:10 GMT
Honestly I don't think Dragon Age in particular and BioWare in general deserve the praise for the "gray" morality their worlds get. Most of the conflicts boil down to oft repeated issues that I'm getting increasingly less tolerant of.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 26, 2017 2:28:44 GMT
[...] My point was less on Bioware intended (although that certainly counts), but rather how many Mage fans dismiss the internal reality of the Dragon Age universe. They focus so much on the wish fulfillment of super powers that they ignore the constant threat of possession or that simply getting angry can inadvertently set someone on fire. It's like when I compared DA magic to mental health issues; magic can represent wondrous creative inspiration, while Abominations are like bi-polar mania or schizophrenia, and Tranquility can be the drugs that calm and balance you but deaden that creative spark. I don't make this comparison lightly; many people in my family are bi-polar, and I myself suffer bouts of chronic depression. So no, Mages deserve and need compassion, but they also need help. Speaking from experience, isolating yourself only works so long before you need people who don't have the same conditions you do, and can offer viable alternatives. Can they go too far? Of course. But just like the family, friends, and medical professionals that want to help, there are also Templars who genuinely want to help Mages. Then there are matters of sheer pragmatism; when you ask Mage fans who will protect normals when a Mage goes bad without Templars, they usually say (when they admit that Mages are capable of wrongdoing at all), "we will". They ignore the inconvenience that DA Mages can't teleport, or that with a 1 to 1000 Mage/Normal ratio, there simply aren't enough hypothetical Psi-Cops to get there in time. Or even without violence, how about the private sector? With completely free and unregulated Mages, one Mage could do the work of 20 people, putting them out of work and starving their families. Look, I love Mages and magic, I love reading them and playing as them. In an ideal setting, magic would be open to everyone rather than a genetic recessive. But that's not the story Bioware is telling, nor is it the internal rules and world building we have to deal with. I recognize that. 1. Mages aren't mentally ill; 2. Templars are not medical professors nor nurses, and not capable to "help", if this help not about the tranquility or kill; 3. Tranquility is not a drug... or something, that can help. But not bad, I already read even that the tranquils are like dwarves... so, I don't surprised. They don't need "help", if the help not about to learn their abilities. They are capable to wrongdoing, crimes and they are responsible for this. Just as everyone. And yes, they are stronger and more dangerous, because of their abilities. These people don't suffer by their abilities (the mage, who suffer by his/her ability, really need help, yes, as Feynriel, for example. But this help is not the tranquility, rather some experienced mages, who can help to master the ability). So these people rather suffer by captivity. They need privacy. Life. These are not exist in the Circle. The Circles are a tower, a closed building, literally prison. In such a place they can really go crazy, and/or became unstable. In this state they much more likely to accept an offer of a demon. This is why need schools, not prisons. And need an effective police (Seekers, Templars –without lyrium!– MAGES!), and registration (this all already exist). They have morality and responsibility, just as everyone else. So, can control themselves. If the accidents would be so frequently, Thedas would no longer exist already. I think this is a very badly written problem. |
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 2:35:35 GMT
there have got to be other threads for re-hashing mages vs templars
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 26, 2017 2:50:37 GMT
there have got to be other threads for re-hashing mages vs templars Maybe, but the OP is the one that brought it up in the first place. |
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 26, 2017 2:56:56 GMT
Another group that large portions of the fandom tend to whitewash are the Elves. Did Inquisition vilify the Dalish too much? Probably, but that was most likely in response to fans who demand that Elves be innocent victims in everything. You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. In fact, the only perfect, innocent victims in Origins are the Couslands, to the point where their antagonist, Howe, is a one-dimensional caricature; absolutely no one thought the Dalish elves or the Denerim elves were perfect. People have asked for more nuance for a while now. Wanting three-dimensional depictions of groups, instead of one-dimensional portrayals, isn't remotely the same as wanting the elves to be innocent of everything. What's worse are the complaints that Bioware are wrong for not following the Tolkein model; inherently wise, magical and beautiful immortals who are better that anyone at everything, for no other reason than being Elves. Tolkien elves, being older than the younger races, simply have experience on their side. They aren't perfect, and most people who think they are perfect have never read the books and don't understand the lore behind them. Paying homage to your influences is one thing, but in the end the Elvenhan have as much in common with the Noldor, the Kal'dorei, and the Drow as they do with the Keebler Elves . Regardless of what came before, every story can and must stand on it's own. Plus, by idealizing the DA Elves to that extent, you cheapen their unique story and rob them of agency as three dimensional people in their own right. Look, I'm not saying you don't have the right to enjoy what you enjoy, but we all knew the kind of tale Dragon Age was telling from the beginning. Trying to insist the franchise should be more Black and White is like going to a Chinese restaurant and complaining that there is no pasta . If you think people are asking for Dragon Age to be more black and white because they asked for more depth and nuance to be given to non-Andrastian groups, you really don't get the actual criticisms that are being made. |
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 26, 2017 3:28:57 GMT
C'mon now, you can't write an essay about the fandom twisting things to their desires and not mention some Solasmancers forgiving Solas for seeking a mass extinction event. The jury is in, Solas is a war criminal in the making, of the highest order. The very fact that he's willing to pursue this path paints him as willing to do evil, regardless of his motives. If we can't agree that mass extinction is evil, regardless of motive, we're just not going to have any common ground for discussion. This is probably a great time to bring up that how redeemable he is depends entirely on his actions in the next game. Someone can plan a horrible act, but not follow through if convinced not to. Are they evil? Of course, I fully expect Solas to do some things in the next game that aren't excusable, not just plan to do them, but I thought I should say that. It's also worth noting that we still don't know exactly what will happen if the veil is lifted. It might not even be "mass extinction" as we imagine it. I don't know, I just find him an interesting villain even if I'm going to fight to stop him. How is a person able to see their own prejudices when the other person can't even discuss their culture without giving offence and in fact is forced to reject it or suffer rejection herself? This isn't just a problem with Sera. You are never allowed to explain to Dorian why his views on slavery are so abhorrent to a Dalish elf (yet apparently Sera can raise the issue without causing Dorian offence). You cannot counter Cassandra asking you why you can't add the Maker to your list of gods by pointing out it is the Chantry who have the problem with you having your own gods. Much of the game you have to put up with people criticising Dalish culture or Dalish attitudes, without ever being allowed to make a defence. The most you are ever able to do is say that it is just something that your clan don't do and then accept the explanation that all clans are different, so typical Dalish culture is reduced to simply that one aspect of negative pride. This is, sadly, more of a problem with limited roleplaying than anything else. Bioware, especially in DA:I (or maybe it's just my memory because I played it last) is full of arguments you're either not allowed to win, or barely allowed to even participate in. I think Bioware is fully capable of crafting some well-written arguments that a protagonist could use, and further points that branch off of the initial stance you take, but for whatever reason they chose not to do that. In future games, I'd really like this to be done better if we have companions we can disagree with a lot. It wasn't as much of an issue in Mass Effect since people were on the same page about things a lot of the time. |
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. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we have all known from the beginning that Dragon Age is a dark, adult fantasy filled with complex and deeply flawed characters, and no easy answers. Yet huge portions of the fandom continuously try to place Black and White definitions on Grey story lines. They idealize one group and demonize another, completely ignoring the shades and nuance of each. Alternatively, they associate the wrong connections of what something is supposed to represent, even when writers have explicitly stated what they meant 
. Don't get me wrong, everyone is going to have their own interpretation, and not everyone will agree. But there's a fine line between liking or not liking the story you have been given, and openly twisting and/or ignoring it to conform to your "correct" vision. Just to be clear, this is specifically about certain Fan reactions and not the actual stories, as anyone can cherry pick whatever plot point best suits their argument. 
? No history or context, no nuance or development. It can be just as bad when we have characters that the player can canonically help change and possibly find redemption, like Isabella and Blackwall, but some players still paint them as irredeemable. Or Solas, for whom the jury is still out. Because the Dread Wolf (or Patrick Weekes, for that matter) has never lied about his intentions 
. Being able to shoot fire and control minds is NOT the same as simply having different skin color, sexual orientation, or other such. David Gaider (a gay man, remember?) specifically created the Circle story line because in traditional Dungeons & Dragons games, Mages simply cast Charm Person to get people to obey them with impunity. Even without the innate power discrepancies, Mages in Thedas always risk demonic possession. Mage fans are so hung up on what they want them to represent, that they completely ignore the in-universe reality Mages and Normals face. But who cares about regular people right? They're not special 
. Another reason I have grown to dislike the Mages as X-Men approach, as it doesn't combat prejudice so much as reinforce it; They're just jealous of us because we really are better than they are. Personally, I consume fantasy to explore what does not, cannot exist. Using it for no more than window dressing of real world issues holds little interest to me. If you want to talk about racism or homophobia, be honest enough to talk about actual homophobia or racism. If Mages must use real world issues as crutch storytelling, I would prefer they focus on things like gun control and mental health. Otherwise, keep the fantasy in dark fantasy. 
. Regardless of what came before, every story can and must stand on it's own. Plus, by idealizing the DA Elves to that extent, you cheapen their unique story and rob them of agency as three dimensional people in their own right. 
) they gave the elves. No group in Theadas is just good or just bad. To stay with my example: I love the Dalish, but there are very single minded groups and individuals among them like in any other culture, which makes sense. I always thought, the Tolkien elves are a bit too perfect.
)
