lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 27, 2017 10:43:42 GMT
Oh, I'm sure it's not intentional racism. It's the subconscious sort, that stems more from a lack of care and respect than active malice. Now that I do agree with you. Unintentional racism does occur like when I watched Disney's Pocahontas (it was a sort of reverse racism for Native Americans) or when I did a project on censored cartoons Disney tries to hide like "Coal Black and de Sebbin Dwarves". I can't say if Bioware is as guilty as that, but I do believe they overcompensate when a fanbase is leaning too far to one side. Which makes the treatment of the Dalish peculiar because it's not as if an overwhelming number of people voiced that they liked the Dalish. There was a lot of vitriol against the Dalish ever since Origins. The depictions of the Dalish in Dragon Age II weren't exactly pleasant, and a lot of people criticized Merrill over issues that weren't clearly explained in-game (there was a lot of negative comments about how she didn't make a distinction between Spirits and Demons, even though Anders' discussions with her address that had to do with religious differences; there were some very negative comments about her construction of the Eluvian, but Gaider clarified that she was building it from her own research). Really, if Bioware was looking to overcompensate the way they did in response to people saying Leliana was anti-mage in DAII's Faith or the criticisms against Giselle over her Dorian comments, making things even more negative is a very strange way to go about it because it's in complete opposition to what they did with Andrastian characters and institutions (even Alistair's pro-templar, anti-Chantry comments were rectonned and a much more positive emphasis was made in DAII and Asunder about the Chantry).
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 11:46:54 GMT
Which makes the treatment of the Dalish peculiar because it's not as if an overwhelming number of people voiced that they liked the Dalish. There was a lot of vitriol against the Dalish ever since Origins. The depictions of the Dalish in Dragon Age II weren't exactly pleasant, and a lot of people criticized Merrill over issues that weren't clearly explained in-game (there was a lot of negative comments about how she didn't make a distinction between Spirits and Demons, even though Anders' discussions with her address that had to do with religious differences; there were some very negative comments about her construction of the Eluvian, but Gaider clarified that she was building it from her own research). Really, if Bioware was looking to overcompensate the way they did in response to people saying Leliana was anti-mage in DAII's Faith or the criticisms against Giselle over her Dorian comments, making things even more negative is a very strange way to go about it because it's in complete opposition to what they did with Andrastian characters and institutions (even Alistair's pro-templar, anti-Chantry comments were rectonned and a much more positive emphasis was made in DAII and Asunder about the Chantry). Good point! It points you toward what was important for Bioware: The decisions made in-game when playing DA:O. Remember that DA:O needed a connection to the BW servers in order to play. So Bioware was able to collect EVERY in-game decision made by EVERY player. As I posted above, BW wanted the important decisions to require emotional involvement, which means that such decisions cannot be made solely by logic. They expected that in such a case the players would decide close to random, meaning equal chances for both possible paths. Say, 50% of the players decide to sacrifice Zathrian and the spirit, 50% to kill the elves. The same with the Circle: 50% (or close) will decide to save the mages, 50% to kill them. My guess is that when BW started to receive data about player`s decisions, those looked very different, let`s say 90% decided to sacrifice Zathrian and to save the mages. Which meant that Bioware failed to make the quests undecidable by logic - meaning to find out "the best possible outcome". LIke it was possible for DA:A to save both Amaranthine and Vigil Keep if the Warden made every possible upgrade for the keep. Why it matter so much for BW to make these in-game decisions "hard"? Because you will be emotionally involved if you cannot decide rationally. If there is no best option. And emotional involvement means immersion and investment. You simply like the game more if you`re involved emotionally compared with a distant, rational play. Which of course means more "awesome" reviews and opinions from players, and MORE GAMES SOLD. So BW altered the formula starting with DA2.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 27, 2017 18:29:02 GMT
I most specifically did not have to log onto the BW servers in order to play DA:O. Initially none of my decisions in game would have been recorded by the Developers so my input would not have been taken into consideration. In any case I really don't see why the fact that the majority of people decided to sacrifice Zathrian but save the elves should factor into how the lore treats certain factions.
I also find it annoying if they do respond to player criticism of certain character's views by making them do an entire about face in the next game. It came as a surprise in DA2 for Sister Nightingale to speak so negatively of mages but she was after all only passing on the views of the Divine, who was apparently planning on an Exalted March if the situation didn't resolve itself. Now the fact that the Exalted March DLC never came to pass should not have changed the views of both Divine Justinia and Leliana so drastically but in fact it would seem that was the case. In turns out (in Asunder) that Justinia had been authorising dangerous magical research in secret and completely unmonitored. She was very much sympathetic to the mages, even though Fiona was heard to state "F*** the Divine" and then in DAI Leliana was totally pro-mage freedom, advocating having no controls on them whatsoever. This is irritating when you look back to her comments in DA2, which would suggest she felt that there did need to be at least some policing of the mages of Thedas by someone independent of the mages themselves.
What is annoying about the Dalish issue is that there is no real balance in the depiction of them and they excuse this in game on the grounds that there is no "typical" Dalish clan anymore. So apparently what we were led to believe in DAO was pretty much a typical Dalish clan in the Warden origin was in fact nothing of the sort. Zathrian's clan was pretty much in keeping with the model they had set up in the Dalish Warden origin but apparently that was by pure chance. What we were told by the shopkeeper in the City Elf origin also seemed to be in keeping with the general idea, but again apparently his experience was pure luck.
Then in DAI we have Solas and Sera being highly critical of the Dalish on the basis of what must be very limited experience of them, yet they are allowed to condemn an entire culture on the basis of this. If Lavellan takes issue with them or anyone else over this, they are told that their clan is unusual or exceptional and that the clans are growing apart so that is why their experience of the culture is different. So it is impossible for them to make a defence of their own culture as a people.
To my mind, if you have established lore about a certain group then you should keep to it, so that people who like to play that group can feel they can role play the character effectively. The emotional aspect should come from the revelations about ancient elves, which is fair enough because the Dalish have always admitted that their knowledge is incomplete, not from throwing in new aspects of the Dalish themselves that are out of place with the lore that was previously stated about them by the Dalish in game.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 19:04:24 GMT
<abbr>This is weird, my post disappeared...
I started to play DA:O in 2009, soon after the release. My version was a DVD one, for PC. It was required to log in in order to activate the game, and also to play, since it came with the Shale DLC and Blood Dragon Armor, both requiring continuous connection to BW servers. When the servers were down, it was impossible to play. Also, starting with DA:O there are the options about "uploading gameplay feedback" and "uploading character profile" available, both being active by default, meaning BW knew and collected data concerning every major game decision. This changed when DA:O UE came out, being possible to play without being logged after the initial activation. </abbr>
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 27, 2017 20:00:22 GMT
I find that very odd because whilst I didn't get the game on its release, it was only around 6 months later. I logged in to register the game and download the Shale DLC and Blood Dragon Armour but thereafter I could dispense with the connection. So even if they were recording the decisions of initial players, that would still make a lot of people not recorded but whose opinions were surely still just as valid?
In any case, if they were trying to balance up decisions based off the fact that, say, most people opted not to annul the Circle but attempted to save all the mages, then they did a pretty poor job in DA2 by making the Templars as extreme as they did and having Meredith call an annulment on the Circle when, as Sebastian pointed out, the culprit for the destruction of the Chantry was standing right there in front of her and even admitted to it. Whilst Kirkwall appeared to be crawling with rogue mages, it was clear these were not Circle Mages since we were constantly told how strict it was meant to be and they were barely allowed out of their rooms. Blood magic was rife in DA2 and then in DAI it disappeared from the scene altogether, despite the fact that one of the main factions we were fighting was a group of Tevinter cultist mages, who came from a country famed for its use of blood magic.
I felt the issues were dealt with in a very even handed way in DAO. If, despite the presentation, people still tended to opt for a particular course of action, like saving the mages or sacrificing Zathrian, may be it is because most people do tend to go for saving as many people as possible and it was clear this was the likely outcome of those two particular decisions. When people are going to die either way, you tend to go for the optimum outcome. If they had really wanted people to go for the opposite decision on a more even 50/50 basis, then there should have been a more obvious downside to taking the former two routes. As it is, they left the role play option for people who wanted to decide differently, whilst keeping the optimum outcome for a certain course of action.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 20:01:30 GMT
To better understand my viewpoint about Bioware collecting data about decisions, starting with DA:O, it`s useful to think about some major decisions in DA:O that BW wanted to be "grey", but probably were far from it. Like the decision to ally with the mages or the templars, the decision to save Connor or Isolde, to ally with the Dalish or the werewolves. In these cases there was a "Best outcome" available - to keep both the mages and templars in good standing, to save both Connor and Isolde, to sacrifice Zathrian, lift the curse and ally with the Dalish. Then there were the dual choices like keeping Alistair or Loghain, choosing Branka/golems or Caridin/Shale and choosing Harrowmont or Bhelen.
By using the character profiles containing all such decisions for every character played, BW has data not only about how players chose in each case (how many players saved the mages, and how many killed them for instance), but to LINK these decisions, like: how many players saved the mages, saved both Connor and Isolde and sacrificed Zathrian. In the end, BW was capable to find out how well the "grey" decision worked overall, and how players were thinking and deciding while playing the game. This information was probably quite useful for DA2. For instance, I don`t remember many "best outcome" options in DA2.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 27, 2017 20:12:15 GMT
To better understand my viewpoint about Bioware collecting data about decisions, starting with DA:O, it`s useful to think about some major decisions in DA:O that BW wanted to be "grey", but probably were far from it. Like the decision to ally with the mages or the templars, the decision to save Connor or Isolde, to ally with the Dalish or the werewolves. In these cases there was a "Best outcome" available - to keep both the mages and templars in good standing, to save both Connor and Isolde, to sacrifice Zathrian, lift the curse and ally with the Dalish. Then there were the dual choices like keeping Alistair or Loghain, choosing Branka/golems or Caridin/Shale and choosing Harrowmont or Bhelen. By using the character profiles containing all such decisions for every character played, BW has data not only about how players chose in each case (how many players saved the mages, and how many killed them for instance), but to LINK these decisions, like: how many players saved the mages, saved both Connor and Isolde and sacrificed Zathrian. In the end, BW was capable to find out how well the "grey" decision worked overall, and how players were thinking and deciding while playing the game. This information was probably quite useful for DA2. For instance, I don`t remember many "best outcome" options in DA2. I remember reading that this is one of the reasons Leandra's death is inevitable in DA2. It was optional at first, but EVERYBODY was opting to go the happy route and save her and it sort of sucked the emotional impact out of the storyline. So they went with the darker, no-hope option. Another "best outcome" situation is preventing your remaining sibling's death, either by leaving them behind when you go on the expedition or by taking Anders with you so he can contact the Grey Wardens. And being able to avoid the fight with Merrill's clan with the right dialogue options. Varric having the option to kill Bartrand or have him institutionalized, that kind of thing.
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Wulfram
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 27, 2017 20:29:51 GMT
I think a lot of the problem with the Dalish is that they are very much intended as subversions, but we've had enough Dragon Age stuff by now that the subversion has essentially turned into its own cliche.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 21:15:33 GMT
gervaise21 I was thinking the same way about saving as many lives as possible to be the main the criteria for those DA:O decisions. It was obvious that if there is a way, the players will find it, even if it`s hidden. I`m not sure about why BW went through much effort to close the door on such best outcome alternatives, but these were much rarer in DA2. I only suspect that EA was behind reading the decision data and greying the decisions, since these were more forced in DA2, and DA:O was probably at least in part developed outside EA`s influence. It`s ok to have grey, emotional decisions in a game, but forcing the story to accommodate them is not the best path in my opinion. vertigomez Those were indeed the most important decisions with alternative options, which could be found by a persistent player. I for instance played first time a rogue Hawke and left Bethany in Kirkwall, to find out that otherwise she could have died/made GW. There were some clues, like Anders being a GW and a healer was a good option for the Deep road expedition. Oh, and I forgot about Leandra`s request just before the expedition concerning Hawke`s sibling. Such decisions were few and less important comparatively with the important ones, which were more grey than in DA:O.
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Post by cooldude on Jan 28, 2017 6:29:51 GMT
I wish Bioware would stop providing players way to avoid difficult decisions in game. I think some choices should just be sad/grim, no matter what you decide. for example, the choice to kill Conner/Isolde or go get the circle mages. I think the only two choices that should of existed in that were the sacrifice Isolde or kill Conner. The circle choice felt like it was there to avoid a hard decision, because it made absolutely no sense to do with the situation presented to you in the story.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 28, 2017 8:57:20 GMT
I wish Bioware would stop providing players way to avoid difficult decisions in game. I think some choices should just be sad/grim, no matter what you decide. for example, the choice to kill Conner/Isolde or go get the circle mages. I think the only two choices that should of existed in that were the sacrifice Isolde or kill Conner. The circle choice felt like it was there to avoid a hard decision, because it made absolutely no sense to do with the situation presented to you in the story. You are right, sometimes there is no way to find an alternative solution and avoid a hard decision. Like the case of Connor vs Isolde. Leaving a dangerous abomination in the castle for days while the Warden travels to the Circle and back in foolish. On the other hand, intentionally eliminating any chance to search for alternative, best outcome solution is equally bad. In both cases this means accommodating the story to fit your preferred decision style instead of using the appropriate solution based on the story. For instance, the solution of convincing Zathrian to sacrifice himself was appropriate for the story, and reachable. After all, he created the curse and he knows how to end it. Hard decisions and clever best outcome solutions are both part of our life; using both in RPG`s only increase immersion. We players became emotionally involved when faced with hard decisions, and also happy and elated when we find a clever solution. So both decision types are important for a RPG. Shaping the story to predominately use one type makes the story less believable, and thus reduce immersion. For instance, Hawke`s passivity during DA2 (almost complete lack of initiative) especially in Act 3 bothered me a lot. But that`s another story...
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Wulfram
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 28, 2017 20:07:50 GMT
In Wicked Hearts the "third option" (actually 4th or so) of getting everyone to make peace was arguably not the one with the best outcome because it didn't really resolve things, which I thought was good.
Though I think the third option with Connor actually makes sense, particularly if you've already been to the circle. I mean, you should really take some extra precautions - like maybe the Warden stays in Redcliffe and just sends someone with a message to the Circle - but the basic concept of getting some help rather than leaping straight to blood magic or killing a kid is sensible.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 28, 2017 20:22:23 GMT
In Wicked Hearts the "third option" (actually 4th or so) of getting everyone to make peace was arguably not the one with the best outcome because it didn't really resolve things, which I thought was good. Though I think the third option with Connor actually makes sense, particularly if you've already been to the circle. I mean, you should really take some extra precautions - like maybe the Warden stays in Redcliffe and just sends someone with a message to the Circle - but the basic concept of getting some help rather than leaping straight to blood magic or killing a kid is sensible. In my opinion, getting the Circle Mages to exorcise Connor should have been like when the Collectors kidnap your crew in Mass Effect 2; take too long, and people die. If you haven't already done The Broken Circle , then you would need to do the following: a)Leave Jowan alone in his cell. Clear out all the undead in the castle, right up until Eamon's room. c)Make a High Persuasion Check to Connor that he can comtrol the Demon. d) Leave at least one Companion behind to help contain the Demon while keeping Connor alive. Alistair and Wynne would be the best choices. Morrigan or Sten... not so much . e)When you get to the Tower, rush through with no side quests. Upon completing the arc, rush straight back to Redcliffe. Ah well, what's done is done. Hopefully Bioware will implement more hard work and sacrifice to get those happy endings in the future.
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Post by cooldude on Jan 29, 2017 9:10:26 GMT
In Wicked Hearts the "third option" (actually 4th or so) of getting everyone to make peace was arguably not the one with the best outcome because it didn't really resolve things, which I thought was good. Though I think the third option with Connor actually makes sense, particularly if you've already been to the circle. I mean, you should really take some extra precautions - like maybe the Warden stays in Redcliffe and just sends someone with a message to the Circle - but the basic concept of getting some help rather than leaping straight to blood magic or killing a kid is sensible. The problem is that the situation is presented to the player as a "time is of the essence" sort of thing. Options like the circle option diminish the sense of urgency.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 9:52:09 GMT
The problem is that the situation is presented to the player as a "time is of the essence" sort of thing. Options like the circle option diminish the sense of urgency. Not to mention that the "sense of urgency" was implemented EXACTLY in the Redcliffe quest before the Connor issue. If the Warden arrives at Redcliffe then leaves before nightfall (doesn`t take part in the undead siege), the village is destroyed. It`s the only such event in DA:O as far as I remember. Quests like this, with at least some kind of built-in time limit would have increased greatly the immersion. As it is, the Warden can arrive at Calenhad Circle, learn about the abominations, leave and do EVERY single quest from act 1, then when (s)he finally returns and does the Circle everything happens exactly the same way as if (s)he would have reached the tower right after leaving Lothering and done the Circle quest immediately. Or the quest about finding Branka: both Bhelen and Harrowmont said that they are able to delay the vote for a few days, BUT the Warden has no real time limit. (S)he is again able to collect Oghren, leave Orzamar, do everything else, leaving the Deep Road quest-line the last. With no negative consequences at all. Not even a comment like "what took so long?" These are immersion-breaking inconsistencies for me.
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