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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2017 3:31:23 GMT
I was using those positions (Loghain) as fandom examples, I know, specifically as an example of how fan's deny the reality of a portrayal for wish fulfillment purposes. My point is that using, " I don't care how horrible the Fereldan occupation was, Loghain was an inhuman monster and you should be ashamed for excusing his sins," as an example doesn't support your thesis. What wish does that fulfill? And here's where that thin line I mentioned comes in. Do fans take that italicized position out of some desire for Loghain to be a hero, or is he just poorly portrayed as the villain he was intended to be? What is the hallmark of a good shades-of-grey portrayal? Half of the fans thinking he's definitely a villain and half of the fans thinking he's definitely a hero? Or most of the fans not being able to put him in either the hero or villain column comfortably? If it's the first case (half vs half, but both certain they are right), how do you tell the difference between that hallmark of a successful portrayal and half the fans misinterpreting the portrayal, willfully or mistakenly, and the other fans getting it right? Wow. That's quite a bit out there. It's true, I can't completely rule it out as a possibility, but I give Patrick Weekes a lot more credit than that. He's not going to pull the rug out from under the fans after all the trouble he went through in Trespasser to set the stage (sorry, mixed metaphor). There will be torches and pitchforks in the streets. And yes, I've read all the Rogues of the Republic novels. Since they start out as caper stories, there's an expectation that something is hidden from the reader. That's how all caper stories go. It's not comparable to the Solas situation. BTW, when I read Icy's dialogue, I hear Solas's voice. PW has a thing for bald, polite, spiritual dudes.Again, I think the OP mage examples don't support you point very well. Your second attempt, in your reply, cut for length from here, was much clearer.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2017 3:35:17 GMT
Another group that large portions of the fandom tend to whitewash are the Elves. Did Inquisition vilify the Dalish too much? Probably, but that was most likely in response to fans who demand that Elves be innocent victims in everything. You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 3:36:19 GMT
You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool. thankfully such nonsense is almost certain to never happen
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 26, 2017 3:36:29 GMT
You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool. Well, it'd certainly be subversive.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 26, 2017 3:37:33 GMT
This is pretty badly off the mark. The main problem Bioware has with its elven storytelling here is that it's racist. While you might be pseudo-correct with the mage issue not corresponding to RL oppressed people, elves most certainly do--this is in fact deliberately in their culture design. As such, the main thrust of criticism against Bioware here is declaring the elves to be complicit in their own oppression, or worse, somehow culpable for it. The elves are oppressed because they lost a war to the humans. That's about it. There is now evidence to show they they weren't the innocent, peaceful people the Dalish thought hey were. That's...normal. As said before, it subverts the Tolkienesque version of elves being all good and wise and champions of all that is fair in the world. They had their own saints and sinners like everyone else. People pointed out that there were two historical accounts about the fall of the Dales, that's it; that isn't the same as saying the elves were "innocent" or "peaceful" (and that's taking into consideration that some people pretended that there was only one historical account - the Chantry's version). As to the modern Dalish, they are still a mixed bag. Some are decent folks willing to trade with the shems and just want to be left alone. Some are no better than xenophobic bandits. And there's plenty that are in-between. Interacting with humans is usually dangerous for the Dalish, which is the main issue with why some clans simply want to be left alone. Plenty of players (and even characters) vilified the Dalish for being apprehensive towards outsiders, which is why some people pointed out that the Dalish are technically criminals under Andrastian law because their religion is outlawed, Andrastian humans attack them when they 'stay too long' in a particular area, some Andrastians threaten them with violence to convert, and templars hunt them down. That doesn't mean they're perfect, that means they have valid reasons for being wary and cautious. I believe this is explained, or at least hinted at, though I'll admit it's not exactly straightforward. Pride Cookies sets Sera in opposition to pride. Who are some of the proudest folk in the known world? The Dalish. Dalish consider themselves the "nobles" of the elves. They claim descent from noble families of the Dales. No, the Dalish don't consider themselves the nobles of the elves. Some of the Dalish are the descendants of certain noble families who governed the Dales and Emerald Knights who founded or co-founded the respective clans. And way too many of them consider city elves like her "flat ears" ie "not REAL elves" and look down on them. That's something pretty much guaranteed to get her back up, even if she herself sees no real differences between humans and elves. What do you mean "too many"? Lanaya doesn't. Marethari doesn't. Zathrian didn't. Varathorn didn't. Elora didn't. Cammen didn't. Gheyna didn't. Athras didn't. Merrill doesn't. Paivel even said that perhaps the Dalish and Alienage elves could learn from one another in a hypothetical elven homeland. Some city elves look down on any elves who leave the alienage as "flat ears" as well, as we know from hahren Sarethia of the Highever alienage: "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." And while some city elves clearly feel this way, I'd say it would be wrong to generalize them.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 26, 2017 3:57:31 GMT
Ultimately I agree with the premise, but wholly disagree with the majority of the examples in the OP.
For all that he may preach in the glories of shades of grey instead of using black and white interpretation, he was unfortunate enough to develop black and white views on the interpretations of certain sects within the fandom. That or he has fallen into the usual pitfall of generalization in assuming that one stance (ex. "Pro-mage" or "Elf Fans") is held by one uniform group that share the same qualities.
Criticism against the lack of an ability for a PC to weigh in on the new Dalish lore is perceived as wishing for Tolkien/whitewashed elves. Stances that claim either alternatives to dealing with or alternative views on abominations/mage-specific problems is perceived as dismissing issues specific to mages entirely.
And I will not even touch the treasure trove of distasteful implications that he tries to bring up with Mages. Though I will say that I find his means of reinforcing his argument to not being very effective.
That being said, I will take a stance defending the player's ability to draw whatever RL comparisons they want. Aside from Bioware very probably actually intentionally using RL problems and inspirations to create a good amount of their content, there is absolutely nothing wrong with people using RL parallels to help them understand, deconstruct and experience the medium that is Dragon Age. If you have an issue with how they seem to rely on the RL parallel in question for much of their forum argument, then you can ask that they perhaps look at the issue from a different angle or try supporting their stance without the parallel.
[If you wish to explore the idea that goes against the stance of formalist criticism, look up "Death of the Author" which deals with many arguments against this mode of formalist thought in literary criticism.]
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 26, 2017 3:57:57 GMT
You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool. So your retort to my post about how people weren't saying that the elves are 'innocent of everything' is to point out that some fans want Solas to succeed in wiping out human civilization so that elves will no longer be oppressed. And how, exactly, does this disprove my comment? A willingness to destroy an existing civilization isn't exactly the best argument to make as proof that people presume that the architects of such an act are "innocent of everything".
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 4:00:44 GMT
jesus Christ I'm fucking tired of people equating Tolkien Elves with perfect angelic beings, Feanor that is all
also Death of the Author is very much overused today and I don't think its really applicable to a series like DA
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Post by xerrai on Jan 26, 2017 4:23:44 GMT
jesus Christ I'm fucking tired of people equating Tolkien Elves with perfect angelic beings, Feanor that is all also Death of the Author is very much overused today and I don't think its really applicable to a series like DA And yet it is still finding itself as mandatory reading/investigation for various English graduate courses, a common topic in several seminars involving various topics concerning forms of media and finds itself being discussed as a point of interest in several meetings for career seekers in various fields. Including videogame design. No seriously, I just came back from a partially depressing class where my English professor downright told the class that the intent for their writing does not matter the moment it leaves their hands/computer. It will matter if the readers want it to matter, but by itself it doesn't. That being said, there are also several debates against/partially against the notion by several student groups on campus (one of them actually utilized Harry Potter's Dumbledore and a relevant subtopic concerning canonicity) who want to discuss the topic. But its still relevant today, and is a point of interests for many forms of artistic expression. Perhaps the use of Death of the Author, the actual essay, is overused, but the idea behind it is still very relevant. Personally I am of the mind that while the reader/pc can essentially perceive the medium however they wish, the word of the author should not be completely ignored at ones whim. But this mostly relies on the premise that the correlation/parallel the user is drawing is merely a tool to help the reader/player understand and explore the medium and not redefine it.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 26, 2017 5:26:04 GMT
Like I said, "some" Mage fans. These comments are a culmination of discussions I've had over years, both online and in real life.
It is not a perfect comparison by any means, I realize that. But it is the closest to my personal life experiences. Certainly more so than simply having a different skin color, religion, and/or sexual orientation.
I haven't played Jaws of Hakkon yet, so I can't comment on what the Avvar do. I would be opposed to completely eliminating possession, though more from a narrative perspective. One of the things that initially attracted to Dragon Age was it's darkness, especially in it's portrayal of magic. I've always hated stories that treated magic as just psionics and/or quantum physics. To me, magic is best when it is mysterious, imaginative, dangerous, doesn't always work the same way twice, and exacts a heavy price for it's power. Mostly, alive. Removing things like possession and such makes it "safe". Without that chaotic, living element, you may as well be using guns.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 26, 2017 5:51:44 GMT
Perhaps you have never met such people, but I have. One such example: when I was playing Dungeons & Dragons with different groups in college, one woman insisted that her High Elven Cleric would always make the correct moral choices, for no other reason than that her character was an Elf. I had other such encounters over the years, but that one sticks out. A fair point. I mentioned it as a possibility. I fully acknowledge that I could be grasping at straws here, but I really hope Patrick Weekes is better than that. Perhaps I should have said Tolkien-lite? Not nearly as many people are familiar with The Silmarillion as The Lord of the Rings. A shame, though in their defense it's not an easy read .
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 26, 2017 6:10:23 GMT
[...] My point was less on Bioware intended (although that certainly counts), but rather how many Mage fans dismiss the internal reality of the Dragon Age universe. They focus so much on the wish fulfillment of super powers that they ignore the constant threat of possession or that simply getting angry can inadvertently set someone on fire. It's like when I compared DA magic to mental health issues; magic can represent wondrous creative inspiration, while Abominations are like bi-polar mania or schizophrenia, and Tranquility can be the drugs that calm and balance you but deaden that creative spark. I don't make this comparison lightly; many people in my family are bi-polar, and I myself suffer bouts of chronic depression. So no, Mages deserve and need compassion, but they also need help. Speaking from experience, isolating yourself only works so long before you need people who don't have the same conditions you do, and can offer viable alternatives. Can they go too far? Of course. But just like the family, friends, and medical professionals that want to help, there are also Templars who genuinely want to help Mages. Then there are matters of sheer pragmatism; when you ask Mage fans who will protect normals when a Mage goes bad without Templars, they usually say (when they admit that Mages are capable of wrongdoing at all), "we will". They ignore the inconvenience that DA Mages can't teleport, or that with a 1 to 1000 Mage/Normal ratio, there simply aren't enough hypothetical Psi-Cops to get there in time. Or even without violence, how about the private sector? With completely free and unregulated Mages, one Mage could do the work of 20 people, putting them out of work and starving their families. Look, I love Mages and magic, I love reading them and playing as them. In an ideal setting, magic would be open to everyone rather than a genetic recessive. But that's not the story Bioware is telling, nor is it the internal rules and world building we have to deal with. I recognize that. 1. Mages aren't mentally ill; 2. Templars are not medical professors nor nurses, and not capable to "help", if this help not about the tranquility or kill; 3. Tranquility is not a drug... or something, that can help. But not bad, I already read even that the tranquils are like dwarves... so, I don't surprised. They don't need "help", if the help not about to learn their abilities. They are capable to wrongdoing, crimes and they are responsible for this. Just as everyone. And yes, they are stronger and more dangerous, because of their abilities. These people don't suffer by their abilities (the mage, who suffer by his/her ability, really need help, yes, as Feynriel, for example. But this help is not the tranquility, rather some experienced mages, who can help to master the ability). So these people rather suffer by captivity. They need privacy. Life. These are not exist in the Circle. The Circles are a tower, a closed building, literally prison. In such a place they can really go crazy, and/or became unstable. In this state they much more likely to accept an offer of a demon. This is why need schools, not prisons. And need an effective police (Seekers, Templars –without lyrium!– MAGES!), and registration (this all already exist). They have morality and responsibility, just as everyone else. So, can control themselves. If the accidents would be so frequently, Thedas would no longer exist already. I think this is a very badly written problem. Once again, I do not support Templars and the Circle system as they are. I do not support a "MEGA HAPPY ENDING" for anyone; there should be good and bad in every possible outcome. That's what truly adult story telling is.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 26, 2017 6:41:03 GMT
This is certainly an opinion. Mine, personally, is that while everything is gray, not everything is the same shade of gray, and greater and lesser evils most certainly exist. For instance, in WW2, the Allies had horrible people and did horrible things, but they were by far the lesser evil compared to the Axis. Since you won't really achieve true moral whiteness, dabbling in darkness to destroy worse threats is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. Which is largely how I feel about Anders. Another group that large portions of the fandom tend to whitewash are the Elves. Did Inquisition vilify the Dalish too much? Probably, but that was most likely in response to fans who demand that Elves be innocent victims in everything. What's worse are the complaints that Bioware are wrong for not following the Tolkein model; inherently wise, magical and beautiful immortals who are better that anyone at everything, for no other reason than being Elves. Paying homage to your influences is one thing, but in the end the Elvenhan have as much in common with the Noldor, the Kal'dorei, and the Drow as they do with the Keebler Elves . Regardless of what came before, every story can and must stand on it's own. Plus, by idealizing the DA Elves to that extent, you cheapen their unique story and rob them of agency as three dimensional people in their own right. This is pretty badly off the mark. The main problem Bioware has with its elven storytelling here is that it's racist. While you might be pseudo-correct with the mage issue not corresponding to RL oppressed people, elves most certainly do--this is in fact deliberately in their culture design. As such, the main thrust of criticism against Bioware here is declaring the elves to be complicit in their own oppression, or worse, somehow culpable for it. The mere depiction and examination of prejudice is not in itself condoning it. If that were the case, no one would ever be able to write anyone doing anything bad . Anyway, I'm pretty certain Bioware didn't mean to imply that the revelations about ancient Arlathan and the Evanaris mean that the Dalish and Alienage Elves deserve to suffer for their ancestor's crimes, just that they were as fallible as everyone else. Why exactly do you think otherwise?
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Post by opuspace on Jan 26, 2017 7:18:03 GMT
The mere depiction and examination of prejudice is not in itself condoning it. If that were the case, no one would ever be able to write anyone doing anything bad . Anyway, I'm pretty certain Bioware didn't mean to imply that the revelations about ancient Arlathan and the Evanaris mean that the Dalish and Alienage Elves deserve to suffer for their ancestor's crimes, just that they were as fallible as everyone else. Why exactly do you think otherwise? If fans were walking away with simply the notion that the elves were just another flawed race, then I'd say Dragon Age succeeded. However, what I've been seeing is a lot of vilification that led towards extreme positions on both sides of the elf debate. I can't speak for other elf fans with the extreme views that you see but I'm also wondering if you have any criticism towards those on the other side. Extremist views are not one-sided and I'd like to see what you think of those who hate the elves to the point of wanting to see them all eliminated. What I've yet to see in the game is criticism by characters towards the Andrastian faith. We can see Dorian and Bull argue back and forth on Tevinter vs the Qun and whose government is worse. We can hear that the gods of old were not what the Dalish thought they were. We can learn that the Wardens are to be approached cautiously for their devotion to stopping the Blight. And yet, no one's made any negative comments towards the Andrastian culture of trying to convert others to believe in the Maker. Somehow, the Maker and Andraste are still untouched when it comes to discussing the appalling actions of their believers.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 26, 2017 7:49:10 GMT
The mere depiction and examination of prejudice is not in itself condoning it. If that were the case, no one would ever be able to write anyone doing anything bad . Anyway, I'm pretty certain Bioware didn't mean to imply that the revelations about ancient Arlathan and the Evanaris mean that the Dalish and Alienage Elves deserve to suffer for their ancestor's crimes, just that they were as fallible as everyone else. Why exactly do you think otherwise? I can't speak for other elf fans with the extreme views that you see but I'm also wondering if you have any criticism towards those on the other side. Extremist views are not one-sided and I'd like to see what you think of those who hate the elves to the point of wanting to see them all eliminated. They're trolls, why take them seriously? If they are complaining that Elves lack originality, it's their own damn fault for walking into a Chinese restaurant and ordering pizza .
Plenty people have criticized the Andrastian faith; Morrigan, Avernus, Aveline, all the Qunari, most Dwarves and Dalish. Maybe not to extent you desire, but how much can you realistically expect when it's still the dominant religion of the continent in a quasi-medieval setting? As far as conversion, the Creators and the Stone are race specific, and it wasn't Sten or the Arishok's role. Tallis sure tried though, and you could not refute her .
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Post by Iakus on Jan 26, 2017 16:07:35 GMT
The mere depiction and examination of prejudice is not in itself condoning it. If that were the case, no one would ever be able to write anyone doing anything bad . Anyway, I'm pretty certain Bioware didn't mean to imply that the revelations about ancient Arlathan and the Evanaris mean that the Dalish and Alienage Elves deserve to suffer for their ancestor's crimes, just that they were as fallible as everyone else. Why exactly do you think otherwise? If fans were walking away with simply the notion that the elves were just another flawed race, then I'd say Dragon Age succeeded. However, what I've been seeing is a lot of vilification that led towards extreme positions on both sides of the elf debate. I can't speak for other elf fans with the extreme views that you see but I'm also wondering if you have any criticism towards those on the other side. Extremist views are not one-sided and I'd like to see what you think of those who hate the elves to the point of wanting to see them all eliminated. What I've yet to see in the game is criticism by characters towards the Andrastian faith. We can see Dorian and Bull argue back and forth on Tevinter vs the Qun and whose government is worse. We can hear that the gods of old were not what the Dalish thought they were. We can learn that the Wardens are to be approached cautiously for their devotion to stopping the Blight. And yet, no one's made any negative comments towards the Andrastian culture of trying to convert others to believe in the Maker. Somehow, the Maker and Andraste are still untouched when it comes to discussing the appalling actions of their believers. Sebastian has a number of debates with Merrill, Anders and even Fenris about the CHantry.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 26, 2017 16:25:16 GMT
You mean the nonexistent fans who never demanded any such thing? Because absolutely no one ever said that the elves were innocent in everything, and absolutely no one ever claimed that the elves should be innocent of everything. Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool. I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. I know that people do, but acting like it's not morally reprehensible from an in-universe perspective is beyond all understanding. Of course, at the end of the day it's all fictional so I'm not going to get worked up about it. But really. Genocide for the glory of one race.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 26, 2017 17:44:48 GMT
Really? "Never" and "absolutely no one"? I've read, with my own eyes, non-sarcastic, non-ironic, non-trolling posts from totally sincere fans who want Solas to succeed, for the shemlen to all die, so that Arlathan can rise again and rejoice in the glory of elves. Because that would be cool. I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. I know that people do, but acting like it's not morally reprehensible from an in-universe perspective is beyond all understanding. Of course, at the end of the day it's all fictional so I'm not going to get worked up about it. But really. Genocide for the glory of one race. Personally, I want to drop the Veil, but to do so in a way that doesn't kill everyone. Maybe it can be introduced gradually.
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Post by opuspace on Jan 26, 2017 17:59:14 GMT
If fans were walking away with simply the notion that the elves were just another flawed race, then I'd say Dragon Age succeeded. However, what I've been seeing is a lot of vilification that led towards extreme positions on both sides of the elf debate. I can't speak for other elf fans with the extreme views that you see but I'm also wondering if you have any criticism towards those on the other side. Extremist views are not one-sided and I'd like to see what you think of those who hate the elves to the point of wanting to see them all eliminated. What I've yet to see in the game is criticism by characters towards the Andrastian faith. We can see Dorian and Bull argue back and forth on Tevinter vs the Qun and whose government is worse. We can hear that the gods of old were not what the Dalish thought they were. We can learn that the Wardens are to be approached cautiously for their devotion to stopping the Blight. And yet, no one's made any negative comments towards the Andrastian culture of trying to convert others to believe in the Maker. Somehow, the Maker and Andraste are still untouched when it comes to discussing the appalling actions of their believers. Sebastian has a number of debates with Merrill, Anders and even Fenris about the CHantry. I'll have to play that then and see if the debates address the flaws.
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Post by opuspace on Jan 26, 2017 18:32:16 GMT
I can't speak for other elf fans with the extreme views that you see but I'm also wondering if you have any criticism towards those on the other side. Extremist views are not one-sided and I'd like to see what you think of those who hate the elves to the point of wanting to see them all eliminated. They're trolls, why take them seriously? If they are complaining that Elves lack originality, it's their own damn fault for walking into a Chinese restaurant and ordering pizza .
Then wouldn't the elf fans who hold such extreme views be trolls as well? What separates them from the ones who are serious? If the elves lack originality, that's on the writers, not the fans for pointing it out. As far as I know, the complaints are towards the caricature portrayal of them as irredeemable pricks instead of showing them as complicated. As for the characters you listed, I'll go check on the dialogue and see for myself on whether the debates do address the flaws of Andrastian faith.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2017 18:58:28 GMT
No seriously, I just came back from a partially depressing class where my English professor downright told the class that the intent for their writing does not matter the moment it leaves their hands/computer. It will matter if the readers want it to matter, but by itself it doesn't. That being said, there are also several debates against/partially against the notion by several student groups on campus (one of them actually utilized Harry Potter's Dumbledore and a relevant subtopic concerning canonicity) who want to discuss the topic. Why is the professor's position on auctorial intent partially depressing? It doesn't mean author's aren't held accountable for what they write -- just ask Salman Rushdie. In fact, I would argue it doesn't say anything at all about readers. It's more about the "right mind," in the Buddhist sense, for a writer. And, I guess, license for professional critics to ignore the writer and their intent so they can make whatever point they want. Readers are free to respond to a work in any way they want, including inferring, or indeed making up out of whole cloth, an intent. Just don't ask a writer to validate it, because that does harm to the writer. As a corollary, two readers arguing that the writer intended A vs. B is pointless. Hmm, so I guess it does say something about readers, but at one remove. EDIT: Maybe this is a little easier to accept. Suppose that we treat the writer as a reader. That levels the playing field, which means a writer's intent is no more or less valid than any reader's response. That's probably a more practical position anyway.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 26, 2017 19:17:34 GMT
The complaint is that there is no real criticism of the Andrastrian faith in DAI. That is what contrasts it so much with the previous two games. In DAO and DA2 we did get both sides of the argument and the perspective of different races and groups about the predominant faith in the Maker. So I had no issue with its depiction in those games. My own view at the end of both was that I was prepared to believe in the Maker but not as depicted by the Chantry and that was okay because no one forced faith in the Chantry on me. I was even able to point out to Sebastian as we prepared to defend the mages in the Gallows, that Andraste would be there waving her torch of freedom with us.
The thing about DAI and its DLC is that they completely undermine all other belief systems, whether they be Dalish, Dwarven or Avvar. They also have Cassandra effectively criticising your lack of open mindedness when you tell her honestly that you worship your own gods and not the Maker, because she asks why you can't make room for one more, when throughout the previous two games and in the lore books it has been the Chantry that prohibits the worship of any god but their own. Whenever assertions about your status - Herald of Andraste, Andraste gave you the mark - are comprehensively disproved, you are not allowed the publicise this to the world and are given trite reasons of faith why it is better not to, not simply by Giselle but even by Hawke. Where are the people supporting your stance? It seems for the writers that the truth only matters about a religion when it is not the Chantry.
Then in JoH Ameriden is praised by other characters for his willingness to embrace faith in Andraste in addition to his own, the Dalish are vilified for their attitude to Drakon and the reason why they might feel that way is totally whitewashed. Of course Andrastrian believers are going to think he was a great hero of their faith, which is why for balance you needed someone able to point out to them that he absolutely was the tyrant that the Dalish made him out to be, regardless of his actions in the 2nd Blight. Instead, because Ameridan regards him as a friend and seems to have no trouble accepting his empire building, the effective criticism is all on the Dalish. Where are the shades of grey? It all seems like a promotion of the Chantry faith at the expense of everyone else. Fair enough for Andrastrian characters in game but not for the writers if they are trying to have a "shades of grey" approach to the issues.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 19:58:38 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't an issue where the writers want there to be a lot of ambiguity
maybe the Dalish are just wrong, full stop
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 26, 2017 20:22:15 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't an issue where the writers want there to be a lot of ambiguity maybe the Dalish are just wrong, full stop Which would be where the racism comes in.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 20:25:00 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't an issue where the writers want there to be a lot of ambiguity maybe the Dalish are just wrong, full stop Which would be where the racism comes in. Well A. the Dalish aren't real so prejudice against them doesn't exist B. Extrapolating fake racism against pixels and 1's and 0's to real life groups is ridiculous
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