inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 26, 2017 20:27:50 GMT
Which would be where the racism comes in. Well A. the Dalish aren't real so prejudice against them doesn't exist B. Extrapolating fake racism against pixels and 1's and 0's to real life groups is ridiculous It'd be nice if that were true. It'd be nice if the Dalish were completely devoid of cultural parallels to anything human, as opposed to having been explicitly based on Jewish and various indigenous cultures in contrast to humanity's Christian Europe. But that's not the world in which we live.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2017 20:32:00 GMT
Well A. the Dalish aren't real so prejudice against them doesn't exist B. Extrapolating fake racism against pixels and 1's and 0's to real life groups is ridiculous It'd be nice if that were true. It'd be nice if the Dalish were completely devoid of cultural parallels to anything human, as opposed to having been explicitly based on Jewish and various indigenous cultures in contrast to humanity's Christian Europe. But that's not the world in which we live. There are some parallels to various irl groups yes, but they are not one to one exchanges
|
|
lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
inherit
581
0
496
lobselvith8
426
August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 26, 2017 23:14:24 GMT
Well A. the Dalish aren't real so prejudice against them doesn't exist B. Extrapolating fake racism against pixels and 1's and 0's to real life groups is ridiculous It'd be nice if that were true. It'd be nice if the Dalish were completely devoid of cultural parallels to anything human, as opposed to having been explicitly based on Jewish and various indigenous cultures in contrast to humanity's Christian Europe. But that's not the world in which we live. Yeah. Former lead writer Gaider did point out that the Dalish were heavily based on Native Americans, and that this applied to Thedas elves as a whole; he mentioned how alienage elves were also influenced by Jewish people and the alienages were influenced by medieval Jewish ghettos. When favoritism comes into play with Andrastian humans (and a religion that is loosely based on Christianity, with developers having made the comparison of Andraste as Jesus meets Joan of Arc), it's hard not to notice how the non-Andrastian groups are treated differently, particularly in light of how developers already made it clear that those groups are based on real world people. Of course, there's also the debate that's been brought up in the past (by folks like Maria Caliban) about whether developers should base their fictional humans on white people and their fictional non-humans on non-white groups (since this is something that appears in Western fiction quite a bit).
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 0:12:16 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't an issue where the writers want there to be a lot of ambiguity maybe the Dalish are just wrong, full stop Then I'd say the writing quality has gotten tedious with the one note vilification. Andrastians thought the Inquisitor was pulled out of the Fade by Andraste, yet they're not being mocked for it. Andrastians thought the d'Amerides were the descendants of Ameridan. They were wrong there. They thought the Maker created the Veil. Wrong there. If Andrastians received the same commentary by teammates about how they keep getting everything wrong, would people start to think of them the way they criticize the Dalish?
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 0:34:26 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't an issue where the writers want there to be a lot of ambiguity maybe the Dalish are just wrong, full stop Then I'd say the writing quality has gotten tedious with the one note vilification. Andrastians thought the Inquisitor was pulled out of the Fade by Andraste, yet they're not being mocked for it. Andrastians thought the d'Amerides were the descendants of Ameridan. They were wrong there. They thought the Maker created the Veil. Wrong there. If Andrastians received the same commentary by teammates about how they keep getting everything wrong, would people start to think of them the way they criticize the Dalish? Well first of all, that's the beauty of a hands off creator, you can always say he was working through whatever took place. Secondly, I'd argue that many of those points you bring are not at all damaging to the core beliefs of Andrastianism
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 0:35:47 GMT
Are people going to seriously entertain the notion that BioWare is covertly supporting racism against irl groups because their fictional amalgamation of cultures is wrong about their religion?
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 1:24:58 GMT
Well first of all, that's the beauty of a hands off creator, you can always say he was working through whatever took place. Secondly, I'd argue that many of those points you bring are not at all damaging to the core beliefs of Andrastianism I'd say that's more conceit of a faith that puts itself above others to the point of forbidding worship of anyone else but theirs. A lot of things can be justified, such as saying the elves got a lot of things right despite their mistakes. In a narrative sense, favoritism of a concept or a character by keeping it above reproach signifies weakness of analytical thinking rather than being correct. It's not about proving Andrastianism wrong but about pointing out similar flaws in the followers of other faiths. Being so quick to write the elves off as wrong but not applying the same critical eye to Andrastian followers often leads to downright hypocrisy. Cassandra trying to proselytize a Lavellan and then turning around to insult Lavellan's gods is rich with missed irony. But if we're going to talk about damaging their faith, it doesn't take much according to what we see at the start of Inquisition. We start off being publicly denounced by Chantry officials because nothing is as they thought it'd be. No matter the Divine candidate, someone's upset because she's not doing things the way they used to, another common trait of adhering to tradition that's similar in flawed reasoning to a Dalish follower. No matter how one spins it, there's morons in every group.
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 1:28:11 GMT
Are people going to seriously entertain the notion that BioWare is covertly supporting racism against irl groups because their fictional amalgamation of cultures is wrong about their religion? Who implied that? I don't believe that was the intent of Bioware to encourage racism. But unintentional racism does occur in media quite frequently. Disney's a hilariously glaring example of that. Biases most definitely occur and I can point out several movies and cartoons that were made with utter seriousness.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 1:33:03 GMT
Are people going to seriously entertain the notion that BioWare is covertly supporting racism against irl groups because their fictional amalgamation of cultures is wrong about their religion? Who implied that? I don't believe that was the intent of Bioware to encourage racism. But unintentional racism does occur in media quite frequently. Disney's a hilariously glaring example of that. Biases most definitely occur and I can point out several movies and cartoons that were made with utter seriousness. People are implying that BioWare is racist in their depiction of the elves, thus by extension the writers are engaging in racist stories, therefore are racist
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 1:38:24 GMT
Who implied that? I don't believe that was the intent of Bioware to encourage racism. But unintentional racism does occur in media quite frequently. Disney's a hilariously glaring example of that. Biases most definitely occur and I can point out several movies and cartoons that were made with utter seriousness. People are implying that BioWare is racist in their depiction of the elves, thus by extension the writers are engaging in racist stories, therefore are racist I don't believe they are being racist, because for one thing, who are they being racist against exactly? The elves are a mix of several minority groups but no single one truly stands out to be clear that there's an agenda. What I do think they're doing is reminiscent of the Geth and Quarian conflict where they're trying to keep people from sympathizing too much with the underdog races to the point of taking it too far. Instead of presenting both sides fairly, they take the portrayal to such an extreme with one side that both sides take on caricatures like the Geth becoming pinnochios and the quarians being treated like morons.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 1:44:00 GMT
People are implying that BioWare is racist in their depiction of the elves, thus by extension the writers are engaging in racist stories, therefore are racist I don't believe they are being racist, because for one thing, who are they being racist against exactly? The elves are a mix of several minority groups but no single one truly stands out to be clear that there's an agenda.
What I do think they're doing is reminiscent of the Geth and Quarian conflict where they're trying to keep people from sympathizing too much with the underdog races to the point of taking it too far. Instead of presenting both sides fairly, they take the portrayal to such an extreme with one side that both sides take on caricatures like the Geth becoming pinnochios and the quarians being treated like morons. my point exactly, yet the accusations come
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 1:54:25 GMT
my point exactly, yet the accusations come Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are).
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 2:00:29 GMT
my point exactly, yet the accusations come Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are). not accusing you in particular, but others in this thread have made their views quite clear
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 2:18:10 GMT
Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are). not accusing you in particular, but others in this thread have made their views quite clear Ah, thank you then for clearing that up. It's been fun chatting with you about it. Thanks for patiently explaining your side to me and listening to mine.
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 3:27:44 GMT
my point exactly, yet the accusations come Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are). It is ironic, isn't it? It just goes to show how insidious racism is.
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 3:32:13 GMT
Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are). It is ironic, isn't it? It just goes to show how insidious racism is. I'm afraid I'm missing it if there's intentional racism behind it.
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 3:37:57 GMT
It is ironic, isn't it? It just goes to show how insidious racism is. I'm afraid I'm missing it if there's intentional racism behind it. Oh, I'm sure it's not intentional racism. It's the subconscious sort, that stems more from a lack of care and respect than active malice.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 3:39:54 GMT
Accusations? I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given you. What I'd prefer is a more mentally engaging portrayal of certain races instead of a lopsided write-off. Accusing Bioware of racism would be too ironic given the lengths they go to accomodate LGBQT groups (as flawed the attempts are). It is ironic, isn't it? It just goes to show how insidious racism is. truly your insight into the secret prejudices of the BioWare writing team is amazing
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 3:42:47 GMT
It is ironic, isn't it? It just goes to show how insidious racism is. truly your insight into the secret prejudices of the BioWare writing team is amazing Not really; it's pretty obvious that they don't think the Jewish/indigenous analogues are worthy of the same care and attention as the European Christian analogues.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 3:49:59 GMT
truly your insight into the secret prejudices of the BioWare writing team is amazing Not really; it's pretty obvious that they don't think the Jewish/indigenous analogues are worthy of the same care and attention as the European Christian analogues. The societies get just as much care and attention, their lore is pretty deeply done and given the direction the series is going we're likely to only get more. You just seem to not like the lore and attention they do get since it doesn't match up with what you wanted it to be. Disappointment on your part with elven lore does not mean BioWare is unconsciously racist
|
|
inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
|
Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 3:52:45 GMT
Not really; it's pretty obvious that they don't think the Jewish/indigenous analogues are worthy of the same care and attention as the European Christian analogues. The societies get just as much care and attention, their lore is pretty deeply done and given the direction the series is going we're likely to only get more. You just seem to not like the lore and attention they do get since it doesn't match up with what you wanted it to be. Disappointment on your part with elven lore does not mean BioWare is unconsciously racist I might have believed you were sincere if you weren't a card-carrying hater of all things Dalish.
|
|
inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 3:58:31 GMT
The societies get just as much care and attention, their lore is pretty deeply done and given the direction the series is going we're likely to only get more. You just seem to not like the lore and attention they do get since it doesn't match up with what you wanted it to be. Disappointment on your part with elven lore does not mean BioWare is unconsciously racist I might have believed you were sincere if you weren't a card-carrying hater of all things Dalish. I mean I won't pretend that I'm a fan of them, but that doesn't mean I sit there and stick my fingers in my ears every time an elf opens their mouth. I can see that their lore got quite a bit of attention in DA:I, especially in the late game and Trespasser. That I derive some pleasure from the anger the new lore reveals in people who have made their personal dislike of me perfectly clear is another matter entirely. If we want to get into an argument over which society got the most attention in the lore I'm not sure how we could arrive at a conclusion short of counting every line of dialogue concerning lore in the game.
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Jan 27, 2017 4:32:39 GMT
I'm afraid I'm missing it if there's intentional racism behind it. Oh, I'm sure it's not intentional racism. It's the subconscious sort, that stems more from a lack of care and respect than active malice. Now that I do agree with you. Unintentional racism does occur like when I watched Disney's Pocahontas (it was a sort of reverse racism for Native Americans) or when I did a project on censored cartoons Disney tries to hide like "Coal Black and de Sebbin Dwarves". I can't say if Bioware is as guilty as that, but I do believe they overcompensate when a fanbase is leaning too far to one side.
|
|
adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
inherit
2913
0
582
adrianbc
330
Jan 20, 2017 10:05:58 GMT
January 2017
adrianbc
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 6:44:46 GMT
About mages and the grey issue:
There are many decisions in DA series concerning mages, and BW wanted those decisions to have a high emotional impact. Deciding easily in favor or against mages won`t do for BW, because they wanted the emotional involvement from the players. Why? Because emotional involvement means also immersion and attachment. Also, BW made it sure that there is no middle ground possible - avoiding the decision. Like in the final of Act3 in DA2. Hawke is not allowed to say: "Well, I`m sitting this out, you guys go ahead and bash yourselves to pulp; I don`t want to be involved." (S)he is forced to act one way or another. BUT after every player have chosen one path she/he will be confronted with the need to explain (her/him)self the decision. And to build up a rational argument in favor of the said decision. This is when cognitive dissonance can occur (a discrepancy between what we have done and what we believe is right). For me, there is no real surprise of why say half of DA fans support the mages and half the templars.
For contrast, let`s use the Star Wars saga. The Jedi are very much like mages from DA universe. They are very powerful, capable of ruling the galaxy, able to influence events and other intelligent beings. BUT they can be attracted to the Dark Side, and became Siths. We all know about Palpatine / Darth Sidious and Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader. Still, since George Lucas has made the decisions for us, there is no arguing about locking up every Jedi and child with Force affinity in towers forever, guarded by anti-jedi. Instead, the Jedi had their Academy...
|
|
adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
inherit
2913
0
582
adrianbc
330
Jan 20, 2017 10:05:58 GMT
January 2017
adrianbc
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 7:26:59 GMT
I do believe they overcompensate when a fanbase is leaning too far to one side. This seems to be the case for most controversial issues/decisions in DA games. Let`s compare the mages vs templars initial approach with the Dalish vs city elves. In DA:O there was a decision to be made concerning the circle (favoring the mages or templars) but no decision about favoring the Dalish vs city elves. So we had responsible mages and blood mages, "good" abominations like Wynne and "bad" ones like Uldred. All were elements designed to "muddle" the decision. But I don`t think it really worked as BW wanted. My guess is that there were more players who saved the mages than those who "annuled" them (I really love these euphemisms - very much in tune with our real world). Why? Probably because by saving the mages the player conserved BOTH groups instead of just one. Especially since in the first PT nobody knew how important these groups will be in the end. Not to mention that Wynne`s "revelation" happened much later. The same about Dalish / city elves. My very first DA character was a Dalish elf - chosen because I wanted an "outsider", and at the end of the intro scene Duncan was definitely human. The Dalish seemed strange but benign, and very much a close family, AND accepting city elves easily. Then BW wanted us to decide between Dalish and werewolves, so we had Zathrian and Swiftrunner. Still, probably most people choose to sacrifice Zathrian, because it would preserve again BOTH groups. So, the decision was again not equal - by sacrificing only Zathrian there was much more to gain than by killing every Dalish. Like the case of killing just the abominations in the Circle and not also the mages. Bioware learned from these mistakes, and ensured that from DA2 onward there was no middle ground possible. But they wanted also a high emotional involvement, so they "muddled" intentionally each and every faction from the DA universe. Their intention probably was to make them more "realistic", since in real world there is no such thing as a perfect nation or faction. But they also created a lot of inconsistencies and overturns. PS This is completely outside this thread, but it`s about something which intrigued me since: In my first attempt to play DA:O, my Dalish elf traveled straight to Brecilian Forest. Then, after attempting to cross the fog (magical barrier) several times, a group of ancient elven spirits appeared and talked to my Dalish, offering clues about how to pass through the fog. Since that first play I`ve never again encountered those elven spirits. Does anyone else experienced this scene? Or knows more about it?
|
|