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Post by mrfixit on Feb 15, 2017 12:37:55 GMT
The Circles do not capable protect the citizens against this "nuclear missiles", as I said before. This is only false sense of security. If anyone capable to handle some power hungry mages, then this is an effective police. I think we're almost talking past each other. I agree with you that Circles aren't optimal solutions and that they are partly responsible for mage extremism. I too think that another mechanism should be applied. It's just that I don't believe Leliana's naively idealistic solution is the best way to go because it doesn't address any underlying issues.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 15, 2017 12:41:11 GMT
Yes, and because of things like Cuban Missile Crisis world powers have signed countless treaties on non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, severely limited the scope of platforms they can be used on, and subjected all signatories to comply with rigorous compliance protocols which permit other countries access to and control over the way these treaties are being adhered to. There's an entire global security infrastructure that was established post-WWII with the express intent to deal not only with WMD but in order to find a way to stop constant warfare (UN, EU, etc.) As for your example of Genghis Khan and Hundred Years' War destroying everything in its path without mages... well it's true. And now think what those people in their medieval mindsets would have done with mages or, while we're at it, nuclear missiles. Exactly! Would have done WITH mages or nuclear missiles. Not BY MAGES. This is a very important distinction. Greed, hunger for power, hunger for violence are a normal occurrence in a medieval world, with or without mages and magic. As the Chantry used mages in every Exalted Marches against the Dales, Tevinter or Qunari. As the Qunari retaliated with their own mages, based on the Chantry`s Circle model, when they were able to find a "role" for Saarebas - probably they just killed every mage before, because they have no "role" in the Qun. All this means that mages were USED as weapons to "help" accomplish "heroic" murders for their masters - the Divine or the Arishok. The Qun view about mages is similar to the Chantry, just more extreme. Our world today has many deadly tools. Every car, plane, train is a weapon. This is why there are training systems in place for each such device, and periodical psychological exams to assess the mental sanity of drivers and pilots. Despite of all that, millions die each year in accidents provoked by careless drivers or pilots. Compared to this, what mages have done in Thedas is just a drop of water. Still, nobody ever imagined a system with imprisoned drivers or pilots in Circles, for the sole benefit of some religious masters.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 15, 2017 12:43:55 GMT
Our world today has many deadly tools. Every car, plane, train is a weapon. This is why there are training systems in place for each such device, and periodical psychological exams to assess the mental sanity of drivers and pilots. Despite of all that, millions die each year in accidents provoked by careless drivers or pilots. Compared to this, what mages has done in Thedas is just a drop of water. Still, nobody ever imagined a system with imprisoned drivers or pilots in Circles, for the sole benefit of some religious masters. Excellent point. So you are for instituting psychological exams to assess mental sanity of mages, I take it? Good good. And if they fail? What do you propose?
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Post by Catilina on Feb 15, 2017 12:45:53 GMT
The Circles do not capable protect the citizens against this "nuclear missiles", as I said before. This is only false sense of security. If anyone capable to handle some power hungry mages, then this is an effective police. I think we're almost talking past each other. I agree with you that Circles aren't ideal solutions. I too think that another mechanism should be applied. It's just that I don't believe Leliana's naively idealistic solution is the best way to go because it doesn't address any underlying issues, Leliana's not naive. Cassandra is more naive and idealistic, the different just that she want the mages in cage, and assumes, that the prison guards will be more gentle. Don't forget, how she disappointed when Varric wasn't capable to betray his best friend... Just because she found Varric a sympathetic guy, she assumed, that he will tell her the truth. She trusted a man who was caught and interrogated. This is normal? Yes, I think, this is very cute ... but very idiot. So: who is naive?
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 15, 2017 12:51:04 GMT
I think we're almost talking past each other. I agree with you that Circles aren't ideal solutions. I too think that another mechanism should be applied. It's just that I don't believe Leliana's naively idealistic solution is the best way to go because it doesn't address any underlying issues, Leliana's not naive. Cassandra is more naive and idealistic, the different just that she want the mages in cage, and assumes, that the prison guards will be more gentle. Don't forget, how she disappointed when Varric wasn't capable to betray his best friend... Just because she found Varric a sympathetic guy, she assumed, that he will tell her the truth. She trusted a man who was caught and interrogated. This is normal? Yes, I think, this is very cute ... but very idiot. So: who is naive? And what is Leliana's plan? Can you tell me? Besides mages governing themselves? Can villagers also govern themselves without noble meddling? Can a baker in Val Royeaux govern himself without any state control? Can he decide not to pay taxes or adhere to some guild regulations enforced by the state? What Leliana proposes, or at least what I could glean from what little the game gave me, is that mages should be their own thing without no one outside having any say on how they run their business. So is Leliana some kind of medieval anarcho-syndicalist?
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Post by Catilina on Feb 15, 2017 13:00:49 GMT
Leliana's not naive. Cassandra is more naive and idealistic, the different just that she want the mages in cage, and assumes, that the prison guards will be more gentle. Don't forget, how she disappointed when Varric wasn't capable to betray his best friend... Just because she found Varric a sympathetic guy, she assumed, that he will tell her the truth. She trusted a man who was caught and interrogated. This is normal? Yes, I think, this is very cute ... but very idiot. So: who is naive? And what is Leliana's plan? Can you tell me? Besides mages governing themselves? Can villagers also govern themselves without noble meddling? Can a baker in Val Royeaux govern himself without any state control? Can he decide not to pay taxes or adhere to some guild regulations enforced by the state? What Leliana proposes, or at least what I could glean from what little the game gave me, is that mages should be their own thing without no one outside having any say on how they run their business. So is Leliana some kind of medieval anarcho-syndicalist? I do not think Leliana gives power to the mages; only freedom. This is not the same. Unfortunately it has not described what was coming exactly, but the Conclave work. Leliana still have army, and she able to use it. I do not suppose that she is an anarchist or a "flower child". She was a spy, she know the Game, and experienced much evil things about mages too. Why much people think, that she is naive? This is ridiculous. Only what we know, that she wants eliminated the Circle-system and treat mages as people. This isn't meant: without control, according my opinion. Oh, yes, every nobles are good ruler, they are born for this cause! No. There are nobles were really idiot and unsuitable. But you're right, the people need law and order. Look: Leliana is a religious leader. She responsible for the souls of his flock. She also have army to maintain the order, but let's leave some responsibility for the secular rulers as well.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 15, 2017 13:33:20 GMT
And what is Leliana's plan? Can you tell me? Besides mages governing themselves? Can villagers also govern themselves without noble meddling? Can a baker in Val Royeaux govern himself without any state control? Can he decide not to pay taxes or adhere to some guild regulations enforced by the state? What Leliana proposes, or at least what I could glean from what little the game gave me, is that mages should be their own thing without no one outside having any say on how they run their business. So is Leliana some kind of medieval anarcho-syndicalist? I do not think Leliana gives power to the mages; only freedom. This is not the same. Unfortunately it has not described what was coming exactly, but the Conclave work. Leliana still have army, and she able to use it. I do not suppose that she is an anarchist or a "flower child". She was a spy, she know the Game, and experienced much evil things about mages too. Why much people think, that she is naive? This is ridiculous. Only what we know, that she wants eliminated the Circle-system and treat mages as people. This isn't meant: without control, according my opinion. Oh, yes, every nobles are good ruler, they are born for this cause! No. There are nobles were really idiot and unsuitable. But you're right, the people need law and order. Look: Leliana is a religious leader. She responsible for the souls of his flock. She also have army to maintain the order, but let's leave some responsibility for the secular rulers as well. We are both fans. We passionately discuss these matters because we love the Dragon Age world. But this is exactly why we can't in essence have a reasoned discussion on the matter: DAI gave us no information to go on. The epilogues only hand-waved all the nitty-gritty of actual governance and asked us to believe that all Leliana had to was to set mages free (with apparently no constraints or guidance) and all would be well. And sure, this is a fictional universe. If the game says all is fine, I guess all is fine. Leliana is exactly the kind of visionary Thedas needed. But if we step away from the epilogues and try to reach a conclusion based on what the actual characters and context tell me, I can't help but feel that Leliana's solution is no solution at all. She simply traded one extreme (quasi-prison-like Circles) for another (absolute freedom and complete lack of oversight of a bunch of X-Men with the added ability to become demons) in hope all would turn out well. That's not how you build a sustainable society. And that's not how you address the justified concerns of the other 99% of Thedosians who, rightly or wrongly, have lived for millennia in almost paranoid fear of magic. The solution to this has to be widely supported and tied into the "institutional infrastructure" of the country. We can't pretend mages are a land unto themselves.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 15, 2017 14:19:42 GMT
I do not think Leliana gives power to the mages; only freedom. This is not the same. Unfortunately it has not described what was coming exactly, but the Conclave work. Leliana still have army, and she able to use it. I do not suppose that she is an anarchist or a "flower child". She was a spy, she know the Game, and experienced much evil things about mages too. Why much people think, that she is naive? This is ridiculous. Only what we know, that she wants eliminated the Circle-system and treat mages as people. This isn't meant: without control, according my opinion. Oh, yes, every nobles are good ruler, they are born for this cause! No. There are nobles were really idiot and unsuitable. But you're right, the people need law and order. Look: Leliana is a religious leader. She responsible for the souls of his flock. She also have army to maintain the order, but let's leave some responsibility for the secular rulers as well. We are both fans. We passionately discuss these matters because we love the Dragon Age world. But this is exactly why we can't in essence have a reasoned discussion on the matter: DAI gave us no information to go on. The epilogues only hand-waved all the nitty-gritty of actual governance and asked us to believe that all Leliana had to was to set mages free (with apparently no constraints or guidance) and all would be well. And sure, this is a fictional universe. If the game says all is fine, I guess all is fine. Leliana is exactly the kind of visionary Thedas needed. But if we step away from the epilogues and try to reach a conclusion based on what the actual characters and context tell me, I can't help but feel that Leliana's solution is no solution at all. She simply traded one extreme (quasi-prison-like Circles) for another (absolute freedom and complete lack of oversight of a bunch of X-Men with the added ability to become demons) in hope all would turn out well. That's not how you build a sustainable society. And that's not how you address the justified concerns of the other 99% of Thedosians who, rightly or wrongly, have lived for millennia in almost paranoid fear of magic. The solution to this has to be widely supported and tied into the "institutional infrastructure" of the country. We can't pretend mages are a land unto themselves. Yes, as described, isn't a solution, this is a chance. (But the Circle in prison form, also not a solution – as you said as well) Again: these are not walking bombs. These are people. They capable thinking, they have faith, have family and friends (if not take away from them), just as non-mages. They are not same, not even similar, and not everyone of them have same or even similar goals. Someone just want to live, as Bethany or young Anders for example, someone want power, as Vivienne, the Magisters, and someone want to be useful, as Wynne, Irving, or just protect his people, as Orsino wanted. If one of them becomes dangerous, even mages can turn against him/her. This is not Tevinter. (Not mentioned, that even in Tevinter live good, "noble" people – as Fenris also said. So Tevinter also can change – this is Dorian's cause as well) And people fear form them? The separation only help to keep this fear. On the case of Cassandra and Vivienne there is a risk, that the mages and the Conclave refuse the joining to the new Circles. We are almost in the same place. I repeatedly said the solution is education, police and registration – all methods is available. Probably even Leliana, even the Conclave know the danger.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 15, 2017 14:29:09 GMT
That's not how you build a sustainable society. And that's not how you address the justified concerns of the other 99% of Thedosians who, rightly or wrongly, have lived for millennia in almost paranoid fear of magic. The solution to this has to be widely supported and tied into the "institutional infrastructure" of the country. We can't pretend mages are a land unto themselves. Well, 99% of Theodosians who have lived for millennia in almost paranoid fear of magic ? Really? Do you think that Dalish, Avvars, Rivaini communities are just fables in Thedas, despite meeting some in the three DA games? And any talk about a "sustainable society" in Thedas is just nonsense. WE don`t have such a society, man. Capitalism is a system who creates crises, simply because it`s based on the concept of "unlimited growth" which is an utter nonsense, since Earth is limited. Nobody in Thedas care about a sustainable society. And about the "almost paranoid fear of magic": templars like Trask and Samson, in DA2 really showed that fear, yes? Not to mention every single people in all three games who were just running like crazy when the Warden`s, Hawke`s or Inquisitor`s party used magic near them. Funny thing, I never saw such a reaction. Are you sure you were playing the same games as everyone else? Bioware manipulated the mage-templar conflict to be more violent and spectacular for just one end: to increase sales by increasing the emotional involvement in any decision about mages and templars. Funny how all these decisions are forced binary ones (only two options) which is quite rare in real world. From the start, they wanted to introduce the theme of magic being FEARED in DA universe, contrary to the view from the old Dungeon & Dragons world (or others like Tolkien`s). BUT they shot themselves in the leg with the Dalish, Avvars, Rivain and especially with the old Thedas before the Veil. Which was a world of JUST MAGES. And survived for thousands of years just fine, according BW`s lore, not my imagination. As I proposed before, Leliana can establish Mage Academies as institutions for training in both magic and ethics, making mages competent and responsible citizens, just as any warrior. And mages will attend, and people will send their children there. An institutionalized version of what the Avvars, Dalish or Rivainis are doing already. And with training methods perfected over time such Academies can reduce to almost zero the risk of a demonic possession. As for criminals, it`s not important what they are: mages, templars, warriors, nobles, peasants, merchants. The punishment should be the same for everyone based on the gravity of the crime. But only AFTER a crime, not BEFORE. "just in case", or because the Chantry finds it convenient to use mages as weapons any time, and for any reason. EXACTLY LIKE THE QUNARI ARE DOING. The use of mages for the Chantry`s goals is the real reason for the Circles, and nothing else. I already detailed this viewpoint in several posts. Read them.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 15, 2017 14:32:45 GMT
I already detailed this viewpoint in several posts. Read them. Nah. Since you asked so nicely, I don't think I will.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 15, 2017 15:13:30 GMT
Nah. Since you asked so nicely, I don't think I will. Suit yourself. My posts are an analysis of the Nevarran Accord: why it was done, how both the Chantry and the old Inquisition benefited from it, and why the Circles were established for the same benefits.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 16, 2017 0:24:03 GMT
Is there anything in that post I haven't already answered? This logic seems to be based in the idea that you can draw one to one comparisons between things in our world and mages. The problem is that my "particular kind of logic" rests heavily on the idea that you can't do that. It rests on the idea that nothing in our world is as simultaneously dangerous and useful as magic, for the reasons I listed in the post you replied to. It further rests on the idea that our world's ideals of freedom and equality rest heavily on the idea that we're all the same in all the ways that matter, and that that's not true in worlds where some but not all people are born with the ability to grab reality by the reins and say "giddy-up." A trained soldier is more dangerous than an ordinary man, and might be unstable if he's really seen some shit, but that doesn't translate to being able to accidentally solo a large town. And it especially doesn't mean that he could have done so as a child, if his mother hadn't wanted to get him proper soldier training. It's inconsistent to acknowledge that mages are dangerous, but that with training they can gain a more or less solid hold on their abilities and that they're needed to handle certain threats? It's inconsistent to realize that mages are of use to our party specifically because they're dangerous and certain things need to die? And without getting into whether or not you accurately understand my values, how does playing a PC who doesn't agree with my assessment of what the best way to handle magic is make me a hypocrite? Well, you are using Bioware`s lore concerning the DA universe, and also game events selectively, discarding everything that don`t support your view. For instance, in DA:O we have two mages gone mwhaha (Uldred and Connor) and three nobles (Howe, Loghain, Bhelen). If you compare what Connor and Uldred COMBINED has accomplished it`s still far from the "deeds" of someone like Howe, who murdered everyone in sight in Highever WHILE BEING COMPLETELY SANE AND NOT POSSESSED, then murdered, tortured people, and hired every criminal crossing his path for an entire year at Denerim. Or Loghain, who planned the whole thing with Howe, "disposed" Cailan, then waged war and murdered nobles opposing him, jailed his own daughter, and sold elves in slavery. Or Bhelen, who murdered just about everyone opposing him, including his father the king. These "deeds" are made by non-mage and sane people in the same game. Whish shows you what really matter in DA universe and our world: not what a single human can do with his mind and bare hands, but what is the OUTCOME of her/his actions. Loghain, Howe, Bhelen were more vile than any possessed mage in DA:O not because they were supermen, but because what they DID with the means at their disposal. In order to unambigously brand Loghain a villain, you have to ignore the lore a bit yourself. The slavery and the working with Howe bit were just that bad, but Ostagar was a lot more ambiguous than you claim. But anyway, you don't think that having more power, and specifically a kind of power that you can't use to its full potential unless you're a horrible person, would have made them worse? Hell, part of the danger of Howe is that he was ignoring those rules anyway. He was using mages. But he had to hide that he was doing so. Imagine if he could have done so openly, or if he was a mage. I'm pretty sure I've already answered this. Several pages ago. I'm not minimizing the pain mundanes can cause. You, however, seem to be minimizing the extent to which throwing magic into the mix can make things worse. A mage isn't incapable of the kinds of harm a mundane can cause, but has the power to cause harms mundanes can't. I'm not 100% sure that everyone who acknowledges that agrees with me, but anyone who wants to productively argue these points needs to acknowledge that. I'm not dismissing those. Rather I'm using them as evidence against you. The Rivaini apparently let abominations go wild. The Avvar created a magic dragon intending to wipe out Orlais with it. We haven't gone one game without a Dalish mage using blood magic, and two of the three clans that can be wiped out to a man are in that position because their Keeper was an idiot with their sorcery. How does that lore work as evidence in your favor? Does "hypocritical for me" actually mean anything? Hypocrisy isn't relative. I'm either being hypocritical or I'm not. And since I've already acknowledged that mages can gain some control over their odds of being possessed (hence why I think there's any point to the Harrowing at all) and that they're needed to handle certain threats, I'm going to have to say I'm not. Nor do I recall saying that all possessions are a bad thing. Most are, but what exactly did I say that gave you the impression I think all possessions are? Anders' possession was, of course, but I haven't played DA2, so even if playing a PC that doesn't share my beliefs makes me a hypocrite (and you have yet to explain how that works) you wouldn't have anything there. The use of mages for the Chantry`s goals is the real reason for the Circles, and nothing else. I already detailed this viewpoint in several posts. Read them. You went into detail about how the Chantry and the former Inquisition benefit from the Circles. And as far as that goes, you're right. The Chantry absolutely gets a whole lot of power by being the sole dispensers of magic, and the Templars would be out of a job if they weren't hunting mages. The problem is that that's not the same thing as giving proof there's no other reason to have them, and I don't recall you doing so.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 0:38:39 GMT
Is there anything in that post I haven't already answered? Well, you are using Bioware`s lore concerning the DA universe, and also game events selectively, discarding everything that don`t support your view. For instance, in DA:O we have two mages gone mwhaha (Uldred and Connor) and three nobles (Howe, Loghain, Bhelen). If you compare what Connor and Uldred COMBINED has accomplished it`s still far from the "deeds" of someone like Howe, who murdered everyone in sight in Highever WHILE BEING COMPLETELY SANE AND NOT POSSESSED, then murdered, tortured people, and hired every criminal crossing his path for an entire year at Denerim. Or Loghain, who planned the whole thing with Howe, "disposed" Cailan, then waged war and murdered nobles opposing him, jailed his own daughter, and sold elves in slavery. Or Bhelen, who murdered just about everyone opposing him, including his father the king. These "deeds" are made by non-mage and sane people in the same game. Whish shows you what really matter in DA universe and our world: not what a single human can do with his mind and bare hands, but what is the OUTCOME of her/his actions. Loghain, Howe, Bhelen were more vile than any possessed mage in DA:O not because they were supermen, but because what they DID with the means at their disposal. In order to unambigously brand Loghain a villain, you have to ignore the lore a bit yourself. The slavery and the working with Howe bit were just that bad, but Ostagar was a lot more ambiguous than you claim. But anyway, you don't think that having more power, and specifically a kind of power that you can't use to its full potential unless you're a horrible person, would have made them worse? Hell, part of the danger of Howe is that he was ignoring those rules anyway. He was using mages. But he had to hide that he was doing so. Imagine if he could have done so openly, or if he was a mage.I'm pretty sure I've already answered this. Several pages ago. I'm not minimizing the pain mundanes can cause. You, however, seem to be minimizing the extent to which throwing magic into the mix can make things worse. A mage isn't incapable of the kinds of harm a mundane can cause, but has the power to cause harms mundanes can't. I'm not 100% sure that everyone who acknowledges that agrees with me, but anyone who wants to productively argue these points needs to acknowledge that. I'm not dismissing those. Rather I'm using them as evidence against you. The Rivaini apparently let abominations go wild. The Avvar created a magic dragon intending to wipe out Orlais with it. We haven't gone one game without a Dalish mage using blood magic, and two of the three clans that can be wiped out to a man are in that position because their Keeper was an idiot with their sorcery. How does that lore work as evidence in your favor? Does "hypocritical for me" actually mean anything? Hypocrisy isn't relative. I'm either being hypocritical or I'm not. And since I've already acknowledged that mages can gain some control over their odds of being possessed (hence why I think there's any point to the Harrowing at all) and that they're needed to handle certain threats, I'm going to have to say I'm not. Nor do I recall saying that all possessions are a bad thing. Most are, but what exactly did I say that gave you the impression I think all possessions are? Anders' possession was, of course, but I haven't played DA2, so even if playing a PC that doesn't share my beliefs makes me a hypocrite (and you have yet to explain how that works) you wouldn't have anything there. The use of mages for the Chantry`s goals is the real reason for the Circles, and nothing else. I already detailed this viewpoint in several posts. Read them. You went into detail about how the Chantry and the former Inquisition benefit from the Circles. And as far as that goes, you're right. The Chantry absolutely gets a whole lot of power by being the sole dispensers of magic, and the Templars would be out of a job if they weren't hunting mages. The problem is that that's not the same thing as giving proof there's no other reason to have them, and I don't recall you doing so. What Loghain and Hove could have done, if they would be mage? Blow up the whole Ferelden? Why? They can't to rule over a big black hole! (Okay, okay, they can, but that makes sense?) Anders' possession is bad? This is just a matter of perspective. I think he's pretty sexy. And effective. But seriously: For example Wynne's possession is clearly positive.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Feb 16, 2017 1:15:10 GMT
^ It all depends on how stable the person is. Wynne accepted that she was born to be what she was, a mage. She came to accept the circumstances of her world, adjusted and learned how to deal with it. Anders never accepted it and never learned how to conciliate with what he was. Every misdeed, every injustice, every misery against him, the mages, the poor was chalked up in his list. It grew longer and longer until his world was filled torment. He saw no light even when he helped those in need; he saw none of the joy / relief he brought, it did not ease him because his vision was only darkness and it finally consumed him.
Just imo.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 1:29:19 GMT
^ It all depends on how stable the person is. Wynne accepted that she was born to be what she was, a mage. She came to accept the circumstances of her world, adjusted and learned how to deal with it. Anders never accepted it and never learned how to conciliate with what he was. Every misdeed, every injustice, every misery against him, the mages, the poor was chalked up in his list. It grew longer and longer until his world was filled torment. He saw no light even when he helped those in need; he saw none of the joy / relief he brought, it did not ease him because his vision was only darkness and it finally consumed him. Just imo. It looks different in aspects of friendship. And Anders accepted, what is he. He was proud, that he is a mage. Anders don't accepted, that they closed him (of course a healthy man don't accept the unjust captivity... Bethany accepted, because she wanted to save her family, and Wynne was broken). Anders accepted Justice as well, in friendship. In rivalry he increasingly refused Justice and come to hate himself, and got closer and closer to lose himself finally. In rivalry he refused his responsibility for the explosion, he blamed Justice for everything. I know, that probably this latter was the writers intention.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 16, 2017 1:32:16 GMT
Is there anything in that post I haven't already answered?
In order to unambigously brand Loghain a villain, you have to ignore the lore a bit yourself. The slavery and the working with Howe bit were just that bad, but Ostagar was a lot more ambiguous than you claim.
But anyway, you don't think that having more power, and specifically a kind of power that you can't use to its full potential unless you're a horrible person, would have made them worse?
Hell, part of the danger of Howe is that he was ignoring those rules anyway. He was using mages. But he had to hide that he was doing so. Imagine if he could have done so openly, or if he was a mage.I'm pretty sure I've already answered this. Several pages ago.
I'm not minimizing the pain mundanes can cause. You, however, seem to be minimizing the extent to which throwing magic into the mix can make things worse. A mage isn't incapable of the kinds of harm a mundane can cause, but has the power to cause harms mundanes can't. I'm not 100% sure that everyone who acknowledges that agrees with me, but anyone who wants to productively argue these points needs to acknowledge that.
I'm not dismissing those. Rather I'm using them as evidence against you.
The Rivaini apparently let abominations go wild. The Avvar created a magic dragon intending to wipe out Orlais with it. We haven't gone one game without a Dalish mage using blood magic, and two of the three clans that can be wiped out to a man are in that position because their Keeper was an idiot with their sorcery. How does that lore work as evidence in your favor? Does "hypocritical for me" actually mean anything? Hypocrisy isn't relative. I'm either being hypocritical or I'm not.
And since I've already acknowledged that mages can gain some control over their odds of being possessed (hence why I think there's any point to the Harrowing at all) and that they're needed to handle certain threats, I'm going to have to say I'm not.
Nor do I recall saying that all possessions are a bad thing. Most are, but what exactly did I say that gave you the impression I think all possessions are? Anders' possession was, of course, but I haven't played DA2, so even if playing a PC that doesn't share my beliefs makes me a hypocrite (and you have yet to explain how that works) you wouldn't have anything there.
You went into detail about how the Chantry and the former Inquisition benefit from the Circles. And as far as that goes, you're right. The Chantry absolutely gets a whole lot of power by being the sole dispensers of magic, and the Templars would be out of a job if they weren't hunting mages. The problem is that that's not the same thing as giving proof there's no other reason to have them, and I don't recall you doing so. What Loghain and Hove could have done, if they would be mage? Blow up the whole Ferelden? Why? They can't to rule over a big black hole! (Okay, okay, they can, but that makes sense?) One thing that could absolutely have made things easier for Loghain and Howe would have been mind control. Try winning the Landsmeet when it's literally impossible for anyone to vote for you. Try even getting to it if instead of sending Jowan to poison Eamon, Loghain and Howe can find a competent maleficar to grab him by the brain. Or if they just sacrifice a whole bunch of kidnapped elves to collapse Redcliffe Castle into the lake. So far as we can tell the only limits on what blood magic can do are your creativity, how many people you're willing to kill, and how easily you can get your hands on people to kill. A corrupt noble could do some really terrifying things with it.So? Meredith's boinkable, but you'll notice I'm not defending her, because she does crazy things like Annul Circles that don't need Annulling. Meanwhile here you are defending the guy who killed a whole bunch of people to enable Meredith to Annul the Circle that didn't need Annulling in order to start a war. I just conceded that in the same post you replied to. No idea why you felt the need to repeat it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 16, 2017 1:33:20 GMT
^ It all depends on how stable the person is. Wynne accepted that she was born to be what she was, a mage. She came to accept the circumstances of her world, adjusted and learned how to deal with it. Anders never accepted it and never learned how to conciliate with what he was. Every misdeed, every injustice, every misery against him, the mages, the poor was chalked up in his list. It grew longer and longer until his world was filled torment. He saw no light even when he helped those in need; he saw none of the joy / relief he brought, it did not ease him because his vision was only darkness and it finally consumed him. Just imo. It looks different in aspects of friendship. And Anders accepted, what is he. He was proud, that he is a mage. Anders don't accepted, that they closed him (of course a healthy man don't accept the unjust captivity... Bethany accepted, because she wanted to save her family, and Wynne was broken). Anders accepted Justice as well, in friendship. In rivalry he increasingly refused Justice and come to hate himself, and got closer and closer to lose himself finally. In rivalry he refused his responsibility for the explosion, he blamed Justice for everything. I know, that probably this latter was the writers intention. And yet Friendship still corrupts Justice (and by extension Anders) enough that the two nearly kill Ella. (Or actually kill Ella, in some world-states.)
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Feb 16, 2017 1:34:11 GMT
That's why I said he never accepted anything of what he was. It's easier to shove it on someone else.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 1:40:36 GMT
What Loghain and Hove could have done, if they would be mage? Blow up the whole Ferelden? Why? They can't to rule over a big black hole! (Okay, okay, they can, but that makes sense?) One thing that could absolutely have made things easier for Loghain and Howe would have been mind control. Try winning the Landsmeet when it's literally impossible for anyone to vote for you. Try even getting to it if instead of sending Jowan to poison Eamon, Loghain and Howe can find a competent maleficar to grab him by the brain. Or if they just sacrifice a whole bunch of kidnapped elves to collapse Redcliffe Castle into the lake. So far as we can tell the only limits on what blood magic can do are your creativity, how many people you're willing to kill, and how easily you can get your hands on people to kill. A corrupt noble could do some really terrifying things with it.So? Meredith's boinkable, but you'll notice I'm not defending her, because she does crazy things like Annul Circles that don't need Annulling. Meanwhile here you are defending the guy who killed a whole bunch of people to enable Meredith to Annul the Circle that didn't need Annulling in order to start a war.I just conceded that in the same post you replied to. No idea why you felt the need to repeat it. You serious? Haha, no, I'm sure, you just kidding. You know, how hard to control a whole Landsmeet, with blood magic? This was a joke. Semi. Because Anders was right, Meredith not. But yes, Anders' tools was questionable. Meredith's tools was officially approved. I just added a positive example to possession.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 16, 2017 1:55:00 GMT
One thing that could absolutely have made things easier for Loghain and Howe would have been mind control. Try winning the Landsmeet when it's literally impossible for anyone to vote for you. Try even getting to it if instead of sending Jowan to poison Eamon, Loghain and Howe can find a competent maleficar to grab him by the brain. Or if they just sacrifice a whole bunch of kidnapped elves to collapse Redcliffe Castle into the lake.
So far as we can tell the only limits on what blood magic can do are your creativity, how many people you're willing to kill, and how easily you can get your hands on people to kill. A corrupt noble could do some really terrifying things with it.So? Meredith's boinkable, but you'll notice I'm not defending her, because she does crazy things like Annul Circles that don't need Annulling. Meanwhile here you are defending the guy who killed a whole bunch of people to enable Meredith to Annul the Circle that didn't need Annulling in order to start a war.I just conceded that in the same post you replied to. No idea why you felt the need to repeat it. You serious? Haha, no, I'm sure, you just kidding. You know, how hard to control a whole Landsmeet, with blood magic? I'm not sure why it would be. We know you can control several people simultaneously. We watch Idunna do it. His tools aren't my main problem with all of this. If someone had somehow done what Anders did without magic I wouldn't be all that much less upset. It would be more accurate to say you'd repeated one I'd already conceded.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 2:01:34 GMT
It looks different in aspects of friendship. And Anders accepted, what is he. He was proud, that he is a mage. Anders don't accepted, that they closed him (of course a healthy man don't accept the unjust captivity... Bethany accepted, because she wanted to save her family, and Wynne was broken). Anders accepted Justice as well, in friendship. In rivalry he increasingly refused Justice and come to hate himself, and got closer and closer to lose himself finally. In rivalry he refused his responsibility for the explosion, he blamed Justice for everything. I know, that probably this latter was the writers intention. And yet Friendship still corrupts Justice (and by extension Anders) enough that the two nearly kill Ella. (Or actually kill Ella, in some world-states.) Go to Justice topic. This is off here. Enough that Justice is a spirit, not a human. He need time to learn to thinking as a human. Anders need time to control himself better. And Hawke easily can convince Justice/Anders about, what he want to do is wrong. Justice isn't a "good" spirit. Justice fight for his cause, for Anders cause. I think, the explosion was Anders intention. Justice only hardened Anders, and yes, don't let him to lose his cause. That's why I said he never accepted anything of what he was. It's easier to shove it on someone else. Yes, a bit hard to accept his quest, because he don't tell, why. This is vexatious/hurt in friendship/love, but finally acceptable, why he wanted this, and easy to agree with his goal. Of course, easy to pass the responsibility, or yes, easy to refuse this method. I agree. I understand why people hate Anders/Justice.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 16, 2017 2:13:12 GMT
And yet Friendship still corrupts Justice (and by extension Anders) enough that the two nearly kill Ella. (Or actually kill Ella, in some world-states.) Go to Justice topic. This is off here. Tell adrian that. I didn't bring it up.Even when the price was an Annulment and a war to start a program that is only questionably an improvement over what's already being done.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 2:26:50 GMT
You serious? Haha, no, I'm sure, you just kidding. You know, how hard to control a whole Landsmeet, with blood magic? I'm not sure why it would be. We know you can control several people simultaneously. We watch Idunna do it. His tools aren't my main problem with all of this. If someone had somehow done what Anders did without magic I wouldn't be all that much less upset.It would be more accurate to say you'd repeated one I'd already conceded. Idunna used his magic not on an entire Landsmeet... And: any mage in the group was able to recognized and dispell her magic (even Fenris almost recognized). Easily. If in the Landsmeet would be mages, they have been recognized and dispelled. So: the mages can be useful as well. Anders used bombs. What's your problem? Okay, because I don't know the exact method, perhaps some kind magic was involve, but I don't think so. I can imagine rather that Anders did not want to use magic for this action (without the use of magic it would prove that not only the magic can be dangerous. It would have been logical).
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2017 2:39:32 GMT
Go to Justice topic. This is off here. Tell adrian that. I didn't bring it up.Even when the price was an Annulment and a war to start a program that is only questionably an improvement over what's already being done. Every revolution outcome is doubtful. The people still trying. And if they fail, their example can give hope later in a similar situation. The point is that always some kind change follow the revolutions. Nothing is the same anymore.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 16, 2017 2:41:41 GMT
Because Anders was right, Meredith not. But yes, Anders' tools was questionable. Meredith's tools was officially approved. Anders, for what it's worth, makes it clear that he knows Meredith will Annul the Circle in response to his actions. Heck, he's counting on it. By that point, in his eyes, Mages who weren't trying to kill all Templars were just as guilty as the Templars themselves. It's a weird, twisted, almost ironic sort of thing. Meredith acts directly to Annul the Circle in order to control the city. Anders indirectly acts to get the Circle Annulled in order to kill mages, in the hopes that they'd serve as martyrs, just like him.
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