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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 22:32:08 GMT
I have been thinking about this lately, and I cannot decided which divine iş the best. On one hand mages should not be locked away for something they're born with, on the other hand they can be pretty dangerous and south wold have the possibility to became like Tevinter. Plus I think cass should rebuild the Seekers her being divine will get in the way of that. also Cassandra looks ridicilous with divine outfit
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 22:43:08 GMT
Leliana. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jan 24, 2017 22:44:10 GMT
Viv. Shakes things up quietly, so stylish, and she keeps order without doing anything extra special crazy or oppressive. COME AT ME.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 22:56:22 GMT
Viv. Shakes things up quietly, so stylish, and she keeps order without doing anything extra special crazy or oppressive. COME AT ME. You sure, that's vithout oppression? To force the Templars to take lyrium, is not oppression? It's okay, because Vivienne "stylish" ("poser" is probably better wording)? The Sunburst Throne is too great power for a power hungry "Gamer". Vivienne the worst. I can imagine, that she would be extremely cruel. And she is rather Viviennian, than Andrastian...
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jan 24, 2017 22:57:57 GMT
Leliana (softened)
Viv - never want to impose her beliefs on others (no matter what she would impose on others, she'd make sure that she would always live in an ivory tower and luxury)
Cass would be my second choice but I think she'd be much happier not being Divine
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 23:02:42 GMT
Leliana (softened) Viv - never want to impose her beliefs on others (no matter what she would impose on others, she'd make sure that she would always live in an ivory tower and luxury) Cass would be my second choice but I think she'd be much happier not being Divine Yes, Cassandra is better than Vivienne, not so dangerous. And yes, she don't really want power – but this is why she more suitable...
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 24, 2017 23:04:31 GMT
I really hate Leliana as Divine. Proclaiming that everything is sunshine and rainbows because the Ladypope says so sounds good on paper, but it seems like she just screws it up. What she's liable to do (and what the epilogues seem to indicate she does) is just sort of start a new Protestant Chantry movement. The Divine doesn't get to wave a magic wand and change everyone's minds, and if she does, well, that feels like bad writing, and I don't want a worldstate with bad writing anyway.
That leaves Cassandra and Vivienne, and for me, it's kind of a close call. It feels very similar to the Harrowmont/Bhelen decision in Origins, the difference being that Origins let us know what the aftermath really looked like pretty much right away, and with Cassandra/Vivienne, it's less clear, at least up to the point we've seen so far.
Vivienne is described as a "tyrant", and that shouldn't be surprising, since she's self-serving and manipulative, and is unashamed to tell Solas that her desire for power is derived mostly from nothing but her own sense of entitlement. However, as much as it pains me to admit it, she does have the leadership skills necessary to keep the clerics in line, and apparently her restored Circles do allow for greater mage freedoms (if only for the ones that find favor with the new Divine...but still, perhaps, a start).
Cassandra on the other hand is an idealist, but her vision of the Chantry, at least, has the greatest balance of vision and reality. Furthermore, she's devout, and cares deeply about trying to create a Chantry that ultimately serves the populace of Thedas, rather than gets served by the populace instead. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have much in the way of leadership skill; she's really more of a follower if you look at how she acts even when "in charge" of the Inquisition, and really prefers to be out of the spotlight. I think she'll have trouble as head of the Chantry for the same reason she didn't want to be at the top of the Inquisition.
My choice between them waffles on any given day. Presently, I'm in more of a Cassandra mood, but really, it's hard to say for sure until a future game grants me the list of retroactive foresight. But either way, I'm anti-Leliana.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 23:09:26 GMT
I really hate Leliana as Divine. Proclaiming that everything is sunshine and rainbows because the Ladypope says so sounds good on paper, but it seems like she just screws it up. What she's liable to do (and what the epilogues seem to indicate she does) is just sort of start a new Protestant Chantry movement. The Divine doesn't get to wave a magic wand and change everyone's minds, and if she does, well, that feels like bad writing, and I don't want a worldstate with bad writing anyway. That leaves Cassandra and Vivienne, and for me, it's kind of a close call. It feels very similar to the Harrowmont/Bhelen decision in Origins, the difference being that Origins let us know what the aftermath really looked like pretty much right away, and with Cassandra/Vivienne, it's less clear, at least up to the point we've seen so far. Vivienne is described as a "tyrant", and that shouldn't be surprising, since she's self-serving and manipulative, and is unashamed to tell Solas that her desire for power is derived mostly from nothing but her own sense of entitlement. However, as much as it pains me to admit it, she does have the leadership skills necessary to keep the clerics in line, and apparently her restored Circles do allow for greater mage freedoms (if only for the ones that find favor with the new Divine...but still, perhaps, a start). Cassandra on the other hand is an idealist, but her vision of the Chantry, at least, has the greatest balance of vision and reality. Furthermore, she's devout, and cares deeply about trying to create a Chantry that ultimately serves the populace of Thedas, rather than gets served by the populace instead. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have much in the way of leadership skill; she's really more of a follower if you look at how she acts even when "in charge" of the Inquisition, and really prefers to be out of the spotlight. I think she'll have trouble as head of the Chantry for the same reason she didn't want to be at the top of the Inquisition. My choice between them waffles on any given day. Presently, I'm in more of a Cassandra mood, but really, it's hard to say for sure until a future game grants me the list of retroactive foresight. But either way, I'm anti-Leliana. And you think, if Leliana is unbelievable, then Vivienne believable? Vivienne is a MAGE. So: you don't need hesitate: your choice is Cassandra. She is believable. And Andrastian.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 23:11:47 GMT
I really hate Leliana as Divine. Proclaiming that everything is sunshine and rainbows because the Ladypope says so sounds good on paper, but it seems like she just screws it up. What she's liable to do (and what the epilogues seem to indicate she does) is just sort of start a new Protestant Chantry movement. The Divine doesn't get to wave a magic wand and change everyone's minds, and if she does, well, that feels like bad writing, and I don't want a worldstate with bad writing anyway. That leaves Cassandra and Vivienne, and for me, it's kind of a close call. It feels very similar to the Harrowmont/Bhelen decision in Origins, the difference being that Origins let us know what the aftermath really looked like pretty much right away, and with Cassandra/Vivienne, it's less clear, at least up to the point we've seen so far. Vivienne is described as a "tyrant", and that shouldn't be surprising, since she's self-serving and manipulative, and is unashamed to tell Solas that her desire for power is derived mostly from nothing but her own sense of entitlement. However, as much as it pains me to admit it, she does have the leadership skills necessary to keep the clerics in line, and apparently her restored Circles do allow for greater mage freedoms (if only for the ones that find favor with the new Divine...but still, perhaps, a start). Cassandra on the other hand is an idealist, but her vision of the Chantry, at least, has the greatest balance of vision and reality. Furthermore, she's devout, and cares deeply about trying to create a Chantry that ultimately serves the populace of Thedas, rather than gets served by the populace instead. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have much in the way of leadership skill; she's really more of a follower if you look at how she acts even when "in charge" of the Inquisition, and really prefers to be out of the spotlight. I think she'll have trouble as head of the Chantry for the same reason she didn't want to be at the top of the Inquisition. My choice between them waffles on any given day. Presently, I'm in more of a Cassandra mood, but really, it's hard to say for sure until a future game grants me the list of retroactive foresight. But either way, I'm anti-Leliana. I was more into cassandra too but then I thought; all that shit started because templars abused their powere. Cass reforms the chantry and templar order to became better and it was canon choice for me, but how long would it take for templars to become tyrants again? It didn't seem like a permenant solürün. Changing shit from their vote felt like a better option so I went with leli (Plus she was my romance choice in origins so that made it easier)
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 24, 2017 23:14:28 GMT
And you think, if Leliana is unbelievable, then Vivienne believable? Vivienne is a MAGE. So: you don't need hesitate: your choice is Cassandra. She is believable. And Andrastian. I find Leliana unbelievable for what she does (or, more accurately, tries to do). Vivienne is, perhaps, unbelievable for what she is. While the idea of a Mage Divine is...controversial, to say the least, it doesn't contradict any of the tenets that people have been indoctrinated to for the last thousand years. Hence, it's still not as hard to swallow "I'm going to wave a magic wand and everyone's going to change what they believe". At least, not for me.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2017 23:17:12 GMT
And you think, if Leliana is unbelievable, then Vivienne believable? Vivienne is a MAGE. So: you don't need hesitate: your choice is Cassandra. She is believable. And Andrastian. I find Leliana unbelievable for what she does (or, more accurately, tries to do). Vivienne is, perhaps, unbelievable for what she is. While the idea of a Mage Divine is...controversial, to say the least, it doesn't contradict any of the tenets that people have been indoctrinated to for the last thousand years. Hence, it's still not as hard to swallow "I'm going to wave a magic wand and everyone's going to change what they believe". At least, not for me. But was war and anarchy and interregnum: the Sunburst Throne was empty, the Chant of Light seems lost. Anything is better than this ... or? So the people probably would be able to believe Leliana / Vivienne. And Leliana was the Left Hand of Divine. A heir. So: Leliana is more believable. And Vivienne is dangerous.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 24, 2017 23:27:37 GMT
Leliana.
I may not be 100% on board with how she deals with the mages, but Leliana is perhaps the only Divine to strike out against the Chantry's more prejudiced policies. From opening up the clergy to all races to reinstating the Canticle of Shartan, Leliana effectively addressed issues that would have otherwise have gone overlooked or ignored on the precedent of 'tradition'.
All of the Chantry spiel about how non-humans are farther away from the Maker, on the inherent spiritual differences between races and genders--all have been addressed, if not upended, by Leliana. All of a sudden this religion that has been, conveniently, structured to be pro-human and reinforce human dominance, has finally started to become a religion that truly wants to embrace all of the Maker's children.
Leliana may not solve Thedas's problems, but she is sure as hell bringing attention to it and that is more than what the other Divines bring to the table. Hands down.
If nothing else, then the Circles reformed by Vivienne under a Divine Leliana will presumably be a form of Circle free from major Chantry intervention, which could prove to be a very good thing.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 24, 2017 23:34:05 GMT
I wouldn't take Viviene. She's self-serving, she admits it. While it's true she allows more mage freedoms, she keeps the templars under her control. One of the ways she can do that is the lyrium leash and changing the way (structure) the Order is run. She, in essence, controls an army that is present throughout Southern Thedas and through them, the mages. I don't believe for one minute her hunger for power just stops at the sunburst throne. It will gradually grow and grow. She's well versed in politics, she can maneuver her way to consume more power and the dumb sods who'll grovel, bedazzled because she's Divine, will let her.
Leliana is idealistic and she has the skills to convince people to her side or she wouldn't be able to talk down the rebels without bloodshed. Her problem would be much sunshine she would blind herself with. It is possible to go too far (blind to the negative impacts) in the strive to bring equality.
Cass doesn't want power, that works in her favour. She likes to work within a set of rules. Stepping outside those rules makes her uneasy and uncertain. She will do what is needed and never try to move beyond her comfort zone, never try to take control when it is essential. Which is why she never even try to assume command of the Inquisition. That is one of her weak points.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 24, 2017 23:40:12 GMT
And you think, if Leliana is unbelievable, then Vivienne believable? Vivienne is a MAGE. So: you don't need hesitate: your choice is Cassandra. She is believable. And Andrastian. I find Leliana unbelievable for what she does (or, more accurately, tries to do). Vivienne is, perhaps, unbelievable for what she is. While the idea of a Mage Divine is...controversial, to say the least, it doesn't contradict any of the tenets that people have been indoctrinated to for the last thousand years. Hence, it's still not as hard to swallow "I'm going to wave a magic wand and everyone's going to change what they believe". At least, not for me. I'm honestly surprised she was even an option. Part of the reason the schism between the southern and northern Chantry hastened as it did is because the southern Chantry thought a mage holding a prominent position in the clergy was borderline, if not downright, sacrilegious (on account of the ever famous "magic exists to serve man and never rule over him" part of the Chant). Not to mention that there was already a ban preventing a mage from holding political power, and this is not even considering how politically powerful she makes the Circle of Magi under her rule. In all honesty, I see the second Tevinter Imperium that the south fears more in Vivienne's Chantry than the free College of Enchanters.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 0:03:28 GMT
In all honesty, I see the second Tevinter Imperium that the south fears more in Vivienne's Chantry than the free College of Enchanters. I generally agree with this, for what it's worth. In "Vivienne's" Chantry, you have to face the possibility of extreme corruption, and yeah, that includes twisting the Chantry's message into a mirror of Tevinter's Chantry. However, I think you have a potential "collapse" that can stem from their fallings. In Leliana's case, I'm less worried about the Mages as I am about common people, who I just don't see as buying into her philosophies, leading to a sort of backlash of hate against the very sorts she would prefer to protect. Even if Leliana goes into the position in murderpope mode, it's one thing to assassinate a bunch of closed-minded priests, but will she declare an Exalted March on Jader if they won't take service from an Elven Mother, for example? In Cassandra's, it's almost sort of the reverse of Vivienne; I could see the Chantry as an organization collapsing under its own weight, as those who used the Chantry to seek political power suddenly found their machinations stonewalled, and worked to subvert her in order to gain power again. All of those things could go wrong. That's why I think it'll be hard to say who I want to see as Divine in my worlds until I see what their place in that role actually mean.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 0:04:55 GMT
Vote for Murder Pope!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 0:11:12 GMT
I have been thinking about this lately, and I cannot decided which divine iş the best. On one hand mages should not be locked away for something they're born with, on the other hand they can be pretty dangerous and south wold have the possibility to became like Tevinter. Plus I think cass should rebuild the Seekers her being divine will get in the way of that I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles helped matters. Having an anti-mage religious organization have "dominion over mages by divine right" was never going to end well. While I dislike the Chantry of Andraste, I do support Leliana becoming the new Divine. She supports mage autonomy, she dissolves the racist prohibitions in the Chantry against non-human races, and she even restores the Cantice of Shartan back into the Chant. Although it's not explicitly stated, I like to think she strikes down the prohibition against the elven religion that criminalizes the Dalish.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:15:32 GMT
In all honesty, I see the second Tevinter Imperium that the south fears more in Vivienne's Chantry than the free College of Enchanters. I generally agree with this, for what it's worth. In "Vivienne's" Chantry, you have to face the possibility of extreme corruption, and yeah, that includes twisting the Chantry's message into a mirror of Tevinter's Chantry. However, I think you have a potential "collapse" that can stem from their fallings. In Leliana's case, I'm less worried about the Mages as I am about common people, who I just don't see as buying into her philosophies, leading to a sort of backlash of hate against the very sorts she would prefer to protect. Even if Leliana goes into the position in murderpope mode, it's one thing to assassinate a bunch of closed-minded priests, but will she declare an Exalted March on Jader if they won't take service from an Elven Mother, for example? In Cassandra's, it's almost sort of the reverse of Vivienne; I could see the Chantry as an organization collapsing under its own weight, as those who used the Chantry to seek political power suddenly found their machinations stonewalled, and worked to subvert her in order to gain power again. All of those things could go wrong. That's why I think it'll be hard to say who I want to see as Divine in my worlds until I see what their place in that role actually mean. Everything COULD go wrong. Haha! The most stronger building may collapse. The Titanic sank on its maiden voyage... Millennial powerful system crashed before Inquisition...
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Post by opuspace on Jan 25, 2017 0:23:08 GMT
And you think, if Leliana is unbelievable, then Vivienne believable? Vivienne is a MAGE. So: you don't need hesitate: your choice is Cassandra. She is believable. And Andrastian. I find Leliana unbelievable for what she does (or, more accurately, tries to do). Vivienne is, perhaps, unbelievable for what she is. While the idea of a Mage Divine is...controversial, to say the least, it doesn't contradict any of the tenets that people have been indoctrinated to for the last thousand years. Hence, it's still not as hard to swallow "I'm going to wave a magic wand and everyone's going to change what they believe". At least, not for me. I'm convinced a softened Divine Leliana is blackmailing the stubborn opponents instead of murdering them. She is a spymaster after all...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 0:23:54 GMT
Leliana. 1. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. Whether or not you agree with the comparison between forced Circles and quarantines for people with contagious illnesses, you're going to have to either argue that the latter is wrong or else qualify point one a bit.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 0:25:19 GMT
I find Leliana unbelievable for what she does (or, more accurately, tries to do). Vivienne is, perhaps, unbelievable for what she is. While the idea of a Mage Divine is...controversial, to say the least, it doesn't contradict any of the tenets that people have been indoctrinated to for the last thousand years. Hence, it's still not as hard to swallow "I'm going to wave a magic wand and everyone's going to change what they believe". At least, not for me. I'm convinced a softened Divine Leliana is blackmailing the stubborn opponents instead of murdering them. She is a spymaster after all... That's not unlikely. I'm more concerned with how she handles the commonfolk believers than the priests, though, ultimately.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 0:28:18 GMT
I'm convinced a softened Divine Leliana is blackmailing the stubborn opponents instead of murdering them. She is a spymaster after all... That's not unlikely. I'm more concerned with how she handles the commonfolk believers than the priests, though, ultimately. You mean the people who would take umbrage with elves being treated equal to humans because (as Duncan said) they see elves as less than people? Or people who think mages are 'cursed' by the Maker? I chose to support Leliana becoming steeled, and I don't regret my decision.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:31:10 GMT
Leliana. 1. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. Whether or not you agree with the comparison between the Circles and quarantining people with contagious illnesses, you're going to have to either argue that the latter is wrong or else qualify point one a bit. This is not the same. And there will always be accidents. Lets locks himself up, willingly, who are afraid.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 0:36:22 GMT
Whether or not you agree with the comparison between the Circles and quarantining people with contagious illnesses, you're going to have to either argue that the latter is wrong or else qualify point one a bit. This is not the same. And there will always be accidents. Lets locks himself up, willingly, who are afraid. That misses the point a bit, though. You said that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up. I said that whether or not you agree that quarantining the sick is the same as isolating mages, you can't believe both that quarantining the sick is acceptable and that there's never a reason to lock up the innocent. Which do you believe?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:38:02 GMT
This is not the same. And there will always be accidents. Lets locks himself up, willingly, who are afraid. That misses the point a bit, though. You said that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up. I said that whether or not you agree that quarantining the sick is the same as isolating mages, you can't believe both that quarantining the sick is acceptable and that there's never a reason to lock up the innocent. Which do you believe? I said: willingly. The key is free will. Later, if they get bored, they can come out any time.
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