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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 6:49:09 GMT
Not only is Leliana my ideal option, I consider her the only option, period. Cassandra is morally, charismatically and intellectually deficient; Vivienne only has the first problem, but man is it a doozy. A useful test to prove that the mage can resist demons, yes. I think that's relevant, all things considered. And you didn't answer the question of what you think a useful test for that would be. Have the Harrowing be fiddled with to involve a senior mage around who can save the apprentice if need be. Not difficult. I'm trying to figure out if that would be worth doing. For one thing it would put the Senior Enchanter (or First Enchanter, since the Circle presumably only Harrows one mage at a time and why not have the head involved?) in danger if he has to fight a demon too. For another it means the apprentice knows he failed the Harrowing. That's got to be a morale blow, and maybe one that would make him less resistant. And while this is by no means my primary concern, the Senior Enchanter would need lyrium to enter the Fade, so the cost of the Harrowing doubles. And then you have to pay that same doubled cost for subsequent Harrowings for someone you can't be sure will ever pass. On the other hand... you have a not-dead mage apprentice. That's worth considering.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 6:56:00 GMT
Not only is Leliana my ideal option, I consider her the only option, period. Cassandra is morally, charismatically and intellectually deficient; Vivienne only has the first problem, but man is it a doozy. Have the Harrowing be fiddled with to involve a senior mage around who can save the apprentice if need be. Not difficult. I'm trying to figure out if that would be worth doing. For one thing it would put the Senior Enchanter (or First Enchanter, since the Circle presumably only Harrows one mage at a time and why not have the head involved?) in danger if he has to fight a demon too. For another it means the apprentice knows he failed the Harrowing. That's got to be a morale blow, and maybe one that would make him less resistant. And while this is by no means my primary concern, the Senior Enchanter would need lyrium to enter the Fade, so the cost of the Harrowing doubles. And then you have to pay that same doubled cost for subsequent Harrowings for someone you can't be sure will ever pass. On the other hand... you have a not-dead mage apprentice. That's worth considering. If there's a demon strong enough to kill the First Enchanter involved in the Harrowing, someone is doing something very wrong to begin with. And if there's a morale blow... so what? You can get back up and fix things.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 7:02:27 GMT
I'm trying to figure out if that would be worth doing. For one thing it would put the Senior Enchanter (or First Enchanter, since the Circle presumably only Harrows one mage at a time and why not have the head involved?) in danger if he has to fight a demon too. For another it means the apprentice knows he failed the Harrowing. That's got to be a morale blow, and maybe one that would make him less resistant. And while this is by no means my primary concern, the Senior Enchanter would need lyrium to enter the Fade, so the cost of the Harrowing doubles. And then you have to pay that same doubled cost for subsequent Harrowings for someone you can't be sure will ever pass. On the other hand... you have a not-dead mage apprentice. That's worth considering. If there's a demon strong enough to kill the First Enchanter involved in the Harrowing, someone is doing something very wrong to begin with. And if there's a morale blow... so what? You can get back up and fix things. Unless a demon gets to you before you get over it. Then it's hard to fix things.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 7:05:45 GMT
If there's a demon strong enough to kill the First Enchanter involved in the Harrowing, someone is doing something very wrong to begin with. And if there's a morale blow... so what? You can get back up and fix things. Unless a demon gets to you before you get over it. Then it's hard to fix things. True. But since I don't think we've once ever seen someone get possessed by a demon during ordinary sleep, I'm fairly sure it's virtually nonexistent.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 7:24:12 GMT
Unless a demon gets to you before you get over it. Then it's hard to fix things. True. But since I don't think we've once ever seen someone get possessed by a demon during ordinary sleep, I'm fairly sure it's virtually nonexistent. Maybe? I don't know if we can say that we'd have seen it if it exists, though. And you don't need to be sleeping to be possessed: we have seen that.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 7:28:11 GMT
True. But since I don't think we've once ever seen someone get possessed by a demon during ordinary sleep, I'm fairly sure it's virtually nonexistent. Maybe? I don't know if we can say that we'd have seen it if it exists, though. And you don't need to be sleeping to be possessed: we have seen that. To put it another way, we've never seen demonic possession that did not either come from outright inviting a demon in, or through a botched demon summoning.
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Post by lynroy on Jan 25, 2017 8:54:25 GMT
ALL HAIL MURDER POPE!
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Post by Domakir on Jan 25, 2017 9:19:49 GMT
Leliana. No one should be imprisoned just because people are afraid of something they cannot understand. I think mages deserve a chance and Leliana can give them that. We'll see whether that works or not.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 9:26:48 GMT
Maybe? I don't know if we can say that we'd have seen it if it exists, though. And you don't need to be sleeping to be possessed: we have seen that. To put it another way, we've never seen demonic possession that did not either come from outright inviting a demon in, or through a botched demon summoning. What about Thrask's daughter? From what I've been given to understand all we see is her saying "Help me" in a blind panic and she turns into an abomination. And either way, David Gaider says that some demons are a bit more subtle than simply asking permission... which would explain why it happens at all, given that being possessed is a horrible deal under most circumstances. (Though I'm still not sure whether WoG counts until we actually see it in action, which we might never given semi-recent developments.)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 9:29:48 GMT
Leliana. No one should be imprisoned just because people are afraid of something they cannot understand. I think mages deserve a chance and Leliana can give them that. We'll see whether that works or not. I think the fear is based on the fact that they do somewhat understand it. Or at least they understand the bits they need to.
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 25, 2017 10:07:33 GMT
MURDERPOPE FTW!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 10:55:14 GMT
Why does this board like to eat my posts when I forget to switch from the WYSIWYG editor? I think the difference between quarantine and the Circles is that quarantine is intended to be temporary until a treatment or a cure can be found. Until then, a certain level of decency is expected to be given to the patient. Unless they give cause, there's no good reason to treat someone who is infectious as a criminal. Not if you want their cooperation. Are Circles really that restrictive, though? Wynne moves independently in Origins, more or less, as do a few other NPC mages you can meet (one of which is even explicitly on the way to report Collective "Blood Mages" to the Chantry...and therefore is almost certainly not an Apostate). Wynne's friend in Awakening is living a completely unsupervised life researching herbs and stuff. Vivienne indicates her Circle similarly allowed for Harrowed Mages to live at least mostly-autonomous lifestyles (although she is granted, a biased view, and maybe shouldn't be taken 100% at her word). Kirkwall was a prison, that can't be denied, and shouldn't have been how it was, even if it that was how it was meant to be (which, it seems, it wasn't). But if you look at examples around the franchise (maybe some in the novels, too? I didn't read those), it seems like "lock up all the Mages forever" isn't really what the Circle was meant to be about in the setting anyway. I never take Vivienne at her word. Ines is inferred to be a Senior Enchanter (which is why Wynne wanted her to be present at Cumberland) who was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after Ferelden suffered Blighted lands after the Fifth Blight, and she presumably had permission to be out there. Wynne is a Senior Enchanter, and she asks permission to leave the Circle to help the Warden during the Fifth Blight. Asunder also mocks this by pointing out that she has certain liberties that other Circle mages do not have. Funny enough, when Wynne is trying to persuade you to re-join the Circle (if your Warden is a Circle mage), you can tell her that the Circle of Ferelden is "an oppressive place", and she says you can try and change that as a leader of the Circle; she even says that this is her dream. Supporting Leliana as Divine is probably something Wynne would have approved since she says in the City of Amaranthine that her opposition to the Circles breaking free is that the Chantry would kill all the mages rather than see them free.
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Post by Pokemario on Jan 25, 2017 11:18:33 GMT
Both Inspired Leliana and Cassandra work for me
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 11:47:03 GMT
I honestly think it's hard to say, because we only really saw a broad reflection of policies of two Circles: Ferelden and Kirkwall, which were extremely different (and a single person's account of the policy of another, but one that seems to support the "Ferelden" approach if anything). And of the examples you gave...I don't think Wynne would be anyone to fear if I were to just pass her by in the streets...Vivienne, maybe, but I'd probably experience the same amount of fear if she wasn't a Mage. And Quentin, well yeah, he was a maniac (and one even surreptitiously supported by the local Circle's First Enchanter!), but even he didn't rack up his body count simply on account of being a Mage (doesn't excuse his actions, mind you). I'm not disputing that a non-mage can be dangerous, but being a mage automatically makes you not someone to mess with. Vivienne's not dangerous because she's a mage, but she'd be less dangerous if she wasn't one. And Quentin might have been caught earlier, or been overcome by a victim, if he hadn't been a mage. (I think one of his victims was a mage? He'd have been really unlikely to win that fight if he was some common thug with a knife.) And while this isn't something to write policy around because the specifics are probably rare, I think Quentin's necromancy is the only reason he was killing at all; he wasn't getting his wife back, but he was getting something he could fool himself into thinking was getting his wife back, and a non-mage wouldn't have gotten that. About Quentin: You said, never existed in the real world a serial killer with crazy reasons and their own tools? No one was necromancer between them. Anyone who has committed a lot of killing, until the police was able to realize who did it? And they were no mages, ofc. Meredith stopped the investigation, she declareed to wasted time, and wrote an apology letter to Gascard du Puis...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 12:07:42 GMT
Not if it only happens rarely. A city falling every few decades isn't a world ending threat. And hey, I doubt all abominations really can wipe out a city. Don't forget that Connor was a desire abomination, not, say a Rage or Hunger one. But I don't think the Chantry is arguing that mages are a world-destroying threat. Just that they're worth doing something about. So: then to prevent one or two isolated cases, need to imprison every mage and to persecute every mage. And with this actions make more dangerous and unstable every mage, and to risk Thedas... Yes. Seems a decent solution, rather: this is THE solution! (No, this isn't.) Connor's action would be avoidable with school, and without Chantry's bullshit, about mages' curse. (Yes, I know, this was NOT the Chanty's official teaching, but the Cantry suggested this, at least did nothing against the sisters/templars/etc., who suggested this. Meredith accepted statement, in Ferelden Circle you can see a poor apprentice, who believe, that she is cursed etc.)
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 25, 2017 12:47:03 GMT
So: then to prevent one or two isolated cases, need to imprison every mage and to persecute every mage. And with this actions make more dangerous and unstable every mage, and to risk Thedas... Yes. Seems a decent solution, rather: this is THE solution! (No, this isn't.) Connor's action would be avoidable with school, and without Chantry's bullshit, about mages' curse. (Yes, I know, this was NOT the Chanty's official teaching, but the Cantry suggested this, at least did nothing against the sisters/templars/etc., who suggested this. Meredith accepted statement, in Ferelden Circle you can see a poor apprentice, who believe, that she is cursed etc.) Considering every mage a potential murderer/criminal is stupid. Also, the idea about mages bringing the world to an end. Tevinter was an empire for more than a thousand years before the First Blight, and it`s still an empire full of people, not abominations by the time of Dragon Age. Ruled by mages all the time, and still not overrun by demons. As for non-mage criminals: what about some "nice" characters like "Mad Emperor" Reville who invaded Ferelden and his successor Florian who allowed some "entertaining" things to be done in conquered Ferelden. Not to mention the way chevaliers and nobles in Orlay - the most holy empire - are behaving. Or just to think about other "innocent" leaders like Loghain or Meredith. The problem is not being a mage - a bloodthirsty/murderous king or emperor can be much worse - but what kind of human being you are. Indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin (what the Chantry does constantly) can only lead to unstable personalities, and potential troubles/insanity. The Chantry was actively inhibiting any kind of research about how to defend against demonic possession - they like the status quo, which is complete control of the mages, including their abilities. Useful in case of Exalted Marches, for instance. Like Cullen said in DA2, Act 3: "We have a god-given right over mages". Or something like that. My Hawke never forgave him for this statement...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 12:54:32 GMT
Not if it only happens rarely. A city falling every few decades isn't a world ending threat. And hey, I doubt all abominations really can wipe out a city. Don't forget that Connor was a desire abomination, not, say a Rage or Hunger one. But I don't think the Chantry is arguing that mages are a world-destroying threat. Just that they're worth doing something about. So: then to prevent one or two isolated cases, need to imprison every mage and to persecute every mage. And with this actions make more dangerous and unstable every mage, and to risk Thedas... Yes. Seems a decent solution, rather: this is THE solution! (No, this isn't.) One or two isolated cases of a city being destroyed, yes. And I'll note that you're already advocating for doing this for the mages who are most likely to turn. True, the Harrowed mages (or the mages who've passed whatever test you advocate) are less likely to turn, but they're also a much bigger threat should they do so. Connor was young and weak enough that Jowan didn't think he had the power to deliberately tear the Veil, and yet the abomination he turned into had the power to empty Redcliffe. If an abomination of Uldred's caliber (said abomination was a slightly stronger demon in a much stronger mage) had formed outside the Circle, where there was no door to shut on him, what might have happened? And while I don't believe that the question of what a mage might choose to do with their powers is enough to justify the Circles on their own, surely you concede that it's a factor. Okay, but what does this have to do with anything? We're given no reason to believe any of the three Divine Victorias let that continue. I'm not disputing that a non-mage can be dangerous, but being a mage automatically makes you not someone to mess with. Vivienne's not dangerous because she's a mage, but she'd be less dangerous if she wasn't one. And Quentin might have been caught earlier, or been overcome by a victim, if he hadn't been a mage. (I think one of his victims was a mage? He'd have been really unlikely to win that fight if he was some common thug with a knife.) And while this isn't something to write policy around because the specifics are probably rare, I think Quentin's necromancy is the only reason he was killing at all; he wasn't getting his wife back, but he was getting something he could fool himself into thinking was getting his wife back, and a non-mage wouldn't have gotten that. About Quentin: You said, never existed in the real world a serial killer with crazy reasons, their own means? No one was necromancer between them. Anyone who has committed a lot of killing, until the police was able to realize who did it? That's not really what I said. I specifically stated that you don't need to be a mage to be dangerous. Merely that being a mage means you are more dangerous than you would otherwise be, and more dangerous than most people in this setting (and just about anyone in real life) could dream of being. And?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 13:09:30 GMT
So: then to prevent one or two isolated cases, need to imprison every mage and to persecute every mage. And with this actions make more dangerous and unstable every mage, and to risk Thedas... Yes. Seems a decent solution, rather: this is THE solution! (No, this isn't.) Connor's action would be avoidable with school, and without Chantry's bullshit, about mages' curse. (Yes, I know, this was NOT the Chanty's official teaching, but the Cantry suggested this, at least did nothing against the sisters/templars/etc., who suggested this. Meredith accepted statement, in Ferelden Circle you can see a poor apprentice, who believe, that she is cursed etc.) Considering every mage a potential murderer/criminal is stupid. Also, the idea about mages bringing the world to an end. Tevinter was an empire for more than a thousand years before the First Blight, and it`s still an empire full of people, not abominations by the time of Dragon Age. Ruled by mages all the time, and still not overrun by demons. As for non-mage criminals: what about some "nice" characters like "Mad Emperor" Reville who invaded Ferelden and his successor Florian who allowed some "entertaining" things to be done in conquered Ferelden. Not to mention the way chevaliers and nobles in Orlay - the most holy empire - are behaving. Or just to think about other "innocent" leaders like Loghain or Meredith. The problem is not being a mage - a bloodthirsty/murderous king or emperor can be much worse - but what kind of human being you are. Indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin (what the Chantry does constantly) can only lead to unstable personalities, and potential troubles/insanity. The Chantry was actively inhibiting any kind of research about how to defend against demonic possession - they like the status quo, which is complete control of the mages, including their abilities. Useful in case of Exalted Marches, for instance. Like Cullen said in DA2, Act 3: "We have a god-given right over mages". Or something like that. My Hawke never forgave him for this statement... I've actually already had to answer most of this. I've already conceded that the mages are innocents who are being locked up, so claiming that I consider every mage a "potential murderer/criminal" isn't helpful. Likewise I'm not arguing that most mages are capable of bringing the world to an end, so that argument doesn't help either. And the bit about non-mages being dangerous too... I've lost track of how many times I've answered that one. Yes, non-mages can be dangerous, but you don't help anything by pretending that being a mage doesn't automatically make someone a heaping load more dangerous than they would otherwise be. A Tevinter Magister is basically an Orlesian noble with the additional problem of having a form of magic that gets stronger the more inhumanly they act. Quentin is basically a normal serial killer with the unfortunate complications of being pretty much impossible for his victims to fight off and being capable of setting demons on the people who want to stop him. And if I don't see that as enough to justify the Circles without the possibility of mages unwillingly becoming abominations thrown in, I'm still alarmed that pro-mages don't even seem to be thinking about it. And the "indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin" thing is something we don't know they're still doing after DA:I (to the extent that they were, and even Catilina concedes they weren't all doing it) that I never approved of in the first place. And the inhibiting research thing is another thing I don't approve of, which we know Cassandra at least seems inclined to stop doing since she expressed an interest in following up on Pharamond's findings. (In the same vein as my last aside, Pharamond was given his orders by the Divine.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 13:25:49 GMT
So: then to prevent one or two isolated cases, need to imprison every mage and to persecute every mage. And with this actions make more dangerous and unstable every mage, and to risk Thedas... Yes. Seems a decent solution, rather: this is THE solution! (No, this isn't.) One or two isolated cases of a city being destroyed, yes. And I'll note that you're already advocating for doing this for the mages who are most likely to turn. True, the Harrowed mages (or the mages who've passed whatever test you advocate) are less likely to turn, but they're also a much bigger threat should they do so. Connor was young and weak enough that Jowan didn't think he had the power to deliberately tear the Veil, and yet the abomination he turned into had the power to empty Redcliffe. If an abomination of Uldred's caliber (said abomination was a slightly stronger demon in a much stronger mage) had formed outside the Circle, where there was no door to shut on him, what might have happened? And while I don't believe that the question of what a mage might choose to do with their powers is enough to justify the Circles on their own, surely you concede that it's a factor. Okay, but what does this have to do with anything? We're given no reason to believe any of the three Divine Victorias let that continue. About Quentin: You said, never existed in the real world a serial killer with crazy reasons, their own means? No one was necromancer between them. Anyone who has committed a lot of killing, until the police was able to realize who did it? That's not really what I said. I specifically stated that you don't need to be a mage to be dangerous. Merely that being a mage means you are more dangerous than you would otherwise be, and more dangerous than most people in this setting (and just about anyone in real life) could dream of being. And? 1. My position still not moved. The whole Thedas already would a black hole, if this would a real danger. And still: one-two case not enough justify to imprison every mages – for me ofc. 2. About Connor: I already said my opinion, and this not changed as well. 3. About Quentin: You wrote: "…a non-mage wouldn't have gotten that." I just refer to that. For a madman no matter, that he really able to resurrect his wife, or not, he will try, if he believe that, he able to it. He's mad. You think, Quentin really resurrected his wife? No. He created a zombie puppet. A simple madman would be able to create a dead puppet. What is the differ? The move? This isn't a real differ... About "And?": You wrote: "And Quentin might have been caught earlier," what from you think this nonsense? A mage would be able to hiding better than a non-mage? I the city of Templars? Meredith stopped the investigation, because she didn't care about it.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 25, 2017 14:23:52 GMT
I've actually already had to answer most of this. I've already conceded that the mages are innocents who are being locked up, so claiming that I consider every mage a "potential murderer/criminal" isn't helpful. Likewise I'm not arguing that most mages are capable of bringing the world to an end, so that argument doesn't help either. And the bit about non-mages being dangerous too... I've lost track of how many times I've answered that one. Yes, non-mages can be dangerous, but you don't help anything by pretending that being a mage doesn't automatically make someone a heaping load more dangerous than they would otherwise be. A Tevinter Magister is basically an Orlesian noble with the additional problem of having a form of magic that gets stronger the more inhumanly they act. Quentin is basically a normal serial killer with the unfortunate complications of being pretty much impossible for his victims to fight off and being capable of setting demons on the people who want to stop him. And if I don't see that as enough to justify the Circles without the possibility of mages unwillingly becoming abominations thrown in, I'm still alarmed that pro-mages don't even seem to be thinking about it. And the "indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin" thing is something we don't know they're still doing after DA:I (to the extent that they were, and even Catilina concedes they weren't all doing it) that I never approved of in the first place. And the inhibiting research thing is another thing I don't approve of, which we know Cassandra at least seems inclined to stop doing since she expressed an interest in following up on Pharamond's findings. (In the same vein as my last aside, Pharamond was given his orders by the Divine.) Your argument is a bit similar to a fundamentalist one. It`s like imprisoning every gifted child, because s(he) may discover a new terrible weapon. Or every IT expert, because s(he) might bring the Internet down. I`m not arguing about Tevinter Magisters. There is no Tevinter Magister in an Orlesian Circle, I am sure. A new Divine has no authority over Tevinter. In Dragon Age world, magic is a powerful skill, which can cause both good or evil. You are judging mages based on the potential harm they`re capable. Based on this, every gifted member of a society in DA should be allowed freedom only based on their potential of destruction. Meaning, only harmless idiots should be completely free. A good warrior is a danger, a learned scholar is a threat, a noble / king / emperor is a menace and a mage a living disaster. All this sounds crazy, but it`s just a generalized extension of your viewpoint. Why restrict the "danger" criteria only to mages, and not apply it to everyone? More than that, what about threats like an Archdemon, Corypheus, Solas? Especially Solas. How do you propose to fight Solas, for instance, without any kind of magical knowledge? The problem here is control vs responsibility. The Chantry have chosen control. Meaning, controlling the mages by imprisoning them, restricting what they will learn and how they`ll do it. Instead of developing responsibility and understanding about magic in case of every mage. Of course, insane/irresponsible mages are something else and must be punished, but it`s the same with insane/irresponsible warriors also. Or king, or tyrants. It seems to me that in DA universe magic / the Fade is rather the norm than the exception. Maybe Thedas has became mostly non-magical because of the Veil. I don`t know. BW is quite inconsistent concerning DA lore. But if magic is the norm (or was at least) it`s a vital knowledge for survival, and not something to be repressed.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 14:34:04 GMT
To put it another way, we've never seen demonic possession that did not either come from outright inviting a demon in, or through a botched demon summoning. What about Thrask's daughter? From what I've been given to understand all we see is her saying "Help me" in a blind panic and she turns into an abomination. And either way, David Gaider says that some demons are a bit more subtle than simply asking permission... which would explain why it happens at all, given that being possessed is a horrible deal under most circumstances. (Though I'm still not sure whether WoG counts until we actually see it in action, which we might never given semi-recent developments.) I'm pretty sure Thrask's daughter did invite in the demon, albeit out of desperation. It happening so quickly may have something to do with the weakness of Kirkwall's Veil. And there are more subtle demons, yes, but it does seem that it requires permission to some degree on the mage's side. Hence why Uldred was torturing his prisoners until they accepted possession, instead of just letting demons smash into their minds directly.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 15:12:48 GMT
Considering every mage a potential murderer/criminal is stupid. Also, the idea about mages bringing the world to an end. Tevinter was an empire for more than a thousand years before the First Blight, and it`s still an empire full of people, not abominations by the time of Dragon Age. Ruled by mages all the time, and still not overrun by demons. As for non-mage criminals: what about some "nice" characters like "Mad Emperor" Reville who invaded Ferelden and his successor Florian who allowed some "entertaining" things to be done in conquered Ferelden. Not to mention the way chevaliers and nobles in Orlay - the most holy empire - are behaving. Or just to think about other "innocent" leaders like Loghain or Meredith. The problem is not being a mage - a bloodthirsty/murderous king or emperor can be much worse - but what kind of human being you are. Indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin (what the Chantry does constantly) can only lead to unstable personalities, and potential troubles/insanity. The Chantry was actively inhibiting any kind of research about how to defend against demonic possession - they like the status quo, which is complete control of the mages, including their abilities. Useful in case of Exalted Marches, for instance. Like Cullen said in DA2, Act 3: "We have a god-given right over mages". Or something like that. My Hawke never forgave him for this statement... I've actually already had to answer most of this. I've already conceded that the mages are innocents who are being locked up, so claiming that I consider every mage a "potential murderer/criminal" isn't helpful. Likewise I'm not arguing that most mages are capable of bringing the world to an end, so that argument doesn't help either. And the bit about non-mages being dangerous too... I've lost track of how many times I've answered that one. Yes, non-mages can be dangerous, but you don't help anything by pretending that being a mage doesn't automatically make someone a heaping load more dangerous than they would otherwise be. A Tevinter Magister is basically an Orlesian noble with the additional problem of having a form of magic that gets stronger the more inhumanly they act. Quentin is basically a normal serial killer with the unfortunate complications of being pretty much impossible for his victims to fight off and being capable of setting demons on the people who want to stop him. And if I don't see that as enough to justify the Circles without the possibility of mages unwillingly becoming abominations thrown in, I'm still alarmed that pro-mages don't even seem to be thinking about it.
And the "indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin" thing is something we don't know they're still doing after DA:I (to the extent that they were, and even Catilina concedes they weren't all doing it) that I never approved of in the first place. And the inhibiting research thing is another thing I don't approve of, which we know Cassandra at least seems inclined to stop doing since she expressed an interest in following up on Pharamond's findings. (In the same vein as my last aside, Pharamond was given his orders by the Divine.) I thought we had, its just that without details we have littler confirmation in how the College of Enchanters are (presumably) handling 'mage problems' despite how the epilogue claims they are "finding new solutions to age old problems". Its like trying to find out how a Divine Cassandra presumably reduces abuse/corruption within the Circle, even though we have literally idea how she is doing this. It's not that we think it doesn't happen, but we are not sure in how they are handling it--let alone if they are successful at it. That being said, there is a small subset that honestly believes that the lack of fear in being brought to a Circle/living in the Circle reduces the general abomination rate. But its not like we can confirm this one way or the other.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 25, 2017 15:39:36 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 15:48:27 GMT
I thought we had, its just that without details we have littler confirmation in how the College of Enchanters are (presumably) handling 'mage problems' despite how the epilogue claims they are "finding new solutions to age old problems". Its like trying to find out how a Divine Cassandra presumably reduces abuse/corruption within the Circle, even though we have literally idea how she is doing this. It's not that we think it doesn't happen, but we are not sure in how they are handling it--let alone if they are successful at it. That being said, there is a small subset that honestly believes that the lack of fear in being brought to a Circle/living in the Circle reduces the general abomination rate. But its not like we can confirm this one way or the other.Can't? Thrask's daughter, Evelina, Meredith's sister, that miserable mage at the final battle, Huon (lost his mind in Circle), Orsino... The distress/fear/despair don't have any effect?
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 17:48:02 GMT
I prefer Cassandra.
I like Leliana's ideals, but I can't fathom how she could go about making such decrees without causing a second Chantry schism. Something similar happened in my church's history, in the 1950s the governing council of our denomination passed a motion to allow women to be ordained. Half the church broke away in revolt and established a new denomination. Moral reforms are severely limited in their effectiveness when forced upon the unwilling. An effective reformer must strike a balance between those who are afraid of any change and those who pursue it with reckless abandon, so as not to tear society apart.
Cassandra's reforms will be more limited but are more likely to be successful. So I see her as the best chance for actual positive change. The biggest concern is her general discomfort with being in command and how effective she will actually be in her position. Still, I think she's bullish enough that she won't be cowed by any challenges to her authority and has people like Mother Giselle to help her.
Viviene, I don't think will actually make anything better. So she's out.
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