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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 0:41:00 GMT
That misses the point a bit, though. You said that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up. I said that whether or not you agree that quarantining the sick is the same as isolating mages, you can't believe both that quarantining the sick is acceptable and that there's never a reason to lock up the innocent. Which do you believe? I said: willingly. Free will is important. So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:43:01 GMT
I said: willingly. Free will is important. So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I said: the mages aren't infectious.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 0:44:45 GMT
So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I said: the mages aren't infectious. And I said that we're not on that at the moment. The point of this isn't me trying to argue for the Circles. (Not yet, anyway.) The point is whether you actually believe that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 0:47:32 GMT
You mean the people who would take umbrage with elves being treated equal to humans because (as Duncan said) they see elves as less than people? Or people who think mages are 'cursed' by the Maker? I chose to support Leliana becoming steeled, and I don't regret my decision. I'm not claiming that those people are in the right. I'm claiming that those people aren't going to change their minds just because Leliana makes a political decree. Perhaps you think it's not "worth it" to try and change those people's minds in the first place, but they aren't going to go away just for being ignored either, they're just going to bring about something like a "classical reformation". Now, granting, maybe Steeled!Leliana really is murderpoping everyone who opposes her, and not just the clergy, so it might be a moot point. It's still not changing hearts, though, and it's more likely to be opposed that much more violently if she's committing genocide on ignorant people.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:50:10 GMT
I said: the mages aren't infectious. And I said that we're not on that at the moment. The point of this isn't me trying to argue for the Circles. (Not yet, anyway.) The point is whether you actually believe that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up.Yes, I think that, I do not deny. At least not for life, not for long (quarantine).
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 0:51:13 GMT
You mean the people who would take umbrage with elves being treated equal to humans because (as Duncan said) they see elves as less than people? Or people who think mages are 'cursed' by the Maker? I chose to support Leliana becoming steeled, and I don't regret my decision. I'm not claiming that those people are in the right. I'm claiming that those people aren't going to change their minds just because Leliana makes a political decree. Perhaps you think it's not "worth it" to try and change those people's minds in the first place, but they aren't going to go away just for being ignored either, they're just going to bring about something like a "classical reformation". Now, granting, maybe Steeled!Leliana really is murderpoping everyone who opposes her, and not just the clergy, so it might be a moot point. It's still not changing hearts, though, and it's more likely to be opposed that much more violently if she's committing genocide on ignorant people. Well, she seems to be putting down rebellions that oppose her, and I'm pretty sure the people starting those rebellions to restore the status quo (where innocent people suffered) weren't planning on writing a strongly worded letter to her. If it's a matter of a reformer killing racist and bigoted people who violently threaten her, or a status quo where countless people were suffering because they were different, I'm inclined to support the reformer.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 0:51:47 GMT
And I said that we're not on that at the moment. The point of this isn't me trying to argue for the Circles. (Not yet, anyway.) The point is whether you actually believe that there's never a reason to lock an innocent person up.Yes, I think that, I do not deny . At least not for life, not for long (carantine). And if the sick person was incurable? If the disease was going to kill them, and would be infectious until a while after it had?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:52:23 GMT
You mean the people who would take umbrage with elves being treated equal to humans because (as Duncan said) they see elves as less than people? Or people who think mages are 'cursed' by the Maker? I chose to support Leliana becoming steeled, and I don't regret my decision. I'm not claiming that those people are in the right. I'm claiming that those people aren't going to change their minds just because Leliana makes a political decree. Perhaps you think it's not "worth it" to try and change those people's minds in the first place, but they aren't going to go away just for being ignored either, they're just going to bring about something like a "classical reformation". Now, granting, maybe Steeled!Leliana really is murderpoping everyone who opposes her, and not just the clergy, so it might be a moot point. It's still not changing hearts, though, and it's more likely to be opposed that much more violently if she's committing genocide on ignorant people. The war's over. The instability is over. The people are happy. This is the best moment for the change.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:54:51 GMT
Yes, I think that, I do not deny . At least not for life, not for long (carantine). And if the sick person was incurable? If the disease was going to kill them, and would be infectious until a while after it had? Yes, you're right. Every HIV positives need to be imprisoned. I said, the infection isn't a best parallel.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:05:53 GMT
As far as everything except the Circles goes, I think Leiliana's the best choice. She somehow manages to singlehandedly reform the Chantry, and with the exception of the Circles I like everything I see. All races are allowed into the Chantry? Took them long enough. Men are allowed into the Chantry? That took long enough too.
And I don't disapprove of Leiliana dropping the celibacy requirement if she's in a romance with the Warden. There's no real reason for it and as a general rule I'd rather the priests were as close to being one of their flocks as possible. You're supposed to be able to go to your spiritual leader for advice. The more their life parallels yours, the better their advice is.
I think my ideal Divine would be a Leiliana who didn't have Leiliana's position on the Circles. The closest thing we have to that is Cassandra, who does at least note that the Chantry has done some messed up things. ("I want to right past wrongs without avenging them.")
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:07:48 GMT
And if the sick person was incurable? If the disease was going to kill them, and would be infectious until a while after it had? Yes, you're right. Every HIV positives need to be imprisoned. I said, the infection isn't a best parallel. Yeah, that's not as contagious as I'd pictured. An HIV positive person is safe to be around as long as you don't try to be inside them. Anyway, like I'd said: I'm not going for parallels to the Circle system at the moment. I'm just asking whether you actually believe that there's literally never a reason to imprison an innocent person, and pointing out some of what answering yes to that question means.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 1:10:15 GMT
Yes, you're right. Every HIV positives need to be imprisoned. I said, the infection isn't a best parallel. Yeah, that's not as contagious as I'd pictured. An HIV positive person is safe to be around as long as you don't try to be inside them. Anyway, like I'd said: I'm not going for parallels to the Circle system at the moment. I'm just asking whether you actually believe that there's literally never a reason to imprison an innocent person, and pointing out some of what answering yes to that question means. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:11:24 GMT
Yeah, that's not as contagious as I'd pictured. An HIV positive person is safe to be around as long as you don't try to be inside them. Anyway, like I'd said: I'm not going for parallels to the Circle system at the moment. I'm just asking whether you actually believe that there's literally never a reason to imprison an innocent person, and pointing out some of what answering yes to that question means. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 1:19:07 GMT
There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I do not really understand what you're saying. There is no such disease (At least I do not know from such a long-time quarantine – perhaps the leprosarium). And the Mages don't infect through contact. The zombie apocalypse not yet come. But if it will be here, I promise, I will think about it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:21:39 GMT
So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I do not really understand what you're saying. There is no such disease. And the Mages don't infect through contact. The zombie apocalypse not yet come. But if it will be here, I promise, I will think about it. What I'm asking is what your answer would be if there was such a disease, and whether your answer to that question is consistent with your position that there's never a reason to lock up an innocent person. (Though as far as whether or not there is such a disease, does Ebola count? It's pretty nasty, contagious if you get hit with infected matter, and potentially lethal.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 1:24:58 GMT
I do not really understand what you're saying. There is no such disease. And the Mages don't infect through contact. The zombie apocalypse not yet come. But if it will be here, I promise, I will think about it. What I'm asking is what your answer would be if there was such a disease, and whether your answer to that question is consistent with your position that there's never a reason to lock up an innocent person. (Though as far as whether or not there is such a disease, does Ebola count? It's pretty nasty, contagious if you get hit with infected matter, and potentially lethal.) And rapid. No long-term. This is very important. What you're looking for is the leprosy. But that does not infect any kind, and the lepers mostly exiled to Islands, and to great territories, not locked in a tower.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 25, 2017 1:30:08 GMT
Leliana, but only if she's steeled. Sunshine and rainbows Leliana feels more unrealistic than Vivienne to me. So Murder Pope is the best Pope!
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Post by opuspace on Jan 25, 2017 1:32:18 GMT
I said: willingly. Free will is important. So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I think the difference between quarantine and the Circles is that quarantine is intended to be temporary until a treatment or a cure can be found. Until then, a certain level of decency is expected to be given to the patient. Unless they give cause, there's no good reason to treat someone who is infectious as a criminal. Not if you want their cooperation. The problem with the Circles was that no other solution was being researched in helping mages reintegrate into society. They were essentially being stocked away and forgotten. Worse, they were being abused and exploited in a setting that was wasting their skills. It's a good question you asked, one I had to think over.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 1:33:12 GMT
Leliana, but only if she's steeled. Sunshine and rainbows Leliana feels more unrealistic than Vivienne to me. So Murder Pope is the best Pope! I do not think that it would be weak. She was never a flower. But I think, the murder pope would less murder, than Vivienne. Vivienne can be cruel.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:35:50 GMT
Leliana, but only if she's steeled. Sunshine and rainbows Leliana feels more unrealistic than Vivienne to me. So Murder Pope is the best Pope! I'm not sure that's going to work long term. You'll cow the other side, but you won't weaken them. True, it's unrealistic for Sunshine-Leiliana to manage to convince everyone, but Blood-Leiliana isn't even being said to convince them. She's just murdering everyone who makes a sound. What happens when she dies, or becomes infirm with age?
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 1:42:32 GMT
Why does this board like to eat my posts when I forget to switch from the WYSIWYG editor? I think the difference between quarantine and the Circles is that quarantine is intended to be temporary until a treatment or a cure can be found. Until then, a certain level of decency is expected to be given to the patient. Unless they give cause, there's no good reason to treat someone who is infectious as a criminal. Not if you want their cooperation. Are Circles really that restrictive, though? Wynne moves independently in Origins, more or less, as do a few other NPC mages you can meet (one of which is even explicitly on the way to report Collective "Blood Mages" to the Chantry...and therefore is almost certainly not an Apostate). Wynne's friend in Awakening is living a completely unsupervised life researching herbs and stuff. Vivienne indicates her Circle similarly allowed for Harrowed Mages to live at least mostly-autonomous lifestyles (although she is granted, a biased view, and maybe shouldn't be taken 100% at her word). Kirkwall was a prison, that can't be denied, and shouldn't have been how it was, even if it that was how it was meant to be (which, it seems, it wasn't). But if you look at examples around the franchise (maybe some in the novels, too? I didn't read those), it seems like "lock up all the Mages forever" isn't really what the Circle was meant to be about in the setting anyway.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:48:03 GMT
So, that means that you do believe that people who are sick with something contagious and deadly should be allowed freedom? If so, then your beliefs are internally consistent. (But they're also rather terrifying.) I think the difference between quarantine and the Circles is that quarantine is intended to be temporary until a treatment or a cure can be found. Until then, a certain level of decency is expected to be given to the patient. Unless they give cause, there's no good reason to treat someone who is infectious as a criminal. Not if you want their cooperation. The problem with the Circles was that no other solution was being researched in helping mages reintegrate into society. They were essentially being stocked away and forgotten. Worse, they were being abused and exploited in a setting that was wasting their skills. It's a good question you asked, one I had to think over. I agree that it's a problem that the Circles weren't really trying to figure out how to re-integrate the mages into society, but I'm not sure how they were supposed to solve it. Letting Harrowed mages go completely free and saying "accidents happen" when they inevitably do doesn't seem quite safe enough to me, we don't know if mages can become Seekers (and you need to be somehow "pure" to do the ritual anyway), and we don't know of anything else we could be trying.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 1:52:39 GMT
In all honesty, I see the second Tevinter Imperium that the south fears more in Vivienne's Chantry than the free College of Enchanters. I generally agree with this, for what it's worth. In "Vivienne's" Chantry, you have to face the possibility of extreme corruption, and yeah, that includes twisting the Chantry's message into a mirror of Tevinter's Chantry. However, I think you have a potential "collapse" that can stem from their fallings. In Leliana's case, I'm less worried about the Mages as I am about common people, who I just don't see as buying into her philosophies, leading to a sort of backlash of hate against the very sorts she would prefer to protect. Even if Leliana goes into the position in murderpope mode, it's one thing to assassinate a bunch of closed-minded priests, but will she declare an Exalted March on Jader if they won't take service from an Elven Mother, for example? In Cassandra's, it's almost sort of the reverse of Vivienne; I could see the Chantry as an organization collapsing under its own weight, as those who used the Chantry to seek political power suddenly found their machinations stonewalled, and worked to subvert her in order to gain power again. All of those things could go wrong. That's why I think it'll be hard to say who I want to see as Divine in my worlds until I see what their place in that role actually mean. I agree with you too (to some extent anyway). But I guess it depends on if the reformed policies will have a chance to 'take root' as it were. But I guess I would rather have this extreme push for equal rights than a usually ineffective moderate policy of 'encouraging' equality to non-humans. Sometimes encouragement simply isn't enough (and this is a point explored in the development of the mage-templar war and the Inquisition). Nearly all of the Divines have to deal with people wanting to return to the status quo, but at least with Divines like Leliana and possibly Vivienne, this traditional desire will be waylaid because their reforms include giving power to those were previously unable to hold it. And yeah, there is always a threat of backlash, but its either dealing with that or knowingly allowing the flaws of a system to continue with only minimal changes.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 1:52:56 GMT
Why does this board like to eat my posts when I forget to switch from the WYSIWYG editor? I think the difference between quarantine and the Circles is that quarantine is intended to be temporary until a treatment or a cure can be found. Until then, a certain level of decency is expected to be given to the patient. Unless they give cause, there's no good reason to treat someone who is infectious as a criminal. Not if you want their cooperation. Are Circles really that restrictive, though? Wynne moves independently in Origins, more or less, as do a few other NPC mages you can meet (one of which is even explicitly on the way to report Collective "Blood Mages" to the Chantry...and therefore is almost certainly not an Apostate). Wynne's friend in Awakening is living a completely unsupervised life researching herbs and stuff. Vivienne indicates her Circle similarly allowed for Harrowed Mages to live at least mostly-autonomous lifestyles (although she is granted, a biased view, and maybe shouldn't be taken 100% at her word). Kirkwall was a prison, that can't be denied, and shouldn't have been how it was, even if it that was how it was meant to be (which, it seems, it wasn't). But if you look at examples around the franchise (maybe some in the novels, too? I didn't read those), it seems like "lock up all the Mages forever" isn't really what the Circle was meant to be about in the setting anyway. Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs on the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 1:59:07 GMT
Why does this board like to eat my posts when I forget to switch from the WYSIWYG editor? Are Circles really that restrictive, though? Wynne moves independently in Origins, more or less, as do a few other NPC mages you can meet (one of which is even explicitly on the way to report Collective "Blood Mages" to the Chantry...and therefore is almost certainly not an Apostate). Wynne's friend in Awakening is living a completely unsupervised life researching herbs and stuff. Vivienne indicates her Circle similarly allowed for Harrowed Mages to live at least mostly-autonomous lifestyles (although she is granted, a biased view, and maybe shouldn't be taken 100% at her word). Kirkwall was a prison, that can't be denied, and shouldn't have been how it was, even if it that was how it was meant to be (which, it seems, it wasn't). But if you look at examples around the franchise (maybe some in the novels, too? I didn't read those), it seems like "lock up all the Mages forever" isn't really what the Circle was meant to be about in the setting anyway. Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs in the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or? So that there are fewer Quentins on the streets, and to make sure the Viviennes are at least not going to have to Vivienne without the proper training. (I seem to recall you arguing that Vivienne is paranoid about demons, and that this makes her more vulnerable to them, but I don't recall you explaining how. It seems to me that wondering if everything you encounter that even might be a demon is a demon makes you less likely to fall into their traps.)
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