lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 2, 2018 0:05:30 GMT
You spoke about reforms. Vivienne doesn't want reforms. The mages have more freedom and responsibility under her than they've ever had before. That is a reform. I think she's the classic Capricorn archetype. The goat that climbs the mountain, reaches the peak and is empowered. She wields power not out of self interest IMO but because she can handle it more wisely than others and serve society by keeping it on track. I don't think of the Circles as prisons. I think Vivienne will set a good example for mages. She approves if a mage Herald says that's what they intend to do when they become Inquisitor- I think she'll hold herself to an even higher standard.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 0:20:26 GMT
You spoke about reforms. Vivienne doesn't want reforms. The mages have more freedom and responsibility under her than they've ever had before. That is a reform. I think she's the classic Capricorn archetype. The goat that climbs the mountain, reaches the peak and is empowered. She wields power not out of self interest IMO but because she can handle it more wisely than others and serve society by keeping it on track. I don't think of the Circles as prisons. I think Vivienne will set a good example for mages. She approves if a mage Herald says that's what they intend to do when they become Inquisitor- I think she'll hold herself to an even higher standard. 1. More freedom's not freedom. And I suppose only the obedient one get more freedom, who able to lick her boots. 2. She's a simple self-interested power hungry person. And too close-minded to be wise. A most dangerous person with political power. She doesn't simply know the Game, she enjoys the Game. 3. Whatever you think, the Circles are prisons. And again: if you think, the mages must be separated and closed, because they're dangerous, then Vivienne just as dangerous as every average mage. According to you, a walking bomb... there's no higher standard. When we met with her, she played with her power just demonstrate to the Inquisitor, how great is she. Well... my Inquisitors weren't fascinated.
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 2, 2018 0:42:34 GMT
More freedom's not freedom. I support the Circle with reforms- not total freedom. This isn't a negative to me. I disagree. Simple as that. Aeonar is the mage prison. Not the Circle. She passed the Harrowing and that is my key standard for evaluating whether a mage may leave the Circle and live a relatively normal life. Even lead the Chantry. I never said that about mages. She harassed that noble because he made a racist remark about her before we get there. The genesis of that moment is not her wanting to be a show-off like a Magister.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 0:59:44 GMT
lilyonce 1. Vivienne doesn't support the normal life for the mages. Vivienne supports the prison-Circles. Again: not the Harrowing + freedom, she supports the Harrowing + imprison. She never ever talked about she would support any normal life to the mages. She firmly supported the Circles in prison form. That more freedom is still about that with permission, the mages able to left the Circles. The trustful ones. 3. Aeonar's the prison of prisons... the others simple prisons. You did mage Origin? Ugh! And the Calenhad Tower, one of the best Circles. 4. You support Vivienne. You don't need to say, that "mages are walking bombs". Vivienne who wants to close every mage, because they're dangerous. 5. That was a simple power demonstration, a fancy show. Whatever was in the past, at the moment she should just call the guards.
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 2, 2018 1:31:09 GMT
She used her magic to freeze the Marguis to frighten him into submission for insulting the Inquisitor when all she needed to do was tell the Magister that he is not to insult her guest and or escort him out. Cole gives that night more context and so I do think that she was getting back at him for what he said. It's not really about the Inquisitor IMO- defending their honor comes into it but also makes for a good excuse. I think she can justify her use of magic on the grounds that she saves the Inquisitor from attack. She says the Marquis forfeits any protections once he reaches for his sword. Vivienne doesn't support the normal life for the mages. We don't really know what she supports. The reforms are never detailed. My second favorite origin- and I wish my mage had been able to turn in both Jowan and Irving to Greagoir. It was it was a real damper on my roleplay to get sucked up in their shenanigans. And the radical Libertarians were the biggest problem that I see with the Ferelden tower. I support a mage as head of the Chantry- and all that amounts to is "mages are walking bombs"? If he were intent on attacking the Inquisitor, we don't know that the guards could stop him before a fight breaks out. She can justify her use of magic there it if she needed to, I think. But my point was she set that scenario up not because she's Magister-like but because of what he said about her. The idea that she will corrupt into a Tevinter style mage- I don't agree.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 2:01:42 GMT
lilyonce 1. You think that idiot would attack the Inquisitor? I don't think so. She ONLY demonstrated that she can do what she wants, and presented a fancy entree. Anyway, I know, that very unpopular, but I was not really fascinated, as I said. As a mage, my Inquisitor would able to do a similar thing. 2. If you talk to her, she refuses every freedom to the mages. She only believes in the prison-Circles. I never was friendly with her, so she showed her worse face. Her reforms never detailed, because she doesn't have any reforms. She only wants the Circles back as before. 2. My mage supported Jowan. Of course, he was his friend. I don't understand, why he just stayed with Irving... he should run with Jowan. Perhaps, because his phylactery was not destroyed... Uldred was a fool, personally, not the "libertarians". 3. You support a mage, who wants to close the mages, except her (and her friends). She thinks the mages are walking bombs. And if a mage wants to close in prisons every mage, this is the worst propaganda. 4. So: she didn't have enough guard to protect her ball? In that dark times? Is this responsible, you think? I didn't think, she would be a Magister-Divine, because she froze that bastard. I think she would abuse her power.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 2, 2018 3:16:21 GMT
Doesn't Cassandra call Divine Vivienne a tyrant. It's vague but if Cassandra is concerned I think I would be as well.
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 2, 2018 3:55:26 GMT
Sure the Marquis insults the Inquisitor, calls for a duel and reaches behind his back, his sword is on his right. To me it didn't look like the Inquisitor was in any danger of attack. Vivienne even calls the Marquis a foolish, foolish man, knows he is of little danger and goes to show it by humiliating him with words alone. Hardly a danger. Duels are consented to beforehand and have rules agreed to by both parties. I don't think this qualifies as a duel- it's just an attack. He reaches for a weapon before the Inquisitor can even respond- and the Inquisitor immediately backs away from him. I think she's justified, and this is a use of magic I approve of by any mage. And I don't think that's true. I think getting back at the Marquis is central to the whole scenario and then defending her guests- not showing off/getting off on her magic. Her use of magic can be justified on stopping him from attacking the Inquisitor. I think I've satisfactorily addressed this. It was an insult that cut her deeply IMO and I do like that she takes dignitary harm seriously. Hopefully she'll handle anything done to people under her as seriously. Agree to disagree. You think that idiot would attack the Inquisitor? He reached for his weapon like he was about to. This just isn't true. You don't have to... embellish because you don't think she goes far enough. A whole cabal of mages learned blood magic from him or from like minded Libertarians if I remember correctly. We come across one who tries to justify it at the start of Broken Circle. She never says this. And I don't see where she wants special rights just for herself. She doesn't seem particularly resistant to demons but she passed her Harrowing anyway, she left the Circle with permission like all mages can do, she was invited to the court and made a silly position into a real one of her own grit and tenacity. She made a way for herself with the same opportunity that's available to all mages. She's a role model to me. She can stop the Marquis before a guard can. Maybe she will- but I certainly don't think it will be in the name of magic supremacy if she does. She is just not cut in the mold of a Magister.
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Post by mike3207 on Jan 2, 2018 4:27:18 GMT
Leliana. I just trust her to bring the change the Chantry obviously needs.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 2, 2018 5:16:17 GMT
Hardened Leliana, radical reforms + ruthless competence, exactly what the Chantry needs. I think the more flexible shape she beats the Chantry into will weather any earthshaking revelations that relate to Andrastianism better than the other two as well. Assuming we discover any such.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 10:53:38 GMT
Hardened Leliana, radical reforms + ruthless competence, exactly what the Chantry needs. I think the more flexible shape she beats the Chantry into will weather any earthshaking revelations that relate to Andrastianism better than the other two as well. Assuming we discover any such. Inspired Leliana also not that flower as many peoples think. I guess, the only difference between hardened and softened Leliana is that Inspired Leliana asks before kills. She's still a bard and still knows the Game. And still has an army. Leliana can cause Chantry schism if she's unsure: if the Inquisitor doesn't finish her personal quest. In this case, Leliana doesn't fight for the Chantry.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 11:23:51 GMT
Are we seriously criticizing Vivienne for freezing a violent racist noble because he drew a blade on a guest in her own home? "abuse of power" pls Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with punishing/killing that bastard, I have the problem with her method, in that moment, what shows her nature. She not only made a fancy breathing ice sculpture in honour of the Inquisitor, he even forced him/her (her guest) to take a judgment in a ball... This was a test? And she really able to kill the bastard, just because the Inquisitor want it (we know, she don't kill him if she decides)? This is a gesture to the guest? I don't like it. Okay, perhaps, some Orlesian noble habit. (I don't like Orlesians: they are barbarians in fancy dresses – I prefer barbarians, who don't hide behind a mask.) Anyway, she only presented: she can use her magic in public, but the other mages must to closed. This is my biggest problem: she's a bloody hypocrite (and an elitist). (Racism? Toward Vivienne? Vivienne is a human, not an elf/qunari/dwarf. True, not noble born, and not Orlesian – a mage in fact. But we never ever saw in the game, there's racism exists between humans in Thedas.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 12:22:53 GMT
Doesn't Cassandra call Divine Vivienne a tyrant. It's vague but if Cassandra is concerned I think I would be as well. I suppose, yes. Cassandra and Leliana continue working together after any of them become Divine (at least, if I remember correctly, Cassandra in Trespasser offers her helping hand to Leliana, don't matter, they don't agree in everything about the politics), but no one of them working with Vivienne. I don't think, their reason is, she's a mage (ofc, not excluded, in the case of Cassandra, but Leliana?).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 17:07:08 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with punishing/killing that bastard, I have the problem with her method, in that moment, what shows her nature. She not only made a fancy breathing ice sculpture in honour of the Inquisitor, he even forced him/her (her guest) to take a judgment in a ball... This was a test? And she really able to kill the bastard, just because the Inquisitor want it (we know, she don't kill him if she decides)? This is a gesture to the guest? I don't like it. Okay, perhaps, some Orlesian noble habit. (I don't like Orlesians: they are barbarians in fancy dresses – I prefer barbarians, who don't hide behind a mask.) Anyway, she only presented: she can use her magic in public, but the other mages must to closed. This is my biggest problem: she's a bloody hypocrite (and an elitist).
(Racism? Toward Vivienne? Vivienne is a human, not an elf/qunari/dwarf. True, not noble born, and not Orlesian – a mage in fact. But we never ever saw in the game, there's racism exists between humans in Thedas.) It's only polite that she ask the victim what they would prefer to do to their aggressor. Your issue with this seems forced just because you dislike Vivienne. Like you would take issue with her breathing in your Inquisitor's general direction. For whatever reason you have a problem with this line "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before" doesn't matter. Her Divine epilogue proves that she's not against mages having significantly more freedom than ever before. And trying to tell me that she only cares to give her friends more freedom and responsibility is complete speculation because nothing in the game, not from her, not from other characters, nor from her Divine epilogue has specifically told us so or even been implied to be so. Bioware for dumb as fuck reasons has decided to make skin color a divide in the series. I blame Weekes almost entirely. He conveniently hid it away in a single banter and it's never made out to be a big deal anywhere else. Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark." Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull. My problem is: "in the new Circle": so they still prisoners, still can't have family, and and still can leave the Circle without permission, so they are still Chantry properties... and this made by a mage. This is unacceptable for me. One hope: she can't force every mage into her Circles finally. (So: she still didn't solved the problem...: the outsiders still apostates? What about their education: the College of Magi can handle it well in a very hostile environment?) And that "even before" means to me: soft prison, golden cage, less rape. Still not freedom. You're right about the skin colour problem. Until now, we don't hear about it in the series. (And probably you're right, I don't like her manners, she annoy me, just as Celene – I can't bear orlesian nobles...)
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yeah rip
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Post by yeah rip on Jan 2, 2018 18:52:53 GMT
Doesn't Cassandra call Divine Vivienne a tyrant. It's vague but if Cassandra is concerned I think I would be as well. Cassandra is far from infallible, her word is not exactly gold to me. Her views were far more in line with Vivienne's for the duration of the game, more than Leliana's anyway, so her heel-face turn in Trespasser was kind of out of nowhere. And I've seen no actual evidence of Viv being a tyrant in the game, despite what Cassandra said. On another note, it's said that Leliana's reforms left formal magical education in chaos, so how much good did she actually do for the mages?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 19:19:28 GMT
Doesn't Cassandra call Divine Vivienne a tyrant. It's vague but if Cassandra is concerned I think I would be as well. Cassandra is far from infallible, her word is not exactly gold to me. Her views were far more in line with Vivienne's for the duration of the game, more than Leliana's anyway, so her heel-face turn in Trespasser was kind of out of nowhere. And I've seen no actual evidence of Viv being a tyrant in the game, despite what Cassandra said. On another note, it's said that Leliana's reforms left formal magical education in chaos, so how much good did she actually do for the mages? It's not chaos: it's sovereignty, called freedom. It's hard but worth it. Cassandra much more open-minded than Vivienne. And at least not corrupted, don't enjoy the game. She can work together with Leliana, but perhaps, she doesn't like Vivienne's methods. To me: Vivienne typical tyrant.
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boxofscreaming
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 2, 2018 19:19:28 GMT
Leliana certainly. I couldn't endorse the continuation of a system that locks people up because they might be a danger. Might as well lock everyone up.
I think Cassandra is actually the conservative choice. Whatever Vivienne's policies, her appointment as divine would surely be the beginning of the end for the traditional chantry - it goes against everything they've taught for centuries and makes the schism with the Tevinter chantry obsolete.
Really, I don't find it plausible a mage would be elected divine, but obviously that can happen in the game.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 2, 2018 19:34:05 GMT
Leliana certainly. I couldn't endorse the continuation of a system that locks people up because they might be a danger. Might as well lock everyone up. I think Cassandra is actually the conservative choice. Whatever Vivienne's policies, her appointment as divine would surely be the beginning of the end for the traditional chantry - it goes against everything they've taught for centuries and makes the schism with the Tevinter chantry obsolete. Really, I don't find it plausible a mage would be elected divine, but obviously that can happen in the game. Yes, Vivienne not that believable. As a mage (tyrant) she's every pious Southern-Andrastian worse nightmare. A Magister-Divine. Not mentioned: as a mage, who doesn't trust her kind, the worst propaganda ever. Cassandra, yes, she's a progressive-conservative. But Vivienne (except, she's a mage) is the most conservative among them.
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