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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 16:12:18 GMT
shroomofdoom You know, I suspect that both Templars and Seekers need a bond with a spirit in order to use their skills. Holy Smite, for instance is quite similar to a spell (like the mage Mana Clash) and deals a big spirit damage to mages and Fade creatures. Which means that a Templar needs to control Fade energy, which is possible only if it comes from a spirit - just like the Spirit Healers have immense healing powers granted by a spirit. The idea of just "touched by a spirit" is inconsistent with the rest of the lore about the Fade and magic. Not to mention that the Seeker codex about their Rite has a "convenient" break just after the "touched by a spirit" sentence... If true (and all evidence points to this) It explains why mages were dismissed from service alongside Seekers and Templars after the Nevarran Accord, and perhaps why the Seeker and Templar rites never progressed since. I suspect that the original ritual was perfected with the help of mages, just like the Grey Warden ritual. Any mage involved in Seeker or Templar rituals could have spread the secret to other mages, irrevocably damaging both orders`s reputation. Politics is very often an ugly game with many inconvenient secrets sweeped under the rug.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 20, 2017 16:47:10 GMT
shroomofdoom You know, I suspect that both Templars and Seekers need a bond with a spirit in order to use their skills. Holy Smite, for instance is quite similar to a spell (like the mage Mana Clash) and deals a big spirit damage to mages and Fade creatures. Which means that a Templar needs to control Fade energy, which is possible only if it comes from a spirit - just like the Spirit Healers have immense healing powers granted by a spirit. The idea of just "touched by a spirit" is inconsistent with the rest of the lore about the Fade and magic. Not to mention that the Seeker codex about their Rite has a "convenient" break just after the "touched by a spirit" sentence... If true (and all evidence points to this) It explains why mages were dismissed from service alongside Seekers and Templars after the Nevarran Accord, and perhaps why the Seeker and Templar rites never progressed since. I suspect that the original ritual was perfected with the help of mages, just like the Grey Warden ritual. Any mage involved in Seeker or Templar rituals could have spread the secret to other mages, irrevocably damaging both orders`s reputation. Politics is very often an ugly game with many inconvenient secrets sweeped under the rug. I too got the distinct impression, that "touched by a fade spirit" is gentle euphemism for, bound to a fade spirit, happy abomination style. I try to tread carefully however, since bioware (and most games developers) do so love their retcons! So until it's more blatantly stated, I'll heir on the side of caution. But Its what I'm taking away from it. I can't recall what reason they gave as to why mages, couldn't go through with the process? Can you? As to Templars powers, I assumed they are derived from Lyrium, primarily, in much the same way as Shaper Valta, is able to employ magic like effects once connected with the Titan. I could ofcourse be wrong in this assumption. It would be handy if this theory isn't the case, as, perhaps then Templars could still perform their anti magic function, without addiction to Lyrium, which would be nice.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 20, 2017 17:01:31 GMT
You have made a very good social analysis about the "Mage Problem" in Southern Thedas. Something relatively accessible if you know how to look, or read through the DA codexes, lore, books and in-game behavior. And if it`s true that Bioware never wanted Dragon Age to be about darkspawn, most likely that the mage problem was core to the initial DA world concept, together with tensions between countries (Orlais vs Ferelden, Orlais vs Tevinter) and with factions (the Qun). Unfortunately, most players are not bothered to look past the few events Bioware have chosen to put center stage, (Uldred, Cullen, Anders, Meredith). These events are there to elicit emotional reactions from players. But they are also reducing a social problem to a personal, emotional one - a kind of "gut feeling". In Dragon Age southern Thedas most inhabitants never encountered a mage in person, except perhaps a Tranquil shopkeeper or a child taken to the Circle. It`s easy for them to imagine that adult mages are no longer human (like the Guild navigators from Frank Herbert`s Dune universe) because for most of the common folk they are practically invisible. In the case of Templars and Seekers, who are always selected from the most devout candidates, with unquestioned loyalty to the Chantry, their view of the mages is a matter of cognitive dissonance. It`s hard to kill a helpless mage during a Harrowing, or a child who is too frightened to go to the Circle and remain sane mentally, unless you are starting to think about mages like things, something else. It`s what most prominent Templars are saying in DA games. It`s easy to mistake their viewpoint as objective, because we as players cannot see how many times they killed a mage, and in what circumstances. Statistically, cases of violent abominations should be very rare, so most of the cases are just like those above. So Templars need such a "hardening" in order to remain sane, but this cognitive dissonance changes them so much that they became capable of monstrous acts. I once have met a squad leader from the French Foreign Legion and talked at length with him. He looked and behaved normal, except for his eyes. His gaze was that of a casual killer, of a person capable to kill anyone if ordered, without hesitation or questions. It`s not about combat training or self-confidence. But about shutting down any emotional response related to the act of killing. No professional soldier I`ve met had this gaze (and I did my military service). This is something you can "achieve" only by doing some horrible things. And it`s something likely to happen to Chantry Templars. The political part of the mage problem also mostly neglected by players. This is why I posted an analysis about it before. If you compare the viewpoint of the first Inquisitor, Ameridan about mages with the standard of for the Seekers, Templars and the Chantry, it`s obvious that something radical happened. Ameridan was not just a mage. He had a "spirit companion" meaning he most likely merged with a Fade spirit, and it seems that this was of no concern for Drakkon and the Seekers, because he was ASKED to lead the Inquisition. More than that, we learn from him that the rite of tranquility was never intended to exist in the first place as a "solution" for mages. What I think have happened in Ameridan`s absence was the current form of the Nevarran Accord, which was a fine political compromise, advantageous for everyone involved except the mages. The reasons I explained before: The Chantry leadership wanted to use the mages as weapons (ironically, it`s what Cullen says about them) against any outside enemy. They feared Tevinter and the Dales with their mages. But they needed a total, exclusive control of the mages. By achieving this, the Chantry has became an indispensable asset for the Emperor of Orlais, granting power not just against external enemies, but also against Orlesian nobles. By putting all mages under the Chantry control, no Orlesian noble was able to gather a mage strike force. Thedas is a medieval world, with every noble having his own army. Whith the creation of the Circles, the Chantry assured that no noble other than the Emperor has access to mages. Of course, the Divine, Grand Clerics and lead Seekers have a small price to pay for all these advantages: only their conscience, since they were no mages. It`s always easy to decide bad outcomes for others... So, in my opinion, the main obstacle to overcome in order to change the fate of mages in Southern Thedas is political. The social and cultural ones are relatively easier to overcome. We have the example of Anders and his free clinic, always full in DA2 Act1, and the protective way the Fereldan refugees reacted when they felt Anders threatened. If an enlightened Divine as Leliana uses healers as the first wave of mages to live among common folks, the public opinion will change in favor of mages. The big problem is the political angle. Which can be solved if mages will form guilds like any professionals in Middle Age, and there will be restrictions against political involvement from mages. With Academies and professional guilds, together with a better educational system the "mage problem" can be solved. I'm in agreement by and large, The political benefits of employing the circles can be gained while at the same time preventing the rise of an Imperium style magocracy, I suspect those two factors probably played heavily on the minds of those that wrote up and signed the Nevarran Accord. Whether it was quite so clear cut, or overtly stated is anyones guess. I suspect it was a synergistic convenience, with behind the scenes spear heading, from those that recognised the benefits, and largely unconcerned with the long term viability of the circles as a whole, hence the Chantry neer really had any impetus to affect significant change until forced into a position of having to do so.
I think you name it correctly, with cognitive dissonance, regarding the Templars. It doesn't make them evil or even misguided, it's simply what they would have to do in order to do the job they are trained for. Addiction to Lyrium wouldn't really have helped them be more well adjusted, but instead less so. I do empathise with what Sampson and many of the Templars say, in regards to the Chantry and their treatment at its hands. The reality is, that circles kinda sucked for Mages and Templars both.
I see the college of enchanters as being a step in the right direction, as an over arching, southern Thedas body of regulation on magical practice and study. I would like to see the Templars, in some form or another, in full possession of their abilities or abilities like them (aka Seekers), to resist magic, not as jailors, but as fully fledged members and brothers of the college of enchanters. Especially if they are similar in nature to seekers in their new iteration, they would have a vested interest in knowing and understanding both the nature of the spirits with which they are "touched" and the fullest potential of mages in general, so they might be better equiped to subdue and nuetralise rogue mages in southern thedas (in concert with other, non rogue, law abiding mages) This working together, not as jailor and jailed, but as equal partners in unified endeavour, with a calling that is more about forging a better, safer future, not in the the blood of the innocent, not from a place of fear, but from mutual respect and admiration, can only bring a lasting peace between the two factions. Much of the former hatred between the two groups could be overcome, The sources of shame for the Templars would subside into the past, the mages and Templars both would have purpose and ideals to which they can aspire, with pride and conviction. While mages might not wield political power in the traditional sense, they could exert influence over southern thedas politics in a more muted fashion, a reasonable compromise while still giving mages a hand in the shaping of the future they too are to be apart of. So long as avenues by which mages might seize power are restricted sufficiently to prevent a second imperium. I could imagine such a system working, with regional or local circles, becoming academies or schools as oppossed to prisons, from which, mages and templars both can serve their communties, communities they themselves are able to move about freely and interact with.
If one sides with the mages, in alliance and gets a softened Leliana Divine, the slides at the close heavily imply acceptance of the mages is already high for the college. The people of Thedas recognise that mages, made the choice to help save the world from the breach. Its the perfect platform for the college and the chantry to implement such change, with minimal rejection from the common people.
As you say, the political battlefield is the more dangerous one by far, and many elements would come into play, challenges, that with time would have to be contended with, and the manner in which they're dealt with will define the shape of mage freedom and college of enchanters as it goes forward. It might meet success and change the way magic is percieved and even used in Thedas, it might take alot of fighting and blood shed, to find the right path, there may be faltering along the way, but I feel that such is the road of progress, regardless of what it is, that is progressing.
That it might be hard and costly, is not reason enough to refuse to try, because ultimately, doing nothing to evoke change, will never resolve the underlying issues and in the long run, may prove more costly than making the attempt.
Hence, my vote for a softened Leliana for Divine, in the event of ALLIED mages. She alone knows how to deal with many of the poltical challanges that the nascent college is likely to come up against. Excellent summaries, guys! I just can add: that yes, as adrianbc said related the Anders and ferelden refugees, the people not nearly as dismissive, if they can see the positivity. If the negative propaganda fades, and the persecution cease, the people will be able to live together. Of course there will always be counterexample and fears, but this isn't a reason for a bad practice to be continued. About the Mage–Templar hatred: this is also depend on the propaganda. (Mostly.) Most of the mages capable to realize the danger of magic and spirits, even if can control his/her abilities, so I don't think, that wouldn't be able to cooperate with Templars, for the maintenance of order and security. And Templars? We know many example, when even the templars can't bear the oppressions anymore: Thrask and his group, and Starkhaven's Templars, Samson... Extreme cases: Meredith: youth trauma, which she was not able to recover from. She did not hate mages, she was paranoid. Alrik: He's not a Templar. He's a pervert bastard. Cullen: he did not hate the mages, just his bad experience with Uldred and the demons poisoned his mind. This PTSD and the Chantry's propaganda was enough, that he was able to stand by Meredith until the end. But Meredith's fate sobered him. (I just I mention him among the extreme cases only because always arises the question, that he said: "Mages cannot be treated like people; they are not like you." and "We have dominance over mages by divine right.") Anders: I don't think, that he hate the Templars, he helped to Keran to regain his job. He hate what they represents, and hate the prison-Circles. He even agreed, that the Circles the best place to learn, and know the magic's danger, and always criticized, when the mages abused their power. I think, he would be able to cooperate against the rogue mages, in other circumstances. Anders: Where did you learn your magic? I mean, you know my feelings on the Circle, but usually it's the only decent training a mage can get. Bethany: My father taught me. He was in the Circle once, trained there. But he got away. Anders: You don't know how lucky you were, to have someone who loved you and could help you. Most mages would kill for that. Bethany: You remind me of him. No, I don't want an Anders debate here again, just prove, that you're right: even in the "extreme cases", most of Mages and Templars would be able to accept the cooperations, and only rarely we can speak about a real hatred.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 20, 2017 17:07:04 GMT
I'm in agreement by and large, The political benefits of employing the circles can be gained while at the same time preventing the rise of an Imperium style magocracy, I suspect those two factors probably played heavily on the minds of those that wrote up and signed the Nevarran Accord. Whether it was quite so clear cut, or overtly stated is anyones guess. I suspect it was a synergistic convenience, with behind the scenes spear heading, from those that recognised the benefits, and largely unconcerned with the long term viability of the circles as a whole, hence the Chantry neer really had any impetus to affect significant change until forced into a position of having to do so.
I think you name it correctly, with cognitive dissonance, regarding the Templars. It doesn't make them evil or even misguided, it's simply what they would have to do in order to do the job they are trained for. Addiction to Lyrium wouldn't really have helped them be more well adjusted, but instead less so. I do empathise with what Sampson and many of the Templars say, in regards to the Chantry and their treatment at its hands. The reality is, that circles kinda sucked for Mages and Templars both.
I see the college of enchanters as being a step in the right direction, as an over arching, southern Thedas body of regulation on magical practice and study. I would like to see the Templars, in some form or another, in full possession of their abilities or abilities like them (aka Seekers), to resist magic, not as jailors, but as fully fledged members and brothers of the college of enchanters. Especially if they are similar in nature to seekers in their new iteration, they would have a vested interest in knowing and understanding both the nature of the spirits with which they are "touched" and the fullest potential of mages in general, so they might be better equiped to subdue and nuetralise rogue mages in southern thedas (in concert with other, non rogue, law abiding mages) This working together, not as jailor and jailed, but as equal partners in unified endeavour, with a calling that is more about forging a better, safer future, not in the the blood of the innocent, not from a place of fear, but from mutual respect and admiration, can only bring a lasting peace between the two factions. Much of the former hatred between the two groups could be overcome, The sources of shame for the Templars would subside into the past, the mages and Templars both would have purpose and ideals to which they can aspire, with pride and conviction. While mages might not wield political power in the traditional sense, they could exert influence over southern thedas politics in a more muted fashion, a reasonable compromise while still giving mages a hand in the shaping of the future they too are to be apart of. So long as avenues by which mages might seize power are restricted sufficiently to prevent a second imperium. I could imagine such a system working, with regional or local circles, becoming academies or schools as oppossed to prisons, from which, mages and templars both can serve their communties, communities they themselves are able to move about freely and interact with.
If one sides with the mages, in alliance and gets a softened Leliana Divine, the slides at the close heavily imply acceptance of the mages is already high for the college. The people of Thedas recognise that mages, made the choice to help save the world from the breach. Its the perfect platform for the college and the chantry to implement such change, with minimal rejection from the common people.
As you say, the political battlefield is the more dangerous one by far, and many elements would come into play, challenges, that with time would have to be contended with, and the manner in which they're dealt with will define the shape of mage freedom and college of enchanters as it goes forward. It might meet success and change the way magic is percieved and even used in Thedas, it might take alot of fighting and blood shed, to find the right path, there may be faltering along the way, but I feel that such is the road of progress, regardless of what it is, that is progressing.
That it might be hard and costly, is not reason enough to refuse to try, because ultimately, doing nothing to evoke change, will never resolve the underlying issues and in the long run, may prove more costly than making the attempt.
Hence, my vote for a softened Leliana for Divine, in the event of ALLIED mages. She alone knows how to deal with many of the poltical challanges that the nascent college is likely to come up against. Excellent summaries, guys! I just can add: that yes, as adrianbc said related the Anders and ferelden refugees, the people not nearly as dismissive, if they can see the positivity. If the negative propaganda fades, and the persecution cease, the people will be able to live together. Of course there will always be counterexample and fears, but this isn't a reason for a bad practice to be continued. About the Mage–Templar hatred: this is also depend on the propaganda. (Mostly.) Most of the mages capable to realize the danger of magic and spirits, even if can control his/her abilities, so I don't think, that wouldn't be able to cooperate with Templars, for the maintenance of order and security. And Templars? We know many example, when even the templars can't bear the oppressions anymore: Thrask and his group, and Starkhaven's Templars, Samson... Extreme cases: Meredith: youth trauma, which she was not able to recover from . She did not hate mages, she was paranoid. Alrik: He's not a Templar. He's a pervert bastard. Cullen: he did not hate the mages, just his bad experience with Uldred and the demons poisoned his mind. This PTSD and the Chantry's propaganda was enough, that he was able to stand by Meredith until the end. But Meredith's fate sobered him. (I just I mention him among the extreme cases only because always arises the question, that he said: "Mages cannot be treated like people; they are not like you." and "We have dominance over mages by divine right.") Anders: I don't think, that he hate the Templars, he helped to Keran to regain his job. He hate what they represents, and hate the prison-Circles. He even agreed, that the Circles the best place to learn, and know the mages danger, and always criticized, when they abused their power. I think, he would be able to cooperate against the rogue mages, in other circumstances. Anders: Where did you learn your magic? I mean, you know my feelings on the Circle, but usually it's the only decent training a mage can get. Bethany: My father taught me. He was in the Circle once, trained there. But he got away. Anders: You don't know how lucky you were, to have someone who loved you and could help you. Most mages would kill for that. Bethany: You remind me of him. No, I don't want an Anders debate here again, just prove, that you're right: even in the "extreme cases", most of Mages and Templars would be able to accept the cooperations, and only rarely we can speak about a real hatred. I think your quite right, that by and large, those Templars that survive the events of DA:I would be more inclined to readjust their views and approach the mages with an attitude of reconcilliation, I would hope that mages would do the same, though some I suspect are abit too prideful for their own good, but their voices would be few and far between. It's ironic that in many way, mages can be their own worst enemies, partly due to their attitudes as an aggreived party, similar in a fashion to the sentiment Sera ascribes (fairly accurately) to some Dalish.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 17:12:50 GMT
I too got the distinct impression, that "touched by a fade spirit" is gentle euphemism for, bound to a fade spirit, happy abomination style. I try to tread carefully however, since bioware (and most games developers) do so love their retcons! So until it's more blatantly stated, I'll heir on the side of caution. But Its what I'm taking away from it. I can't recall what reason they gave as to why mages, couldn't go through with the process? Can you? As to Templars powers, I assumed they are derived from Lyrium, primarily, in much the same way as Shaper Valta, is able to employ magic like effects once connected with the Titan. I could ofcourse be wrong in this assumption. It would be handy if this theory isn't the case, as, perhaps then Templars could still perform their anti magic function, without addiction to Lyrium, which would be nice. There is no reason of why a mage cannot go through the full rite. It`s only about one case of a mage who wanted to became a Seeker and failed, remaining in tranquil state. On the other hand, we have Wynne as an example of a mage who experienced an early strong bond with a faith spirit all of her own (since her first conscious contact with the Fade). This sounds more like a "wild" Seeker ritual. My guess is that lyrium works more like an "energy pool", granting more spell power, but not the ability of magic. If we use not just codexes but also the gameplay as evidence, Alistair or any templar Warden/companion are capable of the same skills without any lyrium. Which means that lyrium is not necessary to provide a skill like Holy Smite. In case of insufficient evidence and alternative explanations (a normal state in science) the best way is to choose the most credible explanation - the one which is best supported by all available evidence. For the Seeker/Templar abilities, the most likely explanation (the highest ranking one) is that both classes require a bond with a spirit. Which is not the same as being possessed/being an abomination, because the spirit doens`t assume complete control. It`s more like a new part of mind, which became integrated with the old structures. It`s how our mind evolved, with new emerging structures not replacing old ones, but working alongside and providing new functions, new viewpoints, perspectives. Sometimes the "old" mind and the one from the spirit gives alternative viewpoints about an external event, and the spirit`s viewpoint can prevail - like it happens to Anders sometimes. Or for any of us in case of an imminent danger, when the emotional system can take over. But most of the time the two parts (the human and the spirit) are working in synergy.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 20, 2017 17:32:06 GMT
I too got the distinct impression, that "touched by a fade spirit" is gentle euphemism for, bound to a fade spirit, happy abomination style. I try to tread carefully however, since bioware (and most games developers) do so love their retcons! So until it's more blatantly stated, I'll heir on the side of caution. But Its what I'm taking away from it. I can't recall what reason they gave as to why mages, couldn't go through with the process? Can you? As to Templars powers, I assumed they are derived from Lyrium, primarily, in much the same way as Shaper Valta, is able to employ magic like effects once connected with the Titan. I could ofcourse be wrong in this assumption. It would be handy if this theory isn't the case, as, perhaps then Templars could still perform their anti magic function, without addiction to Lyrium, which would be nice. There is no reason of why a mage cannot go through the full rite. It`s only about one case of a mage who wanted to became a Seeker and failed, remaining in tranquil state. On the other hand, we have Wynne as an example of a mage who experienced an early strong bond with a faith spirit all of her own (since her first conscious contact with the Fade). This sounds more like a "wild" Seeker ritual. But most of the time the two parts (the human and the spirit) are working in synergy.Ah, I thought I recalled some mention of an adverse reaction when a mage attempted the seeker ritual, but it's entirely possible my imagination made that bit up! As to your description, thats always how I've percieved a healthy or beneficial possession, or more apt term, melding. I always find myself frustrated at the resistance with which mages and the chantry approach study into fade spirits and their relationship with the peoples of Thedas and mages in particular. It feels so much like ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 18:00:20 GMT
As to your description, thats always how I've percieved a healthy or beneficial possession, or more apt term, melding. I always find myself frustrated at the resistance with which mages and the chantry approach study into fade spirits and their relationship with the peoples of Thedas and mages in particular. It feels so much like ignoring the elephant in the room. Exactly! Ameridan`s memories make a reference about his "spirit companion" which means the practice of a bond between a mage and a spirit was accepted as normal in his time by the Inquisition, since he was effectively asked to lead the order. I think that a conscious, unforced bond between a mage and a spirit can work quite well, and it`s what the Avvar mages and Rivaini Seers are using. The problem in case of possession (like in Uldred or Connor`s case) is that the mage is distressed in that moment, is acting emotionally, and the spirit takes over and is changed into a demon - or more precisely, into an emotional spirit. If the mage is calm and in control, like Wynne was when she first entered the Fade, the connection between the mage and spirit is very different and more like a merging. If my explanation is correct, the entire issue about demonic possession is more related to the poor (or rather lack of) training of mages concerning spirits and the Fade, which is done intentionally in the Circles. Propably because the Templars and the Chantry doesn`t want mages to know too much about the Fade, fearing the potential power, and the consequences. I think about Dreamers, for instance. Like Telana was, Ameridan`s love.
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Post by Zikade on Feb 20, 2017 18:48:45 GMT
Leliana
What is needed is change and she's certainly willing to do so. Even if she fails, at least she can shake things up, bring attention to important matters and plant ideas against the oppression and prejudice the Chantry breeds. At first I was with Cassandra because she would be... "less radical, easier to accept" and because "good things take time". Then I went: FUCK IT! If the system is rotten and abusive, then forget being gentle. Leliana might be idealistic but it seems like that idealism is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 19:07:37 GMT
Leliana What is needed is change and she's certainly willing to do so. Even if she fails, at least she can shake things up, bring attention to important matters and plant ideas against the oppression and prejudice the Chantry breeds. At first I was with Cassandra because she would be... "less radical, easier to accept" and because "good things take time". Then I went: FUCK IT! If the system is rotten and abusive, then forget being gentle. Leliana might be idealistic but it seems like that idealism is needed. If this situation were to applied in real life I would go Leliana but I just love the concept of how mages are being treated in Dragon Age so I went with Cass
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Post by Catilina on Feb 20, 2017 19:31:32 GMT
Leliana What is needed is change and she's certainly willing to do so. Even if she fails, at least she can shake things up, bring attention to important matters and plant ideas against the oppression and prejudice the Chantry breeds. At first I was with Cassandra because she would be... "less radical, easier to accept" and because "good things take time". Then I went: FUCK IT! If the system is rotten and abusive, then forget being gentle. Leliana might be idealistic but it seems like that idealism is needed. If this situation were to applied in real life I would go Leliana but I just love the concept of how mages are being treated in Dragon Age so I went with Cass Haha, you have a strange taste, but I have a feeling, that you will be happy: I think, Bioware will keep this line, because of more drama and tension, so, whatever you decided, if they planned more part of the DA, in DA4 will reign a semi conservative non-mage Divine, after Leliana/Cassandra/Vivienne died/defeated. Because easier. Or, they want to permanently close the Mage–Templar line, and we got a Leliana-kind Divine. And we will see, that the mages are already not so dangerous. (Not to be true, but I do not believe it, they want to deal with three decisions.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 19:39:09 GMT
If this situation were to applied in real life I would go Leliana but I just love the concept of how mages are being treated in Dragon Age so I went with Cass Haha, you have a strange taste, but I have a feeling, that you will be happy: I think, Bioware will keep this line, because of more drama and tension, so, whatever you decided, if they planned more part of the DA, in DA4 will reign a semi conservative non-mage Divine, after Leliana/Cassandra/Vivienne died/defeated. Because easier. (Not to be true, but I do not believe it, they want to deal with three decisions.) What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices
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Post by Catilina on Feb 20, 2017 19:46:34 GMT
Haha, you have a strange taste, but I have a feeling, that you will be happy: I think, Bioware will keep this line, because of more drama and tension, so, whatever you decided, if they planned more part of the DA, in DA4 will reign a semi conservative non-mage Divine, after Leliana/Cassandra/Vivienne died/defeated. Because easier. (Not to be true, but I do not believe it, they want to deal with three decisions.) What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices Meanwhile, I added the post, sorry, so on the other hand perhaps they want to permanently close the Mage–Templar line, and we got a Leliana-kind Divine. And we will see, that the mages are already not so dangerous. I think all three Divine must be dead/defeated, because they need ONE world, whatever you decided. Or, if we in Tevinter, they will just mention what happened in Southern Thedas, but there will be no significant difference in your game. So: our decision is not really going to matter. By the way, you're right, it was an interesting idea.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 19:58:58 GMT
What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices Meanwhile, I added the post, sorry, so on the other hand perhaps they want to permanently close the Mage–Templar line, and we got a Leliana-kind Divine. And we will see, that the mages are already not so dangerous. I think all three Divine must be dead/defeated, because they need ONE world, whatever you decided. Or, if we in Tevinter, they will just mention what happened in Southern Thedas, but there will be no significant difference in your game. So: our decision is not really going to matter. By the way, you're right, was an interesting idea. I think we won't be going back to Southern Thedas so at best the Divine will make a cameo and will be mentioned, we'll probably fix north like Tevinter/Nevarra/Antiva etc. so what you decided will probably be the fate of south
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 21, 2017 6:49:33 GMT
What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices So: our decision is not really going to matter.I think we will likely have Divine Victoria spoken of in loose terms. The chantry will likely be spoken of as "doing well, mending fences and reaching out to the people" or "In the throws of upheaval, fractious and finding little support amongst the people of southern Thedas" and those two will be linked to one or another, end game world states from DA:I. It's the same with the mages. The College of Enchanters happens in every possible end world state, as does a smaller Circle of Magi. Which Pretty much guarantees we'll have CoE vs CoM, at some point in the future.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 21, 2017 8:11:57 GMT
I agree with you that Loghain is probably one of the worst villains in the games (worst in the sence of evil, not badly written, he is very well written), but for me, the most evil deed was not hunting the Grey Wardens or getting Cailan killed, but selling innocent people into slavery, well knowing, what they will face in Tevinter. I don't really have the stomach to defend that one. I'll note that he really needed money, and that while money is not in and of itself more important than lives it can be used to save them, but that doesn't mean that my gut reaction to this one isn't "holy shit, really?!" The sickening irony behind Loghain selling Ferelden elves into slavery is that he hated Orlais for enslaving Fereldens. Really, Loghain? Tell me more on how awful Orlais was to your family!
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 21, 2017 12:22:57 GMT
What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices As far as I know, the magic being feared in Thedas was one of the core ideas for DA universe, before the "darkspawn solution" for the world ending. I`ll understand if Patrick Weekes wants to discard the darkspawn plot entirely, because having mostly mindless creatures as opponents is quite boring. Granted, Bioware tried to get away from the enlightening dialogues with darkspawn (based on Grrr!!! Argh!!! Hrrr!!! and other similar profound sentences) with the Architect and Corypheus, but let`s face it, the darkspawn are quite limited as a plot device. No negotiation, betrayal, dialogues, just good old zombie apocalypse style head-bashing. On the other hand, the magic as being dangerous has a lot to offer. I also like the idea, but I don`t like a forced stagnation about the mages in Dragon Age for the sake of keeping the original status quo because it sounds original and cool. Dragon Age is supposed to be a period of dramatic changes. So how can the whole mage problem be changed, while keeping the "magic is dangerous" part? Well, quite easily, judging by the way the events are heading with DA:I. We have learned about the Seeker ritual, which makes possible to practically make every mage safer, and EVERYONE NOT A MAGE A SEEKER. Which means that magic is no longer to be feared, and everyone can have a spirit companion and magical powers. All seems like the good old days before the Veil, so our dear friend Solas agrees that Thedas is quite close to what he wanted for his People and leave the Veil in place. Perfect utopia? Nah... Now we can imagine a different kind of danger threatening mages. Let`s say a powerful Fade creature, or creatures. Or even the Evanuris, somehow freed despite the Veil. And it could be also related to dragons and titans. And this "X-factor" is enslaving ONLY mages, like the Evanuris did before. So we are back again in square one, but with a different plot and for different causes. A bit similar to the way the plot changes during the original Mistborn trilogy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 14:55:36 GMT
What I mean by that line is ; for example in Witcher magic is highly regarded and mages are being worshipped until the last game, in Skyrim magic is casual as fuck for most of the time, but in Dragon Age it is being feared and magic wielders are locked in the towers. This is a very original idea and appeals to me. Semi conservative divine would be good for me but you take back what you said about Cass or Leliana dying they're my romance choices As far as I know, the magic being feared in Thedas was one of the core ideas for DA universe, before the "darkspawn solution" for the world ending. I`ll understand if Patrick Weekes wants to discard the darkspawn plot entirely, because having mostly mindless creatures as opponents is quite boring. Granted, Bioware tried to get away from the enlightening dialogues with darkspawn (based on Grrr!!! Argh!!! Hrrr!!! and other similar profound sentences) with the Architect and Corypheus, but let`s face it, the darkspawn are quite limited as a plot device. No negotiation, betrayal, dialogues, just good old zombie apocalypse style head-bashing. On the other hand, the magic as being dangerous has a lot to offer. I also like the idea, but I don`t like a forced stagnation about the mages in Dragon Age for the sake of keeping the original status quo because it sounds original and cool. Dragon Age is supposed to be a period of dramatic changes. So how can the whole mage problem be changed, while keeping the "magic is dangerous" part? Well, quite easily, judging by the way the events are heading with DA:I. We have learned about the Seeker ritual, which makes possible to practically make every mage safer, and EVERYONE NOT A MAGE A SEEKER. Which means that magic is no longer to be feared, and everyone can have a spirit companion and magical powers. All seems like the good old days before the Veil, so our dear friend Solas agrees that Thedas is quite close to what he wanted for his People and leave the Veil in place. Perfect utopia? Nah... Now we can imagine a different kind of danger threatening mages. Let`s say a powerful Fade creature, or creatures. Or even the Evanuris, somehow freed despite the Veil. And it could be also related to dragons and titans. And this "X-factor" is enslaving ONLY mages, like the Evanuris did before. So we are back again in square one, but with a different plot and for different causes. A bit similar to the way the plot changes during the original Mistborn trilogy. Wasn't the seeker ritual about reversing tranquility? I don't remember it being anything about spirit posession , but if it really is and what you're saying can happen I still wouldn't want that and I think Bioware also doesn't want it thats why we are moving away from southern thedas. They don't want to deal with mage-templar conflict bc it would get repetitive (btw I might've misunderstood your comment) we're probabla going to face qunari-tevinter war mostly while dealing with solas
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Post by sgtsteel91 on Feb 21, 2017 15:56:59 GMT
The conversation with Leliana about what she would do as Divine and the Chantry she wanted to make won me over.
What she wants to do with the Chantry and how it should act towards people all matched up with I wanted the Chantry to be. And I liked and agreed with the actions she took in both main game and Trespasser epilogue slides.
She's also probably the only Divine I would turn the Inquisition into an Peacekeeping/Honor Guard for, since she faces a lot of opposition and I want her to succeed.
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Post by tacsear on Jan 1, 2018 20:39:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 21:30:43 GMT
Leliana. The ending of the game with her as a divine actually fooled me into thinking I have achieved something good in the game... before Trespasser dialed everything back the way it was.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 1, 2018 21:38:56 GMT
Leliana. The ending of the game with her as a divine actually fooled me into thinking I have achieved something good in the game... before Trespasser dialed everything back the way it was. Leliana is the best, yes... but they prepared us to the next game, where will no matter anymore, who is our choice, they all will be only a side note/dead, nothing different. They will not build 3 different worlds...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 21:42:01 GMT
Leliana. The ending of the game with her as a divine actually fooled me into thinking I have achieved something good in the game... before Trespasser dialed everything back the way it was. Leliana is the best, yes... but they prepared us to the next game, where will no matter anymore, who is our choice, they all will be only a side note/dead, nothing different. They will not build 3 different worlds... That’s why I want either an ending or a long time leap after the next game. I am tired of preserving the status quo.
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 1, 2018 22:40:41 GMT
Vivienne. I support the Circle with some reforms and I like Vivienne's. She'll be better at the formality and politics of the position than Cassandra or Leliana IMO- and she's comfortable working within institutions where they are not. And a mage Divine is too good to pass up. And her Divine robes in the epilogue slides are the most gorgeous of the three.
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 1, 2018 23:11:13 GMT
Vivienne is the most conservative among them This is a selling point to me- not a negative. Rather, it's the cherry on top. She's fabulous.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 1, 2018 23:22:43 GMT
Vivienne is the most conservative among them This is a selling point to me- not a negative. Rather, it's the cherry on top. She's fabulous. You spoke about reforms. Vivienne doesn't want reforms. And she's very close-minded. But in many viewpoints, she's a Magister-Divine: a power-hungry mage. If you think, the Mages need to imprison, because they are dangerous, then Vivienne, with his power + political power, army and desire for more power, etc... the most dangerous person in Southern-Thedas...
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