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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 2:06:07 GMT
Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs in the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or? I honestly think it's hard to say, because we only really saw a broad reflection of policies of two Circles: Ferelden and Kirkwall, which were extremely different (and a single person's account of the policy of another, but one that seems to support the "Ferelden" approach if anything). And of the examples you gave...I don't think Wynne would be anyone to fear if I were to just pass her by in the streets...Vivienne, maybe, but I'd probably experience the same amount of fear if she wasn't a Mage. And Quentin, well yeah, he was a maniac (and one even surreptitiously supported by the local Circle's First Enchanter!), but even he didn't rack up his body count simply on account of being a Mage (doesn't excuse his actions, mind you). I think the purposes of the Circles, at least originally in the setting and to their ideal, were presented as sort of "mandatory Hogwarts". Mages aren't allowed not to go, but that's where they can go to as the boatkeeper in Origins said, "learn them some proper magics". And it seemed like most of those that did, actually preferred the life their, which is kind of surprising, considering the public view of their kind. The problem isn't the Circles themselves, I think, it's the isolationist approach (see Isolde and Connor, or even Bethany, who actually liked life in the Circle herself, even in Kirkwall of all places, if she goes, but didn't "deserve" to be taken from her family), and the Chantry's adopting the policy of Tranquility for failures (which, as we learned, was also not how they were meant to function).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 2:06:46 GMT
Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs in the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or? So that there are fewer Quentins on the streets, and to make sure the Viviennes are at least not going to have to Vivienne without the proper training. (I seem to recall you arguing that Vivienne is paranoid about demons, and that this makes her more vulnerable to them, but I don't recall you explaining how.) Everyone dangerous. So that there are fewer Quentin on the streets need an effective police. Seekers for example, not a crazy paranoid Knight-Commander and her impotent squad and useless tower. The demons know the weakness, and uses them well. This is paranoia and/or power hunger? No mattrer. Weakness is weakness. You said: ALL mages are dangerous, then Vivienne, Wynne, Morrigan, the Wardens, everyone's dangerous. And the Circle-system are not a solution. Failed.
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Post by opuspace on Jan 25, 2017 2:08:24 GMT
I agree that it's a problem that the Circles weren't really trying to figure out how to re-integrate the mages into society, but I'm not sure how they were supposed to solve it. Letting Harrowed mages go completely free and saying "accidents happen" when they inevitably do doesn't seem quite safe enough to me, we don't know if mages can become Seekers (and you need to be somehow "pure" to do the ritual anyway), and we don't know of anything else we could be trying. The Litany of Adralla was an excellent counter towards attempted possession but it required timing. A bit more research into it that allowed permanent protection might have been all that stood between mages and their freedom. True, according to the Seekers, tranquility was discovered when a mage tried to become a Seeker so we'll never know if a mage can undergo what Cassandra did. There have been cultures like the Rivaini seers, Avvar Augurs and Dalish Keepers who have survived outside of the Circles that could have provided more insight into how the groups handle cases of abominations. Interviewing them and sharing information (ideally when both parties are comfortable). What it all boils down to is reducing the collateral damage an abomination can inflict. If mages were trained alongside Templars, they could bolster and protect people, reducing the casualties that would come to a side with a magical disadvantage. More importantly, increased socialization with others can help mages learn to be more alert against subtle manipulation by demons. A strong base of emotional support could also make them less desperate and more mindful of the consequences of their actions compared to someone raised in an isolated environment and developing a sense of solipsism.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 2:09:11 GMT
It seems to me that wondering if everything you encounter that even might be a demon is a demon makes you less likely to fall into their traps.) It might protect you in that regard, but according to Solas, at least (again, something of a biased view), expecting a spirit to be a demon can actually make that spirit into a demon.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 2:13:37 GMT
Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs in the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or? I honestly think it's hard to say, because we only really saw a broad reflection of policies of two Circles: Ferelden and Kirkwall, which were extremely different (and a single person's account of the policy of another, but one that seems to support the "Ferelden" approach if anything). And of the examples you gave...I don't think Wynne would be anyone to fear if I were to just pass her by in the streets...Vivienne, maybe, but I'd probably experience the same amount of fear if she wasn't a Mage. And Quentin, well yeah, he was a maniac (and one even surreptitiously supported by the local Circle's First Enchanter!), but even he didn't rack up his body count simply on account of being a Mage (doesn't excuse his actions, mind you). I think the purposes of the Circles, at least originally in the setting and to their ideal, were presented as sort of "mandatory Hogwarts". Mages aren't allowed not to go, but that's where they can go to as the boatkeeper in Origins said, "learn them some proper magics". And it seemed like most of those that did, actually preferred the life their, which is kind of surprising, considering the public view of their kind. The problem isn't the Circles themselves, I think, it's the isolationist approach (see Isolde and Connor, or even Bethany, who actually liked life in the Circle herself, even in Kirkwall of all places, if she goes, but didn't "deserve" to be taken from her family), and the Chantry's adopting the policy of Tranquility for failures (which, as we learned, was also not how they were meant to function). My mage was in Fenrelden Circle, and found that terrible. There are no privacy, no life, constantly watching, this is madness! (This was my first origin...) Bethany about Circle (how she liked!): Bethany don't liked the Circle. Bethany wanted to calm down her family in her letter. She believed, that she is a burden. She wanted to live freely, as everyone. She wanted a family. How idiot would like to live locked up? (" My mother didn’t rise any stupid children…" Hawke to Varric, at Gallows... )
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 2:16:42 GMT
I agree that it's a problem that the Circles weren't really trying to figure out how to re-integrate the mages into society, but I'm not sure how they were supposed to solve it. Letting Harrowed mages go completely free and saying "accidents happen" when they inevitably do doesn't seem quite safe enough to me, we don't know if mages can become Seekers (and you need to be somehow "pure" to do the ritual anyway), and we don't know of anything else we could be trying. The Litany of Adralla was an excellent counter towards attempted possession but it required timing. A bit more research into it that allowed permanent protection might have been all that stood between mages and their freedom. True, according to the Seekers, tranquility was discovered when a mage tried to become a Seeker so we'll never know if a mage can undergo what Cassandra did. There have been cultures like the Rivaini seers, Avvar Augurs and Dalish Keepers who have survived outside of the Circles that could have provided more insight into how the groups handle cases of abominations. Interviewing them and sharing information (ideally when both parties are comfortable).What it all boils down to is reducing the collateral damage an abomination can inflict. If mages were trained alongside Templars, they could bolster and protect people, reducing the casualties that would come to a side with a magical disadvantage. Actually I'm fairly certain that the Chantry specifically prohibits research into such things, or at least lines of research that are possession-centric (especially relevant to the Rivaini/Avaar). To quote from Enchanter Wilhelm's Journal: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" I guess they feared such research would cause more abominations that it would prohibit. But I agree with you, research into how to prohibit and combat malevolent magical forces would be good course. But beyond that we have little agreement on 'how' this should be done.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 2:22:15 GMT
So that there are fewer Quentins on the streets, and to make sure the Viviennes are at least not going to have to Vivienne without the proper training. (I seem to recall you arguing that Vivienne is paranoid about demons, and that this makes her more vulnerable to them, but I don't recall you explaining how.) Everyone dangerous. So that there are fewer Quentin on the streets need an effective police. Seekers for example, not a crazy paranoid Knight-Commander and her impotent squad and useless tower. "Everyone is dangerous" is a decent argument in our world, or in a world like TES where magic is something anyone can learn rather than something you just are. It is rather less of one in a world where a few people are born with the ability to tell the laws of physics to get down on their knees and everyone else except for an even smaller number of people with plot armor is helpless against them. And this is enough to offset the fact that her paranoia is about them doing exactly that? I know I said that all mages are dangerous, and I freaking meant it too. Why do you think I argue that mages shouldn't be 100% free after their Harrowing? And if locking as many mages as we can into the Circles doesn't solve the problem, I don't see how having fewer mages out in the general population doesn't mitigate it.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 25, 2017 2:25:33 GMT
Hey guys, could you maybe make a thread and move this discussion to that thread instead of this one?
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Post by opuspace on Jan 25, 2017 2:27:24 GMT
Actually I'm fairly certain that the Chantry specifically prohibits research into such things, or at least lines of research that are possession-centric (especially relevant to the Rivaini/Avaar). To quote from Enchanter Wilhelm's Journal: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" I guess they feared such research would cause more abominations that it would prohibit. But I agree with you, research into how to prohibit and combat malevolent magical forces would be good course. But beyond that we have little agreement on 'how' this should be done. *Facepalm* ...I'm having flashbacks of abstinence programs...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 2:32:04 GMT
Everyone dangerous. So that there are fewer Quentin on the streets need an effective police. Seekers for example, not a crazy paranoid Knight-Commander and her impotent squad and useless tower. "Everyone is dangerous" is a decent argument in our world, or in a world like TES where magic is something anyone can learn rather than something you just are. It is rather less of one in a world where a few people are born with the ability to tell the laws of physics to get down on their knees and everyone else except for an even smaller number of people with plot armor is helpless against them. And this is enough to offset the fact that her paranoia is about them doing exactly that? I know I said that all mages are dangerous, and I freaking meant it too. Why do you think I argue that mages shouldn't be 100% free after their Harrowing? And if locking as many mages as we can into the Circles doesn't solve the problem, I don't see how having fewer mages out in the general population doesn't mitigate it. 1. Why would they hurt them? That fact, that you have a gun, means, that you kill your unarmed neighbor? Hardly. 2. Yes, her paranoia is a reason to became abomination. Remember Meredith! And his big red magical sword... The temptation always there. 3. Schools needed. Yes. And police and registration. There are exist, ow... I said that. These are NOT perfect. But better than Circles.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2017 2:32:25 GMT
Fair enough. My Hawke where Bethany went to the Circle, Hawke sided with the Templars (she changed her mind when Meredith tried to kill Bethany though, I swear, don't murder me, murderpope!), so I hadn't seen that scene. She definitely comes off in that scene a lot more...revolutionary than anything I remember, though. I do know that if you save the runaway from Anders in Act II (after also saving her from Alrik) and send her back to the Circle, she'll mention Bethany actually seeing good in the Circle at that time, and there are a couple other references to her taking on students and living the peaceful life she'd wanted there. Unfortunately, I don't have any links to videos handy, so all I can surmise is that Hawke's influence by siding with him changed her mind to some degree (sort of like being a Friend/Rival can change Merrill's opinion on her ends-justify-the-means outlook on life). With that in mind, I'm also curious if that video is Friend or Rival Bethany (what monster could play Bethany-Rival)?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 2:37:40 GMT
Fair enough. My Hawke where Bethany went to the Circle, Hawke sided with the Templars (she changed her mind when Meredith tried to kill Bethany though, I swear, don't murder me, murderpope!), so I hadn't seen that scene. She definitely comes off in that scene a lot more...revolutionary than anything I remember, though. I do know that if you save the runaway from Anders in Act II (after also saving her from Alrik) and send her back to the Circle, she'll mention Bethany actually seeing good in the Circle at that time, and there are a couple other references to her taking on students and living the peaceful life she'd wanted there. Unfortunately, I don't have any links to videos handy, so all I can surmise is that Hawke's influence by siding with him changed her mind to some degree (sort of like being a Friend/Rival can change Merrill's opinion on her ends-justify-the-means outlook on life). With that in mind, I'm also curious if that video is Friend or Rival Bethany (what monster could play Bethany-Rival)? Who that cruel, who send anyone in Kirkwall's Circle? Karl tranquilized probably because of an attempt to escape, after this experience was unimaginable, that my Hawke send Ella (anyone) back... we just saved her. Bethany liked her, why Hawke would want to hurt her? 100% friendship. (This character was firend with everyone, even Fenris and this idiot princeling)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 2:42:27 GMT
Hey guys, could you maybe make a thread and move this discussion to that thread instead of this one? I mean, most of the people who actually try to pick a Divine are presumably basing their decision on the same subject we're discussing... if we're going to have this discussion, maybe this is the place?
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 2:54:18 GMT
Hey guys, could you maybe make a thread and move this discussion to that thread instead of this one? I mean, most of the people who actually try to pick a Divine are presumably basing their decision on the same subject we're discussing... if we're going to have this discussion, maybe this is the place? Well it is, debatably, one of the most important things to look at seeing as how a war just erupted an all....and honestly, apart from Leliana, I can't think of any additional items on the political platforms of Vivienne and Cassandra that are not mage or templar related. Apart from "conservative" and "moderate conservative" we really have nothing specific on their policy changes that do not involve the resolution of the mage-templar war. All we get is general stuff like "balancing reform with tradition" and "mages have more freedom and power than ever before". But there is little mention on how these things are done. No examples, no edicts, no mention of how they are addressing the common folk or the passages from the Chant of Light. The only Divine who does get this is Leliana. So we really have little to go on if we really want to compare and contrast the policy changes of all three possible divines.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 2:55:40 GMT
"Everyone is dangerous" is a decent argument in our world, or in a world like TES where magic is something anyone can learn rather than something you just are. It is rather less of one in a world where a few people are born with the ability to tell the laws of physics to get down on their knees and everyone else except for an even smaller number of people with plot armor is helpless against them. And this is enough to offset the fact that her paranoia is about them doing exactly that? I know I said that all mages are dangerous, and I freaking meant it too. Why do you think I argue that mages shouldn't be 100% free after their Harrowing? And if locking as many mages as we can into the Circles doesn't solve the problem, I don't see how having fewer mages out in the general population doesn't mitigate it. 1. Why would they hurt them? That fact, that you have a gun, means, that you kill your unarmed neighbor? Hardly. Since you ask, I'm not sure what mages would deliberately do is scary enough that I'd lock them up for no other reason. But it's not all that we have, since mages can go abomination and don't need to want to. And either way, what I was trying to say is that "everyone is dangerous" is a major oversimplification of the issue. (And comparing it with a gun isn't a good argument either. You can take a gun away. Justinia's research seems to back up the idea that taking away magic isn't all that easy.) Can you give us any actual detail about how her paranoia about becoming an abomination is going to make her an abomination? (And can you explain what it has to do with Meredith using a force she didn't have any understanding of that turned out to be corruptive?) Then the only thing you'd change is making it so that the people who are way more dangerous than average and can go abomination at any time are loose in the general population and no longer being watched 24/7. How sure are you that that's better? The Litany of Adralla was an excellent counter towards attempted possession but it required timing. A bit more research into it that allowed permanent protection might have been all that stood between mages and their freedom. True, according to the Seekers, tranquility was discovered when a mage tried to become a Seeker so we'll never know if a mage can undergo what Cassandra did. There have been cultures like the Rivaini seers, Avvar Augurs and Dalish Keepers who have survived outside of the Circles that could have provided more insight into how the groups handle cases of abominations. Interviewing them and sharing information (ideally when both parties are comfortable).What it all boils down to is reducing the collateral damage an abomination can inflict. If mages were trained alongside Templars, they could bolster and protect people, reducing the casualties that would come to a side with a magical disadvantage. Actually I'm fairly certain that the Chantry specifically prohibits research into such things, or at least lines of research that are possession-centric (especially relevant to the Rivaini/Avaar). To quote from Enchanter Wilhelm's Journal: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" I guess they feared such research would cause more abominations that it would prohibit. But I agree with you, research into how to prohibit and combat malevolent magical forces would be good course. But beyond that we have little agreement on 'how' this should be done. I think I can agree with this too. It really might turn up something useful. Though I don't like the way Wilhelm was going about it. A tower in a village isn't the place. Adamant Fortress was a better choice.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 25, 2017 3:20:24 GMT
I like Leliana as Divine for thematic reasons. IRL I'd probably go for her primarily because I like her open policy towards other races, or Cassandra because moderation.
Ultimately I don't think it matters. It'll even out to some kind of status quo, and we'll read a deliberately vague codex entry about Divine Victoria while we're cruising around Tevinter.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 3:20:51 GMT
1. Why would they hurt them? That fact, that you have a gun, means, that you kill your unarmed neighbor? Hardly. Since you ask, I'm not sure what mages would deliberately do is scary enough that I'd lock them up for no other reason. But it's not all that we have, since mages can go abomination and don't need to want to. And either way, what I was trying to say is that "everyone is dangerous" is a major oversimplification of the issue. (And comparing it with a gun isn't a good argument either. You can take a gun away. Justinia's research seems to back up the idea that taking away magic isn't all that easy.)Can you give us any actual detail about how her paranoia about becoming an abomination is going to make her an abomination? (And can you explain what it has to do with Meredith using a force she didn't have any understanding of that turned out to be corruptive?)Then the only thing you'd change is making it so that the people who are way more dangerous than average and can go abomination at any time are loose in the general population and no longer being watched 24/7. How sure are you that that's better? Actually I'm fairly certain that the Chantry specifically prohibits research into such things, or at least lines of research that are possession-centric (especially relevant to the Rivaini/Avaar). To quote from Enchanter Wilhelm's Journal: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" I guess they feared such research would cause more abominations that it would prohibit. But I agree with you, research into how to prohibit and combat malevolent magical forces would be good course. But beyond that we have little agreement on 'how' this should be done. I think I can agree with this too. It really might turn up something useful. Though I don't like the way Wilhelm was going about it. A tower in a village isn't the place. Adamant Fortress was a better choice. Meredith feared from magic. And she used an unidentified magical artifact. Remember: Hawke's companions felt the Idol's power. Meredith also: she said, she isn't as weak, than this dwarf was... typical blood mage reaction. The power of Idol took her mind away. Just as a mage abomination, she lost herself. I like her fate. Great idea! Fenris feared from magic. He easily became a prey to Pride demon. Why would Vivienne better? Because of Harrowing? Oh, we never ever see a mage abomination, who succeed the Harrowing! And as you said: NOT NEED TO WANT. The demons can use the weakness. And the paranoia is a weakness, not a power. So: everyone are dangerous, even the Harrowing unnecessary, this can't save from anything. But okay, good for proof, that this mage can kill a demon. Why the police-school-registration trinity would less dangerous? Because: the parents wouldn't hiding their children (Connor). The despair and the constant persecution wouldn't force the mages to doing idiocy. Without closed, their minds have chance to remain healthy. In the Circles without prison guards they would be able to study and to rechearch calmly without stress. Why the Circles was more safe? People can not be closed because they possible can be dangerous... You're can't convince me, you know.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 3:46:25 GMT
Since you ask, I'm not sure what mages would deliberately do is scary enough that I'd lock them up for no other reason. But it's not all that we have, since mages can go abomination and don't need to want to. And either way, what I was trying to say is that "everyone is dangerous" is a major oversimplification of the issue. (And comparing it with a gun isn't a good argument either. You can take a gun away. Justinia's research seems to back up the idea that taking away magic isn't all that easy.)Can you give us any actual detail about how her paranoia about becoming an abomination is going to make her an abomination? (And can you explain what it has to do with Meredith using a force she didn't have any understanding of that turned out to be corruptive?)Then the only thing you'd change is making it so that the people who are way more dangerous than average and can go abomination at any time are loose in the general population and no longer being watched 24/7. How sure are you that that's better? I think I can agree with this too. It really might turn up something useful. Though I don't like the way Wilhelm was going about it. A tower in a village isn't the place. Adamant Fortress was a better choice. Meredith feared from magic. And she used an unidentified magical artifact. Remember: Hawke's companions felt the Idol's power. Meredith also: she said, she isn't as weak, than this dwarf was... typical blood mage reaction. The power of Idol took her mind away. Just as a mage abomination, she lost herself. I like her fate. Great idea! She gave into something that wasn't blood magic because of her fear of blood mages. That's hardly the same thing you're trying to persuade us Vivienne is vulnerable to. You're trying to persuade us that her paranoia about demons will lead her into a demon, even though we watch her not deal with something that might be a demon for all she knows (I'm referring to Cole) because of that paranoia. If there's weaknesses in her line of thinking, I hardly see how any of them will lead that way. Vivienne has been trained to handle her gift, and had her willpower trained to the point where she's not as easily hypnotized as Fenris was. The point of the Harrowing isn't that it hardens you against demons, its that it proves you can be put into a pretty bad spot and survive. And again: I'm not arguing that a mage who goes through it is immune. Why do you think I don't want Harrowed mages completely free to do as they please? You've previously conceded that the school needs to be compulsory until the mage has their powers under control. That means there will need to be guards, and that some parents will hide their children. (Especially parents like the Stannards, who know their child can't handle their powers.) And most of the mages who snap probably do so before their Harrowings, since a mage who isn't holding up fairly well probably won't be granted one. In short, the weakened Circles probably won't solve these problems. And they'll create more when all a mage has to do is pass the Harrowing and they can walk out into the world. Abominations in the Circle are a problem, but at least they form surrounded by mages and templars. An abomination who forms in the general public forms surrounded by peasants, or by towsnmen and guards. Or maybe even by knights, though that doesn't seem to help given how easily Connor can polish off Ser Perth if you abandon Redcliffe.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 3:51:28 GMT
You're can't convince me, you know. And I have no damn idea why I'm bothering. Though I'm not any more sure why you are.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 4:11:39 GMT
She gave into something that wasn't blood magic because of her fear of blood mages. That's hardly the same thing you're trying to persuade us Vivienne is vulnerable to. You're trying to persuade us that her paranoia about demons will lead her into a demon, even though we watch her not deal with something that might be a demon for all she knows (I'm referring to Cole) because of that paranoia. If there's weaknesses in her line of thinking, I hardly see how any of them will lead that way. Vivienne has been trained to handle her gift, and had her willpower trained to the point where she's not as easily hypnotized as Fenris was. The point of the Harrowing isn't that it hardens you against demons, its that it proves you can be put into a pretty bad spot and survive. And again: I'm not arguing that a mage who goes through it is immune. Why do you think I don't want Harrowed mages completely free to do as they please? You've previously conceded that the school needs to be compulsory until the mage has their powers under control. That means there will need to be guards, and that some parents will hide their children. (Especially parents like the Stannards, who know their child can't handle their powers.) And most of the mages who snap probably do so before their Harrowings, since a mage who isn't holding up fairly well probably won't be granted one. In short, the weakened Circles probably won't solve these problems. And they'll create more when all a mage has to do is pass the Harrowing and they can walk out into the world. Abominations in the Circle are a problem, but at least they form surrounded by mages and templars. An abomination who forms in the general public forms surrounded by peasants, or by towsnmen and guards. Or maybe even by knights, though that doesn't seem to help given how easily Connor can polish off Ser Perth if you abandon Redcliffe. Meredith fell victim to her own paranoia. She needed that red lyrium sword, and its power, because she want to more effective against the blood mages. Yes. Harrowing is totally useless. Just prove, that the mage can kill a demon. A ruthless test. I can accept that, but still useless. Need guards. Not prison-guards. Not same. Accidental abominations isn't a big problem. If they would so common, then Thedas wouldn't exist. In fact they are rare. The distress (for example the Templar threat) can make them more frequent.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 4:21:27 GMT
She gave into something that wasn't blood magic because of her fear of blood mages. That's hardly the same thing you're trying to persuade us Vivienne is vulnerable to. You're trying to persuade us that her paranoia about demons will lead her into a demon, even though we watch her not deal with something that might be a demon for all she knows (I'm referring to Cole) because of that paranoia. If there's weaknesses in her line of thinking, I hardly see how any of them will lead that way. Vivienne has been trained to handle her gift, and had her willpower trained to the point where she's not as easily hypnotized as Fenris was. The point of the Harrowing isn't that it hardens you against demons, its that it proves you can be put into a pretty bad spot and survive. And again: I'm not arguing that a mage who goes through it is immune. Why do you think I don't want Harrowed mages completely free to do as they please? You've previously conceded that the school needs to be compulsory until the mage has their powers under control. That means there will need to be guards, and that some parents will hide their children. (Especially parents like the Stannards, who know their child can't handle their powers.) And most of the mages who snap probably do so before their Harrowings, since a mage who isn't holding up fairly well probably won't be granted one. In short, the weakened Circles probably won't solve these problems. And they'll create more when all a mage has to do is pass the Harrowing and they can walk out into the world. Abominations in the Circle are a problem, but at least they form surrounded by mages and templars. An abomination who forms in the general public forms surrounded by peasants, or by towsnmen and guards. Or maybe even by knights, though that doesn't seem to help given how easily Connor can polish off Ser Perth if you abandon Redcliffe. Meredith fell victim to her own paranoia. She needed that red lyrium sword, and its power, because she want to more effective against the blood mages. That doesn't answer my actual objection to your assertion, though: how is Meredith deciding she needed a weapon powered by something she didn't understand the same as Vivienne (theoretically) giving into a demon because of her paranoia about demons?And you don't think that's a useful thing to test? Oh, and since your idea (as I understand it) also requires the mages to prove themselves: if you don't think the Harrowing is a useful test, what do you think a useful test looks like? And you don't think that a rare event that can wipe out a city is worth trying to prevent? And that maybe there's things that can distress mages that aren't templars? And you didn't even cover the idea that maybe what you suggest won't be that different from the Circle, at least until the mage proves themselves.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 4:33:49 GMT
Meredith fell victim to her own paranoia. She needed that red lyrium sword, and its power, because she want to more effective against the blood mages. That doesn't answer my actual objection to your assertion, though: how is Meredith decided she needed a weapon powered by something she didn't understand the same as Vivienne (theoretically) giving into a demon because of her paranoia about demons?And you don't think that's a useful thing to test? Oh, and since your idea (as I understand it) also requires the mages to prove themselves: if you don't think the Harrowing is a useful test, what do you think a useful test looks like? And you don't think that a rare event that can wipe out a city is worth trying to prevent? And that maybe there's things that can distress mages that aren't templars? And you didn't even cover the idea that maybe what you suggest won't be that different from the Circle, at least until the mage proves themselves. Paranoia is a weakness. You can't imagine, that this weakness can be used by a demon? Accidentally, in her dream, for example... as you said. And Vivienne is power hungry. Very. Brilliant chance for a demon. Useful test for what? To proove, that this mage is a good soldier for the Chantry? And if not, they will tranquilize him/her? Harrowing can be a test, if they goal to prove, that the mage able to resist to the demons. But you think, this is a simple survivor test... I said: this is a stupid contradiction: the writers wanted to present the mages as some very dangerous, accidentally world devastating things. But if they would be really such dangerous (accidentally!), then Thedas already would a big black hole.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 5:12:50 GMT
That doesn't answer my actual objection to your assertion, though: how is Meredith decided she needed a weapon powered by something she didn't understand the same as Vivienne (theoretically) giving into a demon because of her paranoia about demons?And you don't think that's a useful thing to test? Oh, and since your idea (as I understand it) also requires the mages to prove themselves: if you don't think the Harrowing is a useful test, what do you think a useful test looks like? And you don't think that a rare event that can wipe out a city is worth trying to prevent? And that maybe there's things that can distress mages that aren't templars? And you didn't even cover the idea that maybe what you suggest won't be that different from the Circle, at least until the mage proves themselves. Paranoia is a weakness. You can't imagine, that this weakness can be used by a demon? Accidentally, in her dream, for example... as you said. And Vivienne is power hungry. Very. Brilliant chance for a demon. If she has the willpower to block their hypnosis, the brains to not walk into an obvious trap, and is looking for both due to her paranoia against demons, I'd imagine the demons would have a hard time using her paranoia as a weakness. Demons can use paranoia about most things as a weapon, but using paranoia about yourself is hard to do. A useful test to prove that the mage can resist demons, yes. I think that's relevant, all things considered. And you didn't answer the question of what you think a useful test for that would be. Not if it only happens rarely. A city falling every few decades isn't a world ending threat. And hey, I doubt all abominations really can wipe out a city. Don't forget that Connor was a desire abomination, not, say a Rage or Hunger one. But I don't think the Chantry is arguing that mages are a world-destroying threat. Just that they're worth doing something about.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 5:57:07 GMT
Yes. You're right. Some mages moves independently (mostly crazy blood mages). So: you think, the Circles are useful? Walking bombs in the streets! Vivienne on the streets! Wynne on the streets! Quentin on the streets. Why the Circles exist? To torture the other mages, in Circle? Or? I honestly think it's hard to say, because we only really saw a broad reflection of policies of two Circles: Ferelden and Kirkwall, which were extremely different (and a single person's account of the policy of another, but one that seems to support the "Ferelden" approach if anything). And of the examples you gave...I don't think Wynne would be anyone to fear if I were to just pass her by in the streets...Vivienne, maybe, but I'd probably experience the same amount of fear if she wasn't a Mage. And Quentin, well yeah, he was a maniac (and one even surreptitiously supported by the local Circle's First Enchanter!), but even he didn't rack up his body count simply on account of being a Mage (doesn't excuse his actions, mind you). I'm not disputing that a non-mage can be dangerous, but being a mage automatically makes you not someone to mess with. Vivienne's not dangerous because she's a mage, but she'd be less dangerous if she wasn't one. And Quentin might have been caught earlier, or been overcome by a victim, if he hadn't been a mage. (I think one of his victims was a mage? He'd have been really unlikely to win that fight if he was some common thug with a knife.) And while this isn't something to write policy around because the specifics are probably rare, I think Quentin's necromancy is the only reason he was killing at all; he wasn't getting his wife back, but he was getting something he could fool himself into thinking was getting his wife back, and a non-mage wouldn't have gotten that.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 6:00:45 GMT
Not only is Leliana my ideal option, I consider her the only option, period. Cassandra is morally, charismatically and intellectually deficient; Vivienne only has the first problem, but man is it a doozy. A useful test to prove that the mage can resist demons, yes. I think that's relevant, all things considered. And you didn't answer the question of what you think a useful test for that would be. Have the Harrowing be fiddled with to involve a senior mage around who can save the apprentice if need be. Not difficult.
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