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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 18:08:46 GMT
I prefer Cassandra. I like Leliana's ideals, but I can't fathom how she could go about making such decrees without causing a second Chantry schism. Something similar happened in my church's history, in the 1950s the governing council of our denomination passed a motion to allow women to be ordained. Half the church broke away in revolt and established a new denomination. Moral reforms are severely limited in their effectiveness when forced upon the unwilling. An effective reformer must strike a balance between those who are afraid of any change and those who pursue it with reckless abandon, so as not to tear society apart. Cassandra's reforms will be more limited but are more likely to be successful. So I see her as the best chance for actual positive change. The biggest concern is her general discomfort with being in command and how effective she will actually be in her position. Still, I think she's bullish enough that she won't be cowed by any challenges to her authority and has people like Mother Giselle to help her. Viviene, I don't think will actually make anything better. So she's out. I see, that Cassandra's reforms can work (I have a world with her), but still keep the fear, and keep the old system. The end of a war is the best time for a huge change, because the people are happy and thankful. Everything better than a war. A schism? Whit who? Whit Vivienne? A MAGE? Seems Cassandra accepts Leliana's reforms. Some new Divine? Who? Where? Probably later, Divine Victoria defeated the evil. This is the best moment. Would be pity to waste for small steps. Would be a big wasted opportunity. Who knows when there will be another? On the other hand, the riots are natural such a circumstances. Yes, risky. But all change is risky.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 25, 2017 18:25:58 GMT
Hey guys, could you maybe make a thread and move this discussion to that thread instead of this one? I mean, most of the people who actually try to pick a Divine are presumably basing their decision on the same subject we're discussing... if we're going to have this discussion, maybe this is the place? Well, in my case, the mages are part of the decision in so far, that they are part of the bigger problems in Thedas (and our world of course): racism, predjudices and simply being snobbish. What I like about Leliana (I only had softened Leliana as Divine so far) is, that she at least try to give all races, gender and classes a chance. Everyone can take an office in the chantry and will be treated as equal. Someone said a few pages ago, that the chantry was mostly for humans and you get that feeling too, when you enter Orlais the first time with an elf, dwarf or Qunari and that chantry mother addresses you with disdain ('The maker would send no elf/dwarf... '). That is as snobbish and racist as it gets. About the mages: while I agree with Viv that mages had to be teached to use their talents, it could be done in a less hostile and repressing enviroment, where something like Kirkwall can never happen again. And building mage schools seems a good compromise there. So to make it short: I voted for Leliana, because as much as I like Cass and Viv (and I like both of them much more than Leliana characterwise, believe me), they both lack some imagination and (in Cass' case) leaderskills to do, what is necessary. Leliana will probably not succeed in changing the mindset of Thedas people over night, but she might be the reason for some people to start thinking and maybe over time things can change...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 18:30:43 GMT
I mean, most of the people who actually try to pick a Divine are presumably basing their decision on the same subject we're discussing... if we're going to have this discussion, maybe this is the place? [...] Leliana will probably not succeed in changing the mindset of Thedas people over night, but she might be the reason for some people to start thinking and maybe over time things can change... Exactly. This would be a wasted opportunity if not Leliana is the Divine.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 25, 2017 18:37:23 GMT
[...] So to make it short: I voted for Leliana, because as much as I like Cass and Viv (and I like both of them much more than Leliana characterwise, believe me), they both lack some imagination and (in Cass' case) leaderskills to do, what is necessary. Leliana will probably not succeed in changing the mindset of Thedas people over night, but she might be the reason for some people to start thinking and maybe over time things can change... Exactly. This would be a wasted opportunity if not Leliana is the Divine. Yep, changes take time and someone has to start somewhere. If we ever play a game that lays 500 years in the future, you might see, that Leliana is successful (or not - that isa possibility too). For example: without the brave women in 19th and early 20th century, who fought for women voting rights, I would probably not be able to vote today and those women never saw the change in their lifetimes. Same with the french revolutionaries, they never saw their right truly transformed, that was 100 years later. But we today can participate from that
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 25, 2017 19:18:10 GMT
Leliana (softened) Viv - never want to impose her beliefs on others (no matter what she would impose on others, she'd make sure that she would always live in an ivory tower and luxury) Cass would be my second choice but I think she'd be much happier not being Divine Yes, Cassandra is better than Vivienne, not so dangerous. And yes, she don't really want power – but this is why she more suitable... Yeah that's why I would back Cassandra most for Divine. She might not want the power but to me she's smart enough to use it right. She recognizes that changes are required but the institutions that Thedas has are still needed it's just their roles within the world need to change. She might not like it but she knows what needs to be done plus she is a strong determined woman. It's going to take something like that to bring everything back under control.They shouldn't jail mages just because they have magic but use the circles to teach mages how to use their powers responsibly so people aren't afraid of them. Which the majority of mages I think do. It was only a few that decided to go overboard with their powers which you only deal with in the Hinterlands in that opening section of DAI. I think most of the mages in Thedas are happy to just use their powers to help people of course. There are some that ge ta bit power hungry that's how they ended up ruling Tevinter so clearly there does need to be rules so things don't get out of hand but to just jail people because the fact they have powers others don't is wrong. If they use those powers irresponsibly to commit crimes then fair enough put them in chains or whatever but only if they're guilty of those crimes.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 19:40:07 GMT
I prefer Cassandra. I like Leliana's ideals, but I can't fathom how she could go about making such decrees without causing a second Chantry schism. Something similar happened in my church's history, in the 1950s the governing council of our denomination passed a motion to allow women to be ordained. Half the church broke away in revolt and established a new denomination. Moral reforms are severely limited in their effectiveness when forced upon the unwilling. An effective reformer must strike a balance between those who are afraid of any change and those who pursue it with reckless abandon, so as not to tear society apart. Cassandra's reforms will be more limited but are more likely to be successful. So I see her as the best chance for actual positive change. The biggest concern is her general discomfort with being in command and how effective she will actually be in her position. Still, I think she's bullish enough that she won't be cowed by any challenges to her authority and has people like Mother Giselle to help her. Viviene, I don't think will actually make anything better. So she's out. I see, that Cassandra's reforms can work (I have a world with her), but still keep the fear, and keep the old system. The end of a war is the best time for a huge change, because the people are happy and thankful. Everything better than a war. A schism? Whit who? Whit Vivienne? A MAGE? Seems Cassandra accepts Leliana's reforms. Some new Divine? Who? Where? Probably later, Divine Victoria defeated the evil. This is the best moment. Would be pity to waste for small steps. Would be a big wasted opportunity. Who knows when there will be another? On the other hand, the riots are natural such a circumstances. Yes, risky. But all change is risky. Risky is one word for it. But in truth you're as likely to get an angry backlash from overreaching as you are to make progress. Leliana's reforms are as likely to be undone as they are to actually change anything. The end of a war is also a time when people crave stability, not an upending their religious institution. The end of a war is not a good time to destroy the sense of stability they have only just regained. Too often people use the excuse of "necessary" extreme examples to promote dramatic but ultimately fruitless gestures. Changes that last and are most stable tend to be incremental ones, the small steps that add up through time, those made through compromise. I'd rather skip the dramatic sweeping failure and chaos to get straight to those small steps. As to who the schism would be with, it would be with conservative grand clerics, revered mothers, and their congregations, possibly leading to a splintering of the southern Chantry and a shattering of the south's religious unity.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 20:05:46 GMT
Yes, Cassandra is better than Vivienne, not so dangerous. And yes, she don't really want power – but this is why she more suitable... Yeah that's why I would back Cassandra most for Divine. She might not want the power but to me she's smart enough to use it right. She recognizes that changes are required but the institutions that Thedas has are still needed it's just their roles within the world need to change. She might not like it but she knows what needs to be done plus she is a strong determined woman. It's going to take something like that to bring everything back under control.They shouldn't jail mages just because they have magic but use the circles to teach mages how to use their powers responsibly so people aren't afraid of them. Which the majority of mages I think do. It was only a few that decided to go overboard with their powers which you only deal with in the Hinterlands in that opening section of DAI. I think most of the mages in Thedas are happy to just use their powers to help people of course. There are some that ge ta bit power hungry that's how they ended up ruling Tevinter so clearly there does need to be rules so things don't get out of hand but to just jail people because the fact they have powers others don't is wrong. If they use those powers irresponsibly to commit crimes then fair enough put them in chains or whatever but only if they're guilty of those crimes. Mages must be learn. I think, the Conclave can handle this. The fear from the mages must disappear, because the blind fear is just dangerous and don't help anything, but this is not guaranteed with Cassandra, who want the old institutions back. Mages not need collars, just as everyone. They need privacy and normal life, just as everyone, because they are people. Tevinter is an other culture, religion, beliefs, morals. Tevinter's problem is the slavery and human sacrifice. This is law and strongly moral question. I think, in Southern-Thedas this is unacceptable. What the mages would want? Blow up the world? Why? Because they capable to it? Subjugate the non-magicians? They would facing only each other, because they are not same. Southern-Thedas is not Tevinter. Cassandra's not bad, she isn't malicious or power-hungry, and want some change. As I said, I have world with her, but I strongly prefer Leliana.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 20:10:33 GMT
I see, that Cassandra's reforms can work (I have a world with her), but still keep the fear, and keep the old system. The end of a war is the best time for a huge change, because the people are happy and thankful. Everything better than a war. A schism? Whit who? Whit Vivienne? A MAGE? Seems Cassandra accepts Leliana's reforms. Some new Divine? Who? Where? Probably later, Divine Victoria defeated the evil. This is the best moment. Would be pity to waste for small steps. Would be a big wasted opportunity. Who knows when there will be another? On the other hand, the riots are natural such a circumstances. Yes, risky. But all change is risky. Risky is one word for it. But in truth you're as likely to get an angry backlash from overreaching as you are to make progress. Leliana's reforms are as likely to be undone as they are to actually change anything. The end of a war is also a time when people crave stability, not an upending their religious institution. The end of a war is not a good time to destroy the sense of stability they have only just regained. Too often people use the excuse of "necessary" extreme examples to promote dramatic but ultimately fruitless gestures. Changes that last and are most stable tend to be incremental ones, the small steps that add up through time, those made through compromise. I'd rather skip the dramatic sweeping failure and chaos to get straight to those small steps. As to who the schism would be with, it would be with conservative grand clerics, revered mothers, and their congregations, possibly leading to a splintering of the southern Chantry and a shattering of the south's religious unity. This is why the reforms happen before stability returns. This way, the new order is the only order, and backlash would only cause more chaos. There's also the celebrity power of the Inquisition and its support that can be exploited. In any case, the schism possibility is addressed in the epilogue slides. In short, Leliana deals with it.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 20:33:33 GMT
I see, that Cassandra's reforms can work (I have a world with her), but still keep the fear, and keep the old system. The end of a war is the best time for a huge change, because the people are happy and thankful. Everything better than a war. A schism? Whit who? Whit Vivienne? A MAGE? Seems Cassandra accepts Leliana's reforms. Some new Divine? Who? Where? Probably later, Divine Victoria defeated the evil. This is the best moment. Would be pity to waste for small steps. Would be a big wasted opportunity. Who knows when there will be another? On the other hand, the riots are natural such a circumstances. Yes, risky. But all change is risky. Risky is one word for it. But in truth you're as likely to get an angry backlash from overreaching as you are to make progress. Leliana's reforms are as likely to be undone as they are to actually change anything. The end of a war is also a time when people crave stability, not an upending their religious institution. The end of a war is not a good time to destroy the sense of stability they have only just regained. Too often people use the excuse of "necessary" extreme examples to promote dramatic but ultimately fruitless gestures. Changes that last and are most stable tend to be incremental ones, the small steps that add up through time, those made through compromise. I'd rather skip the dramatic sweeping failure and chaos to get straight to those small steps. As to who the schism would be with, it would be with conservative grand clerics, revered mothers, and their congregations, possibly leading to a splintering of the southern Chantry and a shattering of the south's religious unity. For now, people are happy. This is a chance. Everyone are free, there are no oppression. This is a good condition, a fair system. If anyone started a rebellion, because of fear, and want the old, wrong system back, the reformers can hope, that Leliana crushes the rebellion. But as I said: there are peace, and Divine Victoria defeated the evil with Herald of Andraste. This is a holy sign, most of people will be able to accept Leliana's reforms as Andraste's will. Later, maybe can be formed a war. But this isn't Leliana's fault, as I said, the system is right. And there is still the possibility of a peaceful solution, with compromise, when is must. But throwing away an opportunity, because it may not be likes everyone...
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 20:48:32 GMT
Risky is one word for it. But in truth you're as likely to get an angry backlash from overreaching as you are to make progress. Leliana's reforms are as likely to be undone as they are to actually change anything. The end of a war is also a time when people crave stability, not an upending their religious institution. The end of a war is not a good time to destroy the sense of stability they have only just regained. Too often people use the excuse of "necessary" extreme examples to promote dramatic but ultimately fruitless gestures. Changes that last and are most stable tend to be incremental ones, the small steps that add up through time, those made through compromise. I'd rather skip the dramatic sweeping failure and chaos to get straight to those small steps. As to who the schism would be with, it would be with conservative grand clerics, revered mothers, and their congregations, possibly leading to a splintering of the southern Chantry and a shattering of the south's religious unity. This is why the reforms happen before stability returns. This way, the new order is the only order, and backlash would only cause more chaos. There's also the celebrity power of the Inquisition and its support that can be exploited. In any case, the schism possibility is addressed in the epilogue slides. In short, Leliana deals with it. I know, and that epilogue defies believability for me.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 20:57:57 GMT
Risky is one word for it. But in truth you're as likely to get an angry backlash from overreaching as you are to make progress. Leliana's reforms are as likely to be undone as they are to actually change anything. The end of a war is also a time when people crave stability, not an upending their religious institution. The end of a war is not a good time to destroy the sense of stability they have only just regained. Too often people use the excuse of "necessary" extreme examples to promote dramatic but ultimately fruitless gestures. Changes that last and are most stable tend to be incremental ones, the small steps that add up through time, those made through compromise. I'd rather skip the dramatic sweeping failure and chaos to get straight to those small steps. As to who the schism would be with, it would be with conservative grand clerics, revered mothers, and their congregations, possibly leading to a splintering of the southern Chantry and a shattering of the south's religious unity. For now, people are happy. This is a chance. Everyone are free, there are no oppression. This is a good condition, a fair system. If anyone started a rebellion, because of fear, and want the old, wrong system back, the reformers can hope, that Leliana crushes the rebellion. But as I said: there are peace, and Divine Victoria defeated the evil with Herald of Andraste. This is a holy sign, most of people will be able to accept Leliana's reforms as Andraste's will. Later, maybe can be formed a war. But this isn't Leliana's fault, as I said, the system is right. And there is still the possibility of a peaceful solution, with compromise, when is must. But throwing away an opportunity, because it may not be likes everyone... You have an opportunity, which is why you should take it with Cassandra instead of gambling everything on something that may or may not pan out. Do you really think people are MORE open to the idea of mage freedoms after the Breach and Corypheus reminding them of everything the Chantry had always preached was wrong with magic and mages? If anything, those attitudes will be more firmly entrenched. People are NOT happy with magic or mages right now, after that reminder. "We should push for radical reform because it will all work out somehow eventually no matter the backlash" is not a compelling argument to me. Progress is not inevitable and it can be rolled back if pursued recklessly.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 21:06:33 GMT
This is why the reforms happen before stability returns. This way, the new order is the only order, and backlash would only cause more chaos. There's also the celebrity power of the Inquisition and its support that can be exploited. In any case, the schism possibility is addressed in the epilogue slides. In short, Leliana deals with it. I know, and that epilogue defies believability for me. So your choice isn't based on what happens, but rather on what you'd rather have had happened? For now, people are happy. This is a chance. Everyone are free, there are no oppression. This is a good condition, a fair system. If anyone started a rebellion, because of fear, and want the old, wrong system back, the reformers can hope, that Leliana crushes the rebellion. But as I said: there are peace, and Divine Victoria defeated the evil with Herald of Andraste. This is a holy sign, most of people will be able to accept Leliana's reforms as Andraste's will. Later, maybe can be formed a war. But this isn't Leliana's fault, as I said, the system is right. And there is still the possibility of a peaceful solution, with compromise, when is must. But throwing away an opportunity, because it may not be likes everyone... You have an opportunity, which is why you should take it with Cassandra instead of gambling everything on something that may or may not pan out. Do you really think people are MORE open to the idea of mage freedoms after the Breach and Corypheus reminding them of everything the Chantry had always preached was wrong with magic and mages? If anything, those attitudes will be more firmly entrenched. People are NOT happy with magic or mages right now, after that reminder. "We should push for radical reform because it will all work out somehow eventually no matter the backlash" is not a compelling argument to me. Progress is not inevitable and it can be rolled back if pursued recklessly. But... that's not the argument. The argument is that the Chantry's been gutted and the regressive forces are weaker than they've ever been, and possibly ever will be. Centrists who would normally be resistant to change will go along with it to ensure that stability will at least exist. And as for the attitude toward mages... well, that's why the Divine choice is influenced by the Inquisition's actions, and why what the Inquisition does with the mages and templars so heavily weights said choice. In any case, Leliana mentions in the Winter Palace that the "apostate" label lost a lot of meaning after the templars' own rebellion, so apparently public opinion isn't necessarily that heavily weighted against the mages.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 21:08:17 GMT
For now, people are happy. This is a chance. Everyone are free, there are no oppression. This is a good condition, a fair system. If anyone started a rebellion, because of fear, and want the old, wrong system back, the reformers can hope, that Leliana crushes the rebellion. But as I said: there are peace, and Divine Victoria defeated the evil with Herald of Andraste. This is a holy sign, most of people will be able to accept Leliana's reforms as Andraste's will. Later, maybe can be formed a war. But this isn't Leliana's fault, as I said, the system is right. And there is still the possibility of a peaceful solution, with compromise, when is must. But throwing away an opportunity, because it may not be likes everyone... You have an opportunity, which is why you should take it with Cassandra instead of gambling everything on something that may or may not pan out. Do you really think people are MORE open to the idea of mage freedoms after the Breach and Corypheus reminding them of everything the Chantry had always preached was wrong with magic and mages? If anything, those attitudes will be more firmly entrenched. People are NOT happy with magic or mages right now, after that reminder. "We should push for radical reform because it will all work out somehow eventually no matter the backlash" is not a compelling argument to me. Progress is not inevitable and it can be rolled back if pursued recklessly. Cassandra is a wasted opportunity. And Leliana, as I said, can be flexible, if must. This isn't gambling. Not mentioned, that Cassandra also wants big changes. The conservatives do not like any change, so the changes are always risks. Cassandra's baby steps also can provoke a war... so: why do not we play a high-stakes? (Small-stakes ain't worth the risks.) The Divine is Andraste's voice. This can not be ignored.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 25, 2017 21:26:37 GMT
It depends what sort of character you are playing. If you are playing a devout human Andrastrian then likely Cassandra would seem the best choice. She is maintaining the status quo for the most part but open to reform in order to reduce the worst abuses of the system. She does take the moral imperatives of the Chant seriously and so would likely expect the same of others in power. She is not much of a politician but that may be no bad thing. She seems to be able to keep Vivienne in order so that the College of Enchanters (if you sided with the mages) is at least given a chance to try something a bit different.
Both the other candidates are extremes that will lead to unrest. The "inspired" Leliana epilogue seems too good to be true, whilst the "tyrant" Leliana is plain scary. Doing away with the Circles entirely is all very well but how are young mages going to be trained? Is she really confident that mages are going to be able to entirely police themselves?
As for Vivienne, I just don't think it credible that they would vote a mage into the position of Divine, no matter how well connected she is. It flies in the face of everything we have previously been told about the dogma of the southern Chantry and is even more radical than having Leliana.
As a Dalish Inquisitor, however, I was happy to get Leliana for the post because she was undermining the entire Chantry with her changes and she restored the Canticle of Shartan. I had successfully disbanded the Templar order and put Briala in charge of Orlais, so having Leliana as Divine seemed very appropriate. She then suggested that I would be more effective going forward if I was working from the shadows, so I disbanded the Inquisition and left them to get on with it.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 21:27:41 GMT
I know, and that epilogue defies believability for me. So your choice isn't based on what happens, but rather on what you'd rather have had happened? Its what I based my decision on in the game, discounting knowledge of future events. It's what I would find likely ignoring that epilogue. And frankly, given Bioware's history of treating epilogue as rumor, I don't consider it as ironclad as the rest of the canon. That was not the argument I was responding to. Catilina's argument was that people were happy that the south was at peace and people would accept Leliana's policies as divine decree because the Inquisition supported her, with the assumption that any backlash could be dealt with later and stuff would be resolved just fine. Is there any canon statement that the "regressives" were gutted by the Conclave? Because Justinian herself was pretty pro-reform and I imagine a lot of her supporters were in attendance as well. As for mages, just because the term apostate lost weight doesn't mean people are less apprehensive about magic. That the architect of their recent misfortune was one of the old magisters probably didn't help mages' public image. I don't really see anything in recent events that could have actually improved the view of mages in most people's minds unless they allied with the Inquisition, which only goes so far and is of course determinant.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 21:45:05 GMT
You have an opportunity, which is why you should take it with Cassandra instead of gambling everything on something that may or may not pan out. Do you really think people are MORE open to the idea of mage freedoms after the Breach and Corypheus reminding them of everything the Chantry had always preached was wrong with magic and mages? If anything, those attitudes will be more firmly entrenched. People are NOT happy with magic or mages right now, after that reminder. "We should push for radical reform because it will all work out somehow eventually no matter the backlash" is not a compelling argument to me. Progress is not inevitable and it can be rolled back if pursued recklessly. Cassandra is a wasted opportunity. And Leliana, as I said, can be flexible, if must. This isn't gambling. Not mentioned, that Cassandra also wants big changes. The conservatives do not like any change, so the changes are always risks. Cassandra's baby steps also can provoke a war... so: why do not we play a high-stakes? (Small-stakes ain't worth the risks.) The Divine is Andraste's voice. This can not be ignored. Leliana is either a radical reformer or a flexible compromiser, which is it? Which of her reforms are you willing to sacrifice? Because if you're suggesting that Leliana will temper her reforms in the face of backlash then she isn't doing what you said she would and I wouldn't have that much of a problem with her. That is a false equivalency. The risk accompanying Cassandra's reforms is negligible compared to Leliana's wholesale upending of Chantry orthodoxy and extremely unlikely to provoke the kind of fundamental schism Leliana's would.
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Post by Syv on Jan 25, 2017 21:45:57 GMT
Vivienne or Cassandra.
But Leliana ? No. Bad writting, ridiculous ending, based on a fantasy. Golden age and mages not anymore feared ? Are yiu kidding me ? Today in the world we live in, there are people who fear others just because they have different color skin, and yet something totally inoffensive, but mages are totally integrated if we take into account all the issues they will necessarily have ? No. It would have been final fantasy, I would have said okay, but dragon age ? That game that seemed so intense, so intelligent, so grounded on realism while being high fantasy type ? No, it's hard to swallow.
Claiming being a champion of tolerance while neglecting the problems is and has never been adressing issues, which is what she did totally with the mages, ignoring their nature, the dangers that surround them. Oh let's just trust them and that's it. She lost any credibility in my eyes. I don't ever want her to rule anything. i'm not able to have an ending with her in any playthrough. And yet I adore Leliana.
But a leader who gives up reason for compassion and utopia to the detriment of common sense while at the head of a state is not a worthy leader. Utopia without common sense only led to disaster in history. Communism being maybe the best example.
Compassion nd Naivety leading the thoughts could also lead to disaster. Leliana with her decision reminds me of a bit Angela Merkel and her big mistake, probably one of the biggest mistakes for Germany in recent history. Merkel who has upset the balance of her country now totally shaken by her terrible decision ( and the whole EU too ) is probably the best example as to what happens when your only thinking is compassion or that type of thoughts, forgetting reality and issues.
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Post by Kei on Jan 25, 2017 22:02:01 GMT
They all literally end exactly the same way.
Divine Leliana has Vivienne literally remake the Circle to take advantage of the Inquisition's removal in order to start a mage civil war to destroy the College
Divine Cass has the mage civil war which her ending kind of implied
Divine Vivienne straight up allows the College to form anyway as thanks for helping the Inquisition. Retcons ahoy!
Guess we shouldn't be surprised that that situation is exactly the same. Now the argument is basically who you think looks best in the outfit.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 25, 2017 22:08:42 GMT
I would have been willing to believe that changes in favor of more mage freedom could have been implemented before but the events started with Anders and afterwards? I just cannot believe that commoners would be more open to magic and mages after those events.
I mean, look at it from the perspective of the common folk: A possessed apostate blows up a Chantry full of people with magic. The Circles fall and apostates begin roaming the land, attacking people with magic. An ancient magister tears open the sky causing demons begin to rain down and appearing in rifts throughout the land.
The common people such as in the Hinterlands are not likely going to remember mages and magic fondly. The people in Redcliffe took mages in and lost their homes when the mages choose to align with Tevinter mages and forced them out. Outside of Redcliffe, there were also these mages who maimed and murdered and reduced people who survived to refugees:
"The farmers who live in the Hinterlands are good folk. Many of them left Redcliffe village because they couldn't bear to be there anymore, not after the Blight and the walking dead left so many bad memories. Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways, and templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers."
"My wife Elaina sent off our field hands to stay with her family in the east, but there are a lot of poor people here with nowhere to go. We get more refugees every day: this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff."
The common people have seen the worst of magic and mages in the recent times: again, I just cannot people that they'd be more open to mages and magic following these events.
Note: Don't mistake me. I don't think templars would be well-recieved either by the common people given that some templars commited the same acts, albeit with different means, towards common people.
Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Hinterlands
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 22:15:53 GMT
Cassandra is a wasted opportunity. And Leliana, as I said, can be flexible, if must. This isn't gambling. Not mentioned, that Cassandra also wants big changes. The conservatives do not like any change, so the changes are always risks. Cassandra's baby steps also can provoke a war... so: why do not we play a high-stakes? (Small-stakes ain't worth the risks.) The Divine is Andraste's voice. This can not be ignored. Leliana is either a radical reformer or a flexible compromiser, which is it? Which of her reforms are you willing to sacrifice? Because of your suggesting that Leliana's will temper her reforms in the face of backlash then she isn't doing what you said she would I wouldn't have that much of a problem with her. That is a false equivalency. The risk accompanying Cassandra's reforms is negligible compared to Leliana's wholesale upending of Chantry orthodoxy and extremely unlikely to provoke the kind of fundamental schism Leliana's would. I said, later, IF REALLY MUST, and no more opportunity. But probably she able to repress any rebellion. I don't understand: Why the Leliana-supporter Inquisitor would be concerned about a possible Chantry schism? I think, if Inquisitor concern about a Chantry schism, then s/he support Cassandra. The Inquisitor, who suppor Leliana, want change. Radical change, not baby steps with Cassandra, but not want a magister-Divine Vivienne. If Leliana fail with the fight against the fundamentals (I don't think, she is strong, even softened. Softened meant, that she use sophisticated tools. Sophisticated tools not necessarily ineffective/weak tools, but the "murder pope" still less likely to be bloodthirsty than would be Vivienne), what's wrong with Chantry schism? Everyone says that Leliana as Divine is "rainbow" and too good to be true, but everyone's worried about a little war... This is a cruel world and some changes may requires some blood. No surprise. Thedas in war constantly.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 25, 2017 22:29:18 GMT
Leliana is either a radical reformer or a flexible compromiser, which is it? Which of her reforms are you willing to sacrifice? Because of your suggesting that Leliana's will temper her reforms in the face of backlash then she isn't doing what you said she would I wouldn't have that much of a problem with her. That is a false equivalency. The risk accompanying Cassandra's reforms is negligible compared to Leliana's wholesale upending of Chantry orthodoxy and extremely unlikely to provoke the kind of fundamental schism Leliana's would. Everyone says that Leliana as Divine is "rainbow" and too good to be true, but everyone's worried about a little war... This is a cruel world and some changes may requires some blood. No surprise. Thedas in war constantly. And that would very much endanger whatever changes that Leliana seek to make lasting if that is how she attempts to bring them about. How she tries to bring them about would significantly affect the chances of them remaining in effect and not simply being removed by her subsequent successors.
Let's say that "a little war" happens as a result of Leliana bringing these changes about in that manner: Her successor would likely scapegoat her changes, citing them as the source of all that misery and bloodshed brought about. That is how said changes would be remembered and that would be why later generations would be far more unlikely to want to have them reinstated in some fashion. They'd be associated with that war, with that misery and with that bloodshed.
Whenever said changes or similar ones might be suggested and advocated, they'd be met with: "Remember the time of Divine Victoria. Remember how the land bled in her wake, how she mocked the faith of the Chantry and discarded the words of the Maker in favor of her own? No, we saw what this led to. She proved exactly why such changes would only cause harm to the faith and its people."
History taking its course and being influenced by sentiments and Leliana as Divine Victoria might end up being remembered similar to Divine Amara III in this scenario.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 22:29:50 GMT
Vivienne or Cassandra. But Leliana ? No. Bad writting, ridiculous ending, based on a fantasy. Golden age and mages not anymore feared ? Are yiu kidding me ? Today in the world we live in, there are people who fear others just because they have different color skin, and yet something totally inoffensive, but mages are totally integrated if we take into account all the issues they will necessarily have ? No. It would have been final fantasy, I would have said okay, but dragon age ? That game that seemed so intense, so intelligent, so grounded on realism while being high fantasy type ? No, it's hard to swallow. Claiming being a champion of tolerance while neglecting the problems is and has never been adressing issues, which is what she did totally with the mages, ignoring their nature, the dangers that surround them. Oh let's just trust them and that's it. She lost any credibility in my eyes. I don't ever want her to rule anything. i'm not able to have an ending with her in any playthrough. And yet I adore Leliana. But a leader who gives up reason for compassion and utopia to the detriment of common sense while at the head of a state is not a worthy leader. Utopia without common sense only led to disaster in history. Communism being maybe the best example. Compassion nd Naivety leading the thoughts could also lead to disaster. Leliana with her decision reminds me of a bit Angela Merkel and her big mistake, probably one of the biggest mistakes for Germany in recent history. Merkel who has upset the balance of her country now totally shaken by her terrible decision ( and the whole EU too ) is probably the best example as to what happens when your only thinking is compassion or that type of thoughts, forgetting reality and issues. And Vivienne? A MAGE? Would be more believable? Magister-Divine... Haha! Leliana and the Golden Age? Now it has been proven, that it would be more bloody than the others (I still think, that Vivienne's rule would more bloody, and not only because she's a mage, rather because she is too power-hungry.)
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 22:32:13 GMT
Leliana is either a radical reformer or a flexible compromiser, which is it? Which of her reforms are you willing to sacrifice? Because of your suggesting that Leliana's will temper her reforms in the face of backlash then she isn't doing what you said she would I wouldn't have that much of a problem with her. That is a false equivalency. The risk accompanying Cassandra's reforms is negligible compared to Leliana's wholesale upending of Chantry orthodoxy and extremely unlikely to provoke the kind of fundamental schism Leliana's would. I said, later, IF REALLY MUST, and no more opportunity. But probably she able to repress any rebellion. I don't understand: Why the Leliana-supporter Inquisitor would be concerned about a possible Chantry schism? I think, if Inquisitor concern about a Chantry schism, then s/he support Cassandra. The Inquisitor, who suppor Leliana, want change. Radical change, not baby steps with Cassandra, but not want a magister-Divine Vivienne. If Leliana fail with the fight against the fundamentals (I don't think, she is strong, even softened. Softened meant, that she use sophisticated tools. Sophisticated tools not necessarily ineffective/weak tools, but the "murder pope" still less likely to be bloodthirsty than would be Vivienne), what's wrong with Chantry schism? Everyone says that Leliana as Divine is "rainbow" and too good to be true, but everyone's worried about a little war... This is a cruel world and some changes may requires some blood. No surprise. Thedas in war constantly. Slaughtering the opposition isn't what I call a desirable outcome. I find it unlikely Leliana would actually be able to do much short of compromising her reforms or slaughtering the dissenters to hold the Chantry together if a revolt took place, especially if regional grand clerics aligned themselves with secular rulers looking to have more control over their local chantries. If you're fine with a schism, by all means Leliana is the Divine for you, just realize that the full force of her reforms would mostly be limited to Orlais, the Divine's power base. And if her reforms remain unpopular then it's unlikely her successor will support them. This is what Cassandra meant when she said Leliana remembered Justinia selectively, Justinia wanted change but was unwilling to shatter the Chantry into a thousand pieces to do it. There's no guaranteed positive outcome if that happens or that anything she does will last.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 22:42:13 GMT
So your choice isn't based on what happens, but rather on what you'd rather have had happened? Its what I based my decision on in the game, discounting knowledge of future events. It's what I would find likely ignoring that epilogue. And frankly, given Bioware's history of treating epilogue as rumor, I don't consider it as ironclad as the rest of the canon.That was not the argument I was responding to. Catilina's argument was that people were happy that the south was at peace and people would accept Leliana's policies as divine decree because the Inquisition supported her, with the assumption that any backlash could be dealt with later and stuff would be resolved just fine.
Is there any canon statement that the "regressives" were gutted by the Conclave? Because Justinian herself was pretty pro-reform and I imagine a lot of her supporters were in attendance as well. As for mages, just because the term apostate lost weight doesn't mean people are less apprehensive about magic. That the architect of their recent misfortune was one of the old magisters probably didn't help mages' public image. I don't really see anything in recent events that could have actually improved the view of mages in most people's minds unless they allied with the Inquisition, which only goes so far and is of course determinant. Uh, I may support Leliana too, but its quite obvious that she has enemies in the Chantry. Otherwise I doubt she would utilize so many assassinations to quell unrest (if hardened). One of the priests encountered in her personal quest was miffed because she believed the Inquisition was turning people away from the "true" Chantry. That being said, if anyone could deal with the first signs of backlash, its a hardened Leliana. Its a whole other matter on if it includes riots or the populace at large, but even in that she has a chance. Wars tend to be a ripe opportunity for purging society of undesirables, either because said undesirables act out during chaos (i.e. Renegade templars, rogue apostates) or because it is easier to simply kill them because it is either convenient or it is politically desirable (ex. Freemen of the Dales). So as far as the purging of regressives.....well, the Inquisition actually killed a decent amount who may have otherwise have thrown in their lot with hyper conservatives priests. But Leliana is whole matter entirely depending on how much she has tried to integrate her reforms--for then she added new elements to the usual political game. It's no longer a Chantry of just humans anymore, but of different races from different backgrounds--most of which would be more inclined to support Leliana than conservatives. Especially if Briala was supported, and the elves of Orlais are now more able to fight for their rights. For all that conservatives may push back and utilize violence, so can others. Like the oppressed city elves, the largest population of which lies in Val Royeux. So can the sparse amount of surface dwarves, and various tal-vashoth mercenary groups. Which is to say nothing of the outside help that the reformed Chantry may get from interested parties that see opportunity like the Carta, qunari operatives that like the idea of possibly getting a ben-hassrath in the Chantry, etc. If they wish to bring about a bloody schism, then they have go in knowing that Leliana's Chantry actually has a very decent fighting chance of coming out on top. But it's a high stake gamble at this point. You either win big, or you loose big. So I guess it depends on if you are comfortable taking that gamble.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 22:56:32 GMT
I said, later, IF REALLY MUST, and no more opportunity. But probably she able to repress any rebellion. I don't understand: Why the Leliana-supporter Inquisitor would be concerned about a possible Chantry schism? I think, if Inquisitor concern about a Chantry schism, then s/he support Cassandra. The Inquisitor, who suppor Leliana, want change. Radical change, not baby steps with Cassandra, but not want a magister-Divine Vivienne. If Leliana fail with the fight against the fundamentals (I don't think, she is strong, even softened. Softened meant, that she use sophisticated tools. Sophisticated tools not necessarily ineffective/weak tools, but the "murder pope" still less likely to be bloodthirsty than would be Vivienne), what's wrong with Chantry schism? Everyone says that Leliana as Divine is "rainbow" and too good to be true, but everyone's worried about a little war... This is a cruel world and some changes may requires some blood. No surprise. Thedas in war constantly. This is what Cassandra meant when she said Leliana remembered Justinia selectively, Justinia wanted change but was unwilling to shatter the Chantry into a thousand pieces to do it. There's no guaranteed positive outcome if that happens or that anything she does will last.This is the point. Nothing is guaranteed. Cassandra's rule can bring war, just as Leliana's. This is politics. And the people can behave unpredictably. So: the risks is always there.
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