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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 22:58:32 GMT
]Uh, I may support Leliana too, but its quite obvious that she has enemies in the Chantry. Otherwise I doubt she would utilize so many assassinations to quell unrest (if hardened). One of the priests encountered in her personal quest was miffed because she believed the Inquisition was turning people away from the "true" Chantry. That being said, if anyone could deal with the first signs of backlash, its a hardened Leliana. Its a whole other matter on if it includes riots or the populace at large, but even in that she has a chance. Wars tend to be a ripe opportunity for purging society of undesirables, either because said undesirables act out during chaos (i.e. Renegade templars, rogue apostates) or because it is easier to simply kill them because it is either convenient or it is politically desirable (ex. Freemen of the Dales). So as far as the purging of regressives.....well, the Inquisition actually killed a decent amount who may have otherwise have thrown in their lot with hyper conservatives priests. But Leliana is whole matter entirely depending on how much she has tried to integrate her reforms--for then she added new elements to the usual political game. It's no longer a Chantry of just humans anymore, but of different races from different backgrounds--most of which would be more inclined to support Leliana than conservatives. Especially if Briala was supported, and the elves of Orlais are now more able to fight for their rights. For all that conservatives may push back and utilize violence, so can others. Like the oppressed city elves, the largest population of which lies in Val Royeux. So can the sparse amount of surface dwarves, and various tal-vashoth mercenary groups. Which is to say nothing of the outside help that the reformed Chantry may get from interested parties that see opportunity like the Carta, qunari operatives that like the idea of possibly getting a ben-hassrath in the Chantry, etc. If they wish to bring about a bloody schism, then they have go in knowing that Leliana's Chantry actually has a very decent fighting chance of coming out on top. But it's a high stake gamble at this point. You either win big, or you loose big. So I guess it depends on if you are comfortable taking that gamble. A hardened Leliana I think has a chance of holding the Chantry together by force. I'm just not sure that's a net positive. Leliana's problem is partly that giving more power to nonhumans in the Chantry that support her is precisely what might turn more humans against her. Nonetheless, I would expect her to be able to hold onto her authority in Orlais. It's reigning in further afield dissidents that I have doubts about. The Ben Hassrath might actually prefer a shattered Chantry, it would deprive the Divine of the authority to launch an exalted march against the Qunari and make the Thedosians less likely to cooperate with one another. Josephine was right that the Chantry really is the only thing capable of unifying them.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 23:10:44 GMT
One or two isolated cases of a city being destroyed, yes. And I'll note that you're already advocating for doing this for the mages who are most likely to turn. True, the Harrowed mages (or the mages who've passed whatever test you advocate) are less likely to turn, but they're also a much bigger threat should they do so. Connor was young and weak enough that Jowan didn't think he had the power to deliberately tear the Veil, and yet the abomination he turned into had the power to empty Redcliffe. If an abomination of Uldred's caliber (said abomination was a slightly stronger demon in a much stronger mage) had formed outside the Circle, where there was no door to shut on him, what might have happened? And while I don't believe that the question of what a mage might choose to do with their powers is enough to justify the Circles on their own, surely you concede that it's a factor. Okay, but what does this have to do with anything? We're given no reason to believe any of the three Divine Victorias let that continue. That's not really what I said. I specifically stated that you don't need to be a mage to be dangerous. Merely that being a mage means you are more dangerous than you would otherwise be, and more dangerous than most people in this setting (and just about anyone in real life) could dream of being. And? 1. My position still not moved. The whole Thedas already would a black hole, if this would a real danger. And still: one-two case not enough justify to imprison every mages – for me ofc. You don't need to be a threat to the world to be a threat to a whole bunch of people. I forget which part of that opinion covers whether or not the Chantry still preaches that magic is evil after DA:I. Yeah it is. It makes the illusion that much more convincing. I admit I'm getting entirely speculative here, but it is possible that he was only just insane enough to delude himself into thinking that he wound up making, a moving puppet, was his wife returned. If that was the case, he wouldn't have even tried what he did if he wasn't a mage. While we don't know whether or not Quentin knew how to do any of this, magic in this setting absolutely allows you to use illusions and rewrite memories. A normal cop has no ability to defend himself against that. If Quentin was doing that then only the Templars would have had a chance. Either way, we know Quentin had the ability to send demons at anyone who was investigating him and fight well beyond most of his victims due to his magic. This is why he's more dangerous than an ordinary serial killer, and it means that if he hadn't been a mage, Emeric might have caught him, or one of his victims might have killed him. (Especially the Circle mage he went after.) And again: why does it matter that Meredith stopped the investigation? I'm not defending her. I'm not defending most of what she does. What part of this conversation is she relevant to?
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 23:12:32 GMT
This is what Cassandra meant when she said Leliana remembered Justinia selectively, Justinia wanted change but was unwilling to shatter the Chantry into a thousand pieces to do it. There's no guaranteed positive outcome if that happens or that anything she does will last.This is the point. Nothing is guaranteed. Cassandra's rule can bring war, just as Leliana's. This is politics. And the people can behave unpredictably. So: the risks is always there. Nothing is guaranteed does not mean all risks are equal. Cassandra's course is ultimately unlikely to cause a war, even if it causes some unrest in the clergy's ranks. Leliana's chances of causing a war are far far greater, not even in the same league. Saying the fact that one has a small risk of causing a war justifies taking a far greater risk of starting one only makes sense if you really don't care whether there is a war or not. If that works for you, fine.
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Post by oyabun on Jan 25, 2017 23:13:37 GMT
Leliana. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. It is my belief that anyone can always come up with something to justify anything. But even if what you implied is true,the question is why there is the need of a justification to do it? why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us? If a person has the power to imprison innocent people and wants to do it,why he shouldn't?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 23:16:20 GMT
While we don't know whether or not Quentin knew how to do any of this, magic in this setting absolutely allows you to use illusions and rewrite memories. A normal cop has no ability to defend himself against that. If Quentin was doing that then only the Templars would have had a chance. Either way, we know Quentin had the ability to send demons at anyone who was investigating him and fight well beyond most of his victims due to his magic. This is why he's more dangerous than an ordinary serial killer, and it means that if he hadn't been a mage, Emeric might have caught him, or one of his victims might have killed him. (Especially the Circle mage he went after.) And again: why does it matter that Meredith stopped the investigation? I'm not defending her. I'm not defending most of what she does. What part of this conversation is she relevant to?That this was the reason that they not caught him. Because the investigation was stopped by Meredith.
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Post by KamenRyder on Jan 25, 2017 23:17:17 GMT
Leliana softened. My reason were that she seemed the most fair, wants to make the Chantry more tolerant and I didn't want to be with a Divine Cass.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 23:23:04 GMT
Leliana. There is nothing justify to imprison innocent people / kids. It is my belief that anyone can always come up with something to justify anything. But even if what you implied is true,the question is why there is the need of a justification to do it? why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us? If a person has the power to imprison innocent people and wants to do it,why he shouldn't? What? Who said, that anyone can do anything? Yes, everyone have moral duties. What's wrong with this? The freedom's hard, and requires responsibility. Noone deny that. Mages are people, not wild beasts. No more, than everyone. Just stronger.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 23:27:49 GMT
This is the point. Nothing is guaranteed. Cassandra's rule can bring war, just as Leliana's. This is politics. And the people can behave unpredictably. So: the risks is always there. Nothing is guaranteed does not mean all risks are equal. Cassandra's course is ultimately unlikely to cause a war, even if it causes some unrest in the clergy's ranks. Leliana's chances of causing a war are far far greater, not even in the same league. Saying the fact that one has a small risk of causing a war justifies taking a far greater risk of starting one only makes sense if you really don't care whether there is a war or not. If that works for you, fine. Of course I care, but sometimes it is worth the risk. Whether it's a war. And this is still just a risk. The war not started.
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Post by Syv on Jan 25, 2017 23:27:58 GMT
Vivienne or Cassandra. But Leliana ? No. Bad writting, ridiculous ending, based on a fantasy. Golden age and mages not anymore feared ? Are yiu kidding me ? Today in the world we live in, there are people who fear others just because they have different color skin, and yet something totally inoffensive, but mages are totally integrated if we take into account all the issues they will necessarily have ? No. It would have been final fantasy, I would have said okay, but dragon age ? That game that seemed so intense, so intelligent, so grounded on realism while being high fantasy type ? No, it's hard to swallow. Claiming being a champion of tolerance while neglecting the problems is and has never been adressing issues, which is what she did totally with the mages, ignoring their nature, the dangers that surround them. Oh let's just trust them and that's it. She lost any credibility in my eyes. I don't ever want her to rule anything. i'm not able to have an ending with her in any playthrough. And yet I adore Leliana. But a leader who gives up reason for compassion and utopia to the detriment of common sense while at the head of a state is not a worthy leader. Utopia without common sense only led to disaster in history. Communism being maybe the best example. Compassion nd Naivety leading the thoughts could also lead to disaster. Leliana with her decision reminds me of a bit Angela Merkel and her big mistake, probably one of the biggest mistakes for Germany in recent history. Merkel who has upset the balance of her country now totally shaken by her terrible decision ( and the whole EU too ) is probably the best example as to what happens when your only thinking is compassion or that type of thoughts, forgetting reality and issues. And Vivienne? A MAGE? Would be more believable? Magister-Divine... Haha! Leliana and the Golden Age? Now it has been proven, that it would be more bloody that the others (I still think, that Vivienne's rule would more bloody, and not only because she's a mage, rather because she is too power-hungry.) The fact is that Vivienne has enemies, her decisions had consequences, nowhere you can read that everyone accepted the idea of a mage as divine, unlike Leliana golden's age. The thing is that the chantry was totally weakened and desesperate, and the inquisition was the light during the chaos, thanks to the support of that same inquisition, yes, she was able to reach power and it seemed believable, as much as Cassandra or Leliana. The mainly thing that bothers me with Leliana 's ending it's that it erases any idea that her solutions could backfire, simply because it seemed to be the " tolerant and nice option ". This is ridiculous. A result doesn't depend only on that, especially if we focus on our history, there are a lot of factors that don't depend on how nice you can be ( or naive ) as a leader, that should condemn her solution. Re-read the whole lore about mages in DAO, you'll see that the writting with this line in question is totally uncomprehensible. Replay DAO and DAII. This is what I am doing, and the more I play, the more I can't understand Leliana's ending. Mens feared mages for centuries, and simply because Leliana said so, they would suddenly stop fearing mages ? Come on. It would require much more than that. You cannot change like that the mind of a whole continent, especially that the issues will remain the same whether with Leliana's tolerance or not. The worst is that Leliana isn't even willing to reflect, to think and to try to adress the numerous issues around mages. It's just let's trust them. At least Cassandra who is as nice as Leliana didn't forget reality and really tried to to work on thee issues. it's not easy as well. But nothing has ever been resolved by only claiming " let's just trust them " while doing nothing confronted to big issues. Let's be realistic, let's be objective a little bit. Not forgetting the reality behind mages doesn't mean you are mean to them, not being willing to ignore the dangers doesn't mean that you are a bad guy, on the opposite, you are a man who is responsible. It's a good thing to want to improve things for mages, but it is important to not ignore the rest. As simple as that, and that requires nuances, responsability. Ignoring the dangers, not trying to adress the same issuesthat poisoned so much the world is criminal.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 23:31:46 GMT
I've actually already had to answer most of this. I've already conceded that the mages are innocents who are being locked up, so claiming that I consider every mage a "potential murderer/criminal" isn't helpful. Likewise I'm not arguing that most mages are capable of bringing the world to an end, so that argument doesn't help either. And the bit about non-mages being dangerous too... I've lost track of how many times I've answered that one. Yes, non-mages can be dangerous, but you don't help anything by pretending that being a mage doesn't automatically make someone a heaping load more dangerous than they would otherwise be. A Tevinter Magister is basically an Orlesian noble with the additional problem of having a form of magic that gets stronger the more inhumanly they act. Quentin is basically a normal serial killer with the unfortunate complications of being pretty much impossible for his victims to fight off and being capable of setting demons on the people who want to stop him. And if I don't see that as enough to justify the Circles without the possibility of mages unwillingly becoming abominations thrown in, I'm still alarmed that pro-mages don't even seem to be thinking about it.
And the "indoctrinating mages about magic being a sin" thing is something we don't know they're still doing after DA:I (to the extent that they were, and even Catilina concedes they weren't all doing it) that I never approved of in the first place. And the inhibiting research thing is another thing I don't approve of, which we know Cassandra at least seems inclined to stop doing since she expressed an interest in following up on Pharamond's findings. (In the same vein as my last aside, Pharamond was given his orders by the Divine.) I thought we had, its just that without details we have littler confirmation in how the College of Enchanters are (presumably) handling 'mage problems' despite how the epilogue claims they are "finding new solutions to age old problems". Its like trying to find out how a Divine Cassandra presumably reduces abuse/corruption within the Circle, even though we have literally idea how she is doing this. It's not that we think it doesn't happen, but we are not sure in how they are handling it--let alone if they are successful at it. That being said, there is a small subset that honestly believes that the lack of fear in being brought to a Circle/living in the Circle reduces the general abomination rate. But its not like we can confirm this one way or the other. Leiliana seems to be trusting the mages themselves to handle criminal mages. And given the way they handled their renegades in the Hinterlands I don't know that I trust them to do it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 25, 2017 23:36:36 GMT
While we don't know whether or not Quentin knew how to do any of this, magic in this setting absolutely allows you to use illusions and rewrite memories. A normal cop has no ability to defend himself against that. If Quentin was doing that then only the Templars would have had a chance. Either way, we know Quentin had the ability to send demons at anyone who was investigating him and fight well beyond most of his victims due to his magic. This is why he's more dangerous than an ordinary serial killer, and it means that if he hadn't been a mage, Emeric might have caught him, or one of his victims might have killed him. (Especially the Circle mage he went after.) And again: why does it matter that Meredith stopped the investigation? I'm not defending her. I'm not defending most of what she does. What part of this conversation is she relevant to?That this was the reason that they not caught him. Because the investigation was stopped by Meredith. Well, that and because he can send demons at other people. And you seem to have not answered the entire rest of my post. Including the fact that there's a whole lot magic can be used for that can thwart the cops even beyond the shit we know Quentin to have been capable of.
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Post by oyabun on Jan 25, 2017 23:48:27 GMT
It is my belief that anyone can always come up with something to justify anything. But even if what you implied is true,the question is why there is the need of a justification to do it? why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us? If a person has the power to imprison innocent people and wants to do it,why he shouldn't? What? Who said, that anyone can do anything? Yes, everyone have moral duties Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us?
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2017 23:51:44 GMT
Nothing is guaranteed does not mean all risks are equal. Cassandra's course is ultimately unlikely to cause a war, even if it causes some unrest in the clergy's ranks. Leliana's chances of causing a war are far far greater, not even in the same league. Saying the fact that one has a small risk of causing a war justifies taking a far greater risk of starting one only makes sense if you really don't care whether there is a war or not. If that works for you, fine. Of course I care, but sometimes it is worth the risk. Whether it's a war. And this is still just a risk. The war not started."Just a risk"... That's like suggesting there's no problem putting a dictator in charge to do good things because it's "just a risk" he'll turn tyrant and abuse that power. After all "just a risk" means something isn't in all likelihood what will happen, right? ...It sounds like you're pretending something being "just a risk" is the same as it being not a risk at all at this point. If you're that desperate for radical change no matter the consequences, by all means Leliana is the right choice for you.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2017 23:53:20 GMT
]Uh, I may support Leliana too, but its quite obvious that she has enemies in the Chantry. Otherwise I doubt she would utilize so many assassinations to quell unrest (if hardened). One of the priests encountered in her personal quest was miffed because she believed the Inquisition was turning people away from the "true" Chantry. That being said, if anyone could deal with the first signs of backlash, its a hardened Leliana. Its a whole other matter on if it includes riots or the populace at large, but even in that she has a chance. Wars tend to be a ripe opportunity for purging society of undesirables, either because said undesirables act out during chaos (i.e. Renegade templars, rogue apostates) or because it is easier to simply kill them because it is either convenient or it is politically desirable (ex. Freemen of the Dales). So as far as the purging of regressives.....well, the Inquisition actually killed a decent amount who may have otherwise have thrown in their lot with hyper conservatives priests. But Leliana is whole matter entirely depending on how much she has tried to integrate her reforms--for then she added new elements to the usual political game. It's no longer a Chantry of just humans anymore, but of different races from different backgrounds--most of which would be more inclined to support Leliana than conservatives. Especially if Briala was supported, and the elves of Orlais are now more able to fight for their rights. For all that conservatives may push back and utilize violence, so can others. Like the oppressed city elves, the largest population of which lies in Val Royeux. So can the sparse amount of surface dwarves, and various tal-vashoth mercenary groups. Which is to say nothing of the outside help that the reformed Chantry may get from interested parties that see opportunity like the Carta, qunari operatives that like the idea of possibly getting a ben-hassrath in the Chantry, etc. If they wish to bring about a bloody schism, then they have go in knowing that Leliana's Chantry actually has a very decent fighting chance of coming out on top. But it's a high stake gamble at this point. You either win big, or you loose big. So I guess it depends on if you are comfortable taking that gamble. A hardened Leliana I think has a chance of holding the Chantry together by force. I'm just not sure that's a net positive. Leliana's problem is partly that giving more power to nonhumans in the Chantry that support her is precisely what might turn more humans against her. Nonetheless, I would expect her to be able to hold onto her authority in Orlais. It's reigning in further afield dissidents that I have doubts about. The Ben Hassrath might actually prefer a shattered Chantry, it would deprive the Divine of the authority to launch an exalted march against the Qunari and make the Thedosians less likely to cooperate with one another. Josephine was right that the Chantry really is the only thing capable of unifying them. You're right. As I said, its pretty big gamble. I would not be the least bit surprised if the Chantry redoubled its efforts in deposing of Leliana, and thence pushing back on all of her reforms. Likely even reinforcing its efforts to ensure non-humans are put back in their 'proper place'. Especially since we have Solas and his crusade to deal with which may herald an era of more extreme elven oppression depending on how he goes about his plans. (Thankfully Solas has a penchant for shadows and secrecy over armies and marches. Here's hoping he stays that way. )
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 25, 2017 23:57:13 GMT
So your choice isn't based on what happens, but rather on what you'd rather have had happened? Its what I based my decision on in the game, discounting knowledge of future events. It's what I would find likely ignoring that epilogue. And frankly, given Bioware's history of treating epilogue as rumor, I don't consider it as ironclad as the rest of the canon. Happily, Trespasser hammers home the epilogue slide in in-game canon, so there's no wiggle room. That was not the argument I was responding to. Catilina's argument was that people were happy that the south was at peace and people would accept Leliana's policies as divine decree because the Inquisition supported her, with the assumption that any backlash could be dealt with later and stuff would be resolved just fine. Is there any canon statement that the "regressives" were gutted by the Conclave? Because Justinian herself was pretty pro-reform and I imagine a lot of her supporters were in attendance as well. As for mages, just because the term apostate lost weight doesn't mean people are less apprehensive about magic. That the architect of their recent misfortune was one of the old magisters probably didn't help mages' public image. I don't really see anything in recent events that could have actually improved the view of mages in most people's minds unless they allied with the Inquisition, which only goes so far and is of course determinant. All political factions in the Chantry were gutted, and no one else trying to start their own movements had any real legitimacy. And there are mages who fight for the Inquisition regardless of what choice you make; In Hushed Whispers just brings the main rebel faction in. The fact is that Vivienne has enemies, her decisions had consequences, nowhere you can read that everyone accepted the idea of a mage as divine, unlike Leliana golden's age. The thing is that the chantry was totally weakened and desesperate, and the inquisition was the light during the chaos, thanks to the support of that same inquisition, yes, she was able to reach power and it seemed believable, as much as Cassandra or Leliana. The mainly thing that bothers me with Leliana 's ending it's that it erases any idea that her solutions could backfire, simply because it seemed to be the " tolerant and nice option ". This is ridiculous. A result doesn't depend only on that, especially if we focus on our history, there are a lot of factors that don't depend on how nice you can be ( or naive ) as a leader, that should condemn her solution. Re-read the whole lore about mages in DAO, you'll see that the writting with this line in question is totally uncomprehensible. Replay DAO and DAII. This is what I am doing, and the more I play, the more I can't understand Leliana's ending. Mens feared mages for centuries, and simply because Leliana said so, they would suddenly stop fearing mages ? Come on. It would require much more than that. You cannot change like that the mind of a whole continent, especially that the issues will remain the same whether with Leliana's tolerance or not. The worst is that Leliana isn't even willing to reflect, to think and to try to adress the numerous issues around mages. It's just let's trust them. At least Cassandra who is as nice as Leliana didn't forget reality and really tried to to work on thee issues. it's not easy as well. But nothing has ever been resolved by only claiming " let's just trust them " while doing nothing confronted to big issues. Let's be realistic, let's be objective a little bit. Not forgetting the reality behind mages doesn't mean you are mean to them, not being willing to ignore the dangers doesn't mean that you are a bad guy, on the opposite, you are a man who is responsible. It's a good thing to want to improve things for mages, but it is important to not ignore the rest. As simple as that, and that requires nuances, responsability. Ignoring the dangers, not trying to adress the same issuesthat poisoned so much the world is criminal. It's easy to miss, but in DA2, you can get a conversation with Cullen where he explains that the templars are losing their hold on public opinion, which is turning in favor of the oppressed mages. Leiliana seems to be trusting the mages themselves to handle criminal mages. And given the way they handled their renegades in the Hinterlands I don't know that I trust them to do it. And you expect a rebel army boxed in by a siege to do... what, exactly?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 23:58:06 GMT
And Vivienne? A MAGE? Would be more believable? Magister-Divine... Haha! Leliana and the Golden Age? Now it has been proven, that it would be more bloody that the others (I still think, that Vivienne's rule would more bloody, and not only because she's a mage, rather because she is too power-hungry.) The fact is that Vivienne has enemies, her decisions had consequences, nowhere you can read that everyone accepted the idea of a mage as divine, unlike Leliana golden's age. The thing is that the chantry was totally weakened and desesperate, and the inquisition was the light during the chaos, thanks to the support of that same inquisition, yes, she was able to reach power and it seemed believable, as much as Cassandra or Leliana. The mainly thing that bothers me with Leliana 's ending it's that it erases any idea that her solutions could backfire, simply because it seemed to be the " tolerant and nice option ". This is ridiculous. A result doesn't depend only on that, especially if we focus on our history, there are a lot of factors that don't depend on how nice you can be ( or naive ) as a leader, that should condemn her solution. Re-read the whole lore about mages in DAO, you'll see that the writting with this line in question is totally uncomprehensible. Replay DAO and DAII. This is what I am doing, and the more I play, the more I can't understand Leliana's ending. Mens feared mages for centuries, and simply because Leliana said so, they would suddenly stop fearing mages ? Come on. It would require much more than that. You cannot change like that the mind of a whole continent, especially that the issues will remain the same whether with Leliana's tolerance or not. The worst is that Leliana isn't even willing to reflect, to think and to try to adress the numerous issues around mages. It's just let's trust them. At least Cassandra who is as nice as Leliana didn't forget reality and really tried to to work on thee issues. it's not easy as well. But nothing has ever been resolved by only claiming " let's just trust them " while doing nothing confronted to big issues. Let's be realistic, let's be objective a little bit. Not forgetting the reality behind mages doesn't mean you are mean to them, not being willing to ignore the dangers doesn't mean that you are a bad guy, on the opposite, you are a man who is responsible. It's a good thing to want to improve things for mages, but it is important to not ignore the rest. As simple as that, and that requires nuances, responsability. Ignoring the dangers, not trying to adress the same issuesthat poisoned so much the world is criminal. Haha, the whole story filled by big bad black holes! Let's start with the mages. If they would be so dangerous, Thedas already would a memory fragment in the Maker's holy mind. No surprise, that Leliana's story is really weird. But Vivienne? Vivienne is a mage, okay, a court mage, and power-hungry enough, but still: how she electable to Divine? She not even a mother! Or at least a miserable sister. She is the one, who personify the fear of the pious Andrastian people: a magister-Divine. In general, a revolution come when the time is ripe for a change. So: not excluded, that the people's mind more open for a change. If you can belive in Vivienne's chance, I can believe in Leliana's chance.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 26, 2017 0:08:02 GMT
Its what I based my decision on in the game, discounting knowledge of future events. It's what I would find likely ignoring that epilogue. And frankly, given Bioware's history of treating epilogue as rumor, I don't consider it as ironclad as the rest of the canon. Happily, Trespasser hammers home the epilogue slide in in-game canon, so there's no wiggle room. That was not the argument I was responding to. Catilina's argument was that people were happy that the south was at peace and people would accept Leliana's policies as divine decree because the Inquisition supported her, with the assumption that any backlash could be dealt with later and stuff would be resolved just fine. Is there any canon statement that the "regressives" were gutted by the Conclave? Because Justinian herself was pretty pro-reform and I imagine a lot of her supporters were in attendance as well. As for mages, just because the term apostate lost weight doesn't mean people are less apprehensive about magic. That the architect of their recent misfortune was one of the old magisters probably didn't help mages' public image. I don't really see anything in recent events that could have actually improved the view of mages in most people's minds unless they allied with the Inquisition, which only goes so far and is of course determinant. All political factions in the Chantry were gutted, and no one else trying to start their own movements had any real legitimacy. And there are mages who fight for the Inquisition regardless of what choice you make; In Hushed Whispers just brings the main rebel faction in. The fact is that Vivienne has enemies, her decisions had consequences, nowhere you can read that everyone accepted the idea of a mage as divine, unlike Leliana golden's age. The thing is that the chantry was totally weakened and desesperate, and the inquisition was the light during the chaos, thanks to the support of that same inquisition, yes, she was able to reach power and it seemed believable, as much as Cassandra or Leliana. The mainly thing that bothers me with Leliana 's ending it's that it erases any idea that her solutions could backfire, simply because it seemed to be the " tolerant and nice option ". This is ridiculous. A result doesn't depend only on that, especially if we focus on our history, there are a lot of factors that don't depend on how nice you can be ( or naive ) as a leader, that should condemn her solution. Re-read the whole lore about mages in DAO, you'll see that the writting with this line in question is totally uncomprehensible. Replay DAO and DAII. This is what I am doing, and the more I play, the more I can't understand Leliana's ending. Mens feared mages for centuries, and simply because Leliana said so, they would suddenly stop fearing mages ? Come on. It would require much more than that. You cannot change like that the mind of a whole continent, especially that the issues will remain the same whether with Leliana's tolerance or not. The worst is that Leliana isn't even willing to reflect, to think and to try to adress the numerous issues around mages. It's just let's trust them. At least Cassandra who is as nice as Leliana didn't forget reality and really tried to to work on thee issues. it's not easy as well. But nothing has ever been resolved by only claiming " let's just trust them " while doing nothing confronted to big issues. Let's be realistic, let's be objective a little bit. Not forgetting the reality behind mages doesn't mean you are mean to them, not being willing to ignore the dangers doesn't mean that you are a bad guy, on the opposite, you are a man who is responsible. It's a good thing to want to improve things for mages, but it is important to not ignore the rest. As simple as that, and that requires nuances, responsability. Ignoring the dangers, not trying to adress the same issuesthat poisoned so much the world is criminal. It's easy to miss, but in DA2, you can get a conversation with Cullen where he explains that the templars are losing their hold on public opinion, which is turning in favor of the oppressed mages. And then an abomination blew up a Chantry. And then there was the nonsense in the Hinterlands: if the templars didn't come off looking good, neither did the apostates.Well, if they said they'd keep their own men under control, that's a thing I expect them to do.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 26, 2017 0:11:08 GMT
They all literally end exactly the same way. Divine Leliana has Vivienne literally remake the Circle to take advantage of the Inquisition's removal in order to start a mage civil war to destroy the College Divine Cass has the mage civil war which her ending kind of implied Divine Vivienne straight up allows the College to form anyway as thanks for helping the Inquisition. Retcons ahoy! Guess we shouldn't be surprised that that situation is exactly the same. Now the argument is basically who you think looks best in the outfit. It's entirely possible that when we finally meet the two factions, one will start off weaker or stronger than the other thanks to this Keep decision. Though if the only argument is who looks best in the outfit, I'd have to go with Viv. Leiliana and Cassandra look good in armor. They just look out of place in the Divine's robes.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 26, 2017 0:11:14 GMT
I thought we had, its just that without details we have littler confirmation in how the College of Enchanters are (presumably) handling 'mage problems' despite how the epilogue claims they are "finding new solutions to age old problems". Its like trying to find out how a Divine Cassandra presumably reduces abuse/corruption within the Circle, even though we have literally idea how she is doing this. It's not that we think it doesn't happen, but we are not sure in how they are handling it--let alone if they are successful at it. That being said, there is a small subset that honestly believes that the lack of fear in being brought to a Circle/living in the Circle reduces the general abomination rate. But its not like we can confirm this one way or the other. Leiliana seems to be trusting the mages themselves to handle criminal mages. And given the way they handled their renegades in the Hinterlands I don't know that I trust them to do it. When there was a war going on literally right outside their gate? When the only organization they had at the time was Fiona and a handful of supporters? (And its not like the Templars were doing any better with their renegades). Where they more concerned with what they believed to be an immanent templar incursion? That's hardly a position in which you can deal with all war criminals--not without heavy casualties and possibly leaving your main base of operations all the weaker.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 26, 2017 0:15:30 GMT
And then an abomination blew up a Chantry. And then there was the nonsense in the Hinterlands: if the templars didn't come off looking good, neither did the apostates. Leaving it a tie, which is why the Inquisition can choose the victor. Well, if they said they'd keep their own men under control, that's a thing I expect them to do. Ah, but they didn't, at least not in those words. It was "we pledge to aid any legitimate and impartial government in bringing these lawless apostates to justice." This necessitates that a government approach them for their aid in defeating any renegades, something that didn't happen.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 26, 2017 0:17:49 GMT
Of course I care, but sometimes it is worth the risk. Whether it's a war. And this is still just a risk. The war not started."Just a risk"... That's like suggesting there's no problem putting a dictator in charge to do good things because it's "just a risk" he'll turn tyrant and abuse that power. After all "just a risk" means something isn't in all likelihood what will happen, right? ...It sounds like you're pretending something being "just a risk" is the same as it being not a risk at all at this point. If you're that desperate for radical change no matter the consequences, by all means Leliana is the right choice for you. Correct. There are times, when the radical changes are necessary. How many changes happened in the world, and were risky, but succeed? And there are no "not risk at all". This situation simply not exist. Only exist better or worse decision, and not always the seemingly risky is the worse.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 26, 2017 0:21:23 GMT
Leiliana seems to be trusting the mages themselves to handle criminal mages. And given the way they handled their renegades in the Hinterlands I don't know that I trust them to do it. When there was a war going on literally right outside their gate? When the only organization they had at the time was Fiona and a handful of supporters? (And its not like the Templars were doing any better with their renegades). Where they more concerned with what they believed to be an immanent templar incursion? That's hardly a position in which you can deal with all war criminals--not without heavy casualties and possibly leaving your main base of operations all the weaker. Fiona promised to deal with criminal mages as part of her manifesto, because she knew that rejecting the Templars authority required the mages to do that job themselves. She knew at the time she wrote it she'd be handling both criminal mages and the Templars, and she promised anyway. And if you can argue that this still isn't the best evidence of whether Fiona's willing to help take down criminal mages, it's still the only evidence we have either way.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 26, 2017 0:32:55 GMT
What? Who said, that anyone can do anything? Yes, everyone have moral duties Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us? Tell me, what do you want whit this very idiot brilliant question!
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Post by xerrai on Jan 26, 2017 0:44:15 GMT
When there was a war going on literally right outside their gate? When the only organization they had at the time was Fiona and a handful of supporters? (And its not like the Templars were doing any better with their renegades). Where they more concerned with what they believed to be an immanent templar incursion? That's hardly a position in which you can deal with all war criminals--not without heavy casualties and possibly leaving your main base of operations all the weaker. Fiona promised to deal with criminal mages as part of her manifesto, because she knew that rejecting the Templars authority required the mages to do that job themselves. She knew at the time she wrote it she'd be handling both criminal mages and the Templars, and she promised anyway. And if you can argue that this still isn't the best evidence of whether Fiona's willing to help take down criminal mages, it's still the only evidence we have either way. It was to my understanding that she only gave a pledge of aid and did not outright state that she would hunt them. To quote: "We condemn those practitioners of magic who, through illness of mind or understandable but misguided anger at those who oppressed them, would use their Maker-given powers to threaten innocent lives, and we pledge to aid any legitimate and impartial government in bringing these lawless apostates to justice." And that seems pretty reasonable. There's a war going on and they are outright stating they don't support the actions of the apostates running amok (good for clarification/pr, if nothing else) and given that the mages/templar war is happening in the Hinterlands, its realistic for them to realize that they don't have the strength to handle them themselves....at east not without some help. But of course this was before all of the time-warping Tevinter-allying nonsense that the rebel leadership thought was preferable to elimination via templar raid. That pledge that was rendered ineffective when the local government failed to bring up the issue before the arl's forced expulsion and thence failed to be enter effect when the mages isolated themselves inside of Redcliffe on account of fearing an attack. Then the entire document itself was rendered null the moment Fiona and her idiotic goons straight up pledged themselves to a Tevinter Magister. While it was perhaps not the best approach to dealing with the apostates (but then again I would criticize a pledge to deal with them to be unrealistic promise that they very possibly cannot keep), I cannot really blame for dealing with wanting to deal with the literal war going on right outside their HQ.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 26, 2017 1:03:58 GMT
That this was the reason that they not caught him. Because the investigation was stopped by Meredith. Well, that and because he can send demons at other people. And you seem to have not answered the entire rest of my post. Including the fact that there's a whole lot magic can be used for that can thwart the cops even beyond the shit we know Quentin to have been capable of. This Quentin is a very talented mage! Why does not he rule the world? Or at least to stopped Hawke? ... Yes, I know. he don't wanted it.
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