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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 4, 2017 20:58:26 GMT
I'm all for promoting to add to stats. If there was a fairly quick obtainable cap, I would lose interest possibly even before reaching said cap. That is a good point. However, power farming should not be the driving force behind the game. Such thing should be the gameplay above anything else. If power farming is the driving force that keeps people playing it, the game is likely doomed to failure. Unless it comes with a Blizzard logo. Sure people leave to play other new games. But there are also influxes of new players every time DAI goes on sale. Despite of a seemingly large number of newbies showing up in public lobbies, how many of them actually play long enough until they are competent in NM/HB? Not sure about PS4 or Xbox1, on PC US region the regular player pool in NM/HB doesn't seem to change a lot since...one year and a half ago when I started playing.(Some people did left though) It's still pretty much the same group of veteran players(now with higher promotions) mixed with random newbie pugs. As far as I can count the new IDs joining the ranks of higher difficulties are probably less than 20...If most general players like the promotion system enough to keep grinding, why the new blood in NM/HB is such a disproportionately small number compared to how many newbies have surfaced since the introduction of NM/HB? Sure new players need to take some time to learn the ropes before they jump into the hardest difficulties, but even after they get a good understanding of the combat mechanics, practice their skills, learn to teamwork, they still need hundreds of hours of grinding for status just so that they can be capable in NM/HB. It's also impossible for them to catch up with the strongest ones, because eventually the amount of time spent in the game will override all the other factors. People who play the longest will be the strongest regardless of skills, this can be frustrating to many who don't have so much free time to invest into grinding. For me the main fun-killer is after reaching certain status, the importance of co-op is significantly dampened. That is pretty much my whole point. I guess when it is said by a native English speaker it sounds clearer and better connected. You get out what you put in. That is saying that a player who has invested 300 hours in the game (which is a lot of time, way above casual) cannot possibly perform anywhere close to a player who has invested 3,000 hours when both of them are paired together - regardless of how dedicated, skilled and willing to improve the least enthusiast player is. Thus both of them should not even be together (unless one accepts to get carried by the other). I am not saying this progression system is wrong. But it clearly fragments the playerbase. And in a game that barely has a 3-digit playerbase, it is not the wisest of the ideas.
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Post by 3y3vr3 on Feb 4, 2017 23:01:12 GMT
I just had some amazing games with 3 veterans. 2 FC NM to promote. Great teamwork. Some of the best I have seen really. No teamwork at high levels is a false belief. Players will work together (or not) depending on the attitude of the "player" I never said there was no teamwork among highly promoted players. What I mean is being overpowered for a difficulty inevitably diminishes the necessity/fun from certain aspects of co-op. How often now do you feel you really need barrier for survival or a tank to draw aggro for you to ease the tension in battle? Since I've already been able to solo NM I really don't care what other agents my friends use in the game. Of course we can still play the game in a well organized way(fighting in a group to buff each other etc.) for fast clearing, fast promoting but it's so easy there is hardly any sense of challenge. They are good games nevertheless, yet they are less fun than before when I was actually needed to be a specific role for the team. Also combos are less because many minions can be killed by the disabling ability itself before someone applies the detonator. Crowd control abilities become less interesting and less tactically necessary because things are killed so fast that most of the time there is not a large crowd to control. Such situations are out of players' control regardless they have good teamwork attitude or not. The incentive for me is to play a fun, well-balanced, challenging game, not endless power grinding to invincibility. No child left behind syndrome. New players can work hard at the lower levels and progress like I did, or they can quit. You get out what you put in. Players should be rewarded for the time they put into the game, but not in a way that time spent ultimately overrides all the other important factors(skills, understanding of game mechanics, character builds, teamwork). It introduces an unbalance which in long term drives more players away than it has kept. And I wish to see more players playing, not less.
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Post by 3y3vr3 on Feb 4, 2017 23:18:21 GMT
I'm all for promoting to add to stats. If there was a fairly quick obtainable cap, I would lose interest possibly even before reaching said cap. That is a good point. However, power farming should not be the driving force behind the game. Such thing should be the gameplay above anything else. If power farming is the driving force that keeps people playing it, the game is likely doomed to failure. Unless it comes with a Blizzard logo. Agreed. I'll just quote what Cyberzombie has said in this post: "Also I just want to re-iterate a point I made in another thread, in that you don't need the Prestige system to motivate people to play. You just need a bug free game that doesn't crash, a top notch netcode that allows people from around the world to play with each other without connection or terrible lag issues, and fun balanced gameplay. How easy it that?"
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 1:03:48 GMT
I won't quote everybody, but I will say few things.
Promotion system is good and like Mr. Kitten said unique. Player base is divided, but that is not bad thing. Let me explain... There are players who like to promote a lot, there are players who stopped at 170/170/200, there are players who didn't promote at all, there are players who promoted to the certain point and stopped and many of them are still playing. So you can choose how you want to play and can find people with similar stats.
I don't know situation in "New World" but in Europe, player base is rich. I found more than 10 lobbies on every difficulty in less than 5 minutes and it's like this almost in any given time of the day, so numbers are much higher than barely 3 digits number, and this is PC only.
There are new "faces" on the LB, no just veterans, but it takes time to get there (it took me almost 9 months to get to the LB and I have 800 challenges done, so players who started to play later will need even more time)
Do people get bored with this game? Sure, like it's the case with every game and that is normal. Lots of people stopped playing and came back for a few games when they feel like it. Will I forget this game when Andromeda comes out? No, like I didn't forgot ME3MP. Will I play it from time to time? Sure I will.
Netcode can be better, but region lock is made for a reason. ME3MP doesn't have it and you can join so laggy game that is unplayable and lots of people were, and still are complaining, so they decided to solve that problem with region lock. Bugs and crashes are present in all games and that can't be avoided simply because perfection can't be achieved, but could this game be better? It sure could, like many other games.
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Post by Silversmurf on Feb 5, 2017 2:44:29 GMT
just saw a 1500 prestige player outscore a 3960 prestige player, because he listens and learns.....and the latter came from ps3 recently
Promotes arent everything
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Post by Silversmurf on Feb 5, 2017 2:46:14 GMT
That is a good point. However, power farming should not be the driving force behind the game. Such thing should be the gameplay above anything else. If power farming is the driving force that keeps people playing it, the game is likely doomed to failure. Unless it comes with a Blizzard logo. Agreed. I'll just quote what Cyberzombie has said in this post: "Also I just want to re-iterate a point I made in another thread, in that you don't need the Prestige system to motivate people to play. You just need a bug free game that doesn't crash, a top notch netcode that allows people from around the world to play with each other without connection or terrible lag issues, and fun balanced gameplay. How easy it that?" and maybe more than 4 areas to play?
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 2:57:51 GMT
just saw a 1500 prestige player outscore a 3960 prestige player, because he listens and learns.....and the latter came from ps3 recently Promotes arent everything Of course they aren't. If you put all your trust in your stats you don't know how to play this game... With higher stats you are just in less danger and can finish the runs quicker... One player told me once that with low stats you can only play with AW, Legio and SS and be able to stay alive on NM. I played NM with all agents when I had just 30 and stayed alive quite often, even carried a game few times. EDIT: It's a shame that cross platform playing isn't possible, would love to play game or two (hundred) with you...
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 5, 2017 8:40:05 GMT
I won't quote everybody, but I will say few things. Promotion system is good and like Mr. Kitten said unique. Player base is divided, but that is not bad thing. Let me explain... There are players who like to promote a lot, there are players who stopped at 170/170/200, there are players who didn't promote at all, there are players who promoted to the certain point and stopped and many of them are still playing. So you can choose how you want to play and can find people with similar stats. I don't know situation in "New World" but in Europe, player base is rich. I found more than 10 lobbies on every difficulty in less than 5 minutes and it's like this almost in any given time of the day, so numbers are much higher than barely 3 digits number, and this is PC only. (...) I do not agree that people ought to be divided in the first place but if they are to be, they should still be able to play together and contribute more than what their stats dictate. The rewards from promoting should have been minimal, perhaps a tenth of what they are, so that the power disparity didn't get to be so drastic. Now when it comes to Europe, this is the most privileged place to play DAMP. You have at least half of the player (I dare say more than that, perhaps 2/3) within a 2,000km radius - well within the region-lock threshold. For people living in such a region, DAMP may seen to be alive and kicking and you might have the impression the community is not that small. The second most privileged location is obviously North America. For people living elsewhere, things are completely different. For me, it was quite hard to find a lobby in my region back in December 2014 and virtually impossible throughout most of 2015. Since that year, I haven't even tried. There is hardly any lobby, at any difficult level within my region-lock threshold. As for moving on, obviously people get sick of DAMP and move on, there is nothing wrong with that. But the issue is that most people did it really fast, during the game's first 3-4 months, and a few have continued to do so afterwards. And it just gets worse with this unwelcoming progression system. It is quite unlikely that someone who has bought the game during one these last sales will ever get enough stats to play Nightmare (not getting carried) before giving up the game. The game simply fails in being able to renew and replace the numbers that it has lost. Obviously there are a handful of persisting players who have played since the release, play among themselves and are happy with the game. That is cool, but it does not represent bulk of what DAMP's playerbase could have been.
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 5, 2017 8:54:48 GMT
just saw a 1500 prestige player outscore a 3960 prestige player, because he listens and learns.....and the latter came from ps3 recently Promotes arent everything Was the 3960 player using top equipment, playing seriously, not afking nor anything of that sort? Was he using the Assassin or the Alchemist? Lol. It is possible. Recently I have outscored people who have many hundreds of promotions on top of what I have, for the majority of games. But that is because I play aggressively as a berserker and pretty much only play high-exp character. Still, 1500 to 3960 is a huge disparity. I am skeptical that this will happen often. and maybe more than 4 areas to play? I guess the 4 maps has to do with the fact that DAMP was not profitable enough. It only got 1 actual DLC, whereas ME3MP for instance got 5. Had DAMP been more profitable, probably we would have had more maps, more characters, more gear, etc. The reasons DAMP didn't do that well profit-wise, I guess there are several. But in my view the shortsighted progression system Bioware came up with had its share of contribution - not so much in the beginning, but from the moment Bioware had to implement Nightmare and Heartbreaker to compensate for it, things were clearer.
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 12:04:59 GMT
Dude, chill out and join me for a game or two... I will even let you to outscore me...
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Post by HunterKipling on Feb 5, 2017 14:34:15 GMT
Dude, chill out and join me for a game or two... I will even let you to outscore me...
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Post by Silversmurf on Feb 5, 2017 14:41:57 GMT
just saw a 1500 prestige player outscore a 3960 prestige player, because he listens and learns.....and the latter came from ps3 recently Promotes arent everything Was the 3960 player using top equipment, playing seriously, not afking nor anything of that sort? Was he using the Assassin or the Alchemist? Lol. It is possible. Recently I have outscored people who have many hundreds of promotions on top of what I have, for the majority of games. But that is because I play aggressively as a berserker and pretty much only play high-exp character. Still, 1500 to 3960 is a huge disparity. I am skeptical that this will happen often. and maybe more than 4 areas to play? I guess the 4 maps has to do with the fact that DAMP was not profitable enough. It only got 1 actual DLC, whereas ME3MP for instance got 5. Had DAMP been more profitable, probably we would have had more maps, more characters, more gear, etc. The reasons DAMP didn't do that well profit-wise, I guess there are several. But in my view the shortsighted progression system Bioware came up with had its share of contribution - not so much in the beginning, but from the moment Bioware had to implement Nightmare and Heartbreaker to compensate for it, things were clearer. Alchemist LOL he was so downhearted on the score screen haha
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Post by 3y3vr3 on Feb 5, 2017 17:43:59 GMT
Of course they aren't. If you put all your trust in your stats you don't know how to play this game... Played some games with a leaderboarder(you know, the unpopular one... ) a few weeks ago. Said person has not been known for having a good understanding of teamwork, yet he can still outscore the rest of us who choose to play as a team by aggressively charging into mobs and killing everything before we can reach them. He used to die a lot in NM before, not because his stats were too low but because he likes to run away by himself. Now he's invincible on NM with much higher promotions, but his teamwork skills hasn't improved at all, nor does he seem to be willing to learn how to properly coordinate with others. To me it feels like the uncapped promotion system is encouraging such people to get away with "grind to win", instead of learning to be a better player. There are new "faces" on the LB, no just veterans, but it takes time to get there (it took me almost 9 months to get to the LB and I have 800 challenges done, so players who started to play later will need even more time) It's not about the LB, it's about how many new comers will keep playing till their performances are as good as most veteran players in NM/HB, compared to how many players have tried their hands at DAMP but stopped before they even progressed into NM/HB. To me the the number of players who regularly play NM/HB has never been very large. Last year I used to play almost everyday with a group of friends for a period of a few months. When there were only 1 or 2 of us in a NM lobby, we would open it to public and wait for someone to join. Most of the time people showing up were either veteran players who I've known since the day I started playing(some of them probably joined through FL instead of pugging), or very new players who apparently has just started playing( usually more newbies after a big DAI sale). Compared to how many new players have showed up in both pugs and private lobbies during my one and a half year in DAMP, the regular player base in NM/HB has always been a small community where everyone pretty much knows everyone else. I did see a few new faces, but it's a relatively small number, and as far as I know most of them have been through some intensive grinding for a while to get this far. I'm not saying there should be no requirement for new players to join the hardest difficulties. I just think if NM/HB had been designed out of the need for a new gameplay, instead of the need to provide some challenge to players who had been overpowered for the existing levels, the new harder difficulties would have been more balanced for all players, veteran or newbie. In order to win, people would spend time figuring out new tactics, new team composition with new agents, how to use new abilities, without the need to grind for more promotions. It would have been easier for newbies to do some meaningful contribution along with veteran players even in the hardest difficulty as long as they are willing to spend a reasonable amount of time to learn the mechanics and practice their skills. Long-time veteran players should be rewarded with special titles, banners, cosmetic armors(Golden nug armor set?), perhaps pets which are extremely hard to unlock unless you play a lot(Nug king as a follower?). Make Prestige points earned from finishing challenges cumulative instead of a one-time thing. For example players can get some Prestige points every time they win a game. And they get extra bonus prestige for clearing harder difficulties or in a shorter time. Design the challenges interesting/diverse enough so people who keep beating them will naturally moving up onto the LB. I hardly play any MP besides DAMP so I'm not sure whether it's unique or not, but to me an uncapped leveling-up system doesn't sound like a good design idea in terms of keeping a co-op game balanced. The most important things is, through trolling this thread I have only 2 posts away to ascend to Godhood(At least I suppose so...)
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 17:56:16 GMT
It isn't their fault because one player plays game the way he does. Number of people who likes promotion system is large. Even here on the forum, ony you and Vegan bitch about it. If you don't like it, dont play a game. Stop bitching about it and make a better game with better game mechanics.
I, for example, don't like new CoD games and Counter Strike, but I'm not bitcing, I simply don't play them.
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Post by Minuos on Feb 5, 2017 18:00:04 GMT
I don't think it's really bitching as much as pointing out the flaws of a good game. DAMP disappointed me overall because I and a bunch of others could see what was wrong with it and where it was going well in advance, so we complained about it fervently. Nothing changed, and it eventually stopped getting support. Promotions create a divide regarding player potential. Can't deny that it's progression. I just hope they do it better next time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 18:07:09 GMT
just saw a 1500 prestige player outscore a 3960 prestige player, because he listens and learns.....and the latter came from ps3 recently Promotes arent everything That's because the 3960 prestige player sucks extremely badly at this game. So much that even that gigantic prestige gap couldn't cover it. Two players with similar player-skill, with this prestige gap? The 3960 prestige will outscore the other one 99% of the time. Promotes aren't everything, true. But it's somewhere close to 90% promotes/gear, 10% player-skill. A more balanced distribution would be 20%/80%
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 18:25:14 GMT
I don't think it's really bitching as much as pointing out the flaws of a good game. DAMP disappointed me overall because I and a bunch of others could see what was wrong with it and where it was going well in advance, so we complained about it fervently. Nothing changed, and it eventually stopped getting support. Promotions create a divide regarding player potential. Can't deny that it's progression. I just hope they do it better next time. I understand that, but like few people pointed out, if stats were capped much more people would stop playing , including me. I played ME3MP a lot, I maxed out manifest, did all challenges, some of them multiple times and now i only play it casualy, here I can set new goals anytime i want and I even like ME3MP more than DAIMP. People who love to play ME3MP created new accounts and started from scratch, you can do that with this game also, I just don't see point in that. Also,I agree with wavebend. As you get stronger, you need less skill, but you still need it. Bad player will be bad, but he will be able to survive much easier than in ME3MP. That is why people see promotion system as flaw of this game.
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 5, 2017 19:50:49 GMT
It isn't their fault because one player plays game the way he does. Number of people who likes promotion system is large. Even here on the forum, ony you and Vegan bitch about it. If you don't like it, dont play a game. Stop bitching about it and make a better game with better game mechanics. I, for example, don't like new CoD games and Counter Strike, but I'm not bitcing, I simply don't play them. There a lot of people who bitch about it. But they are mostly former players, people who have played it between November 2014 to February, March or April 2015. They don't play it anymore, obviously they don't come to the forums anymore. But they still dislike the way promotion system works in DAMP nevertheless. Recently in MEAMP it was announced that there would be something similar, albeit capped. Quite a few people have bitched about that, too. And even they are a fraction of the people I know who have played DAMP and left the game bitching about it. Overall, the people who remain here are the DAMP forums are mostly those who still play it enthusiastically and continue to have an overall positive impression of the game; they are usually on the Leaderboards and could be considered fanboys of the game. However, they do not represent the community at large, nor they share views and experiences the community at large has had with the game.
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Post by HunterKipling on Feb 5, 2017 19:54:38 GMT
The most important things is, through trolling this thread I have only 2 posts away to ascend to Godhood(At least I suppose so...) I give you a thumbs up for that Always admired your honesty!
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 5, 2017 20:03:10 GMT
Dude, chill out and join me for a game or two... I will even let you to outscore me... I have played with many Europeans. The ping between us is at least 300ms. The host will enter the game while the client will blackscreen and may take somewhere between a minute (if you have a SSD) to few minutes to rejoin the game. After that, the client will have to deal with rubberbanding, dead enemies standing on their feet and hitting him as well as not playing it in real time (but rather with a third of a second delay, maybe up to half a second). Since the netcoding is horrible and lag compensation is non-existing in this game, this challenge is not practical. The host will have a major headstart as well as the huge advantage of playing with less bugs and in real time. Morever, different classes score better, and I believe that you have a few more promotions than I do. Besides that, I hardly play DAMP much nowadays to take such challenge seriously.
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SassaMFG
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 20:28:19 GMT
I have played with many Europeans. The ping between us is at least 300ms. The host will enter the game while the client will blackscreen and may take somewhere between a minute (if you have a SSD) to few minutes to rejoin the game. After that, the client will have to deal with rubberbanding, dead enemies standing on their feet and hitting him as well as not playing it in real time (but rather with a third of a second delay, maybe up to half a second). Besides that, I hardly play DAMP much nowadays to take such challenge seriously. I agree with you completely, but this is the problem with many other games. But it also depends on how good internet connection and how high internet speed both, you and host have. I played games with almost no lag at all with Californians and played games with terrible lag with Europeans. Region lock was their solution for that. Could have they came up with better solution? I think they could. And no, I am not fanboy of this game, I just still enjoy playing it with friends, like I enjoy playing ME3MP with friends and I just accepted it how developers made it. It sure could be better, but don't forget that multiplayer part of this game wasn't it's primary attribute, it was just a bonus feature. This game is clearly designed with no stats cap, developers probably didn't anticipated that some of us will play it so intensively.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 21:25:05 GMT
It isn't their fault because one player plays game the way he does. Number of people who likes promotion system is large. Even here on the forum, ony you and Vegan bitch about it. If you don't like it, dont play a game. Stop bitching about it and make a better game with better game mechanics. I, for example, don't like new CoD games and Counter Strike, but I'm not bitcing, I simply don't play them. There a lot of people who bitch about it. But they are mostly former players, people who have played it between November 2014 to February, March or April 2015. They don't play it anymore, obviously they don't come to the forums anymore. But they still dislike the way promotion system works in DAMP nevertheless. Recently in MEAMP it was announced that there would be something similar, albeit capped. Quite a few people have bitched about that, too. And even they are a fraction of the people I know who have played DAMP and left the game bitching about it. Overall, the people who remain here are the DAMP forums are mostly those who still play it enthusiastically and continue to have an overall positive impression of the game; they are usually on the Leaderboards and could be considered fanboys of the game. However, they do not represent the community at large, nor they share views and experiences the community at large has had with the game. As far as I can tell, MEA:MP has a similar promotion system. Filling up your XP bar earns you a promote, and the XP required gets higher everytime. Also, I think a reason why Biower doesn't give up on this progression system is because of microtransactions. It's part of their business model after all?
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 5, 2017 22:16:34 GMT
As far as I can tell, MEA:MP has a similar promotion system. Filling up your XP bar earns you a promote, and the XP required gets higher everytime. Also, I think a reason why Biower doesn't give up on this progression system is because of microtransactions. It's part of their business model after all? What do you mean? I can't really see what the connection here is. Besides, I think that if one takes the DAMP model as an example, in which you needs hundreds of promotion to get the feeling of achievement, the store becomes even less relevant. If the store had been the one and only way to progress in the game, people might have been more inclined to spend money in the game. I don't think promotions are necessarily that bad, as long as what you get by promoting is purely cosmetic (skins, banners, tittles, a rank for e-peen or whatever).
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SassaMFG
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Post by SassaMFG on Feb 5, 2017 22:44:12 GMT
As far as I can tell, MEA:MP has a similar promotion system. Filling up your XP bar earns you a promote, and the XP required gets higher everytime. Also, I think a reason why Biower doesn't give up on this progression system is because of microtransactions. It's part of their business model after all? What do you mean? I can't really see what the connection here is. Besides, I think that if one takes the DAMP model as an example, in which you needs hundreds of promotion to get the feeling of achievement, the store becomes even less relevant. If the store had been the one and only way to progress in the game, people might have been more inclined to spend money in the game. I don't think promotions are necessarily that bad, as long as what you get by promoting is purely cosmetic (skins, banners, tittles, a rank for e-peen or whatever). Microtransactions are for people who want better equipment faster and they are willing to spend money for it. Stuff bought like this doesn't guarantee OP stuff in BW games like in other games. HP and shield boost by promotion can be good thing, but in case of ME:A MP it must be capped at some point, or like cunning in DA:I MP not to affect stats because it is different type of game and it can be ruined with this.
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Post by HunterKipling on Feb 6, 2017 2:48:48 GMT
The store in DAMP is like gambling, there's no guarantee. No one wants this to be P2W anyway. Personally, I don't mind the grind. I don't think it was necessary to do events unless it involved a complete diversion from the typical maps and enemies 'box of chocolates'. Much like the introduction of the Druffy Faction, it was harsh, but it was a good deviation. I like the fact that creativity didn't die out, that didn't give up on keeping us entertained. I know I was always looking forward to that "Wonder what I'm getting into today?" aspect of multiplayer. Right now, real players provide that for me. Even though I've played with so many Lukas and Cillians, you can still see individual players in how they choose to play them. But above all, the one thing I wish I could do is... the ability to mod my own characters in multiplayer. I see the thread posts about what their Inquisitor looks like. I want that in MP as well.
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