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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 19:14:44 GMT
These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? It amazes me how some people simply lack the sligthest resemblance of self awareness. "Not all free mages abuse their power. All Templars abuse their power."
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 19:24:09 GMT
So in terms of choosing a police force to deal with magic, Templars/Seekers actually seem like a logical answer. It's just a shame they are so tied to religion. I suppose a possible alternative would a mage police force (as Viv once agreed with, "who understands the dangers of magic better than a mage?") or inducting mages back into Seeker ranks. The Templars and the Seekers are corrupt beyond repair, and had a toxic ideology to start with. Wholesale replacement is the only answer, and that can happen in Inquisition, with most of the Templars going Red and not being restored, and making sure Cassandra doesn't bring back the Chantry's Gestapo.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 19:57:34 GMT
These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? It amazes me how some people simply lack the sligthest resemblance of self awareness. "Not all free mages abuse their power. All Templars abuse their power." Not comparable. The Templar Order is a single institution, one that has, across Thedas, proven itself unreliable, corrupt, brutal, and utterly incompetent. It is a failure and a stain on the world, and needs to be done away with.
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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 20:59:16 GMT
Not comparable. The Templar Order is a single institution, one that has, across Thedas, proven itself unreliable, corrupt, brutal, and utterly incompetent. It is a failure and a stain on the world, and needs to be done away with. "My generalization is correct, damn you!" The Templar Order is composed of individual, same as the Circles (which are institutions, BTW), some of which fail, others do not. Ser Barris:
It is only a week since you left, yet Ansburg slowly returns to its routines. We will never forget how demons ran through our streets, just as we will always remember the men and women who reclaimed them.
There is talk of erecting a statue in honor of our Templar defenders. I can already hear you calling it "excessive nonsense," but it is little enough for saving a city. Allow us our heroes.
Don't let that wound on your leg scar, and come visit us when duty permits; the new recruits should hear your war stories.
Always in your debt, Guard-Captain Weinman
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 21:07:24 GMT
It amazes me how some people simply lack the sligthest resemblance of self awareness. "Not all free mages abuse their power. All Templars abuse their power." Not comparable. The Templar Order is a single institution, one that has, across Thedas, proven itself unreliable, corrupt, brutal, and utterly incompetent. It is a failure and a stain on the world, and needs to be done away with. The Circles/College is a single institution as well. An institution that has its own share of unreliability (*cough* Fiona *cough*), brutality and incompetence. Though, since it is primarily a learning/academic institution as opposed to a military one, a certain amount of incompetence can be looked over. A decent amount of mages are in the process of learning after all. But that does not excuse every mage. Look, I myself think the Templars have demonstrated a certain amount of incompetence and cruelty in the past. But I am of the mind that this is because the "good" Templars (ex. Cullen, Ser Barris) have all been bullied or shoehorned away from exerting any authority within the Institution. Not every Templar is a bully or sanctioned murderer. "Not all, but enough. The good Templars were too afraid to stop the others" <--Cole
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 21:29:56 GMT
Not comparable. The Templar Order is a single institution, one that has, across Thedas, proven itself unreliable, corrupt, brutal, and utterly incompetent. It is a failure and a stain on the world, and needs to be done away with. The Circles/College is a single institution as well. An institution that has its own share of unreliability (*cough* Fiona *cough*), brutality and incompetence. Though, since it is primarily a learning/academic institution as opposed to a military one, a certain amount of incompetence can be looked over. A decent amount of mages are in the process of learning after all. But that does not excuse every mage. Look, I myself think the Templars have demonstrated a certain amount of incompetence and cruelty in the past. But I am of the mind that this is because the "good" Templars (ex. Cullen, Ser Barris) have all been bullied or shoehorned away from exerting any authority within the Institution. Not every Templar is a bully or sanctioned murderer. "Not all, but enough. The good Templars were too afraid to stop the others" <--Cole The comparison was to free mages, not the Circles. And even then, the Order is military, trained and indoctrinated in the same way across Thedas, unlike the mages of the Circles. As for Barris, he's always been a bit of an exception, but not even in all cases. He still joins Lambert's genocidal crusade and does nothing while the Templars abandon Val Royuex to pout in Therinfal. The majority of the Order also does this, and that already shows that they were flawed beyond repair. And Cullen? Ser Mages-aren't-people & we have divine right over them? Meredith's right hand who gets away scott free? A "good" Templar? Please. If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 21:48:10 GMT
I don't believe, that I defend a Templar, but Cullen was tortured by a demon in the Ferelden Circle, have that experience with Wilmod's demons in Kirkwall, nevertheless he always was able to thinking about Hawke's version, and Hawke could convince him that the Circle in this form is not good. That is, if your Hawke talked to him about it. Of course, he not an innocent lamb because he had seen everything, yet persisted at Meredith (he realised, that Meredith is "weird"), but still have some good point, as I see. And I can't forget, that he let Hawke and his/her rebel group go away from Kirkwall, included Anders. Just for sake of truth.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 7, 2016 21:59:45 GMT
You wonder, that they used the blood magic? They were in jail, in a hopeless situation, and against the Templars the blood magic the best weapon (and I think, magic is magic, just a tool. The self control is the point). The rebels was too individuals? Yes. I no wonder. The mages never had privacy in they whole life... Again I say, strange position from a dalish elf mage. Any other nation, class imaginable, but dalish/tal vashoth mages do not think that would support the Templars or vote to a jail for the mages. Maybe one Trevelyan, with a massive Stocholm syndrome, okay. I can only say: the rebel mages need organization, and the mages need respect. This is why is logical choice the rebels for an apostate/ex circle mage. And I think for a mage the Templars don't seems more reliable. The use of Blood Magic and the subsequent fall to an Abomination does nothing but prove the Mages to be the monsters many people and Templars already think hey are, and the Circle Mages know this and should know better. Respect is not something given it is something that needs to be earned and by placating to the peoples worst fears by breaking one of the greatest taboo's of Magic of Southern Thedas it will do nothing to earn it. The same train of thought follows the concept that the Rebel Mages didn't clean up their mess in regards to the Rogue Apostates reeving there way across rural Thedas. If they had gone after them themselves, regardless of the danger, it would have shown them not only to be responsible enough to handle the self punishment and self regulation that they so desired, but also promote better relations with the non magic locals they wished to interact with. Instead ... they distanced themselves from the issue and let the Templars hunt the rogues, creating a situation where they may not be directly responsible for the destruction their crazed brethren where inflicting, but they are certainly responsible for releasing them and allowing them to do whatever they wanted. Also people forget that nearly half of the Circle Mages wanted to keep the Circles during a time of extreme crisis and before that more than half. Clearly there was some positive incentives to stay ... though admittedly that may be partially due to the differences in the individual Circles. As for siding with the Vivienne + Wynne factions of the Circle Mages, I personally don't think there is anyone more suited to understanding how difficult it is to live as an apostate mage in Southern Andrastian regions than a Dalish Mage. There are few that understand what it feels like to be hunted by the Chantry quite as intimately or comprehend what its like to be shunned by Andrastian human society than a Dalish Elf. There is no one better than a Mage to understand just how dangerous a desperate Mage can be, especially one that may not be fully trained like many of those released from the Circles. Above all, like Morrigan, this is coming from a person who has lived and trained their whole lives to survive as an apostate, and even more so coming from a person who grew up in a society that accepted them for what they are and has trained them specifically to serve a function for the Clan. While it certainly is the fault of the system itself, the Mages now expelled from the Circles have little to none of that life experience and neither of the later two advantages. They have no money, no land, few sources of income and will be thoroughly shunned and feared by the locals. A Prison the Circles may have been, some Circles worse than others, but they were Gilded Prisons that kept the Mages protected, fed, and moderately entertained. The may have their freedom from the Circles, they also have the freedom to be homeless, broke, or starving ... which the majority will be (not all of them can be court jesters like Morrigan). Its not that difficult to understand how a Dalish mage would be against the short-sighted and rushed way the Rebellion handled themselves and somewhat understand the necessity of the circles (if not agreeing to how the circles were managed). Plus, I did RP a hard core futurist with my Dalish ... to offset the other two Elves of the Inner Circle (Solas, a man trapped in the Past and Sera, a girl who fears thinking of anything but the Present) to create an interesting dynamic. I liked the idea of a Dalish Elf who respected and understood their heritage, but didn't allow it to fetter and shackle them down. Part of the reason she went Rift Mage since it was a "new" experimental Magic Discipline.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 22:33:14 GMT
Maybe if they could more of the blood magic, they were more careful. The intimidation is not enough. The forbidden things are interesting. They have no life experience. But if they do not try, they will never received. In the beginning, many will suck yes, but this is the required loss. Everything has a price. Maybe the Chantry should not have started a witch-hunt. It sounds cruel? Because it is. As in the Circle-system. But it has to get used to. Interesting ... we have not seen abominations in the Inquisition (except the red templar ones...) Maybe the mages can still take care of themselves. And if the commoners will hunting they. Maybe bad luck of commoners. They will learn, that is bad thing. But the mages are not necessarily dangerous. Someone from they do not even want to use the magic. For example Bethany only wanted to live like everyone else. The mages are not monsters... I still do not see what is the risk if the Circles are not operated as a prison, and the mages could have their private lives. The privileged mages to already could left the Circles, the Grey Wardens are also. Only the unfavorable mages sucked in the Circle. I do not really see the point. The danger exists, but it is unjust and cruel. For the Templars and mages alike. Okay, now I understand your point to a weird dalish, who respect the human religious non-mages better than his kind.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 7, 2016 22:46:57 GMT
Maybe if they could more of the blood magic, they were more careful. The intimidation is not enough. The forbidden things are interesting. They have no life experience. But if they do not try, they will never received. In the beginning, many will suck yes, but this is the required loss. Everything has a price. Maybe the Chantry should not have started a witch-hunt. It sounds cruel? Because it is. As in the Circle-system. But it has to get used to. Interesting ... we have not seen abominations in the Inquisition (except the red templar ones...) Maybe the mages can still take care of themselves. And if the commoners will hunting they. Maybe bad luck of commoners. They will learn, that is bad thing. But the mages are not necessarily dangerous. Someone from they do not even want to use the magic. For example Bethany only wanted to live like everyone else. The mages are not monsters... I still do not see what is the risk if the Circles are not operated as a prison, and the mages could have their private lives. The privileged mages to already could left the Circles, the Grey Wardens are also. Only the unfavorable mages sucked in the Circle. I do not really see the point. The danger exists, but it is unjust and cruel. For the Templars and mages alike. Okay, now I understand your point to a weird dalish, who respect the human religious non-mages better than his kind.LOL well I meant she understands and respects her own Dalish heritage (rather than Human) and just doesn't feel the need to be restricted by it, but I won't argue the plan was to make her a weirdo.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 22:52:17 GMT
Maybe if they could more of the blood magic, they were more careful. The intimidation is not enough. The forbidden things are interesting. They have no life experience. But if they do not try, they will never received. In the beginning, many will suck yes, but this is the required loss. Everything has a price. Maybe the Chantry should not have started a witch-hunt. It sounds cruel? Because it is. As in the Circle-system. But it has to get used to. Interesting ... we have not seen abominations in the Inquisition (except the red templar ones...) Maybe the mages can still take care of themselves. And if the commoners will hunting they. Maybe bad luck of commoners. They will learn, that is bad thing. But the mages are not necessarily dangerous. Someone from they do not even want to use the magic. For example Bethany only wanted to live like everyone else. The mages are not monsters... I still do not see what is the risk if the Circles are not operated as a prison, and the mages could have their private lives. The privileged mages to already could left the Circles, the Grey Wardens are also. Only the unfavorable mages sucked in the Circle. I do not really see the point. The danger exists, but it is unjust and cruel. For the Templars and mages alike. Okay, now I understand your point to a weird dalish, who respect the human religious non-mages better than his kind.LOL well I meant she understands and respects her own Dalish heritage (rather than Human) and just doesn't feel the need to be restricted by it, but I won't argue the plan was to make her a weirdo. Okay, yes, I got it. Just was really weird to hear the Chantry propaganda from a dalish elf mage...
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 22:55:39 GMT
The comparison was to free mages, not the Circles. And even then, the Order is military, trained and indoctrinated in the same way across Thedas, unlike the mages of the Circles. As for Barris, he's always been a bit of an exception, but not even in all cases. He still joins Lambert's genocidal crusade and does nothing while the Templars abandon Val Royuex to pout in Therinfal. The majority of the Order also does this, and that already shows that they were flawed beyond repair. And Cullen? Ser Mages-aren't-people & we have divine right over them? Meredith's right hand who gets away scott free? A "good" Templar? Please. If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable. I don't believe, that I defend a Templar, but Cullen was tortured by a demon in the Ferelden Circle, have that experience with Wilmod's demons in Kirkwall, newertheless he always was able to thinking about Hawke's version, and Hawke could convince him that the Circle in this form is not good. That is, if your Hawke talked to him about it. Of course, he not an innocent lamb because he had seen everything, yet persisted at Meredith (he realised, that Meredith is "weird"), but still have some good point, as I see. And I can't forget, that he let Hawke and his/her rebel group go away from Kirkwall, included Anders. Yes, he'll happily participate in the Annulment, but when it comes to a rich and influential citizen and his entourage, he'll stop? Not good enough. I don't care what he went through, Templars force mages into the Harrowing or Tranquility (or they kill them), and what Cullen tacitly supported in Kirkwall goes beyond the pale.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 22:56:52 GMT
The Circles/College is a single institution as well. An institution that has its own share of unreliability (*cough* Fiona *cough*), brutality and incompetence. Though, since it is primarily a learning/academic institution as opposed to a military one, a certain amount of incompetence can be looked over. A decent amount of mages are in the process of learning after all. But that does not excuse every mage. Look, I myself think the Templars have demonstrated a certain amount of incompetence and cruelty in the past. But I am of the mind that this is because the "good" Templars (ex. Cullen, Ser Barris) have all been bullied or shoehorned away from exerting any authority within the Institution. Not every Templar is a bully or sanctioned murderer. "Not all, but enough. The good Templars were too afraid to stop the others" <--Cole [...] If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable. It's not so much defending them so much as acknowledging that they had some good points. Templar training and the use of lyrium is one of the few effective ways mortals combat malicious magic. It's just their ideology that's messed up. A bit too much on the zealous side. In their hands, their techniques are abused. But the techniques themselves are not that bad. The world turned to Templar training because of this reason. Even in the best of circumstances, magical abuse does happen and there needed to be a way to counter that. In that sense, Templars do exist by necessity. In lack of a better alternative, lyrium and anti-magic training were the way to go. But the Chantry ended up making sure they had a monopoly on it.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 23:04:21 GMT
[...] If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable. It's not so much defending them so much as acknowledging that they had some good points. Templar training and the use of lyrium is one of the few effective ways mortals combat malicious magic. It's just their ideology that's messed up. A bit too much on the zealous side. In their hands, their techniques are abused. But the techniques themselves are not that bad. The world turned to Templar training because of this reason. Even in the best of circumstances, magical abuse does happen and there needed to be a way to counter that. In that sense, Templars do exist by necessity. In lack of a better alternative, lyrium and anti-magic training were the way to go. But the Chantry ended up making sure they had a monopoly on it. Keep the techniques, dissolve the Order and replace it with a secular group who answer to the Enchanters. Agreed.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 23:09:57 GMT
It's not so much defending them so much as acknowledging that they had some good points. Templar training and the use of lyrium is one of the few effective ways mortals combat malicious magic. It's just their ideology that's messed up. A bit too much on the zealous side. In their hands, their techniques are abused. But the techniques themselves are not that bad. The world turned to Templar training because of this reason. Even in the best of circumstances, magical abuse does happen and there needed to be a way to counter that. In that sense, Templars do exist by necessity. In lack of a better alternative, lyrium and anti-magic training were the way to go. But the Chantry ended up making sure they had a monopoly on it. Keep the techniques, dissolve the Order and replace it with a secular group who answer to the Enchanters. Agreed. Pretty much. Less Chant, more investigative practices. Though maybe not have report just to the Enchanters? Let them have the ability to report stuff to the Chantry/Crown as needed. And maybe add some mages in their ranks (not using lyrium though, for obvious health reasons).
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Post by roselavellan on Sept 8, 2016 0:34:52 GMT
Keep the techniques, dissolve the Order and replace it with a secular group who answer to the Enchanters. Agreed. Pretty much. Less Chant, more investigative practices. Though maybe not have report just to the Enchanters? Let them have the ability to report stuff to the Chantry/Crown as needed. And maybe add some mages in their ranks (not using lyrium though, for obvious health reasons). I'd agree with these. I think you'd need to have the new order answering to a neutral group, and I think neutrality might be best achieved by having the group comprise of about 50% Enchanters and 50% independent/secular law enforcers. The Enchanters are there to protect the interests of the mages, while the others represent the interests of the common people. That might work.
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Post by misterjb on Sept 8, 2016 2:23:53 GMT
Not really, the problems with that idea are legion.
First, there is the simple fact that the Chantry acts as an international organization whose authority is recognized by all nations in Thedas and whom possesses the resources to maintain cross-border policing of mages and dissuading others who seek to interfere. Remove the Chantry from the equation, and every power in Thedas will seek to control the mages for their benefit leading to domestic and international conflicts where batallions of mages are used against human soldiers rathers than Darkspawn or Qunari.
Second, having Templars answer to mages is what happens in Tevinter and the reasons why it is innefective should be obvious. If the people who are supposed to be watched for signs of corruption are the same people who pay the salaries of those who supposedly watch for signs of corruption, then they can just be bribed at any second. It's like having the mafia pay the salaries of the police, it just doesn't work.
Third, any attempt to create a "secular Templars" is automatically doomed to failure because the pool of candidates for this new order would be the exact same one for the Templars AKA the people of Thedas which means that the young men and women who would have been Templars simply join this new hypothetical order. And any who would have been corrupt, will still be corrupt. They're basically the Templars by another name. Which is fine, really.
Fourth, there really is no such thing as neutrality. We all have our biases. A group composed by 50% mages and 50% normal people is redudant because that is already how it works. The Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are, on paper, equal within the Circle and they work together, one to protect the interests of the normal people, the other of the mages. And of course, in each Circle, the Knight Commander and First Enchanter compete for superiority and the one who achieves it will unduly influence decision making. And hypothetical group comprised of 50% Enchanters and 50% independent/secular law enforcers would work in the exact same manner.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 2:48:11 GMT
The First Enchanter and the Knight Commander are equal? WHAT? Bullshit. Orsino wasn't able to stop Meredith's Annullment, but Meredith could have to execute the Annullment. This is NOT equal. The Chantry never was neutral, the Chantry (included the "neutral" Elthina), supported always the Templars.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 8, 2016 3:32:06 GMT
Jb is here? Damn, was hoping he found somewhere else
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 8, 2016 3:33:53 GMT
The First Enchanter and the Knight Commander are equal? WHAT? Bullshit. Orsino wasn't able to stop Meredith's Annullment, but Meredith could have to execute the Annullment. This is NOT equal. The Chantry never was neutral, the Chantry (included the "neutral" Elthina), supported always the Templars. This. Meredith was quite blatantly the one with all the power. Wot even says Orsino only became first enchanter because he was literally the only one willing the take the position since everyone was afraid of Meredith to argue Mage rights against her
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Post by xerrai on Sept 8, 2016 3:50:07 GMT
Jb is here? Damn, was hoping he found somewhere else Well there always has to be that "one guy" , and that just so happens to be jb. Not much to be done about it. Honestly, if you find him unpalatable it would be better if you just didn't engage. Otherwise you'll just end up going in a Circle (heh).
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 4:08:05 GMT
Jb is here? Damn, was hoping he found somewhere else But about what we can talking without "Templars"? It would be quite boring. I know my opinion, I want to know another viewpoint too.
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flyingovertrout
marxist asshole
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 8, 2016 5:42:26 GMT
#NOTALLTEMPLARS
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Nimlowyn
N3
“Literature and art are never created for scholars but for a universal audience." - Camille Paglia
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: nimlowyn
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Posts: 857 Likes: 2,796
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Aug 17, 2017 22:19:12 GMT
2,796
Nimlowyn
“Literature and art are never created for scholars but for a universal audience." - Camille Paglia
857
August 2016
nimlowyn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
nimlowyn
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Post by Nimlowyn on Sept 8, 2016 8:40:07 GMT
I for one enjoy jb's perspective. Echo chambers are dull.
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Sept 14, 2016 17:34:07 GMT
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misterjb
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Aug 21, 2016 20:44:32 GMT
August 2016
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Post by misterjb on Sept 8, 2016 14:23:47 GMT
The First Enchanter and the Knight Commander are equal? WHAT? Bullshit. Orsino wasn't able to stop Meredith's Annullment, but Meredith could have to execute the Annullment. This is NOT equal. The Chantry never was neutral, the Chantry (included the "neutral" Elthina), supported always the Templars. Settle down, mate. What I said was that the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are meant to be equal and then added that this will naturally be undermined as they both compete for authority. Kirkwall was an example of a Circle where the Knight Commander held more power than the First Enchanter, the Circles in Tevinter are the opposite.
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