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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 6:12:45 GMT
Played a Dalish Mage that sided with the Templars and for the most part with Viv. She found the Rebel Mages irrational, irresponsible, and short sighted and while I could rant about it for a while, long story short (and as nuanced as the conflict was) she decided to side with the faction who was not entirely responsible for the current dilemma they found themselves in, the Templars. The best way I can describe my thoughts on the Mage Rebellion is " The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". The Templars are responsible for the entire war. If they were actually able to control themselves, there wouldn't have even been a rebellion in the first place, and if they actually followed the Divine's orders after the mages voted for independence, the vast, vast, majority of the ensuing bloodshed wouldn't have happened.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 10:22:01 GMT
Played a Dalish Mage that sided with the Templars and for the most part with Viv. She found the Rebel Mages irrational, irresponsible, and short sighted and while I could rant about it for a while, long story short (and as nuanced as the conflict was) she decided to side with the faction who was not entirely responsible for the current dilemma they found themselves in, the Templars. The best way I can describe my thoughts on the Mage Rebellion is " The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". All rebellion are chaotic, no matter, that based on truth, or not. That "good intension" may that "The Circles and the Templars only protect the innocent peoples and the mages" (the mages are not peoples, yes?). Interestingly, how many people think appropriate/acceptable institutionalized oppression and terror, just because of fear... (Especially interesting from the perspective of a dalish mage, who was allways free...)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 10:27:04 GMT
Played a Dalish Mage that sided with the Templars and for the most part with Viv. She found the Rebel Mages irrational, irresponsible, and short sighted and while I could rant about it for a while, long story short (and as nuanced as the conflict was) she decided to side with the faction who was not entirely responsible for the current dilemma they found themselves in, the Templars. The best way I can describe my thoughts on the Mage Rebellion is " The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". The Templars are responsible for the entire war. If they were actually able to control themselves, there wouldn't have even been a rebellion in the first place, and if they actually followed the Divine's orders after the mages voted for independence, the vast, vast, majority of the ensuing bloodshed wouldn't have happened. The Templars' responsibility is doubtful: they was also victims, the puppets of the Chantry, as I see. (And I'm not totally anti-Chantry, my Trevelyan Inquisitors and Hawkes are moderate Andrastian, just as Anders. The Chantry needs a total change)
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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 11:29:22 GMT
All rebellion are chaotic, no matter, that based on truth, or not. That "good intension" may that "The Circles and the Templars only protect the innocent peoples and the mages" (the mages are not peoples, yes?). Interestingly, how many people think appropriate/acceptable institutionalized oppression and terror, just because of fear... (Especially interesting from the perspective of a dalish mage, who was allways free...) Interestingly, many people disagree that the Circle is an example of institutionalized opression and terror, seeing it instead as reasonable and human precautions.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 11:36:14 GMT
Interestingly, many people disagree that the Circle is an example of institutionalized opression and terror, seeing it instead as reasonable and human precautions. The terror and oppression are not "reasonable human precautions", rather cruelty. Of course, always easy to explain that serves "your best interests" ... and thus it is maximum hypocrisy. Not mentioned, that how easy it is to agree with this, as long as the man himself is not involved ...
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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 12:34:42 GMT
The terror and oppression are not "reasonable human precautions", rather cruelty. Of course, always easy to explain that serves "your best interests" ... and thus it is maximum hypocrisy. Not mentioned, that how easy it is to agree with this, as long as the man himself is not involved ... Just as it is very easy to speak of trust when you're the one with the power to abuse it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 12:41:46 GMT
Just as it is very easy to speak of trust when you're the one with the power to abuse it. Just as it is very easy to speak of jailing of innocent people, if you are not one of them. Deadlock. I simply can not find enough reasons to do so. I consider abuse of power what the Chantry do. I averse from the opinion, which is about, that the state need to protect people from themselves, even at the cost of freedom. And keep them in fear/ignorance for their own good... this is the real abuse of power. And very dangerous.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 7, 2016 13:09:58 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
Definitely sided with the mages.
The Templars are just Nazis. Kidnapping children and jailing them for life. What a croc of shyte.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 13:15:32 GMT
This is true (without "nazis"). And the Templars are also victims of their Order, and of the Chantry. The system is wrong, the people rarely evil, rather ignorant. And as I see: siding with mages also serve the Templars (personal) interests.
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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 13:41:53 GMT
Just as it is very easy to speak of jailing of innocent people, if you are not one of them. Deadlock. I simply can not find enough reasons to do so. I consider abuse of power what the Chantry do. I averse from the opinion, which is about, that the state need to protect people from themselves, even at the cost of freedom. And keep them in fear/ignorance for their own good... this is the real abuse of power. And very dangerous. It's not a deadlock per say. Yes, it is true that mages are separated from normal society for the protection of normal people and, to a lesser extent, their own. However, just as we acknowledge that this is true, so must we acknowledge that it is only natural. The history of the world is one of different groups competing with each other for power and removing the Circle will not change this in the sligthest. The conflict between normal people and mages will simply use different methods and it will place more advantages in the hands of mages who already overflow with them. It is not ignorance that leads to people fearing mages but wisdom.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 13:53:51 GMT
Just as it is very easy to speak of jailing of innocent people, if you are not one of them. Deadlock. I simply can not find enough reasons to do so. I consider abuse of power what the Chantry do. I averse from the opinion, which is about, that the state need to protect people from themselves, even at the cost of freedom. And keep them in fear/ignorance for their own good... this is the real abuse of power. And very dangerous. It's not a deadlock per say. Yes, it is true that mages are separated from normal society for the protection of normal people and, to a lesser extent, their own. However, just as we acknowledge that this is true, so must we acknowledge that it is only natural. The history of the world is one of different groups competing with each other for power and removing the Circle will not change this in the sligthest. The conflict between normal people and mages will simply use different methods and it will place more advantages in the hands of mages who already overflow with them. It is not ignorance that leads to people fearing mages but wisdom. "Separated" what a nice word! "Normal" people vs mages... also nice. If the world will not change from removing a bad thing, we can say: we don't need to do anything, just sit, and swallow the shit, because the world will not change, and the change may chaos, brrr... yes, this is very deep and wise. By the way: the Circles are necessary, don't need "remove", just change to school, library, not prison.
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Post by misterjb on Sept 7, 2016 14:03:15 GMT
"Separated" what a nice word! "Normal" people vs mages... also nice. If the world will not change from removing a bad thing, we can say: we don't need to do anything, just sit, and swallow the shit, because the world will not change, and the change may chaos, brrr... yes, this is very deep and wise. By the way: the Circles are necessary, don't need "remove", just change to school, library, not prison. Different groups of people exist. Competition between these groups exist. These are facts of life and nothing can change them. Believing that armed rebellion can lead to approximation or healing is naive in the extreme. Even if the rebels win, then they seek terms and policies that benefit themselves at the expense of those they rebelled against and will seek acts of cruelty against those same people. This will be under the guise of "justice" and "making sure it never happens again". And this is intertribal competition. Schools and libraries are incapable of changing any of these realities.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 14:28:44 GMT
1. Different groups of people exist. Competition between these groups exist. These are facts of life and nothing can change them. 2. Believing that armed rebellion can lead to approximation or healing is naive in the extreme. Even if the rebels win, then they seek terms and policies that benefit themselves at the expense of those they rebelled against and will seek acts of cruelty against those same people. This will be under the guise of "justice" and "making sure it never happens again". And this is intertribal competition. 3. Schools and libraries are incapable of changing any of these realities. 3. And the confinement is cruel. 2. I do not believe in it, that the armed uprising solution, rather, it is a bitter awareness raising, what definitely result a change. Yes, it's may better or worst, but in any case is a CHANCE. If a peaceful solution is impossible. 1. Only with the separation of the groups, and for it the best option the imprisonment of one of them, I suppose...
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 14:41:44 GMT
Played a Dalish Mage that sided with the Templars and for the most part with Viv. She found the Rebel Mages irrational, irresponsible, and short sighted and while I could rant about it for a while, long story short (and as nuanced as the conflict was) she decided to side with the faction who was not entirely responsible for the current dilemma they found themselves in, the Templars. The best way I can describe my thoughts on the Mage Rebellion is " The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". The Templars are responsible for the entire war. If they were actually able to control themselves, there wouldn't have even been a rebellion in the first place, and if they actually followed the Divine's orders after the mages voted for independence, the vast, vast, majority of the ensuing bloodshed wouldn't have happened. Eh, I wouldn't put it like that. I mean, Templars have done some pretty messed up things to mages (Kirkwall, Cole, etc.), but most of them are willing to listen to the Divine/Chantry. I would mostly blame the acting Lord Seeker at the time for how the Mage rebellion started. He was literally looking for any excuse to exert more power over the mages. Desperately trying to make sure no one knew that much about the cure to tranquility. Then there were radical Isolationist/Revolutionist mages intentionally trying to cause havoc during the proceedings (with murder, if I recall) in order to strong-arm a bloody separation. If meeting of enchanters was not riled up the way it was, then the splitting from the Chantry (or even reform while still under the Chantry) would have likely gone by way of either the Aequitarians or the non-revolutionist Libertalians. If even that. Fiona may have called for a splitting from the Chantry, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that while some want reform, many want to stay, and the meeting would have just reverted back to the implications of a tranquility cure.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 7, 2016 15:31:57 GMT
All rebellion are chaotic, no matter, that based on truth, or not. That "good intension" may that "The Circles and the Templars only protect the innocent peoples and the mages" (the mages are not peoples, yes?). Interestingly, how many people think appropriate/acceptable institutionalized oppression and terror, just because of fear... (Especially interesting from the perspective of a dalish mage, who was allways free...) Interestingly, many people disagree that the Circle is an example of institutionalized opression and terror, seeing it instead as reasonable and human precautions. It is. In theory. Mages are subject to dangers most muggles aren't, which makes them potential threats to themselves and others. Some sort of precautions are needed to minimize that risk. The problem is the human factor. Power tends to lead to abuse of power. And Templars ended up abusing their authority through misinterpretation (willful or otherwise) of the Chant of Light. One could ague that self-governance is the answer. In which case one needs only point to the Black Chantry and the Imperium. The whole mage/Templar thing is one big question of "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" "Who will guard the guards themselves?" or nowadays 'Who watches the watchmen?"
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 7, 2016 16:22:04 GMT
Played a Dalish Mage that sided with the Templars and for the most part with Viv. She found the Rebel Mages irrational, irresponsible, and short sighted and while I could rant about it for a while, long story short (and as nuanced as the conflict was) she decided to side with the faction who was not entirely responsible for the current dilemma they found themselves in, the Templars. The best way I can describe my thoughts on the Mage Rebellion is " The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". All rebellion are chaotic, no matter, that based on truth, or not. That "good intension" may that "The Circles and the Templars only protect the innocent peoples and the mages" (the mages are not peoples, yes?). Interestingly, how many people think appropriate/acceptable institutionalized oppression and terror, just because of fear... (Especially interesting from the perspective of a dalish mage, who was allways free...) Well I never said she (or I) approved the Circles in their entirety, nor does that mean there was no sympathy towards the Rebels. Just when it boiled down to it, and the results of the rebellion where scaled against the cost, the Ends of Rebellion do not justify the means. I made sure my toon did just about everything they could do before having to make the choice, but this is what she (and I) found. Even during a time of extreme tension and crisis for the Mages the vote for independance passed only by a small majority lead, meaning it is very likely that had time been given for things to settle down it is very unlikely that it would have passed ... and Fiona who had attempted and failed to push the Abolishing the Circles agenda before knew this very well. The Rebels didn't have a contingency in place for the nearly half of their population that wished to stay in the Circles, they just threw them to the wolves and hoped that those who survived would be desperate enough to join them. They clearly had no plan of how obtain the resources necessary to fight a rebellion, or even to live, in a world that feared and despised them, as evidence of them culling or abandoning much of their Tranquil population (and their Enchantments which was a key income source for Mages and the Circles). They weren't responsible enough to take the risk of dealing with or administering punishment on the hundreds of dangerous rogue apostates that were reaving and pillaging across the Thedas countryside (the very type of people that Circles were created to moderate in the first place) directly due to their decisions to disband the Circles, which further deteriorated their reputation with the people of Thedas. They had no unified voice, they had no unified goal, hell they didn't even seem to have a unified concept of what Freedom actually meant. They were merely a group of individuals thrown together because of a crisis, not a viable organization that one could make a stable alliance with or depend on. Above all, at least in regards to Fiona's Rebels in Redcliffe, the methods used to obtain their "freedom" were so ill thought out that if not for a third party intervening (The Inquisition) their entire population would have been killed or enslaved, which is exactly what happened due to my Inquisitor's choice to save the Templars instead. It may be a cruel assessment of situation, but it is a logical one. My ideal world state for DA:I (the one I'm working carefully towards right now) is the ending where the Circle and the College are about equal in strength, with Viv Grand Enchanter of the Circle and Unhardened Lele supporting and funding the College as Divine. I figure having both methods of Magic Management was the wise decision, the only issue is the requirement to obtain such an ending is to ally with Barris and the Templars and abandon Fiona and the Rebels.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 16:55:19 GMT
The solution is to side with the rebels, organize them and give them goals, tasks. Every revolution have their own looters, as long as the order is restored this is the fact. This was the (one) responsible of the Inquisition. I'm sorry for the Templars, but they did not want to join, Ser Barris followed his dick leader, instead of to join to the Inquisition. This was his choice. The Inquisitor tryed to help, he refused. Here I do not feel that the Templars are the "dark side", as in Kirkwall or in Ferelden, but after the choice of Ser Barris difficult to find a logical reason for me to go back for him and his people. I like Leliana as Divine.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 17:04:02 GMT
Interestingly, many people disagree that the Circle is an example of institutionalized opression and terror, seeing it instead as reasonable and human precautions. The problem is the human factor. Power tends to lead to abuse of power. And Templars ended up abusing their authority through misinterpretation (willful or otherwise) of the Chant of Light. One could ague that self-governance is the answer. In which case one needs only point to the Black Chantry and the Imperium. These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? Tevinter isn't the only place with free or near-free mages, just look at Nevarrra and Rivain (where the Chantry and Templars butchered the mages for spite). And even if I accept that some kind of anti-magic police is necessary, I have to ask, why the Templars? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 17:17:51 GMT
The problem is the human factor. Power tends to lead to abuse of power. And Templars ended up abusing their authority through misinterpretation (willful or otherwise) of the Chant of Light. One could ague that self-governance is the answer. In which case one needs only point to the Black Chantry and the Imperium. These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? Tevinter isn't the only place with free or near-free mages, just look at Nevarrra and Rivain (where the Chantry and Templars butchered the mages for spite). And even if I accept that some kind of anti-magic police is necessary, I have to ask, why the Templars? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? I like the extreme examples, I use them often. But yes, the templars are not good to control anything, because they are puppets.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 17:38:21 GMT
The problem is the human factor. Power tends to lead to abuse of power. And Templars ended up abusing their authority through misinterpretation (willful or otherwise) of the Chant of Light. One could ague that self-governance is the answer. In which case one needs only point to the Black Chantry and the Imperium. These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? Tevinter isn't the only place with free or near-free mages, just look at Nevarrra and Rivain (where the Chantry and Templars butchered the mages for spite). And even if I accept that some kind of anti-magic police is necessary, I have to ask, why the Templars? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? Not that I disagree with you or anything, but Templars/Seekers are the only organization that I know of that are specifically trained to deal with magic/demons. Most other forms of policing mages either involves some form of possession (Rivain, Avaar), managing mage population (Dalish) or a communal effort to make sure the mage is safe to be around. Many of these are successful to a degree. But as far as an anti-magic police force is concerned, Templars, Seekers and perhaps Magekillers are the only known options in terms relying on a mortal force to police magic. So in terms of choosing a police force to deal with magic, Templars/Seekers actually seem like a logical answer. It's just a shame they are so tied to religion. I suppose a possible alternative would a mage police force (as Viv once agreed with, "who understands the dangers of magic better than a mage?") or inducting mages back into Seeker ranks.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 7, 2016 17:55:14 GMT
These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? Tevinter isn't the only place with free or near-free mages, just look at Nevarrra and Rivain (where the Chantry and Templars butchered the mages for spite). And even if I accept that some kind of anti-magic police is necessary, I have to ask, why the Templars? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? So in terms of choosing a police force to deal with magic, Templars/Seekers actually seem like a logical answer. It's just a shame they are so tied to religion. I suppose a possible alternative would a mage police force (as Viv once agreed with, "who understands the dangers of magic better than a mage?") or inducting mages back into Seeker ranks. The Templars and the Seekers are corrupt beyond repair, and had a toxic ideology to start with. Wholesale replacement is the only answer, and that can happen in Inquisition, with most of the Templars going Red and not being restored, and making sure Cassandra doesn't bring back the Chantry's Gestapo.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 7, 2016 17:56:45 GMT
The problem is the human factor. Power tends to lead to abuse of power. And Templars ended up abusing their authority through misinterpretation (willful or otherwise) of the Chant of Light. One could ague that self-governance is the answer. In which case one needs only point to the Black Chantry and the Imperium. These are pretty extreme examples, aren't they? Tevinter isn't the only place with free or near-free mages, just look at Nevarrra and Rivain (where the Chantry and Templars butchered the mages for spite). And even if I accept that some kind of anti-magic police is necessary, I have to ask, why the Templars? A gang of religious lunatics who have proven again and again that they will abuse every power given to them in the name of their Maker? Would Arvaraad be better? At any rate, Nevarra is a nation of the southern Chantry, which just goes to show that there are places where things don't get too...extreme...where Templars are concerned. Why the Templars? Why not the Templars? Should each nation cultivate its own mage-police? Serious question, I can think of both pros and cons to it.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 7, 2016 18:05:20 GMT
The solution is to side with the rebels, organize them and give them goals, tasks. Every revolution have their own looters, as long as the order is restored this is the fact. This was the (one) responsible of the Inquisition. I'm sorry for the Templars, but they did not want to join, Ser Barris followed his dick leader, instead of to join to the Inquisition. This was his choice. The Inquisitor tryed to help, he refused. Here I do not feel that the Templars are the "dark side", as in Kirkwall or in Ferelden, but after the choice of Ser Barris difficult to find a logical reason for me to go back for him and his people. I like Leliana as Divine. The Problem is that there was never any order within the members of the Rebellion to begin with. They were too scattered, too divided, too (for lack of a better word) individualistic. Much of these issues stemming from the gross incompetence and general selfishness of the Rebel leadership (Especially Fiona), so inherently the only way to start fixing these issues is to replace those leaders ... which the game neither allows, nor would the Rebels appreciate if it were. I can never rationally bring myself to Ally with the Rebel Mages, both because they're isn't a functional organization to ally with or rely upon and because at bare minimum they are guilty of the crimes they've committed at Redcliffe. Conscription route is an absolute disaster post game since the Rebellion just starts up again and the Rebels all hate you for doing it. So I'm stuck in a loop with the Mages, with the only solution being to keep my hands off that Mess entirely and save the Templars instead, which my character had far less issues with doing despite being a Mage. Condemning them because their fake demon boss is a Jerk or the game franchise keeps telling you are the bad guys seems wrong. As much as the writers demonize the Templars in these games, I don't think we've experienced any group doing more damage to the Mages or their reputation than the Mages themselves. The Mage Circle of DA:O, the Circle Mages of DA2 (even the Grand Enchanter) ... so many of them turned to Blood Magic and became Abominations that you couldn't help but feel that they are their own worst enemies in regards to their relationship with the people of Thedas. Regardless of the reasons, they keep doing the very thing that people hate and fear them for and proving that yeah Mages are really damned dangerous to not only themselves, but everyone around them. As for the Inquisition organizing the Rebels ... that proves my point that they as rebellion were incapable of standing on their own and thus their validity as a movement was heavily diminished. Their ideals may be correct, but their methods and tactics were so flawed from the Get-go that they needed the Inquisition to save them physically and the Chantry to step in and save their reputation ... oh and fund their entire College system afterward since they were incapable of doing it themselves. While I realize their situation was dire, they somehow managed to accomplish nothing on their own but dig their own graves. It's not the Inquisitions job to fix their factional in-problems (at least from my Dalish's perspective).
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Post by xerrai on Sept 7, 2016 18:27:30 GMT
So in terms of choosing a police force to deal with magic, Templars/Seekers actually seem like a logical answer. It's just a shame they are so tied to religion. I suppose a possible alternative would a mage police force (as Viv once agreed with, "who understands the dangers of magic better than a mage?") or inducting mages back into Seeker ranks. The Templars and the Seekers are corrupt beyond repair, and had a toxic ideology to start with. Wholesale replacement is the only answer, and that can happen in Inquisition, with most of the Templars going Red and not being restored, and making sure Cassandra doesn't bring back the Chantry's Gestapo. But the question then, is what do you replace them with? A lyrium fed militia tied to the crown in each country? A completely new order that are taught similar techniques but are tied to neither nation or Chantry? Or would you rather lyrium be dropped entirely and rely on pure martial skill to combat magic and abominations? The Templars/Seekers may have their flaws, but they are currently (and I hate saying this) the best we got. Unless a viable alternative crops up, Templars/Seekers actually seem like the best chance we have of mortals combating magical misconduct.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 7, 2016 18:30:57 GMT
The solution is to side with the rebels, organize them and give them goals, tasks. Every revolution have their own looters, as long as the order is restored this is the fact. This was the (one) responsible of the Inquisition. I'm sorry for the Templars, but they did not want to join, Ser Barris followed his dick leader, instead of to join to the Inquisition. This was his choice. The Inquisitor tryed to help, he refused. Here I do not feel that the Templars are the "dark side", as in Kirkwall or in Ferelden, but after the choice of Ser Barris difficult to find a logical reason for me to go back for him and his people. I like Leliana as Divine. The Problem is that there was never any order within the members of the Rebellion to begin with. They were too scattered, too divided, too (for lack of a better word) individualistic. Much of these issues stemming from the gross incompetence and general selfishness of the Rebel leadership (Especially Fiona), so inherently the only way to start fixing these issues is to replace those leaders ... which the game neither allows, nor would the Rebels appreciate if it were. I can never rationally bring myself to Ally with the Rebel Mages, both because they're isn't a functional organization to ally with or rely upon and because at bare minimum they are guilty of the crimes they've committed at Redcliffe. Conscription route is an absolute disaster post game since the Rebellion just starts up again and the Rebels all hate you for doing it. So I'm stuck in a loop with the Mages, with the only solution being to keep my hands off that Mess entirely and save the Templars instead, which my character had far less issues with doing despite being a Mage. Condemning them because their fake demon boss is a Jerk or the game franchise keeps telling you are the bad guys seems wrong. As much as the writers demonize the Templars in these games, I don't think we've experienced any group doing more damage to the Mages or their reputation than the Mages themselves. The Mage Circle of DA:O, the Circle Mages of DA2 (even the Archmage) ... so many of them turned to Blood Magic and became Abominations that you couldn't help but feel that they are their own worst enemies in regards to their relationship with the people of Thedas. Regardless of the reasons, they keep doing the very thing that people hate and fear them for and proving that yeah Mages are really damned dangerous to not only themselves, but everyone around them. As for the Inquisition organizing the Rebels ... that proves my point that they as rebellion were incapable of standing on their own and thus their validity as a movement was heavily diminished. Their ideals may be correct, but their methods and tactics were so flawed from the Get-go that they needed the Inquisition to save them physically and the Chantry to step in and save their reputation ... oh and fund their entire College system afterward since they were incapable of doing it themselves. While I realize their situation was dire, they somehow managed to accomplish nothing on their own but dig their own graves. It's not the Inquisitions job to fix their factional in-problems (at least from my Dalish's perspective). You wonder, that they used the blood magic? They were in jail, in a hopeless situation, and against the Templars the blood magic the best weapon (and I think, magic is magic, just a tool. The self control is the point). The rebels was too individuals? Yes. I no wonder. The mages never had privacy in they whole life... Again I say, strange position from a dalish elf mage. Any other nation, class imaginable, but dalish/tal vashoth mages do not think that would support the Templars or vote to a jail for the mages. Maybe one Trevelyan, with a massive Stocholm syndrome, okay. I can only say: the rebel mages need organization, and the mages need respect. This is why is logical choice the rebels for an apostate/ex circle mage. And I think for a mage the Templars don't seems more reliable.
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