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Post by Warrick on Mar 21, 2017 15:25:26 GMT
Yes? I mean, games are also a product, but sure: Art is tyranny. ...I don't quite get the point of this post. He means Bioware should not have hired that woman people harassed a few days ago because he thinks she was unqualified to be a lead in a project as large as Andromeda and the current state of the product proves it. I'm not saying what I think, I'm just clarifying what he is referring to.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 21, 2017 15:25:47 GMT
Art does not have to be perfect to be good.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Mar 21, 2017 15:26:23 GMT
I like how they designed Drack
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 21, 2017 15:28:08 GMT
I gathered as much, and concerns like that are not totally unfounded in world where we replaced the benefits of diversity of thought and perspective with affirmative action programs based on irrelevant factors such as a race and gender... but I doubt that really was BW's problem this time around. I still think it's complacency on the part of BWs company leadership coupled with corporate demand by EA that caused this whole mess. I think Bioware did keep diversity in mind when hiring. Like when Justin Trudeau made his cabinet 50% women. This is a good thing. But I'm not convinced they hired the best, male or female. How the hell could the producer/director sign off on those visuals?! In 2017? It staggers the mind. Is it a good thing? "Diversity is our strength" certainly sounds nice in political speeches, but in reality? Anyways: Agreed, all I can imagine that they either a) really didn't see it (for whatever reason) or had no other choice due to time constrains...
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 15:42:24 GMT
Twilight is MacDonald's. Mass Effect was a Michelin rated filet mignon. Twilight is a Happy Meal. Mass Effect Trilogy is a Royale with Cheese. Touche
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 15:48:32 GMT
Art does not have to be perfect to be good. Very true. But it must strive to get as close to perfection as possible. For me, character visuals in ME play such a vital role in the game that sloppiness here is unforgivable. I can overlook Hamlet's MANY flaws in the silly plot because for me Shakespeare is all about character/psychology and theme.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 15:50:17 GMT
Maybe that's a good way to think of it. MEA is Shakespeare's sloppier work. ME2 was his Macbeth/Lear etc. ... So what's MEA? 'Two Gentlemen of Verona?', hmmm a bit short on m/m for that, 'Comedy of Errors' perhaps? Seriously though (and I loved the 10 hour trial) even a Shakespeare play with flaws has considerable merit, and I expect the same from MEA. MEA appears to have a few issues, some temporary, others more systemic. Whether that will be an ongoing issue comes down to your personal preferences, hence the polarized reviews. I agree to an extent. I'm sure I will enjoy the game. But not at full price. Maybe by the time the discounts start rolling out, some of the "tired faces" will be freshened up a bit.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 21, 2017 15:52:08 GMT
It looked to me like he was trying to find a covert way to complain about diversity, actually. Not diversity. I tried to make that clear. I don't think the producers and directors were up to the task. Because too many of them were diversity hires. You think it. Own it. Protip: When referring to a company which is known to have diverse hiring, it"s no longer rhetorically useful to use phrases like It used to work, but I'm afraid the Gamergaters have poisoned that well. It just reads like a plea for straight while males to return to their rightful place.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 15:54:20 GMT
I think Bioware did keep diversity in mind when hiring. Like when Justin Trudeau made his cabinet 50% women. This is a good thing. But I'm not convinced they hired the best, male or female. How the hell could the producer/director sign off on those visuals?! In 2017? It staggers the mind. Is it a good thing? "Diversity is our strength" certainly sounds nice in political speeches, but in reality? Anyways: Agreed, all I can imagine that they either a) really didn't see it (for whatever reason) or had no other choice due to time constrains... Yeah. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Only the GG assholes would rant about women in gaming. The rest of us are terrified of being labeled a GG thug. BW should continue to strive for diversity, but not at the expense of talent.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 15:57:19 GMT
Not diversity. I tried to make that clear. I don't think the producers and directors were up to the task. Because too many of them were diversity hires. You think it. Own it. Protip: When referring to a company which is known to have diverse hiring, it"s no longer rhetorically useful to use phrases like It used to work, but I'm afraid the Gamergaters have poisoned that well. It just reads like a plea for straight while males to return to their rightful place. Yes, indeed. GGers have poisoned that well. Extremists on all sides poison every well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 16:00:02 GMT
In business, one hires who they can afford to pay. OP - "punishing" this company will not get you a better RPG out of them. It will merely sink them.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 21, 2017 16:03:37 GMT
Is it a good thing? "Diversity is our strength" certainly sounds nice in political speeches, but in reality? Anyways: Agreed, all I can imagine that they either a) really didn't see it (for whatever reason) or had no other choice due to time constrains... Yeah. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Only the GG assholes would rant about women in gaming. The rest of us are terrified of being labeled a GG thug. BW should continue to strive for diversity, but not at the expense of talent. People should have actually listened to those "assholes" a bit more, not only buy into what the opposing sides made of them... that just as an aside. Agreed, though I'm not entirely convinced that will ever work... not really, and especially not as certain political elements think it should.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 16:04:17 GMT
In business, one hires who they can afford to pay. OP - "punishing" this company will not get you a better RPG out of them. It will merely sink them. I don't think BW is in danger. I have great hopes for the MEA2. But they have to learn from their mistakes.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 16:06:03 GMT
Yeah. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Only the GG assholes would rant about women in gaming. The rest of us are terrified of being labeled a GG thug. BW should continue to strive for diversity, but not at the expense of talent. People should have actually listened to those "assholes" a bit more, not only buy into what the opposing sides made of them... that just as an aside. Agreed, though I'm not entirely convinced that will ever work... not really, and especially not as certain political elements think it should. It's a rocky road to the future. But we'll get there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 16:09:48 GMT
In business, one hires who they can afford to pay. OP - "punishing" this company will not get you a better RPG out of them. It will merely sink them. I don't think BW is in danger. I have great hopes for the MEA2. But they have to learn from their mistakes. I disagree... I think they are in trouble because the "best" is not going to hire on with them and they are not going to be able to pay the salary rates the "best" want to command for they work. It's not like the NHL, were the underdog team gets first draft pick to compensate. The fans have been sucking the heart of out this company for a long time now. Look into the eyes of the people from Bioware during interviews. They've been badly scarred by their fans emotionally; and I don't think they have enough "heart" left in them to try to overcome this belligerent fan base yet another time.
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Post by mordrek on Mar 21, 2017 16:12:19 GMT
Who'd have thought expressing your opinion that they should be hiring the most talented person for the job, would ever be controversial. Smh. Strange times we live in.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 21, 2017 16:14:30 GMT
People should have actually listened to those "assholes" a bit more, not only buy into what the opposing sides made of them... that just as an aside. Agreed, though I'm not entirely convinced that will ever work... not really, and especially not as certain political elements think it should. It's a rocky road to the future. But we'll get there. One way or the other...
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 16:24:37 GMT
I don't think BW is in danger. I have great hopes for the MEA2. But they have to learn from their mistakes. I disagree... I think they are in trouble because the "best" is not going to hire on with them and they are not going to be able to pay the salary rates the "best" want to command for they work. It's not like the NHL, were the underdog team gets first draft pick to compensate. The fans have been sucking the heart of out this company for a long time now. Look into the eyes of the people from Bioware during interviews. They've been badly scarred by their fans emotionally; and I don't think they have enough "heart" left in them to try to overcome this belligerent fan base yet another time. Yeah, the belligerence is unfair. But rational criticism is not just fair. It's necessary. And the only voice I have for that criticism is my wallet.
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 21, 2017 16:33:39 GMT
snip Outlast 2 was banned in Australia because of depictions of sexual violence... ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Well, I agree with that.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 21, 2017 16:40:54 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Well, I agree with that. The ban? Well, then games are not art, since censoring art isn't a thing in an open and free society... either that, or it's no longer such a society. ...which would be the worse scenario, to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 16:53:38 GMT
I disagree... I think they are in trouble because the "best" is not going to hire on with them and they are not going to be able to pay the salary rates the "best" want to command for they work. It's not like the NHL, were the underdog team gets first draft pick to compensate. The fans have been sucking the heart of out this company for a long time now. Look into the eyes of the people from Bioware during interviews. They've been badly scarred by their fans emotionally; and I don't think they have enough "heart" left in them to try to overcome this belligerent fan base yet another time. Yeah, the belligerence is unfair. But rational criticism is not just fair. It's necessary. And the only voice I have for that criticism is my wallet. Above, you openly advocated for "punishing" the company for their mistakes. That is NOT rational criticism. Stop pretending to be some sort of "hero." This fan base has been flogging a dead horse for a long time now and every time someone here calls them on it, they resort this line about "fair criticism." Punishing is not fair criticism and it merely sucks the "heart" out of creative people. It's counterproductive to the goal of getting improved RPGs out of this company. I'm merely stating a fact... you want a budding new artist to produce better art, you encourage them. You don't slam them into the dirt every time they try. The thing with beating a dead horse is once it's dead, it doesn't get up again and, as wise as you might think you are, you just can't teach it any more lessons. The "best" don't hire on with companies with bad reps with their fans... so, after this, Bioware certainly will not be likely able to just "hire the best" per your demand.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 16:59:01 GMT
Yes? I mean, games are also a product, but sure: Art is tyranny. ...I don't quite get the point of this post. He means Bioware should not have hired that woman people harassed a few days ago because he thinks she was unqualified to be a lead in a project as large as Andromeda and the current state of the product proves it. I'm not saying what I think, I'm just clarifying what he is referring to. This is the kind of reductionist thinking that stifles debate. We reduce all complexity to a simple, Twitter-ready ejaculation. Left and right do this. Rationale, nuanced thought is forbidden, shunned. Heresy is declared and the heretic is conveniently banished from sight. And we all retreat to our comfortable echo-chambers.
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 21, 2017 17:01:03 GMT
Yes? I mean, games are also a product, but sure: Art is tyranny. ...I don't quite get the point of this post. He means Bioware should not have hired that woman people harassed a few days ago because he thinks she was unqualified to be a lead in a project as large as Andromeda and the current state of the product proves it. I'm not saying what I think, I'm just clarifying what he is referring to. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Well, that is a simplistic view of how a project is managed. Placing sole responsibility for the animation dept on one person is silly. She, has a BOSS1 and the BOSS1 has a BOSS2... etc. In 2016 Bio mentioned they had frequent meetings with EA, which to me means everybody under the sun knew the state of the game.
What happened, imo, is that the amount of man hours for animation work (frankly, in other areas as well, imo) was totally underestimated and the game extension was insufficient to correct these errors. Plus, for a proper job, the face animation must be "tuned" for every cut scene. There is no cookie cutter short cut, I'm afraid.
The real question is whether Bio/EA will undertake to fix the facial animation. Possibly the next DLC will have these fixed to get good reviews, at least.
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Post by dis_Op2399 on Mar 21, 2017 17:25:32 GMT
How funny to see the indignant pitchfork wielding. The way people are talking you'd think that the original trilogy was some timeless piece of breathtaking animation to rival Disney or Ghibli, and not the meme machine of lulz that it frequently was. And to hear criticism of Gamergate in the same breath! Many trace GG to the "entitlement culture" that first appeared when people started raging over the ME3 ending. Indeed this current hate train is already being spun as the same evil gaming culture that Twitter normies decried GG as representing.
Yes, ME:A has some terrible animations and cinematics - but guess what? It's a video game. Most of the time is spent blowing aliens heads off with all manner of intricate violence.
Shakespeare?!? Seriously?
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Post by Warrick on Mar 21, 2017 17:27:11 GMT
He means Bioware should not have hired that woman people harassed a few days ago because he thinks she was unqualified to be a lead in a project as large as Andromeda and the current state of the product proves it. I'm not saying what I think, I'm just clarifying what he is referring to. This is the kind of reductionist thinking that stifles debate. We reduce all complexity to a simple, Twitter-ready ejaculation. Left and right do this. Rationale, nuanced thought is forbidden, shunned. Heresy is declared and the heretic is conveniently banished from sight. And we all retreat to our comfortable echo-chambers. I'm not declaring you a heretic mate. You are the one oversimplifying things. Without any sort of real information, you decided that woman was the cause of Andromeda's animation problems. The truth is you have no clue what happened (and neither have we). So you have no business adivising Bioware. Stop being so defensive and try to make a better case for your points going forward.
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