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Post by Warrick on Mar 21, 2017 20:19:35 GMT
Sorry if I've sounded overly harsh in this thread. I want to stress the point that when the topic is real life, we really need to check our facts before reaching conclusions. It's easy and dangerous (and factually wrong) to slip into a narrative that we're predisposed to accept. But critical thinking must prevail if our judgments and advice are going to have any value. The other way leads to the pitchforks.
Speculation is fun when it's about why the Reapers aren't in Andromeda or why the templars aren't more lenient on beneficial spirits. None of it is real so we might as well let our imagination loose.
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Post by surelyforth on Mar 21, 2017 20:26:12 GMT
I like how blame is subtly (and not so subtly) being pinned on ~diversity hires~, while that Glassdoor review indicates that it's actually nepotism and "bro culture", which to me is pretty much the opposite of that, considering "bro culture" tends to center on insular groups of men who support one another to the detriment of others and who get promoted by their buddies further up the ladder while more qualified people get passed over.
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Post by nothv13 on Mar 21, 2017 20:36:58 GMT
Having known what what crunch time is like in similar fields, it can be harsh. So harsh that such things actually destroy passion that people have and is one for the biggest reason why people leave the field or leave certain employers in the field. This isn't the first report of harsh work conditions. EA has in the past been accused of such and chances are there is truth in it. Anything that removes employee benefits can be seen as harsh working conditions. The statements of harassment not being dealt with can be seen as harsh working conditions. It doesn't make claims made by the person are true and repeatedly states that they don't know how true it all is. If they were trying to smear, they'd do like the MSM and insist it is all true. As far as what the article was covering, the review of the company posted by someone, they checked all the facts. They are not going to be getting any more fact than that, because Bioware isn't going to substantiate any claims and they do not have the legal power to force such. You can get all defensive about it if you want... Sensationalism is not the epitome of great journalism. ME:A is not Shakespeare. Bioware is just a company... one that, given thiis outcome for ME:A, probably will not be able to hire "the best" in the foreseeable future. No where do I say the article is great journalism, just that it holds far more integrity in the report than many articles since it admits things like not having all the facts (because they will never have all the facts) or that the statements may be false (because the source is unvetted). You call it sensationalism, I call it reporting a story while commenting on the validity (statements that it may not be true) of the statements. Sensationalist Journalism is done by places like CNN did with Trump's tax returns, claim something horrible no matter the facts, never admitting that they were wrong. The headline of the article reads "Alleged BioWare Employee Details Harsh Working Conditions". That is simply a statement of fact since the alleged employee did do such in his review. It starts off with a word that is meant to call into question of the validity of the source, to show that it may or may not be true. A sensationalist headline for this article would read more like this "Bioware loses high talent workers due to unfair and harmful working environment". You see one speaks on a simple fact, the other draws a conclusion despite lack of evidence and spins it in a manner fitting the goal of the article. Further a sensationalist article wouldn't constantly be saying they lack the facts or even remotely question the validity of the source. A sensationalist article certainly wouldn't end with a statement to take all the claims with a huge grain of salt like this article did.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 21, 2017 20:47:19 GMT
I call bullshit on it, honestly. Plus anyone complaining about a 30 minute free lunch being a negative of their experience because they were rushed has little sympathy for me.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 22:57:28 GMT
So, the tally so far:
-Diversity hires -Bro culture
I'm guessing it's some form of dysfunctional workplace environment. A combination of many elements, including those above.
Again, it's all speculation. But when something goes wrong, there's usually a dysfunctional team involved.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 23:03:04 GMT
Sorry if I've sounded overly harsh in this thread. I want to stress the point that when the topic is real life, we really need to check our facts before reaching conclusions. It's easy and dangerous (and factually wrong) to slip into a narrative that we're predisposed to accept. But critical thinking must prevail if our judgments and advice are going to have any value. The other way leads to the pitchforks. Speculation is fun when it's about why the Reapers aren't in Andromeda or why the templars aren't more lenient on beneficial spirits. None of it is real so we might as well let our imagination loose. No problem. It's easy to get excited about a game we all love so much. It's a part of my identity, in the way that a hockey fan will feel part of his/her team. You make many good points. I try hard not to jump to conclusions, too. We have to fight the hard-left and hard-right. Pre-disposition is a real problem. I'm trying to critically think my way through this trauma (ha!). Make sense of it.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 23:07:31 GMT
I call bullshit on it, honestly. Plus anyone complaining about a 30 minute free lunch being a negative of their experience because they were rushed has little sympathy for me. Sure. Could be a disgruntled jackass who was rightfully fired. We'll never know for sure. This, plus the sloppiness, does suggest dysfunction of some kind, though.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 23:10:17 GMT
I like how blame is subtly (and not so subtly) being pinned on ~diversity hires~, while that Glassdoor review indicates that it's actually nepotism and "bro culture", which to me is pretty much the opposite of that, considering "bro culture" tends to center on insular groups of men who support one another to the detriment of others and who get promoted by their buddies further up the ladder while more qualified people get passed over. Could very well be the case. I suspect a confluence of factors.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 21, 2017 23:17:05 GMT
This posting is really a plea to Bioware to get it right.
They obviously have an agenda. A good one. Diversity. DAI was a bit ham-fisted, but they're trying. I love it.
However, ideology can be a very destructive force (watch Doctor Zhivago). Red-Guardism ruined China for 100 years.
If (big if) BW had, in fact, been following an ideology (Bro or SJ), bad things may have been the result. And yes, in terms of hiring.
The focus should be on quality. All else is secondary.
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Post by jastall on Mar 21, 2017 23:27:32 GMT
I call bullshit on it, honestly. Plus anyone complaining about a 30 minute free lunch being a negative of their experience because they were rushed has little sympathy for me. It's not exactly unheard of in Québec, yeah, If memory serves, 30 minutes is the minimum if you work 8 hours a day. They may work more than that, I don't know the details, and it may be a drop from what employees are accustomed to. But it's hardly slavedriving, since the company even pays for said lunch. For most of my jobs, I had 30-45 minutes and I had to bring mine or go buy it. The part about leadership butting heads is sad, seems likely to me, but isn't uncommon in any and every workplace environment. But the part that puzzles me most is the cases of outright harassment being ignored by HR. Law tends to take such things rather seriously around here, and someone filing complaints could get a serious case going. Especially since Montréal is very much a place where even a moderately skilled employee in tech can find work without too much trouble, there's tons of film and game studios around here. It doesn't seem likely that the company would let systematic harassment happen.
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Post by degs29 on Mar 22, 2017 2:18:56 GMT
Tell me then, how did Hal manage to beat Hotspur in single combat? It makes no fucking sense. Hotspur is a veteran, while Hal spends all his time drinking and fooling around. Sorry. That is just a pet peeve of mine. Read Roland Barthes or Louise Rosenblatt or something. They may have other ideas about art and writing. Maybe that's a good way to think of it. MEA is Shakespeare's sloppier work. ME2 was his Macbeth/Lear etc. That's why we have to punish BW now. Make them try harder next time. We punish them too hard, there won't be a next time.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 2:22:50 GMT
Maybe that's a good way to think of it. MEA is Shakespeare's sloppier work. ME2 was his Macbeth/Lear etc. That's why we have to punish BW now. Make them try harder next time. We punish them too hard, there won't be a next time. I don't think that's a problem. ME is a cash cow, like Star Wars. They know it. It just might take a few flops to get it back on track, like Star Wars.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 2:27:16 GMT
I call bullshit on it, honestly. Plus anyone complaining about a 30 minute free lunch being a negative of their experience because they were rushed has little sympathy for me. It's not exactly unheard of in Québec, yeah, If memory serves, 30 minutes is the minimum if you work 8 hours a day. They may work more than that, I don't know the details, and it may be a drop from what employees are accustomed to. But it's hardly slavedriving, since the company even pays for said lunch. For most of my jobs, I had 30-45 minutes and I had to bring mine or go buy it. The part about leadership butting heads is sad, seems likely to me, but isn't uncommon in any and every workplace environment. But the part that puzzles me most is the cases of outright harassment being ignored by HR. Law tends to take such things rather seriously around here, and someone filing complaints could get a serious case going. Especially since Montréal is very much a place where even a moderately skilled employee in tech can find work without too much trouble, there's tons of film and game studios around here. It doesn't seem likely that the company would let systematic harassment happen. Could be the case. I'm betting various dysfunctionalities. Whatever the hell that means. Maybe not harassment. All the old guard left. That doesn't suggest team harmony. Alas.
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Post by degs29 on Mar 22, 2017 2:29:54 GMT
We punish them too hard, there won't be a next time. I don't think that's a problem. ME is a cash cow, like Star Wars. They know it. It just might take a few flops to get it back on track, like Star Wars. Hope you're right, because I thought ME3 painted them into a corner! Now, matters are worse.
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Post by mordrek on Mar 22, 2017 2:34:01 GMT
I like how blame is subtly (and not so subtly) being pinned on ~diversity hires~, while that Glassdoor review indicates that it's actually nepotism and "bro culture", which to me is pretty much the opposite of that, considering "bro culture" tends to center on insular groups of men who support one another to the detriment of others and who get promoted by their buddies further up the ladder while more qualified people get passed over. You seem to believe, nepotism, "bro culture," and "diversity hiring" would be mutually exclusive. A mandate for "diversity hiring" would come from the very top, and be enforced by HR onto Department Managers.
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Post by laughingbanana on Mar 22, 2017 2:58:00 GMT
This thread is like art too.
And by art I mean when they splatter cans of paints into a wall and then call it art.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Mar 22, 2017 3:21:39 GMT
Art is not a democracy. It is a tyranny. We bow down before Shakespeare, Nina Simone, and Margaret Atwood because they are absolute monarchs of their craft and art. Please Bioware, hire the best. Male, female, straight, gay, and all the colours of the rainbow. But only the best. Sloppiness is unforgivable. It is breaking my heart to write this. (no hate here, please) Art bends in the direction the purse holder dictates it to.Most major works of art were commissions and not a random doodle that was sold from a ramshackle stall in the market.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 22, 2017 3:40:32 GMT
Art is not a democracy. It is a tyranny. We bow down before Shakespeare, Nina Simone, and Margaret Atwood because they are absolute monarchs of their craft and art. Please Bioware, hire the best. Male, female, straight, gay, and all the colours of the rainbow. But only the best. Sloppiness is unforgivable. It is breaking my heart to write this. (no hate here, please) Art bends in the direction the purse holder dictates it to.Most major works of art were commissions and not a random doodle that was sold from a ramshackle stall in the market. True. There's a reason why a lot of masterpieces can be found in churches, castles and generally around rich folks. Plus, it's a very push and pull thing. Artists 'talk' through their art - it's a form of expression. Whatever force it has, it usually doesn't stem from just artist dictating their art at us. Most of us don't like being shouted at or forced into things. And great deal of good artists know that they need audience in order for art, well... be actualized as art. There's not really much 'arting' going on without an audience, and to have an audience one has to know how to talk to it.
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Post by Fredward on Mar 22, 2017 4:11:11 GMT
Is there literally any factual basis for OPs implication or is this all supposition?
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 4:20:43 GMT
You could've elaborate more on what specifically you meant but I think j agree and I've shared (but not often told) the same sentiment. The same rule goes for the tendency of asking players what they want or responding to feedback with DLCs that give fans exactly what they asked for. BioWare are not always being artistic with their storytelling and my take on the ending was that the damage had been done in the first place, but BioWare owed it to themselves or their IP to fix it moreso than fans. Don't change something because I personally don't like it. Change or improve something if it is objectively faulty. Exactly. There were a whole bunch of us who repeatedly explained what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint, but that's obviously not the feedback that stuck. Instead we got Hurrdromeda.
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 4:24:01 GMT
Art does not have to be perfect to be good. Perfection is what makes it art.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 22, 2017 6:08:28 GMT
Art does not have to be perfect to be good. Perfection is what makes it art. There's no such thing as perfection. In fact, often the beauty lies in the flaws. When I was attending art academy, it wasn't rare when the purpose was to push boundaries or make intentional mistakes, and find interesting things in them. Each work is a lesson - and it's no different with Andromeda.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 13:03:36 GMT
Is there literally any factual basis for OPs implication or is this all supposition? There is observation, taste and opinion. At least that's how I relate to his statement. Authenticity is probably the keyword we're looking for. You risk being very inauthentic as an artist if you base what you create on what other people have been asking for and not your own personal motivations for doing it. It can become dishonest, like the Token LGBT support this game has (maybe outside of Liam) or the pandering of ME1 fandom which feels more like the writers and Montreal devs couldn't let go of their own fandom and were simultaneously too afraid to take too many risks. Going to Andromeda does seem like a big risk but they keep referencing the trilogy or rip off other movies at every corner, it doens't feel very authentic and a big part of it comes from the fact that this game's conception began with asking fans on social media "what they wanted", then holding a convention where their privately-invited fanbase had to sign a poll for which aliens to include vs not if they had to choose, they brought back the Mako -- it's all this "We're going back to roots, hey fans, this is the Mass Effect you asked for". Really good artists never listen to their fanbase, they just keep going the same way they went when they created the first entry point of their IP when there were no fans yet. Good ideas and small pandering ideas can come along as the series grows from its entry point but at some point certain artists take it too far and give fans exactly everything they asked for and then it loses something because the artist themselves are not honest about what they've created and the entire thing is just a big compromise from their site. There's a saying that you have to be cruel to your characters for example, and I believe it's Chris Avellone (one of many) who said that the protagonist is defined by their struggle, which comes from a good antagonist, but BioWare's eagerness to do what fans want, to please them, give them romances, and characters that cannot die as a result of the story for one thing, is them refusing to take the risk it requires to make a good, authentic story.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 14:01:35 GMT
Perfection is what makes it art. There's no such thing as perfection. In fact, often the beauty lies in the flaws. When I was attending art academy, it wasn't rare when the purpose was to push boundaries or make intentional mistakes, and find interesting things in them. Each work is a lesson - and it's no different with Andromeda. Imperfection can be part of perfection. But sloppiness is unforgivable. You must have seen or read something about Japanese pottery, the tea bowls. Wabi-Sabi. Deliberate roughness is central to beauty in this aesthetic. But it's the polar opposite of sloppiness.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 14:09:53 GMT
Art bends in the direction the purse holder dictates it to.Most major works of art were commissions and not a random doodle that was sold from a ramshackle stall in the market. True. There's a reason why a lot of masterpieces can be found in churches, castles and generally around rich folks. Plus, it's a very push and pull thing. Artists 'talk' through their art - it's a form of expression. Whatever force it has, it usually doesn't stem from just artist dictating their art at us. Most of us don't like being shouted at or forced into things. And great deal of good artists know that they need audience in order for art, well... be actualized as art. There's not really much 'arting' going on without an audience, and to have an audience one has to know how to talk to it. I agree totally. Push and pull must be frustrating for the makers of big media pieces like ME and movies. J.K. Rowling pulls it off nicely. Her love of people shines throughout the novels, but she manages to avoid mere pandering by including a healthy dose of hardcore symbolism and thematic elements. The struggle continues.
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