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Post by Fredward on Mar 22, 2017 14:30:02 GMT
Is there literally any factual basis for OPs implication or is this all supposition? There is observation, taste and opinion. At least that's how I relate to his statement. Authenticity is probably the keyword we're looking for. You risk being very inauthentic as an artist if you base what you create on what other people have been asking for and not your own personal motivations for doing it. It can become dishonest, like the Token LGBT support this game has (maybe outside of Liam) or the pandering of ME1 fandom which feels more like the writers and Montreal devs couldn't let go of their own fandom and were simultaneously too afraid to take too many risks. Going to Andromeda does seem like a big risk but they keep referencing the trilogy or rip off other movies at every corner, it doens't feel very authentic and a big part of it comes from the fact that this game's conception began with asking fans on social media "what they wanted", then holding a convention where their privately-invited fanbase had to sign a poll for which aliens to include vs not if they had to choose, they brought back the Mako -- it's all this "We're going back to roots, hey fans, this is the Mass Effect you asked for". Really good artists never listen to their fanbase, they just keep going the same way they went when they created the first entry point of their IP when there were no fans yet. Good ideas and small pandering ideas can come along as the series grows from its entry point but at some point certain artists take it too far and give fans exactly everything they asked for and then it loses something because the artist themselves are not honest about what they've created and the entire thing is just a big compromise from their site. There's a saying that you have to be cruel to your characters for example, and I believe it's Chris Avellone (one of many) who said that the protagonist is defined by their struggle, which comes from a good antagonist, but BioWare's eagerness to do what fans want, to please them, give them romances, and characters that cannot die as a result of the story for one thing, is them refusing to take the risk it requires to make a good, authentic story. Okay? I'm unsure whether that answered my question but it was certainly an answer. Bioware is a business. Not an artists' conclave. They hire artists but they are not making art for the sake of it, they make it to sell. They will always adapt to their audience or who they perceive their audience to be or who they want their audience to be. Another issue with this whole line of thought is: how do you know whatever it is they're doing now is not true to their artistic vision? Because you don't like it? That's not a valid reason.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 14:38:31 GMT
Yeah, I get that. It's hard to define how "authenticity" as I put it works when there are not only 10 writers per project but also it has a service function to it as being games made for consumers and the games give you choice and consequence.
But I stand by what I mean in that even a company like BioWare and even if it's a business, it should be possible to make it an "artist's conclave" because when you give me a dialogue wheel with choices and you give me characters to interact with and a story that can variate... even though there's a lot of freedom in that you're ultimatley given me prescripted content which, if designed well, has a coherent message in it even if there are 3 different responses and LGBT justice and inclusivity to many sorts of gamers. Ultimately it's up to BioWare to decide what focus the games they make as a whole encompasses which, once you've seen it all and look at it from afar could have central themes or ideas.
Video games is just another form of expression same way as how movies stimulate the mind with moving images mixed with sound and acting and good writing. In games interactivity is the component with the biggest effect.
However, if you keep riffing off exactly what your audience wants to see and you're also not figuring out how that contributes to whatever themes or ideas your game is supposed to represent, then you're failing as an author even if this author includes 100+ developers including writers and animators and a huge profit-Shark that is called EA to boot, meddling with everything you do. It can still be art. Period... but it's 100% counter-constructive if your fanbase is your primary focus that you pander to without figuring out how your pandering elements compliment the remainder of what is in the game. Instead we just have a lot of cool things that are inserted without thinking big-picture. Yeah, it's cool that the Mako is back, but is it really the best tool for the Pathfinder who has to be many places at the same time? Is it really a good idea to bring so many Milky Way races back including your crew if the theme is supposed to be about cultural discovery and meeting "alien" races? I'm not saying it couldn't work but they don't do themselves any favors with the execution here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 14:39:29 GMT
You could've elaborate more on what specifically you meant but I think j agree and I've shared (but not often told) the same sentiment. The same rule goes for the tendency of asking players what they want or responding to feedback with DLCs that give fans exactly what they asked for. BioWare are not always being artistic with their storytelling and my take on the ending was that the damage had been done in the first place, but BioWare owed it to themselves or their IP to fix it moreso than fans. Don't change something because I personally don't like it. Change or improve something if it is objectively faulty. Exactly. There were a whole bunch of us who repeatedly explained what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint, but that's obviously not the feedback that stuck. Instead we got Hurrdromeda. So, your position is to tell them... "Don't listen to all your other fans, but listen to just me and the fans that agree with me instead." How charmingly hypocritical.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 22, 2017 15:37:47 GMT
Art does not have to be perfect to be good. Perfection is what makes it art. What makes art perfect? That varies from person to person.
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I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by fatherjerusalem on Mar 22, 2017 16:07:48 GMT
Oh goody. A thinly veiled "waaaaaah BioWare's SJW agenda is ruining everything!!!11o!!one!1! waaaaaaah why are they promoting diversity!11!11one!1!" thread.
Haven't had one of these in.. about a minute and a half.
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Post by Addictress on Mar 22, 2017 16:36:28 GMT
I do have to agree with this.
I believe it has something to do with how reality is experienced subjectively for all of us, and our very conception of reality is in fact so incredibly tied to our own personal unique backgrounds and lenses, that you cannot have some multivariable perception of reality.
A game is like a simulation of reality, and it is somehow more believable when it is shaped by a consistent pattern of thought that is like an internal and subjective lense to one particular artist and only that one artist. When you have a game shaped by multiple visions and angles, the game's impression upon the player becomes far weaker.
Even if you do not agree with an artist's perception, or with the lense presented, that is what art should be - the ability to transport you into someone else's mind for a brief time, looking out onto the reality they see and how they see it, trapped in the severed shell that contains us all.
It is difficult to describe why, but it is easy for us to detect.
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 16:43:23 GMT
Exactly. There were a whole bunch of us who repeatedly explained what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint, but that's obviously not the feedback that stuck. Instead we got Hurrdromeda. So, your position is to tell them... "Don't listen to all your other fans, but listen to just me and the fans that agree with me instead." How charmingly hypocritical. If the "other fans" were correct, the game would be rated the high 90s like the other ME games, but instead it's their worst rated game of all time behind even the mess that was DAII.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 22, 2017 17:09:49 GMT
You could've elaborate more on what specifically you meant but I think j agree and I've shared (but not often told) the same sentiment. The same rule goes for the tendency of asking players what they want or responding to feedback with DLCs that give fans exactly what they asked for. BioWare are not always being artistic with their storytelling and my take on the ending was that the damage had been done in the first place, but BioWare owed it to themselves or their IP to fix it moreso than fans. Don't change something because I personally don't like it. Change or improve something if it is objectively faulty. Exactly. There were a whole bunch of us who repeatedly explained what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint, but that's obviously not the feedback that stuck. Instead we got Hurrdromeda. Wait a minute. Even assuming that "what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint" has a clear and singular meaning, does ME:A do the same things wrong?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 22, 2017 17:11:48 GMT
Oh goody. A thinly veiled "waaaaaah BioWare's SJW agenda is ruining everything!!!11o!!one!1! waaaaaaah why are they promoting diversity!11!11one!1!" thread. Haven't had one of these in.. about a minute and a half. Well, one of the advantages of the veil is that it lets the thread move in a more productive direction. It's an improvement over the OP's last thread, which crashed, burned, and locked.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 17:13:07 GMT
Oh goody. A thinly veiled "waaaaaah BioWare's SJW agenda is ruining everything!!!11o!!one!1! waaaaaaah why are they promoting diversity!11!11one!1!" thread. Haven't had one of these in.. about a minute and a half. You haven't read my posts. Especially the ones on knee-jerk reactions. We're trying to have a serious, nuanced conversation about all the things that could have gone wrong. Please join us. Diversity rules. It's the implementation of it that's tricky.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 22, 2017 19:18:45 GMT
Oh goody. A thinly veiled "waaaaaah BioWare's SJW agenda is ruining everything!!!11o!!one!1! waaaaaaah why are they promoting diversity!11!11one!1!" thread. Haven't had one of these in.. about a minute and a half. Well, one of the advantages of the veil is that it lets the thread move in a more productive direction. It's an improvement over the OP's last thread, which crashed, burned, and locked. I think combating extremism is very productive. Well, maybe not always productive. But it's important.
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 20:46:02 GMT
Exactly. There were a whole bunch of us who repeatedly explained what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint, but that's obviously not the feedback that stuck. Instead we got Hurrdromeda. Wait a minute. Even assuming that "what they did wrong from a narrative viewpoint" has a clear and singular meaning, does ME:A do the same things wrong? You misunderstand. Andromeda does not repeat ME3's mistakes so much as it acts as an extension of them. Without ME3's endings, Mass Effect: Andromeda would never have been made and people would be playing Mass Effect: Milky Way instead. Not that it would have guaranteed the game's quality - facial animations, technical issues and bad gameplay would still be a problem regardless of whether ME3's narrative blunders were fixed or not.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 22, 2017 21:14:08 GMT
That's clearer.. But I don't see what you're saying ME:A should have done differently beyond not having those facial animation problems and so forth.
Is there anything they should have tried to do differently?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 23:27:00 GMT
So, your position is to tell them... "Don't listen to all your other fans, but listen to just me and the fans that agree with me instead." How charmingly hypocritical. If the "other fans" were correct, the game would be rated the high 90s like the other ME games, but instead it's their worst rated game of all time behind even the mess that was DAII. ... but since they didn't listen to you, there's really no way of knowing whether or not following your advice would have put it in the high 90s or not. It's your assumption that it would because you believe you're correct. Those other fans also believed they were correct. I have no problem with Bioware polling their fanbase for suggestions, desires, etc. What they do with that information is their business... because they are the ones assuming the risk if the game fails. At least when they poll their fans they are asking the questions and obtaining feedback in the areas they want it.
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