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Post by commandercole5 on Apr 1, 2017 17:08:33 GMT
The pacing on side quests is what screwed with me badly, I am tired as hell of open worlds that are big for the sake of being big (Like this one) I want more packed with stuff to do that doesn't involve so much fetch and get and activate, I want unique throw ins liek HZD has.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 17:16:45 GMT
Side quests in MEA are far from being fetch quests that can be possible in a game with this scale
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 1, 2017 17:18:29 GMT
It's 2017. I really have no interest in a linear RPG when many games are able to present a damn good story and have the freedom of open world environments. Even with Dishonored 2, as much as I loved that game, I find it hard to play after one play through because of the linear levels.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 1, 2017 17:21:31 GMT
The uncharted worlds were the best part of ME. I think ME 1 had the right idea with the UNC planets but not the best execution. Still ME1 made their important main quest stuff more linear and the optional stuff was land in the mako and explore. Now with their hardware they should be able to do what ME 1 did without the copy/pate and make the main quest stuff linear but big linear. To be honest, I'd rather the main quest not be linear.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 1, 2017 17:25:33 GMT
I think ME 1 had the right idea with the UNC planets but not the best execution. Still ME1 made their important main quest stuff more linear and the optional stuff was land in the mako and explore. Now with their hardware they should be able to do what ME 1 did without the copy/pate and make the main quest stuff linear but big linear. To be honest, I'd rather the main quest not be linear. Bioware is better at linear than open world. You could see this going back to ME1 which had both. DAO was big linear, ME 2 was linear as was ME 3. Even with DAI the best stuff is linear.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 1, 2017 17:34:49 GMT
So here's another question then for those wanting a return to linear corridor levels: can a game like that survive and excel in a world with great open-world games such as HZD, TW3, and FO4? Will the majority of new gamers who haven't played the MET care about a corridor shooter RPG? Would a return to ME2-3 still levels only be attractive to die-hard fans of the Original Trilogy?
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Post by Ajax on Apr 1, 2017 17:51:43 GMT
A mix of the two is the best option. Too much of one or the other just makes things boring. I'd say "mix of different kinds of open worlds". Not mix of open worlds and corridors. Imo we didn't need 4 big open planets (Eos, Kadara, Voeld, Elaaden), especially when they were filled with repetitive and dreary side content. Havarl and H-047c worked perfectly because they broke the monotony of driving around and scanning shit. I say next time give us one giant Eos-type planet, one smaller one and then several environments like Havarl and H-047c that are completely different, with different tasks and ways of playing.
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Post by zaefkol on Apr 1, 2017 18:05:37 GMT
More Havarl. Less Eos.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2017 18:38:18 GMT
What good is exploration?
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 1, 2017 18:43:14 GMT
What good is exploration? What is love? Exploration is good for those who...want to explore. It allows people to discover things about a new galaxy, new species, etc without having exposition shoved down their throat. It allows for immersion, a feeling of being in the world instead of just in a building with hallways. It allows for curiosity, for levity, for cruising around with your bros and deciding where you want to go and what you want to do next. It's freedom.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 1, 2017 18:45:17 GMT
I don't know why some people insist that corridor shooters are the only kind of shooters in existence. In fact, now that Andromeda has an expanded movement system, I don't see why people are even considering corridors as an option. Mass Effect may finally be able to match the possibility spaces of a sandbox shooter like Halo or a stealth shooter like Deus Ex: HR. Incidentally, corridors are about as criticized in shooter circles as they are here. Of course, I say that, but many games still pale in comparison to the expert design of Dead Space's corridors. Still, linearity is a tool, not a curse. That it's still ignorantly treated with disdain is a shame. So here's another question then for those wanting a return to linear corridor levels: can a game like that survive and excel in a world with great open-world games such as HZD, TW3, and FO4? Will the majority of new gamers who haven't played the MET care about a corridor shooter RPG? Would a return to ME2-3 still levels only be attractive to die-hard fans of the Original Trilogy? I assume you're using this as an argument for Mass Effect staying as an open world game, but given that BioWare has failed twice to deliver a competent open world game, it only proves the opposite. Something about BioWare's design philosophy or development practices is incompatible with open worlds, and they're getting left in the dust by these other developers. You also don't seem to understand demographics. You do realize that there's an audience for linear shooters, right? And I'm not even suggesting that Mass Effect turn into Halo. Mass Effect 2 was a smash hit and solid game. It left plenty of room for perfection, but open world isn't it. Hell, it's practically the antithesis. There's a middle ground here that many seem to willfully ignore. Linearity just means going from point A to point B no matter what, and if you hadn't noticed, that's still what Mass Effect is, just with a number of diversions (as it's always been). What happens between A and B is down to design. I'd take a smaller overworld if it meant the quests had more freedom within them, wouldn't you? Open world isn't the logical conclusion of game design. It's a single design practice that, in my estimation, requires far too many compromises to even be worth it for most game developers, BioWare especially. There's no need to create this false dichotomy, where we just have to accept the compromises of open world games so we can avoid the dreaded "corridor shooter." BioWare could just make a solid game for a change, one which plays to their strengths.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 1, 2017 18:49:31 GMT
MEA. Perfected the already good open world of inquisition by learning lessons from Witcher 3 and even their own Dragon Age Origins. As a result most of the content has been interesting and engaging.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 1, 2017 18:54:00 GMT
I don't know why some people insist that corridor shooters are the only kind of shooters in existence. In fact, now that Andromeda has an expanded movement system, I don't see why people are even considering corridors as an option. Mass Effect may finally be able to match the possibility spaces of a sandbox shooter like Halo or a stealth shooter like Deus Ex: HR. Incidentally, corridors are about as criticized in shooter circles as they are here. Of course, I say that, but many games still pale in comparison to the expert design of Dead Space's corridors. Still, linearity is a tool, not a curse. That it's still ignorantly treated with disdain is a shame. So here's another question then for those wanting a return to linear corridor levels: can a game like that survive and excel in a world with great open-world games such as HZD, TW3, and FO4? Will the majority of new gamers who haven't played the MET care about a corridor shooter RPG? Would a return to ME2-3 still levels only be attractive to die-hard fans of the Original Trilogy? I assume you're using this as an argument for Mass Effect staying as an open world game, but given that BioWare has failed twice to deliver a competent open world game, it only proves the opposite. Something about BioWare's design philosophy or development practices is incompatible with open worlds, and they're getting left in the dust by these other developers. You also don't seem to understand demographics. You do realize that there's an audience for linear shooters, right? And I'm not even suggesting that Mass Effect turn into Halo. Mass Effect 2 was a smash hit and solid game. It left plenty of room for perfection, but open world isn't it. Hell, it's practically the antithesis. There's a middle ground here that many seem to willfully ignore. Linearity just means going from point A to point B no matter what, and if you hadn't noticed, that's still what Mass Effect is, just with a number of diversions (as it's always been). What happens between A and B is down to design. I'd take a smaller overworld if it meant the quests had more freedom within them, wouldn't you? Open world isn't the logical conclusion of game design. It's a single design practice that, in my estimation, requires far too many compromises to even be worth it for most game developers, BioWare especially. There's no need to create this false dichotomy, where we just have to accept the compromises of open world games so we can avoid the dreaded "corridor shooter." BioWare could just make a solid game for a change, one which plays to their strengths. Oh, I'm not using it as an argument for open-world. It's simply a question based on what I had seen other people posting, and I was just looking for people's opinions on it. And I do understand demographics and that there is a large audience for linear shooters. There's a large audience for a lot of different types of games: horror, FPS, MOBA, etc. Would people go for a linear-shooter Mass Effect now? Maybe! I suppose it depends on the quality of the game, and the type of game Bioware wants to make. But for me it seems they want to do RPG, and open-world(ish) RPG at that. Are there any linear-shooter RPG's currently coming out? Is Gears of War considered linear-shooter?
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Post by krazyguy on Apr 1, 2017 18:55:05 GMT
I would like open worlds to continue like this for the next MEA but ONLY side planets. I want the next game to be exactly like how they did it with mass effect 1, you have main story worlds, like noveria and feros where you do main story missions and you have side story planets with side content. Main story content shouldn't touch or mingle with side missions so people can either do side content for addition story or they can touch main content and just main content, never gotta touch the other stuff, this makes it less overwhelming. I lot of people are overwhelmed by the content, even if you can just do main missions, you have tasks all over the place, it just feels "let's get this over with" feeling.
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Post by Nocturnis on Apr 1, 2017 19:03:20 GMT
This is Bioware's second attempt at an open world game like this and it's already considerably less fetchy than the most recent Bethesda titles. If you ask me, they're killing it. The newest Dragon Age and Mass Effect sequels have an arguably better story than their predecessors, with the addition of the open world.
I don't get why people are saying either were overly fetchy. DAI's areas all had individual story lines that contributed to the main story, as well as a few stand alone quests that were fairly interesting in their own right. Most of the side quests in MEA seemed to contribute to bringing order to the Nexus and making the galaxy more liveable as a whole, which really added to the games narrative.
I get that there were still more than a few fetch quests in both game, but these games were pretty damn good for first attempts at open world.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 1, 2017 19:45:42 GMT
I would like open worlds to continue like this for the next MEA but ONLY side planets. I want the next game to be exactly like how they did it with mass effect 1, you have main story worlds, like noveria and feros where you do main story missions and you have side story planets with side content. Main story content shouldn't touch or mingle with side missions so people can either do side content for addition story or they can touch main content and just main content, never gotta touch the other stuff, this makes it less overwhelming. I lot of people are overwhelmed by the content, even if you can just do main missions, you have tasks all over the place, it just feels "let's get this over with" feeling. That could be a very interesting way to do it. That's make all the open-world stuff fully optional, so people wanting a linear story would be able to ignore the side stuff. What about loyalty/companion quests? Unique areas like Liam's could be very fun. That's why I liked Jack's loyalty mission so much. It was totally unique.
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Post by kingmandu on Apr 1, 2017 19:56:29 GMT
This is Bioware's second attempt at an open world game like this and it's already considerably less fetchy than the most recent Bethesda titles. If you ask me, they're killing it. The newest Dragon Age and Mass Effect sequels have an arguably better story than their predecessors, with the addition of the open world. I don't get why people are saying either were overly fetchy. DAI's areas all had individual story lines that contributed to the main story, as well as a few stand alone quests that were fairly interesting in their own right. Most of the side quests in MEA seemed to contribute to bringing order to the Nexus and making the galaxy more liveable as a whole, which really added to the games narrative. I get that there were still more than a few fetch quests in both game, but these games were pretty damn good for first attempts at open world. There are no open world games that don't have fetch quests. It's just the nature of the beast. I'd prefer if people stopped complaining about "fetch" quests when they're clearly not invested in the world or the subject matter. Of course you're not going to love the single conversations, the emails and datapad notes but a lot of us do and they do serve a purpose in the game. I completely agree with your post. There's tons of flavor to nearly all the tasks and quests in Andromeda that help build the world and the narrative. A lot of the reviews whined about these when it really comes down to the flavor not being to their liking. It's like if I play Zelda and say that game sucks because the art style is garbage when it really comes down to the game just not fitting my tastes. Sure, I'd love an open world filled with the quality of the Loyalty missions but that's pretty much impossible for Bioware to do if they want the game to come out in a reasonable time and not grossly overbudget. Before anyone says, and I love this game, "b-but The Witcher 3 did that!" No. CDPR has GOG as an additional revenue stream, has received financial support from the Polish government I believe, they aren't beholden to a massive publisher like EA, they didn't have to develop a full multiplayer portion of the game, and they work on Polish salaries not NA game developer salaries.
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Post by ilsen on Apr 1, 2017 20:03:33 GMT
This is Bioware's second attempt at an open world game like this and it's already considerably less fetchy than the most recent Bethesda titles. If you ask me, they're killing it. The newest Dragon Age and Mass Effect sequels have an arguably better story than their predecessors, with the addition of the open world. I don't get why people are saying either were overly fetchy. DAI's areas all had individual story lines that contributed to the main story, as well as a few stand alone quests that were fairly interesting in their own right. Most of the side quests in MEA seemed to contribute to bringing order to the Nexus and making the galaxy more liveable as a whole, which really added to the games narrative. I get that there were still more than a few fetch quests in both game, but these games were pretty damn good for first attempts at open world. +1 The DAI and MEA quests are totally fine. I like scouring wide open areas and finding things. I like completionist options that compel me to look at everything even though it's not necessary to the story. If you don't like them, then just skip them. It's win-win. I don't at all get why some people want games that are attached to rails, where the plot pushes you along a narrow corridor, but everyone is entitled to a preference, I guess. I'm comforted that the polls demonstrate that they aren't the majority, even on this highly negative forum. I'm new to the MEA series, but I think they did an even better job with the areas than in DAI, and DAI is one of my favorite games. Of the things to complain about in MEA, this "open-world" aspect that we are talking about is definitely not one of them.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 1, 2017 20:20:54 GMT
I don't know why some people insist that corridor shooters are the only kind of shooters in existence. In fact, now that Andromeda has an expanded movement system, I don't see why people are even considering corridors as an option. Mass Effect may finally be able to match the possibility spaces of a sandbox shooter like Halo or a stealth shooter like Deus Ex: HR. Incidentally, corridors are about as criticized in shooter circles as they are here. Of course, I say that, but many games still pale in comparison to the expert design of Dead Space's corridors. Still, linearity is a tool, not a curse. That it's still ignorantly treated with disdain is a shame. I assume you're using this as an argument for Mass Effect staying as an open world game, but given that BioWare has failed twice to deliver a competent open world game, it only proves the opposite. Something about BioWare's design philosophy or development practices is incompatible with open worlds, and they're getting left in the dust by these other developers. You also don't seem to understand demographics. You do realize that there's an audience for linear shooters, right? And I'm not even suggesting that Mass Effect turn into Halo. Mass Effect 2 was a smash hit and solid game. It left plenty of room for perfection, but open world isn't it. Hell, it's practically the antithesis. There's a middle ground here that many seem to willfully ignore. Linearity just means going from point A to point B no matter what, and if you hadn't noticed, that's still what Mass Effect is, just with a number of diversions (as it's always been). What happens between A and B is down to design. I'd take a smaller overworld if it meant the quests had more freedom within them, wouldn't you? Open world isn't the logical conclusion of game design. It's a single design practice that, in my estimation, requires far too many compromises to even be worth it for most game developers, BioWare especially. There's no need to create this false dichotomy, where we just have to accept the compromises of open world games so we can avoid the dreaded "corridor shooter." BioWare could just make a solid game for a change, one which plays to their strengths. Oh, I'm not using it as an argument for open-world. It's simply a question based on what I had seen other people posting, and I was just looking for people's opinions on it. And I do understand demographics and that there is a large audience for linear shooters. There's a large audience for a lot of different types of games: horror, FPS, MOBA, etc. Would people go for a linear-shooter Mass Effect now? Maybe! I suppose it depends on the quality of the game, and the type of game Bioware wants to make. But for me it seems they want to do RPG, and open-world(ish) RPG at that. Are there any linear-shooter RPG's currently coming out? Is Gears of War considered linear-shooter? I don't know why you say maybe. I'm pretty sure Mass Effect 2 and 3 sold well, so it's not like the structure is unproven. Had BioWare just made Andromeda's mobility improvements and largely maintained the old structure, I'm confident that consumers would find it just as appealing. No one balks at some quality linear shooting, and as I said, open world isn't the logical conclusion of game design. Open world environments were only a heavy expectation imposed by a certain faction of the fanbase. Prey is a shooter RPG along with the upcoming Systemshock remake. They're not exactly linear though, but that's essentially my point. Those two games are set almost exclusively within corridors, but that doesn't mean progression needs to be perfectly linear. Because those two games are set within smaller environments, the developers can focus their efforts on designing those environments to specifically encourage player freedom as well as the smaller details often lost to big landscapes. Gears of War is most certainly a linear shooter. In fact, it's one of the most linear high profile shooters around along with Call of Duty. ME2 and 3 aped its constricted design in order to provide a better set of core mechanics at the cost of some freedoms. However, Gears of War isn't the only way to construct linear levels. Had BioWare cut and distributed the freedom of Andromeda's hubs among its more linear missions, they could have achieved something like a hub-world Halo where smaller hubs lead to linear, but sandbox-style missions.
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Post by joglee on Apr 1, 2017 20:29:01 GMT
The pacing on side quests is what screwed with me badly, I am tired as hell of open worlds that are big for the sake of being big (Like this one) I want more packed with stuff to do that doesn't involve so much fetch and get and activate, I want unique throw ins liek HZD has. What? Look I love HZD, really one of my top games. But to say those side quests are unique is a joke. They are practically fetch, gather, kill quests, and the story behind them aren't nearly as enjoyable as ME:A. However this does not tarnish my opinion that HZD is one of myfavorite games.
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Post by Cypher on Apr 1, 2017 20:37:03 GMT
They can do open world, they just need to populate it with more things. More structures, prefab procredurally generated ones or static, handcrafted ones. They need more enemy spawns to occupy those structures, and they need less fetch quests, or they need to combine fetch quests with something else.
Have a fetch quest wave defense, toss out some assassination stuff, and so on. Take the ME3/MEA multiplayer tasks and take some non-story activities from the GTA/Saints Row franchises and adapt them to Mass Effect as necessary. If I have to go from point A to points G, H, and C, give me someone to rescue, kidnap, or whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 22:33:20 GMT
To be honest, I'd rather the main quest not be linear. Bioware is better at linear than open world. You could see this going back to ME1 which had both. DAO was big linear, ME 2 was linear as was ME 3. Even with DAI the best stuff is linear. I'm trying to figure out how DAO was linear. I think the structure of DAO and ME1 were very similar. After going through some opening segments (for DAO it ended when you arrived at Lothering and for ME1 it ended when you were made a Spectre and the CO of the Normandy) you had 3-4 main story missions assigned and were free to do as you wished until you'd completed them. Once you'd finished those main missions, you were funneled back into a sequence of events that comprised the finale. When I can approach most of the main story content in whatever order I please, can return to those hubs later if I choose, etc. - to me, that isn't really linear.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2017 22:35:14 GMT
What good is exploration? What is love? Exploration is good for those who...want to explore. It allows people to discover things about a new galaxy, new species, etc without having exposition shoved down their throat. It allows for immersion, a feeling of being in the world instead of just in a building with hallways. It allows for curiosity, for levity, for cruising around with your bros and deciding where you want to go and what you want to do next. It's freedom. I don't follow the italed part. You discover things the same way however your PC gets to that position. As for freedom, freedom for the PC is incompatible with a lot of narratives. Most heroes don't have that kind of freedom, because there's something important that has to be done right now. ME1 was a mess because it bolted an exploration layer on top of a story about a character who had no business exploring. It's yet another CRPG tradition which makes role-playing worse. Really, we should rename the genre.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 1, 2017 22:38:00 GMT
Andromeda's open world isn't the issue. It's the fact that so many of these planets have the same enemies, same sorts of pre-fab cookie-cutter buildings, & a bunch of ridiculous fetch quests on them. If the worlds were interesting, had unique things you could see and interact with, and actual, meaningful quests, then I don't think people would have any issue with these planets. Side quests in MEA are far from being fetch quests that can be possible in a game with this scale Disagree. This is the worst fetch quest bloat I've ever seen. It's so bad that they've actually separated a part of the journal and called it boring chores tasks and dumped them all in there for you.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 1, 2017 22:42:26 GMT
So here's another question then for those wanting a return to linear corridor levels: can a game like that survive and excel in a world with great open-world games such as HZD, TW3, and FO4? Will the majority of new gamers who haven't played the MET care about a corridor shooter RPG? Would a return to ME2-3 still levels only be attractive to die-hard fans of the Original Trilogy? ME2 and ME3 were strong games for when they released. It's just my opinion but doing a very linear experience again today may have good production value, but would be difficult to keep it fresh and fun. MEA's customization system and freedom/experimentation with powers, weapons, augmentations wouldn't work well with a linear game because you're limited to the venue, enemies, and situation of the current place in story.
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