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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 12:57:21 GMT
Maybe Uncharted 4 approach can work really well, it had large areas but eventually they were like corridors
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 2, 2017 12:57:25 GMT
Andromeda's open world isn't the issue. It's the fact that so many of these planets have the same enemies, same sorts of pre-fab cookie-cutter buildings, & a bunch of ridiculous fetch quests on them. If the worlds were interesting, had unique things you could see and interact with, and actual, meaningful quests, then I don't think people would have any issue with these planets. Disagree. This is the worst fetch quest bloat I've ever seen. It's so bad that they've actually separated a part of the journal and called it boring chores tasks and dumped them all in there for you. Except for the scanning shit parts they weren't fetch quests, or your definition of fetch quest is different than mine. I mean the didn't make you go and find 10 fiend horn or anything right? 20 plants 20 rocks 20 minerals 20 enemy types This many data pads That many pieces of salvage However many this This many that Of course they made you go and find x number of this or that. Have you never peaked at your journal...?
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 2, 2017 13:24:38 GMT
To be fair the fetch quests were you had to get 10/10 plants were scattered across worlds and in specific spots that usually involved some kind of a enemy encounter or brought you across another side story. It wasnt just "go out and pick up 10 items of iridium."
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Post by Frost on Apr 2, 2017 13:51:06 GMT
I voted for going back to the style of the previous Mass Effect games. This style works well for Bioware's character- and story-driven games. Making the side quests better would be good too (and there was already a big improvement from DA:I), but it seems like it is probably too expensive to do them really well in an open world game, or they would have done this already. I am also not fond of driving around in the Nomad.
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Post by Addictress on Apr 2, 2017 14:00:01 GMT
I'm replaying Inquisition.
You know what SAVED the game for me? The Descent and Trespasser DLCs.
Seriously, the difference is staggering. Descent and Trespasser have gorgeous environments, iconic soundtracks, and truly emotionally engaging scenes. I FEEL those questlines.
And guess what? I was looking at the Descent map, and it's actually corridor. Descent and Trespasser are structured more like corridors than the main game. But they're not whack-a-mole, or rote, or "narrow." I feel excited to unlock each new area within those corridors, and the battles and enemies are even more challenging and I feel EVEN MORE REWARDED when I beat them.
I love open-world stuff but Bioware has always been about the beautiful combination of story and staged levels which combine into spectacle.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 2, 2017 15:04:07 GMT
Given current AAA industry trends especially with regards to RPG, making a smaller, more linear game is actually a rare and refreshing treat. Even ignoring that though, linear games are almost universally more unique than open world games. That open world is even a genre should prove that. I could rattle off any number of linear games that have nothing in common but their linearity (and other superficial attributes), but AAA open world games all seem to be cut from the same cloth. You might be shooting in one game and slashing in another, but the same progression systems, quest structures, and encounter design are all still present and often not differentiated very well from one game to another. Smaller and/or linear games get to be more bespoke, not just in their visual production, which gets to be more intricate, but their mechanical identity. Well I would say to counter that familiarity, Mass Effect Andromeda does a great job at breaking away from the typical open world mold. The main thing it has in common with other open world games is its fetch quests. Mass Effect Andromeda does a good job at giving each open world map it's own story/ies and blending a good deal of linear levels. I think the only real issue with the game is the lack of diverse things to do as filler while out in the open world and the lack of polish Scanning, crafting, strike missions, outposts, resource collection, loot grubbing, base upgrading, etc.. That seems like the mold exactly, and those are just the superficial traits. Planet viability is just a reskinned areal liberation mechanic and saving linear missions for important quest chains is an annoyingly common practice. If you're smart enough to realize that linear missions are where your game shines, why spend your time and money on mechanics that actively detract from them? Most open world games, The Witcher 3 and Andromeda included, are decidedly worse when you just start tooling around the world. They're not Just Cause games where the world is specifically designed to encourage player-driven mayhem and they aren't Bethesda games where the confluence of wonky, but serviceable AI, constant character progression, and a tightly packed world create the basis for emergent storytelling. Even if you dislike those games in general, it's hard to deny the fact that their open world gameplay is markedly better than their constricted main quests because those games were clearly designed with the openness in mind. Andromeda on the other hand is just yet another game where the core mechanics never called for an open world. The designers just made a bunch of big places, retrofitted some standard open world mechanics, and hoped that would be good enough. The writing for these quests may be pretty good, but they aren't nearly good enough to help the game transcend its own rote formula.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 2, 2017 15:12:25 GMT
Well I would say to counter that familiarity, Mass Effect Andromeda does a great job at breaking away from the typical open world mold. The main thing it has in common with other open world games is its fetch quests. Mass Effect Andromeda does a good job at giving each open world map it's own story/ies and blending a good deal of linear levels. I think the only real issue with the game is the lack of diverse things to do as filler while out in the open world and the lack of polish Scanning, crafting, strike missions, outposts, resource collection, loot grubbing, base upgrading, etc.. That seems like the mold exactly, and those are just the superficial traits. Planet viability is just a reskinned areal liberation mechanic and saving linear missions for important quest chains is an annoyingly common practice. If you're smart enough to realize that linear missions are where your game shines, why spend your time and money on mechanics that actively detract from them? Most open world games, The Witcher 3 and Andromeda included, are decidedly worse when you just start tooling around the world. They're not Just Cause games where the world is specifically designed to encourage player-driven mayhem and they aren't Bethesda games where the confluence of wonky, but serviceable AI, constant character progression, and a tightly packed world create the basis for emergent storytelling. Even if you dislike those games in general, it's hard to deny the fact that their open world gameplay is markedly better than their constricted main quests because those games were clearly designed with the openness in mind. Andromeda on the other hand is just yet another game where the core mechanics never called for an open world. The designers just made a bunch of big places, retrofitted some standard open world mechanics, and hoped that would be good enough. The writing for these quests may be pretty good, but they aren't nearly good enough to help the game transcend its own rote formula. I would disagree. The best parts of Andromeda and Witcher 3 would be the freedom parts of just exploring and coming across random events or quests. And the open world aspects make sense in Mass Effect Andromeda rather than ME3 because we are a pathfinder with exploration, discovery, and problem solving being the major pillars in this game's design.
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Post by bekkael on Apr 2, 2017 15:31:43 GMT
No to open world, it just increases MMO-style busy quests that add nothing to the story and end up making me hate the experience. BioWare needs to stop trying to be Bethesda, that's not what they do well. A more focused narrative with a sprinkling of side quests is where they excel (like DAO, DA2, the MET, Jade Empire....).
I don't think they'll ever return to their old formula though, which makes me sad.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 2, 2017 15:55:39 GMT
Scanning, crafting, strike missions, outposts, resource collection, loot grubbing, base upgrading, etc.. That seems like the mold exactly, and those are just the superficial traits. Planet viability is just a reskinned areal liberation mechanic and saving linear missions for important quest chains is an annoyingly common practice. If you're smart enough to realize that linear missions are where your game shines, why spend your time and money on mechanics that actively detract from them? Most open world games, The Witcher 3 and Andromeda included, are decidedly worse when you just start tooling around the world. They're not Just Cause games where the world is specifically designed to encourage player-driven mayhem and they aren't Bethesda games where the confluence of wonky, but serviceable AI, constant character progression, and a tightly packed world create the basis for emergent storytelling. Even if you dislike those games in general, it's hard to deny the fact that their open world gameplay is markedly better than their constricted main quests because those games were clearly designed with the openness in mind. Andromeda on the other hand is just yet another game where the core mechanics never called for an open world. The designers just made a bunch of big places, retrofitted some standard open world mechanics, and hoped that would be good enough. The writing for these quests may be pretty good, but they aren't nearly good enough to help the game transcend its own rote formula. I would disagree. The best parts of Andromeda and Witcher 3 would be the freedom parts of just exploring and coming across random events or quests. And the open world aspects make sense in Mass Effect Andromeda rather than ME3 because we are a pathfinder with exploration, discovery, and problem solving being the major pillars in this game's design. So if we removed the quests and the narrative from these games entirely, you think they would still be fun? Just walking around a forest and happening upon a a group of monsters is quite possibly the least compelling part of The Witcher 3 along with it's unnecessary loot and crafting. I might boot up Just Cause 2 or Skyrim specifically with the intent to tool around and nothing else. However, if I jump into The Witcher without a quest, it all feels aimless and mundane. More importantly, exploration need not happen exclusively at large scale. The most rewarding exploration I've had in a game is quite possibly within Gone Home, where I could observe the intricacies of this lovingly crafted vignette of a 90s family. There's nothing inherent to an open world that improves upon exploration; it mainly just transfers the navigation of detail to the navigation of scale, and there's no reason that a more condensed hub couldn't portray the sense of scale about as well as an open world all while eschewing the more repetitive aspects of open world games.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 2, 2017 16:04:41 GMT
The best missions in the trilogy include virmire (linear corridor), battle of the citadel (linear corridor), the suicide mission (linear corridor), lotsb (linear corridor), genophage cure (linear corridor), and rannoch reaper (linear corridor). Optional open world content is fine, but the meat the good stuff where bioware thrives is with linear content. Same argument could be made with the DA series. The last 2 DLC in DAI were linear and they were some of DA's best content yet.
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 2, 2017 16:13:27 GMT
The best missions in the trilogy include virmire (linear corridor), battle of the citadel (linear corridor), the suicide mission (linear corridor), lotsb (linear corridor), genophage cure (linear corridor), and rannoch reaper (linear corridor). Optional open world content is fine, but the meat the good stuff where bioware thrives is with linear content. Same argument could be made with the DA series. The last 2 DLC in DAI were linear and they were some of DA's best content yet. The bar shootout in ME1 was pretty gangster.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 2, 2017 16:19:56 GMT
The best missions in the trilogy include virmire (linear corridor), battle of the citadel (linear corridor), the suicide mission (linear corridor), lotsb (linear corridor), genophage cure (linear corridor), and rannoch reaper (linear corridor). Optional open world content is fine, but the meat the good stuff where bioware thrives is with linear content. Same argument could be made with the DA series. The last 2 DLC in DAI were linear and they were some of DA's best content yet. The bar shootout in ME1 was pretty gangster. It was fun but it was nothing special.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 2, 2017 16:40:49 GMT
Scanning, crafting, strike missions, outposts, resource collection, loot grubbing, base upgrading, etc.. That seems like the mold exactly, and those are just the superficial traits. Planet viability is just a reskinned areal liberation mechanic and saving linear missions for important quest chains is an annoyingly common practice. If you're smart enough to realize that linear missions are where your game shines, why spend your time and money on mechanics that actively detract from them? Most open world games, The Witcher 3 and Andromeda included, are decidedly worse when you just start tooling around the world. They're not Just Cause games where the world is specifically designed to encourage player-driven mayhem and they aren't Bethesda games where the confluence of wonky, but serviceable AI, constant character progression, and a tightly packed world create the basis for emergent storytelling. Even if you dislike those games in general, it's hard to deny the fact that their open world gameplay is markedly better than their constricted main quests because those games were clearly designed with the openness in mind. Andromeda on the other hand is just yet another game where the core mechanics never called for an open world. The designers just made a bunch of big places, retrofitted some standard open world mechanics, and hoped that would be good enough. The writing for these quests may be pretty good, but they aren't nearly good enough to help the game transcend its own rote formula. I would disagree. The best parts of Andromeda and Witcher 3 would be the freedom parts of just exploring and coming across random events or quests. And the open world aspects make sense in Mass Effect Andromeda rather than ME3 because we are a pathfinder with exploration, discovery, and problem solving being the major pillars in this game's design. I would say going out and exploring in MEA is pretty fun, but it could be more interesting if, instead of just happening upon a Kett encampment and having to kill everyone there, there was a bit more going on. If you came across a Kett encampment and found they were holding hostages that you had to free, then freed them and they went back to the closest outpost, then when you went there you could talk to them and do different tasks for them (retrieve research they were working on, find their missing son, etc), and then follow clues to that, it would make the "random" encounters more meaningful. The side mission on Noveria in ME1 where you can go into the quarantine lab and create a cure for the sick scientists, something like that could be fun. You find experimented on MW people at a "random" Kett encounter, find they need help, and go through some of the research to create the cure. Maybe you have to go out and get a certain something from someone else, then do a little mini-game or thought-process to create the cure. A little off-topic, but in Dishonored 2 there is a door you have to go through to progress the story. It has a Jindosh Lock on it, and a riddle that comes with it. You have to solve, based on this riddle, the combination of the lock. Now you can power through it and solve it all on your own, or there are a few ways to find the combination in the level. I found it extremely satisfying to solve the riddle myself. I know some people don't enjoy that, and that's why there are several other ways to get the combination through standard gameplay, but some more stuff like that might help make some of the random encounters more meaningful if they had mysteries you had to solve. I had talked about this before the game came out, but in KOTOR, on Dantooine (I believe) there is a side mission where you solve a murder by picking up clues. It's kind of similar to the one with Liara and her assistant in ME2, except if you find all the clues it doesn't just give you the answer. You actually have to go though it and figure it out. I think stuff like that gives sidequests more life than just "Oh, more Kett. Better murderfy them!"
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Post by slimgrin on Apr 2, 2017 17:00:06 GMT
I think more planets and hubs to land on rather than the big 4 main maps would have been a better approach. So definitely bigger and more varied than ME3, but not the size of TW3 or Inquisition.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 2, 2017 17:01:45 GMT
@ kotoreffect3: Anyway, the bar shootout is part of the linear content, so it supports your point.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 2, 2017 17:49:05 GMT
@ kotoreffect3: Anyway, the bar shootout is part of the linear content, so it supports your point. True
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 2, 2017 17:57:34 GMT
@ kotoreffect3: Anyway, the bar shootout is part of the linear content, so it supports your point. Was it? I remember bar being circular. Anyways. it felt the most action movie like. How often do you play a bar shootout in video games
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Post by canuckgamer on Apr 2, 2017 19:57:18 GMT
I'd like to see a hybrid model for the next game.
I felt for the open worlds Kadara and Eledeen did it the best. The side missions mostly fit in with the "planetary narrative" in an effort to colonize them. Whether it was dealing with the Exiles/Krogan, the water mafia, etc. Loved driving around them. I would like to see one or two such worlds in a sequel.
Havarl was a good size, the missions felt logical and streamlined and everything flowed well. 3 or so worlds like this would be a good fit.
Exaltation Facility was a good corridor shooter style. I would like to see more of these on the main story and in side content. When I was traveling from world to world stumbling across one or two pirate bases, kett bases, etc would be cool. Having them this size or slightly smaller would make sense. Would contribute to the storyline, add some new spaces and make exploring the world more interesting for those not interested in the sights and science.
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Post by zeypher on Apr 2, 2017 20:10:58 GMT
I hate corridors, a space rpg should use the vastness of space and not fucking corridors with chest high walls.
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Post by snook on Apr 2, 2017 20:14:56 GMT
I like open world, definitely more than corridor shooters.
I think my favourite approach was The Witcher 2, though - hubs, not necessarily open world ones, but big enough that there was a lot of exploring to be done, while still being focused.
Havarl was pretty close to that.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 2, 2017 20:32:42 GMT
I hate corridors, a space rpg should use the vastness of space and not fucking corridors with chest high walls. Space media often portrays the oh so common dichotomy between the vastness of space and the claustrophobia of the machinery that we must use to navigate it. For a game about discovering a hostile frontier, limiting our traversal to oppressively restrictive environments could have worked quite well. @ kotoreffect3: Anyway, the bar shootout is part of the linear content, so it supports your point. Was it? I remember bar being circular. If one part of a level being circular elevates it above linearity, then only a few levels in the entirety of Mass Effect are linear. Just think about any time a level split into two paths because of a large obstruction. That's basically the same thing, and any half-decent shooter level is gonig to have parts like it. Frequently. Most shooters are military themed, but bar shootouts are still about as common as bars in shooters, e.g. Max Payne, Call of Juarez, GTA, etc.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 2, 2017 20:33:58 GMT
Sure. My point is that I don't want to see game narratives restricted to whatever will work with an open world. I look to other forms of media for tight narratives. I want games to allow me active participation in creating the narrative. But you're not just asking for active participation. You're also asking the world to leave your PC alone so he can do his own thing. Saren has to wait patiently at Ilos for Shepard to catch up.
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Post by henkiedepost on Apr 2, 2017 20:43:14 GMT
I like open world games but it is difficult to pull off and it takes up alot of resources which could otherwise be spent on quality and polish. Someone on the first page pointed out that a mixture between the two is probably best and I agree. The thing is that open world is nice and all but it is also very demanding. As an example, when a developer simply wants to add too much for the sake of having an open world, quest-content and cinematic experience will degrade because of it. I want full cinematic shots for every piece of dialogue like in ME2 and quests which actually have interesting stories and mechanics like The Witcher 3. Not the glitching zoom-in structure ME:A, DA:I and Fallout 4 have for alot of dialogue and the endless stream of fetch-quests you can find in MMO's, DA:I and ME:A. If having this means that Bioware has to cut down on the scope of the Open World then I'm still all for it. Focussing on quality content instead of cramming in as much as possible should be key for Bioware for future installments. What that means in practice is up to them because it depends on the capabilities they currently have. By judging what they've currently shown however, I think it's better for them to take things down a notch. So +1 for a balanced mixture.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 22:17:29 GMT
I look to other forms of media for tight narratives. I want games to allow me active participation in creating the narrative. But you're not just asking for active participation. You're also asking the world to leave your PC alone so he can do his own thing. Saren has to wait patiently at Ilos for Shepard to catch up. The only time that isn't true is when a game forces you into a particular quest immediately - such as ME2 did with the collector missions. In every other case, events wait until the PC shows up.
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Post by drjonesjnr on Apr 3, 2017 0:08:09 GMT
Definitely prefer how it was done in mass effect two.
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