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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 22:55:28 GMT
What is love? Exploration is good for those who...want to explore. It allows people to discover things about a new galaxy, new species, etc without having exposition shoved down their throat. It allows for immersion, a feeling of being in the world instead of just in a building with hallways. It allows for curiosity, for levity, for cruising around with your bros and deciding where you want to go and what you want to do next. It's freedom. I don't follow the italed part. You discover things the same way however your PC gets to that position. As for freedom, freedom for the PC is incompatible with a lot of narratives. Most heroes don't have that kind of freedom, because there's something important that has to be done right now. ME1 was a mess because it bolted an exploration layer on top of a story about a character who had no business exploring. It's yet another CRPG tradition which makes role-playing worse. Really, we should rename the genre. Main narratives that push urgency aren't great candidates for open world games. MEA is working fairly well, because there are multiple things going on that one could justify as... roughly equally important. Finding / fixing worlds to settle, tracking down the other arks, reaching out to the angarans, dealing with the kett, pursuing the mysteries of the remnants, dealing with the exiles - all important, none really pushed as urgent.
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admiralbonetopickmk2
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Post by admiralbonetopickmk2 on Apr 1, 2017 23:12:17 GMT
My main issue is that Bioware's interpretation of open world is just so cookie cutter, repetitive and dull. Devoid of any vision. This quantity over quality approach with rubbish fetch quests galore and streamlined MMO grindy game scructure & automated game mechanics etc is all very off putting. Sadly they seem wedded to this. So thats why i voted: Give me corridors with hubs... Hubs that are extremely atmospheric, colourful, complete with excellent world building, places where you can really feel that your right there, right in heart of some of those unknown planets and places in the far reaches of the galaxy, or inside an alien ship or a normal outpost. I want the universe to feel much more exspansive and alive, lived in etc and for the most part that is only brought about as a result of such a tighter focused game design. Something not found in ME:A... A game about large maps, open worlds and exploration etc and whilst that sounds good, the game it just doesnt do a good job at any of those things imo. I feel like thats the downside to open world, you have to make too many sacrifices & compromises in so many other aspects to make an open world possible. And too often the final results simply arent worth it.
But in contrast to that take Illium, Omega's streets, ME2's Citedel, the collector ship, the quarian floatilla, the geth dreadnought, Kasumi's Stolen Memory/Beckenstein, The Layer of the Shadowbroker, all the N7 anomaly missions etc... Not huge open worlds, but lot of ambience, variety, depth, context, meaningful details and still big enough to explore, fight there, run, cover, use powers, and decisions. Thats plenty big enough imo.
I mean these smaller maps or corridors can still be filled with content, not so big a level, but more than big enough where every detail matters, meaninguful decisions and the perfect ambience and environment. No open worlds but small to medium maps dripping in atmosphere, compact with lotsa detail and big enough that you can still explore. You really dont need the game to be a huge open world for it to be great.
I think the problem generally with huge open worlds is that more often than not they are just not interesting to begin with. The bigger something gets often the emptyier & directionless it becomes, the thinner the content is spread etc and as a result of this to combat it devs just put a ton of copy paste, shallow crap in to fill it out(as its easier, quicker and cheaper) etc.. But you loose the detail and intricacy in going for this huge scope. Its very, very rare that you can go big & open and retain the atmosphere and detail of a smaller dense map. Bioware dont have the talent to do that imo(if they did, honestly i wouldnt have a problem with open world). So continueing with these huge worlds is not a good thing for Mass Effect.
Ultimately for me something that is wide as ocean but deep as puddle is not enjoyable. And as they've failed for the last two games with this (bad)formula, if this is the best they can do regarding open world, then its time for Bioware to stop making games which dont play to their strengths. I think they just need to get off this open world bandwagon and get back to their bread & butter.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 1, 2017 23:20:54 GMT
So here's another question then for those wanting a return to linear corridor levels: can a game like that survive and excel in a world with great open-world games such as HZD, TW3, and FO4? Will the majority of new gamers who haven't played the MET care about a corridor shooter RPG? Would a return to ME2-3 still levels only be attractive to die-hard fans of the Original Trilogy? ME2 and ME3 were strong games for when they released. It's just my opinion but doing a very linear experience again today may have good production value, but would be difficult to keep it fresh and fun. Given current AAA industry trends especially with regards to RPG, making a smaller, more linear game is actually a rare and refreshing treat. Even ignoring that though, linear games are almost universally more unique than open world games. That open world is even a genre should prove that. I could rattle off any number of linear games that have nothing in common but their linearity (and other superficial attributes), but AAA open world games all seem to be cut from the same cloth. You might be shooting in one game and slashing in another, but the same progression systems, quest structures, and encounter design are all still present and often not differentiated very well from one game to another. Smaller and/or linear games get to be more bespoke, not just in their visual production, which gets to be more intricate, but their mechanical identity. Not necessarily. Yes, if we directly transplanted Andromeda's customization options directly into your average Call of Duty, the experience wouldn't mesh well, but that would be a dumb idea in the first place. A game like Halo though? The levels are already fairly expansive and enemy AI fairly accommodating, it might not be that hard to retrofit character progression into a game like that. Skill trees and customization also didn't stop relatively linear games like Dishonored or Deus Ex from being good. It all depends on the game's construction. Consider even more linear games: A blindingly simple upgrade system like the one present in DOOM 2016 can noticeably augment a player's playstyle despite the linearity. Hell, even the half-assed profile switching in Titanfall 2's campaign changed the way you approached the Titan levels.
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Post by auu on Apr 1, 2017 23:21:29 GMT
I prefer ME2 and 3. The action felt more...action-y? It was tense, and there was a fun rhythm to it.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Apr 1, 2017 23:58:43 GMT
I hate open world. Neither my wife or I can tell direction or drive so a side quest that would normally take 15 minutes takes us 3 hours because we're constantly getting lost.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 2, 2017 0:05:18 GMT
I don't follow the italed part. You discover things the same way however your PC gets to that position. As for freedom, freedom for the PC is incompatible with a lot of narratives. Most heroes don't have that kind of freedom, because there's something important that has to be done right now. ME1 was a mess because it bolted an exploration layer on top of a story about a character who had no business exploring. It's yet another CRPG tradition which makes role-playing worse. Really, we should rename the genre. Main narratives that push urgency aren't great candidates for open world games. MEA is working fairly well, because there are multiple things going on that one could justify as... roughly equally important. Finding / fixing worlds to settle, tracking down the other arks, reaching out to the angarans, dealing with the kett, pursuing the mysteries of the remnants, dealing with the exiles - all important, none really pushed as urgent. Sure. My point is that I don't want to see game narratives restricted to whatever will work with an open world.
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Post by Scottphoto on Apr 2, 2017 0:12:39 GMT
Although this is obviously a low amount of voters to confirm anything, the poll still shows how there is potentially a divide overall on the fanbase on whether or not Mass Effect should have open world or not. I wouldn't mind which direction they go, as long as the characters continue. However, I did enjoy the concept a lot of planet exploration in Andromeda, it is something I thought was very interesting on ME1 that needed another look. That said, removing the exploration did pay off to a more polish quality product overall on ME2 and ME3. Narrative and design speaking, the loyalty missions in Andromeda definitely end up standing out more too in the process. So maybe, if they get a more lower budget or time they should just go back to that style for the next one. I just feel the RPG feel of the game gets lost quite a bit with it.
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 2, 2017 0:27:17 GMT
Open world is great when there's marvelous visuals to occupy those vast spaces. Beautiful landscapes [Final Fantasy], architecture [Assassin's Creed], etc.
Bioware followed the trend to try being cool. Well they jumped on the bandwagon with the wrong game.
Helius is an underdeveloped sh1t hole with vast empty spaces of nothing. It's so bad they even included a car. Otherwise you'd die of boredom traveling from nothing to nothing.
Execution was sloppy. Navigation system is a mess.
I'd take an action packed corridor filled with intense gameplay over MEA's open world any day.
If Bioware wants to be cute, give us 2-3 different routes to get to the target. A good example are some segments of ME3's mission on the Geth ship. You could make the path vary horizontally and vertically. I want to take the ladder. Nah I prefer the corridor to the left or right.
Different linear routes to reach a target forces the player to be tactical. Each path is different which acts as constraints during combat. Being strategic to achieve your objectives is more entertaining than running around like a jackass just to find crap.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 2, 2017 0:27:43 GMT
I am fine with open worlds, the Witcher 3 is a very enjoyable open world to me but that's because it isn't full of crap quests, shallow content or raiders. Every area should matter either to the main story or an extensive side plot, the areas should only be as big as there are interesting quests to fill them and quests where you have to drive all over the map aren't what I mean. It's fun to explore and be rewarded with an interesting quests and maybe some cool items, what isn't fun is exploring and finding nothing but fetch quests and respawning enemies. So many quests in Inquisition had you find a note, that would lead you to another note at some other point on the map with a demon fight or something. It was so very dull, these quests should be rare if they exist at all. If you have an area with nothing but this crap, delete it. The plot should not be sacrificed for the world either, the Witcher three had a very lengthy main story and many decent side stories. This made travelling round the different regions enjoyable. Now I don' expect nearly as much content as is in TW3, I dunno if I'll ever complete all the quests that are in that game. Nor does the world need to be that big, but if we are doing open world games this is how they need to be in my opinion, like TW3.
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Post by ravenous on Apr 2, 2017 0:28:01 GMT
I chose the option of "yes just like how it was done in MEA" because as I mentioned a few times I think, is that I have zero problems with any kind of quest be it fetch quests etc, and my thought is this go open world for a game or don't bother for game developer's and that is seriously how I think I 100% prefer open world over any other kind of game second to RTS games of course
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 2, 2017 0:29:22 GMT
I wouldn't mind open world if they remake ME2 and 3. We went through many well designed cities in those games. There'd be beautiful visuals.
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Post by Zemgus on Apr 2, 2017 0:32:57 GMT
MEA's open world approach is just fine by me. Exploring new worlds, fighting and doing sidequests is the one area I think this game does really well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 1:16:44 GMT
Bioware games don't really "lend" themselves to open world. Their stories are all about high stakes drama and pacing is critical here.
For this they'll need to change their approach to storytelling and incorporate exploration as driving point of the plot.
I think they went too far here. Mass Effect I, ironically, had the best approach, at least in theory...player lands on a planet, but you're kept inside the mission zone. That is enough to immerse the player and give a sense of scale, while still retaining focus. ( ME I planets simply lacked anything meaningful on it)
For sequel, I'd like to see more planets explorable, crazy alien environments, but each playing out like your regular Star Trek epizode: anomaly detected from the bridge and you follow it from there.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 2, 2017 1:40:49 GMT
Leave it up to Rockstar, Ubisoft, Blizzard, and CD Projekt Red for amazing open world games while BioWare focuses on writing, animation, and quality control.
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 2, 2017 1:48:21 GMT
Bioware games don't really "lend" themselves to open world. Their stories are all about high stakes drama and pacing is critical here. For this they'll need to change their approach to storytelling and incorporate exploration as driving point of the plot. I think they went too far here. Mass Effect I, ironically, had the best approach, at least in theory...player lands on a planet, but you're kept inside the mission zone. That is enough to immerse the player and give a sense of scale, while still retaining focus. ( ME I planets simply lacked anything meaningful on it) For sequel, I'd like to see more planets explorable, crazy alien environments, but each playing out like your regular Star Trek epizode: anomaly detected from the bridge and you follow it from there. I also played ME1 and say they did a better job at open world than MEA despite being created with tech from 10 years ago. lulz
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Post by valkyriesr2 on Apr 2, 2017 2:15:02 GMT
While I'm not opposed to open world on principle, I just think it's worth noticing that Bioware does the corridor approach SO MUCH BETTER. Their stories are told so much better then, their pacing is spot on. Their focus should remain on telling stories, and how to do that well.
Containing things to corridors goes an extremely long way it seems to get things right.
And lets be honest here: No one plays Mass Effect for amazing gunplay or exploration. It's the stories, characters, lore and world building which are the real pull to the series here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 6:37:23 GMT
Andromeda's open world isn't the issue. It's the fact that so many of these planets have the same enemies, same sorts of pre-fab cookie-cutter buildings, & a bunch of ridiculous fetch quests on them. If the worlds were interesting, had unique things you could see and interact with, and actual, meaningful quests, then I don't think people would have any issue with these planets. Side quests in MEA are far from being fetch quests that can be possible in a game with this scale Disagree. This is the worst fetch quest bloat I've ever seen. It's so bad that they've actually separated a part of the journal and called it boring chores tasks and dumped them all in there for you. Except for the scanning shit parts they weren't fetch quests, or your definition of fetch quest is different than mine. I mean the didn't make you go and find 10 fiend horn or anything right?
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 2, 2017 6:45:11 GMT
Here is my take on it. TB and Jesse Cox were discussing this on their podcast, and it is not just a problem with this game. The problem is too much spoken dialogue. Having every NPC have a voice actor and mean something bogs down the game, and makes most lines sound a machine. I can agree to that. If they only let major quest lines have voice actors behind them, while leaving the additional quests as texts. I would be fine with that since I space bar through most of it anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 6:51:44 GMT
Main narratives that push urgency aren't great candidates for open world games. MEA is working fairly well, because there are multiple things going on that one could justify as... roughly equally important. Finding / fixing worlds to settle, tracking down the other arks, reaching out to the angarans, dealing with the kett, pursuing the mysteries of the remnants, dealing with the exiles - all important, none really pushed as urgent. Sure. My point is that I don't want to see game narratives restricted to whatever will work with an open world. I look to other forms of media for tight narratives. I want games to allow me active participation in creating the narrative.
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Post by unwanted on Apr 2, 2017 7:01:25 GMT
I have always thought going open world was a gigantic mistake, mainly because open world does not suit story telling. The same storytelling that Bioware built their name on, and judging by how DA:I and ME:A turned out...I was right. They must waste a good 50% of the development time creating pretty vistas instead of what is important to the game.
What does surprise me is how many other BW fans agree that open world is bad for the game, and a return to a suitable engine is necessary if Bioware want to go forward and regain their reputation.
Yep! I didn't realise how many others shared my wishes.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 2, 2017 7:04:48 GMT
I have always thought going open world was a gigantic mistake, mainly because open world does not suit story telling. The same storytelling that Bioware built their name on, and judging by how DA:I and ME:A turned out...I was right. What does surprise me is how many other BW fans agree that open world is bad for the game, and a return to a suitable engine is necessary if Bioware want to go forward and regain their reputation. Yep! I didn't realise how many others shared my wishes. It is actually tied with stay the same. Just make them less fetch...
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Post by Nonoru on Apr 2, 2017 10:35:51 GMT
Give me a more story-focused experience.
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Post by ClarkKent on Apr 2, 2017 11:37:55 GMT
What good is exploration? Exploration is good. The one thing that many developers miss is that having a big open world is not always conducive to good exploration. For example, I much preferred exploring and finding secrets in Life is Strange compared to say, Dragon Age Inquisition. Unless you're Rockstar or CD, little details, ie why many people want to explore, are always going to sacrificed when creating big open worlds.
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Post by adelthorne on Apr 2, 2017 12:06:46 GMT
Open world is not wrong. Its the time line on some quest thats need to be fixed. Same with missions that the paint as need to be done right now otherwise people dies, and then you go to nexus, buy some stuff, come back ages later finish the mission.
And in that sence ME has always been like that, you can wait with several quest as long as you want. So like Eos as an example, when you land for the first time, you should have some set goals, and when you discover other missions, their should be some obvios thinking cant do that now because of the radiation, or our prio missions is this, and then when you reach that a secondary goal pops out either from nexus, set up a colony etc...
I got the pregnat woman stealing before I even set foot on Elaaden, So when try to catch uo with her is not possible since the last colony I could set is on Elaaden, And since I have taken out all of her supply lines she will starve if I never settle a colony on Elaaden.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 2, 2017 12:54:56 GMT
ME2 and ME3 were strong games for when they released. It's just my opinion but doing a very linear experience again today may have good production value, but would be difficult to keep it fresh and fun. Given current AAA industry trends especially with regards to RPG, making a smaller, more linear game is actually a rare and refreshing treat. Even ignoring that though, linear games are almost universally more unique than open world games. That open world is even a genre should prove that. I could rattle off any number of linear games that have nothing in common but their linearity (and other superficial attributes), but AAA open world games all seem to be cut from the same cloth. You might be shooting in one game and slashing in another, but the same progression systems, quest structures, and encounter design are all still present and often not differentiated very well from one game to another. Smaller and/or linear games get to be more bespoke, not just in their visual production, which gets to be more intricate, but their mechanical identity. Not necessarily. Yes, if we directly transplanted Andromeda's customization options directly into your average Call of Duty, the experience wouldn't mesh well, but that would be a dumb idea in the first place. A game like Halo though? The levels are already fairly expansive and enemy AI fairly accommodating, it might not be that hard to retrofit character progression into a game like that. Skill trees and customization also didn't stop relatively linear games like Dishonored or Deus Ex from being good. It all depends on the game's construction. Consider even more linear games: A blindingly simple upgrade system like the one present in DOOM 2016 can noticeably augment a player's playstyle despite the linearity. Hell, even the half-assed profile switching in Titanfall 2's campaign changed the way you approached the Titan levels. Well I would say to counter that familiarity, Mass Effect Andromeda does a great job at breaking away from the typical open world mold. The main thing it has in common with other open world games is its fetch quests. Mass Effect Andromeda does a good job at giving each open world map it's own story/ies and blending a good deal of linear levels. I think the only real issue with the game is the lack of diverse things to do as filler while out in the open world and the lack of polish
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