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Post by readher on Dec 9, 2016 22:14:02 GMT
I'm playing games for 17 years and probably played all non-japanese RPGs and I found someone romsnceable in all of them. DA:I is the only one where it wasn't the case so they definitely did something wrong. Period. They certainly did something wrong..for you, and many others. It doesn't mean it's the first game in history we're a part of the fanbase didn't like the romance choices they had. There were many, many straight men disappointed with the choices of DA2 in Isabela and Merril, for similar reason as you posted. Yet you were fine with those. My point is that, as you said yourself, you didn't disliked both choices for their appearance. One was for had personality. Which might well happen in the next game as well, if both of all the romance choices you'll have are attractive but with personalies you won't like. That point is separate from the one about appearance. I never said I was fine with DA2 choices. I simply never played DA2 (as my list under profile indicates) so I'm not commenting on it. The thing with DA:I is that when you only give two options, making one very unconventional looking (manly jaw and short hair) and the second bland Disney-like personality is very bold and plainly bad move because it alienates a lot of people upfront. The chance of people liking such characters is very small, so why take the risk? I didn't claim that it was due to SJW or some agenda yet, because one game isn't enough to claim that, but I definitely consider it a possibility due to BW's actions and certain tendencies. And the point with Josephine is that if you go for a risky personality, the person should be made very attractive to balance out. It's a simple math - "well, she's very hot and her personality isn't ABSOLUTELY terrible, so I might as well go for her", as opposed to "well, she's barely attractive and her personality is bland, meh".
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Post by readher on Dec 9, 2016 20:35:42 GMT
Tell me then, what good does it make? Do you pride yourself in making experiance for others worse? "Haha, now those straight males won't have anyone attractive to romance, good riddance!". Is that your mentality? Tell me how making females unattractive makes your experiance better. Panda mentioned certain category of straight men, not everyone. And he didn't say that they're making women less attractive (or that they should make them less attractive), but that they're making them different from before. Which I don't think it's what they're doing anyway. Cassandra was actually one of the most popular fan choices for a companion and romance for the next DA game. Most of the criticism about her came from her face structure, not her hairs. You said yourself that your problem with Josephine was her personality (which is always a risk). So yeah, I don't think their approach is vastly different. I'm playing games for 17 years and probably played all non-japanese RPGs and I found someone romanceable (provided there was romance at all) in all of them. DA:I is the only one where it wasn't the case so they definitely did something wrong. Period. I even took lesbian options into consideration since I did such romances before. Still no dice (Sera... rotfl).
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Post by readher on Dec 9, 2016 20:24:45 GMT
Or devs could have been realizing that their games aren't played by little boys and single men from their mothers basement. The usual stereotypes that quite clearly aren't true with gaming especially nowadays. Diverse world, diverse games Tell me then, what good does it make? Do you pride yourself in making experiance for others worse? "Haha, now those straight males won't have anyone attractive to romance, good riddance!". Is that your mentality? Tell me how making females unattractive makes your experiance better. Straight males will want attractive females, lesbians will too and others won't romance them anyway, or at the very least they're not the target of such romances, so how does it affect them and why should target audiences suffer for it?
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Post by readher on Dec 9, 2016 10:23:45 GMT
Wouldn't it be nice if there was some way in game that you could change Ryder's appearance to be more like that? *gasp* That would be revolutionary! And would probably kill my framerate. My computer would most likely stay around 5-9 fps when they show her face. Meh, you can make women in Skyrim look amazing (and I don't mean any of that anime style, although the textures are really heavy on makeup) and it doesn't butcher framerate that much. Even though CE is an archaic engine by design. Frostbite would fare much better, but even a face like that wouldn't be saved from atrocious animations
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Post by readher on Dec 9, 2016 10:18:40 GMT
I'd like the companions on average to be average looking or a little more attractive than average. I don't want a crew of faces only a mother could love, nor a crew of spacebabes/hunks. It's not some conspiracy if they decided it's little silly everyone is 10/10 would bang. No one would have any problem if they had 7s, but they jumped from 10s to 2s.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 23:12:48 GMT
16 pages? Well done lads. Maybe if they've shown us more of the game since announcing it so long ago we'd have more interesting things to discuss, but alas I am forced to fight here
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 19:47:09 GMT
Hmm, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that my first reaction to the companion reveal for DAI was "wow, they ALL look terrible". I believe those were even artwork pictures that were supposed to look BETTER than in-game. Some characters I ended up finding quite hot (Dorian) after playing a while, especially in combination with their personality, but except for Cullen none of them were "conventionally beautiful" to me. I do understand where readher is coming from. I don't think his opinion is crazy at all. I know several people (among them women) who agree that the DAI characters were not all that attractive. Calling them" ugly" is ridiculous hyperbole but "not really hot" I agree on. Whether or not that is so very terrible is a different matter. But as a simple observation, it's not unfounded imo. So I actually do agree that the art design of the companions was... unusual. While I do not find Cassandra and Josie (or Sera for that matter) ugly, I could TOTALLY understand why men were less than happy. And when I first saw Peebee I actually thought "oh boy, here we go again". She and Sara are again NOT ugly but they are not Liara or ME1 Ashley. And I don't really understand why people get so defensive about it. Women like hot guys too. It's human nature! Whatever the hell is going on with character faces I call the DAI Effect from now on. Until I've seen all squadmates I cannot tell if there's a SJW agenda at work or if there's just something seriously wrong with Frostbite or the Bioware designers and animators. However, Morrigan looked GREAT, so it's not necessarily the claymation version of the trilogy's gorilla faces. That weird cartoon doll look is definitely a new engine problem, though. It's probably what makes the faces look this weird. But oddly, it does seem to affect female faces way more. MAYBE it has to do with female faces being smoother and so it shows more? Or the fact that hair looked so bad they went with terrible short styles to "hide" it? Or that abomination of an outfit that Josie wears? I have no idea, really. But if there is an agenda, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not about spiting men but about SOME female gamers feeling threatened. Or at least that could be what Bioware thinks. Cassandra is VERY popular with female players, is she not? I adore her too! I can totally see how DAI was not made for straight men. Which does NOT mean it was meant to punish them. Maybe Bioware felt like making a game for women and gay men for a change. Dorian's character flatters both gay men and straight women, perhaps again more so women. I too thought his flirty banter with female inquisitor was amazing. It was HOT. Nothing wrong with that once in a while. There is probably no vile intention behind it. Unless of course all the guys in MEA turn out to be super hot and all the women look more average girl next door. I still think EVERYONE but Morrigan and Cullen looked kind of weird and not particularly attractive in DAI. And yet the DAI companions ended up my favorite bunch in that franchise. Looks aren't everything. But wanting attractive love interests is nothing evil and should not be ridiculed by everyone imo. Women are just as shallow, they just get off on different things in addition to looks, see Solas. Morrigan definitely looked great. Leliana was fine as well. I'm not saying that all ME:A females will look ugly, but considering DA:I and what we have of ME:A right now I have every right to be skeptical until they prove me wrong. They're definitely capable of making attractive females in Frostbite considering those two examples. Whether they made an unfortunate decision in DA:I on the LIs' looks or it was a conscious one we won't know for now, but we will know once we get to see Cora. We already have Scott looking great, while we're yet to see any attractive female. And it's nice to have a woman on my side for once. Strange how guys never defend ugly male characters and been playing unrealistic muscular men since 90s without any problem, yet women feel the need to defend ugly female characters. I really don't know why anyone would want any character (and especially an LI) in a game to not be very pretty/handsome.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 19:11:46 GMT
The poll you posted indicates that respondents of Daily Mail do not like mid-length hair and complicated, dated hairstyle, because if you amalgamate the numbers, what it says is: 56% preferred long lose hair 28% preferred various short hair cuts 12% preferred mid length 4% preferred a complex hairstyle for long hair (beehive) The poll suggests that if your hair is straight, you are better off cutting it short to attract Daily Mail readers. Nowhere it specifies the sample size, gender, age, etc of respondents either. More like 12% preferred various short hair cuts. Chin-lenght isn't short hair. Pixie crop and bowl cut are the only short hairstyles. They give 12% total.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:40:30 GMT
You're using the same rhetoric you try to bash me for. Your argument is that because you consider Andromeda females attractive it automatically means that it's impossible for majority of males to find them ugly. The exception proves the rule as they say. If all the medias like movies, magazines "for men", commercials are not a valid argument for you, then I don't know what will be. In any case, here's a pool Daily Mail conducted: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1093196/Men-long-wavy-locks-sexiest-hair-short-hair-leaves-cold-says-poll.htmlI'm eagerly awaiting your data to prove me wrong. No, you are the one using some people's opinions about beauty to try and invalidate other people's opinions about beauty. Then you take it one step further and say that your opinion of what is pretty is definitive proof that Bioware is making girls "ugly" to fulfill some ideological agenda. All this poll does is prove your tastes aren't universal, thus you can't make a universal argument. LOL I'm officially done. This is beyond my tolerance of stupidity. It's not name calling when a person displays all the traits.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:31:54 GMT
Next thing you'll tell me is that statement "most men prefer women to have breasts" (as in have them at all, aka no any surigical removals for health reasons took place) is also not valid, because it's based on aesthetics. This is, of course, an inane example of your poor attempt to mis-characterize my position. A woman's breasts are a part of her body, to not have the body part goes far beyond aesthetics. You're not demonstrating a firm grasp of the meaning of the word "aesthetics" when you use this as an example. You're using the same rhetoric you try to bash me for. Your argument is that because you consider Andromeda females attractive it automatically means that it's impossible for majority of males to find them ugly. The exception proves the rule as they say. If all the medias like movies, magazines "for men", commercials are not a valid argument for you, then I don't know what will be. In any case, here's a poll Daily Mail conducted: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1093196/Men-long-wavy-locks-sexiest-hair-short-hair-leaves-cold-says-poll.htmlI'm eagerly awaiting your NON ANECDOTAL data to prove me wrong.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:22:47 GMT
God, I have a really hard time deducting whether you're acting like a retarad on purpose or not. You're seriously denying that there is universal beauty and disregard any arguments based on aesthetics. I disregard your personal opinion when you present it as a universal opinion, yes. Which is only logical, since your opinion is not universal. I also pointed out your arguments were anecdotal, which is a fact. Anecdotal evidence =/= fact. Show me one universal opinion then. I can guarantee you that for everything you'll tell me there will be at least one person who will disagree. Be it that Earth is round or that gravity exists. Does that mean I should assume Earth is not round, because it's not an universal opinion?
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:20:02 GMT
God, I have a really hard time deducting whether you're acting like a retarad on purpose or not. Misspells retard. Pure win. Nitpicking. Pure win. That will show me /s. Nevermind the fact that it was accident because I obviously know how to write retard correctly, would you like to switch our conversation language to Polish or Russian? I'm sure you'd do absolutely great at using non-native language. Glad you're still unable to provide solid counter-arguments by the way.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:12:59 GMT
It's not like games can go no short hair women cause men apparently like long-haired women better. That sounds quite weird. The female characters in the game don't exist for men's libido only. I'd argue that female LIs for straight males exist exactly for that. I'd like to see straight women getting a very fat man as a romance. It's not like they don't exist and it's not like all men exist for female's libido right? The backslash would be as strong as it's here, if not bigger. Especially if at the same time males got busty model as an LI (Cassandra/Cullen situation).
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:11:29 GMT
So you don't believe there are certain aesthetics that almost all men will find attractive, aka universal beauty? Lmao, how deluded one have to be to think that. Why do you think most actresses share certain traits in their looks? Because they appeal to men the most and it will make the movie sell better if an attractive female is playing in it. There will be men who find fat women attractive. Does that mean that majority do? No, it's a fact. It's not an anecdote but a damn fact. And you're portraying my argument as an anecdote because you can't provide a valid counterargument. I'm really baffled, I thought that after 13 pages of saying the same people would finally get the point, but then someone new comes and starts saying the same things I rebuked long ago with various arguments. I find it laughable that you think you're the spokesman for what is considered "universal beauty", yes. That is a very strong case for your delusion, not mine. All you're doing is taking what is your opinion about pretty women and trying to use that as some case against Bioware and an SJW agenda. Doesn't really work, since I consider the women in Andromeda (the ones I've seen) to be pretty. So, you obviously don't speak for me and all you cite for support of your argument is "wow a lot of guys agree with me!" So what? I see disagreement all the time about whether people are hawt or not. It's a dead end subject for building consensus. Now, if you want to make an argument about SJW agendas, merely look for ideology. There you can make a comparison to what current SJW arguments are and then see if Bioware is echoing any of those arguments. Much easier to prove in that regard instead of all this "she's ugly! SJW's! Dur Hur!" God, I have a really hard time deducting whether you're acting like a retarad on purpose or not. You're seriously denying that there is universal beauty and disregard any arguments based on aesthetics. Next thing you'll tell me is that statement "most men prefer women to have breasts" (as in have them at all, aka no any surigical removals for health reasons took place) is also not valid, because it's based on aesthetics. Wake up from your bubble and look at the world around you. When was the last time you've seen shampoo commercial showing short-haired woman? Or a hair spray commercial? There are certain looks that majority men will find attractive and what you're missing is that I don't assume majority's of men universal attractive female base, but that I assume mine based on said base. I know what most men find attractive and I deduct that I share their view, not the other way around.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 18:05:25 GMT
The female romances from DA:I were so out-of-the-box and conventionally unattractive to most straight guys I really, honestly do not know what they were thinking or how they thought they would be appealing or give off a WOW factor. "Would you look at that short hair and broad, masculine jaw line guys would smash 10/10" With Cullen and Dorian you could clearly see women and gays would be more attracted to them. Back then when there was a big fuss over gay characters in Mass Effect and people were crying even though it was entirely optional I would say they were whining over something that merely just gave other players more freedom. But with what's been coming out lately where the optional romances for straight guys are pretty unattractive I can see where people are coming from now. Exactly. We're not asking to make LIs for gays/straight women worse, which was kind of what was happening with the fuss over gay characters. We're asking to make female LIs on par with them. When you only include two romance options for majority of playerbase, making one absolutely conventionally unnattractive is absurd, especially when the second's romance is written for 10 year olds.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 17:49:39 GMT
I guess hundreds of comments and posts on various sites saying they're ugly aren't an argument either. If there wasn't any problem such thread wouldn't be started, neither would ones that arose when DA:I came out. Short haired women are what MINORITY of men find attractive, it's a damn fact. Go to any website that hosts some attractive females ranking and find me short haired female in top 10. And by short haired I don't mean chin-length, but actually short. There will be none, because it doesn't appeal to most men. Then why when there are only two female LIs for men did they make one short-haired, while making the other a bland character, with a Disney-style romance no less. The agenda is clear, whether you believe it or not. Especially when Cullen is a model-looking LI for females. That said DA:I was bad when it comes to characters overall. Lesbians were just as fucked as we were. It doesn't matter how many posts there are, if the argument is based on aesthetic preference it's not an objective argument. And you're still using anecdotal evidence, which is just as worthless as the last time you used it. Of course threads can be started for stupid arguments, opinions and preferences. Tt happens all the time. Neither are a basis for legitimacy in making a point. So you don't believe there are certain aesthetics that almost all men will find attractive, aka universal beauty? Lmao, how deluded one have to be to think that. Why do you think most actresses share certain traits in their looks? Because they appeal to men the most and it will make the movie sell better if an attractive female is playing in it. There will be men who find fat women attractive. Does that mean that majority do? No, it's a fact. It's not an anecdote but a damn fact. And you're portraying my argument as an anecdote because you can't provide a valid counterargument. I'm really baffled, I thought that after 13 pages of saying the same people would finally get the point, but then someone new comes and starts saying the same things I rebuked long ago with various arguments.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 17:38:10 GMT
I can guarantee you that not a single friend of mine would say either of the women in my previous post is attractive. I meet tens of attractive females every day, my preferences and demands aren't exorbitant. There wasn't a single game with romance where I didn't find someone attractive, and those games released as long ago as in early 2000s. DA:I is the only one and those two females from ME:A are continuing the trend of ugly females. Anecdotal evidence and your preferences aren't an argument. I guess hundreds of comments and posts on various sites saying they're ugly aren't an argument either. If there wasn't any problem such thread wouldn't be started, neither would ones that arose when DA:I came out. Short haired women are what MINORITY of men find attractive, it's a damn fact. Go to any website that hosts some attractive females ranking and find me short haired female in top 10. And by short haired I don't mean chin-length, but actually short. There will be none, because it doesn't appeal to most men. Then why when there are only two female LIs for men did they make one short-haired, while making the other a bland character, with a Disney-style romance no less. The agenda is clear, whether you believe it or not. Especially when Cullen is a model-looking LI for females. That said DA:I was bad when it comes to characters overall. Lesbians were just as fucked as we were.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 17:35:18 GMT
Whether Sara's default model is hot or not doesn't matter much at it's core, because we'll be able to change it. It does however provide an example of what we can expect from female faces. The argument that "she's average and customizable protagonist" would hold more value if Scott didn't look like a model in the cinematic reveal trailer. A disparity like the one we have here doesn't comfort people concerned with how females will look like at all, especially since the two female NPCs we've seen aren't attractive either. It was the same, arguably, in the trilogy though. Sheploo was better looking. They still made some attractive women. They shown a female turian. Can you tell me how they were supposed to make more attractive in terms of human appearance? Or should they haven't places a female turian companion? We got Garrus, Wrex, Mordin, Grunt and Javik in the trilogy. Anf again, Peebee, appearance wise, looks attractive, regardless of her personality. I'm talking about humans only. And while Sheploo was better looking than Femshep, we had a clear look at female characters and they were attractive. Ashley, Miranda, even Samantha for lesbians, while not a model, was definitely more attractive than anyone in DA:I and definitely more attractive than either of the NPCs I posted (you must've missed my edit, since your quote didn't have pictures, take a look at them).
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 17:31:33 GMT
I haven't seen any ugly females in Andromeda. What I have seen is some folks taking their aesthetic preferences and trying to apply it as some universal truth to make some "objective" argument about SJW prejudice against their white heterosexual male customer base. For those trying to make that argument my advice is stick to ideology, not aesthetics, as a base for your argument. I can guarantee you that not a single friend of mine would say either of the women in my previous post is attractive. I meet tens of attractive females every day, my preferences and demands aren't exorbitant. There wasn't a single game with romance where I didn't find someone attractive, and those games released as long ago as in early 2000s. DA:I is the only one and those two females from ME:A are continuing the trend of ugly females.
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readher
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 17:24:40 GMT
Whether Sara's default model is hot or not doesn't matter much at it's core, because we'll be able to change it. It does however provide an example of what we can expect from female faces. The argument that "she's average and customizable protagonist" would hold more value if Scott didn't look like a model in the cinematic reveal trailer. A disparity like the one we have here isnt' exactly comforting to people concerned with how females will look like at all, especially since the two female NPCs we've seen aren't attractive either.
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readher
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 16:57:28 GMT
True, but you might remember the "criticism" BW got over "dat ass"... much has changed at the company since then. Also: In the past, a company could get away with having "imperfect" character models, because of technical limitations, but in this generation, you gotta expect some raised eyebrows if you - apparently deliberately - toning down the beauty standards set by the entertainment industry. Bioware are a bit more "socially conscious" now in that they've gone out of their way to appeal to those who are more inclined to want plenty of gender and sexual diversity and more feminism. Not saying it's a bad/good thing at all it's just that they've broadened their target audience from the typical straight dude. More options are always a great thing, but I definitely do see why people (I.E. "the straight guy") are feeling gipped over the more recent female Bioware characters (and interestingly enough the men are still pretty conventionally attractive from DA:I and from what we've seen so far in ME:A). Cullen and Scott are straight up models (minus Cullen's scar). Meanwhile females are ugly or their beauty is very unconventional and will appeal only to a small minority of men. With so much speech of equality on their part, one would think they will bring more options to be on par with what straight men get and not do it at their cost.
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readher
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 16:50:00 GMT
True, but you might remember the "criticism" BW got over "dat ass"... much has changed at the company since then. Also: In the past, a company could get away with having "imperfect" character models, because of technical limitations, but in this generation, you gotta expect some raised eyebrows if you - apparently deliberately - toning down the beauty standards set by the entertainment industry. The fact is still that people are upset because the female are not up to their standard. There is no reason that their demand are more important than any other. And it is still only ONE woman that we have seen that is "ugly" that we can't change. I almost want Cora to be "hideous" just so I can see every "true" straight male get a heartattack. And The Elder King mentioned me2, so leave it at that. Your "almost wish" is exactly why so many people are calling to boycott BW and their games and call their fans SJWs. Glad you're not doing anyyhing to change that. I'll say it again, the standard we demand is that the females are attractive at all. They don't have to be models, just don't make them all ugly and short haired. If a game released in 2003 could make attractive faces then one releasing 2017 should sure as hell be able to do it too. I see tens of women I consider attractive every fucking day, yet in whole DA:I and what we've seen so far in ME:A I didn't find one.
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readher
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 16:45:05 GMT
I wouldn't say they're flat out "ugly" or "hideous" (drama queen much?), but it's so blatantly obvious the women in recent Bioware games are being made to appear much more average/plain looking and less feminine and/or sexualized than a decade ago. They're definitely toning down the physical attractiveness to male players. The point is that there is still "attractive" and "sexualized" woman in Bioware. Miranda in ME2 is sure as hell not made to look plain. It is just that some people must jump the gun and yell: AGENDA!!!! The moment there is something that they don't agree with. Add this to the fact that we have only seen 2 human females so far (and one of them is customisable). And I never been disappointed by the female characters, (maybe I am not as much a baby as others ) so for me it is just ridiculous statements to say that they are catering to non-hetero males. No one says anything about ME2 or ME3. All the concern is based on DA:I and what we've seen so far of ME:A and the concern is valid. No one was saying that women in ME2 or ME3 were ugly. That changed immensly with DA:I and so far nothing is indicating that it will change in ME:A. If the company's previous game had a problem and all the footage we've seen so far indicates that it will be present in their newsest game as well, there's absolutely no reason why I should give them benefit of doubt. They have to prove me wrong by showing actually attractive females in their game.
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 16:11:18 GMT
I wouldn't say they're flat out "ugly" or "hideous" (drama queen much?), but it's so blatantly obvious the women in recent Bioware games are being made to appear much more average/plain looking and less feminine and/or sexualized than a decade ago. They're definitely toning down the physical attractiveness to male players. You know it's bad when Bastilla with her blocky face seems more attractive than females in a 2016 game.
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Posts: 203 Likes: 171
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Post by readher on Dec 8, 2016 14:48:48 GMT
I'm down with discussing the possibility but I don't see how it would look good or even work if it actually happened in the game unless there are MAJOR time jumps. I did like the blue babies talk in the trilogy. Something like that. But an actual wedding and such? No, thanks. What I'd like to see are companions who actually have a family (if the timeframe of the game allows it, I would assume most people who go to Andromeda are young and unattached). I liked that about Thane, although the dead wife part fo the romance was awkward and cliche. So I'd rather have non-romance squaddies who have spouses and kids. I would be ok with a single parent love interest if the other parent isn't dead but they just separated (read: no drama). And then the kid is just referenced once in a while. During Warsaw Uprising people married after knowing each other for a few hours. Considering circumstances marriage in ME:A wouldn't be anything strange. Anything more than talk about kids would be ridiculous though.
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