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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 27, 2017 14:43:25 GMT
Well you serf's argument against freedom is exactly the one Dorian uses in defence of slavery. People are better off as slaves of families like his own, who treat them well, than struggling away poverty stricken in some slum or alienage.
However, education has been the great leveller of society, helping people to raise their eyes above the daily grind. My great, great grandfather was an extremely poor farm worker, who struggled daily against starvation for himself and his family, and never learned to read or write. He never travelled more than a few miles from his birth village in his whole life. I know these things because he dictated his memoires to his grand-daughter who looked after him in his old age and was one of the first generation of those who benefitted from universal education. Her son and grandchildren went to university. Two hundred years on from his birth, I have been involved in educating others so they can reach their true potential in life and have visited many other places, moving away from the place of my birth. Two hundred years may seem like a great deal of time but not when you consider how many generations and centuries passed before him when his ancestors were likely no better off or literate than himself.
Someone has to provide the impetus for change. Dorian is fighting corruption with the aid of the Lucerni, which is a considerable step forward from it being just him and Maevaris standing alone against the rest. I just rather like the idea of him also honouring his former mentor and his friend Felix, who whilst a mage was always more gifted as a mathematician and viewed as little better than a Soporati by his grandfather, by continuing to champion the cause to which Alexius once devoted himself.
I must admit I'd be interested to see if his mother ever becomes more than some anecdote and stereotypical noble mother who shows little demonstrable affection for her children and leaves their care to the servants. He does mention visiting her during his time in Tevinter when talking to a friend or romance where he was gone for the entire 2 years, so clearly he tried to build bridges. I did wonder if now Halward is out of the way, his mother might actually be different in her attitude towards her son. Halward tried to maintain that Dorian was too much like him and whilst that probably does disservice to Dorian, may be that is how it seemed to his mother as well. He says that his parents hated each other's guts and his mother seemed to drown her sorrows in drink whilst Halward was alive but it would be a nice twist if with him gone, she showed a completely different side to her character rather than continuing to be portrayed as some cold, insensitive, ambitious woman with little real affection for her son.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 15:22:38 GMT
My serf's anecdote is not against freedom, it is to give an example of how the most idealistic and far from the common people movement can turn to much more radical solutions in an extremely short period of time, as writing, talking, educating and making small individual gestures is not enough. Those folks, they did draft a couple of constitutions, one for a republic, one for a costitutional monarchy... (some of which reused by the government some about 40 years later when slavery was finally abolished in Russia) but well, over time there was just no movement in the society, despite the best efforts.
so, yep, it culminated in the armed uprising in 1825-1826, which saw the whole bloom of the radicalized military aristocracy themselves stripped off all rank and reward, including all military honours, turned to serfdom, and sent off to Siberia. Wives who followed, followed under conditions that all children born will be serfs from birth. Five were supposed to be hanged, drawn and quartered, but tender sensibilities intervened, so just hanged. Three were double-hanged, b/c well, since death penalty was abolished in 18th century, they lost the art of building the structures. One of the man is credited with a comment that the change is demonstrably needed, as the governement is incapable of even properly hanging a man... anyways, I am drifting off into the old memories.
In this particular case, the turn from peaceful political pressure in the very, very high circles, and salon debates which is what occupying Dorian and Co to an armed struggle happened in 10 years. And yes, they were for the most part army officers, and fought in their teens and twenties, so that might have sped up the descisions, and yes, the stars aligned with Alexander the Ist death, but in Tevinter, a fair bit of Dorian's young friends might have seen action as well, as Venatori or against Qunari.
So, there are conditions there to want to deal with politics first, and provide universal education later as a perk of a new order.
Well, I can dream until they actually release it. It's easier for me to headcanon Dorian's adventures than anything romantic. I just really do not want to have any expectations and let the developers present it to me however they want to.
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Post by phoray on Jul 11, 2017 3:48:44 GMT
You know what I like? I like how sarcastic and cheerful Dorian is. So far, other than that scene with dad, he's been chipper. He pulls YOU out of your funk rather than laying on another layer of sad. Or a worry. At least, that's what I've gotten out of him so far. Still have Adamant and the rest of the game to do the romance with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 12:51:35 GMT
You know what I like? I like how sarcastic and cheerful Dorian is. So far, other than that scene with dad, he's been chipper. He pulls YOU out of your funk rather than laying on another layer of sad. Or a worry. At least, that's what I've gotten out of him so far. Still have Adamant and the rest of the game to do the romance with him. Agreed, plus he always manages to make a conversation topic interesting. Even the lore conversations always have a moral puzzle in them for the player to answer internally off the get go, and they are presented in an entertaining fashion. He's never dull.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 12, 2017 15:03:21 GMT
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but.....When Inquisitor is judging Alexius, I was hoping to see Dorian in the scene for him to see what punishment is handed to Alexius and maybe have a comment.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 12, 2017 15:40:57 GMT
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but.....When Inquisitor is judging Alexius, I was hoping to see Dorian in the scene for him to see what punishment is handed to Alexius and maybe have a comment. It's my headcanon that he's up on the balcony, watching. I also have my Inquisitor ask Dorian about Alexius before passing judgement, and the response, along with everything witnessed in the future, factors into the decision. I don't think he would have a comment in the moment. When you talk to him about Alexis after the mission -- "Have you seen Alexius yet? He's in the cells," -- he says he hasn't and isn't sure he wants to. His words after that make him sound conflicted. Alexius was a father figure for him, but this Alexius isn't the man he knew; he's changed. Dorian despises what he did, but that is all bound up with his care for the man himself, admiration for the man he once was, and also his care for Felix. While he does approve if you allow Alexius to do magical research, and disapproves of making him tranquil, he does still think he deserves some sort of punishment. It's all very complicated. I do wish it could be touched on further if you allow Alexius to live. It just seems like another open wound for Dorian, and something he needs to make peace with. In addition, the fact that they both had a loss in Felix is also meaningful. It seems like Felix was Dorian's closest friend before the Inquisitor came along.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 15:41:17 GMT
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but.....When Inquisitor is judging Alexius, I was hoping to see Dorian in the scene for him to see what punishment is handed to Alexius and maybe have a comment. I was expecting it as well, but instead his reaction comes when you talk to him afterwards. Fair enough, I suppose.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 12, 2017 19:00:27 GMT
I was watching Zorro yesterday (the Tyrone Power version) and I really wonder if he was the model for Dorian in much the same way that DG used Mae West as the inspiration for Maevaris. I've mentioned before how similar Dorian is in appearance, particularly when wearing that rakish mage hat/sombrero and riding a fiery steed, but there are also similarities in the character. In public Zorro has this air of being a bit of a dandy, constantly discussing the latest fashion, being witty and charming but behind the scenes he is the noble saviour, deadly and sincere in his desire to restore the province to what it once was and make the world a better place.
To some extent I feel Dorian is the same. He constantly critiques other people's appearance, is very concerned with maintaining his own, is witty and charming and people might think that is all there is to him but then you get to know the "man behind the mask" and discover the hidden depths to his character. When he gets back to Tevinter he continues to do the "right thing" and work for the restoration and redemption of Tevinter even though many people think fighting the corruption and decay in the system is a lost cause.
Just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 19:14:08 GMT
I was watching Zorro yesterday (the Tyrone Power version) and I really wonder if he was the model for Dorian in much the same way that DG used Mae West as the inspiration for Maevaris. I've mentioned before how similar Dorian is in appearance, particularly when wearing that rakish mage hat/sombrero and riding a fiery steed, but there are also similarities in the character. In public Zorro has this air of being a bit of a dandy, constantly discussing the latest fashion, being witty and charming but behind the scenes he is the noble saviour, deadly and sincere in his desire to restore the province to what it once was and make the world a better place. To some extent I feel Dorian is the same. He constantly critiques other people's appearance, is very concerned with maintaining his own, is witty and charming and people might think that is all there is to him but then you get to know the "man behind the mask" and discover the hidden depths to his character. When he gets back to Tevinter he continues to do the "right thing" and work for the restoration and redemption of Tevinter even though many people think fighting the corruption and decay in the system is a lost cause. Just a thought. Ah, I've never watched Zorro, but I don't think Dorian has a facade and a hidden side. I always thought he organically mixes everything in one package. There was that old line of poetry that read something like "you can be a man of value, and still care about your manicure" to rebuke someone criticizing a guy who was taking care of his nails as shallow. He does not try to hide his principles, his allegiance with the Inquisitor or his activity to better Tevinter.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2017 20:56:12 GMT
That may be true when he is on good terms with the Inquisitor but how many people outside your inner circle see the "real" Dorian? Even among the inner circle there continues to be suspicion during the main game. Talk to Cassandra and she will voice doubts about him. Then there is Giselle. She only gets to see the caustic wit. If the Inquisitor is on bad terms with him and punches him, then Dorian leaves and I doubt the Blacksmith ever has to admit he was wrong to spit on him when they first met. It is only when we get to Trespasser that people start to admit they got it wrong about him.
There is also the different side you see to Dorian if you do Champions of the Just after visiting Redcliffe. Your initial impression of him is this cocky, confident, stylish mage, who mocks your ignorance of the workings of your mark. Then the next time you see him, he is on his knees having run ahead of the army to warn you, even though he knew you had rejected his help. He has lost everything (I had to craft some robes for him when we got to Skyhold). He is brave enough to stand up to Cullen and then helps the wounded Rodderick, comforting him in his dying moments, when the Chantry stalwarts are too busy arguing among themselves. That is a complete contrast from the impression created in Redcliffe. That is more what encouraged me to make the Zorro comparison.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 14, 2017 2:55:41 GMT
That may be true when he is on good terms with the Inquisitor but how many people outside your inner circle see the "real" Dorian? Even among the inner circle there continues to be suspicion during the main game. Talk to Cassandra and she will voice doubts about him. Then there is Giselle. She only gets to see the caustic wit. If the Inquisitor is on bad terms with him and punches him, then Dorian leaves and I doubt the Blacksmith ever has to admit he was wrong to spit on him when they first met. It is only when we get to Trespasser that people start to admit they got it wrong about him. There is also the different side you see to Dorian if you do Champions of the Just after visiting Redcliffe. Your initial impression of him is this cocky, confident, stylish mage, who mocks your ignorance of the workings of your mark. Then the next time you see him, he is on his knees having run ahead of the army to warn you, even though he knew you had rejected his help. He has lost everything (I had to craft some robes for him when we got to Skyhold). He is brave enough to stand up to Cullen and then helps the wounded Rodderick, comforting him in his dying moments, when the Chantry stalwarts are too busy arguing among themselves. That is a complete contrast from the impression created in Redcliffe. That is more what encouraged me to make the Zorro comparison. It's one of the reasons I like the character so very much. He does have these many facets and layers. I know you prefer the templar path, and the way Dorian comes across there, but I think you can see all of those layers when you do the mage mission. He has his humor to diffuse the situation, his brilliance in trying to figure out the problem of time travel and how to get back, and determination to see it through; there is his anger with Alexius, but also compassion for Felix and regret when Alexius is dead at his feet. He patiently explains what happened, and the plan, four times -- to the Herald, and then the two followers and Leliana. But, you don't get to see him truly vulnerable until you do his personal quest, and then even more if you do the romance. He doesn't share that with everyone, just the Inquisitor.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 17, 2017 23:35:29 GMT
Just finished the quest involving Dorain and dad
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 18, 2017 4:13:56 GMT
Just finished the quest involving Dorain and dad It's quite heartbreaking, isn't it? I'm still irked I can't hug Dorian in the scene back at Skyhold. He really needs one there.
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Post by pensieve on Jul 19, 2017 12:03:26 GMT
Just finished the quest involving Dorain and dad I love the voice acting in this scene, especially this line.
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Post by apocalypticham on Jul 24, 2017 8:43:40 GMT
Just finished the quest involving Dorain and dad Did you mean it was the first time you finished this quest? And your thoughts?
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Post by apocalypticham on Jul 24, 2017 8:46:00 GMT
Hello everyone! I used to post during the old BSN era but real life kicked in so I'd stopped all gaming activities until now. I remember a few old timers but most of them are gone now. I love Dorian. He's one of my all time favorite video game characters.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 24, 2017 13:33:23 GMT
Did you mean it was the first time you finished this quest? And your thoughts? No. I've completed the quest several times before. Its wasn't bad.
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Post by apocalypticham on Jul 30, 2017 10:57:14 GMT
I don't see it as "happy." My Inquisitor isn't happy about the situation. I don't think Dorian is either. I just don't see it in your way which essentially seems to be that the relationship no longer matters. I don't see that there is anything dishonest in what the game shows. Even at the post-Corypheus party when Dorian says that he will be remaining in the South, he adds the caveat "for now." He talked about Tevinter throughout the entire game, how he missed it and wanted to help it. To me it was always inevitable that he would be returning at some point. To deny that is to ignore everything the game presents the player with about Dorian as a character and how he relates to his homeland. He delayed for two years (if you take that option), putting his own desire aside for two years for the Inquisitor, for himself, and for them as a couple, because he loves the Inquisitor and wanted that time together. That's not nothing. I also don't see that ambition has anything to do with it. By his own words, he thought his father had disowned him; he didn't know that he was still officially the Pavus heir. For all he knew, he would only have his own resources to go on when he got there. The relationship matters very much, it is the one grand love of my Inquisitor's life, but it is in the past. Dorian's desire to return to the North was very obvious. He has an extreme personal bravery and idealism. He'd just returned from the North in Trespasser, so my understanding was that he'd left shortly after Corypheus was defeated. However, Dorian never lets the Inquisitor neither to follow, nor adopt Dorian's cause and vision for Tevinter as his own. Despite it being absolutely possible for the Inquisitor to be of absolutely no allegiance to anyone save for a long-term goal of thwarting Solas eventually that can be pursued anywhere. Sera adopts the Inquisitor into her underground movement at a drop of a hat, but Dorian gates him from start to finish. Dorian can go on and on about Tevinter, but he shuts of the moment the PC says: I want to help/I want to come with you/What do you need done? To be left out of the most important cause of Dorian's life is not an Inquisitor's decision, it is an unequivocal and flat out "no" from Dorian.
"you do not belong with me" is slightly more sweetened than Alistair's, but no less final.
I understand what you're getting from Dorian's words, but speaking from personal experiences, not wanting to "stay together" physically with my partner for whatever reasons, doesn't mean I love this person any less, and it absolutely doesn't mean we need to call it quits. There are people in real life who are bound by duties and other complicated life matters and thus romantic relationships need to come at a lower priority.
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Post by apocalypticham on Jul 30, 2017 11:00:55 GMT
Hmm this place needs more Dorian, and maybe a few more plants I'm not good at this whole screenshot deal. This one was taken a long time ago, using my friend's preset. I love this map so much!
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 30, 2017 13:59:52 GMT
apocalypticham Very nice! Is that the forest on the way to the elven temple, or the Emerald Graves? I can't tell without any other landmarks. As far as your response above, I agree with you 100%, but some players are pretty fixed about their opinion on the matter, even to the point of the romance being ruined for them. There is nothing any of our words can do to change that. I've tried numerous times and now give up any sort of conversation about it with certain people.
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Post by Verfallen on Jul 30, 2017 14:50:31 GMT
...some players are pretty fixed about their opinion on the matter, even to the point of the romance being ruined for them. There is nothing any of our words can do to change that. I've tried numerous times and now give up any sort of conversation about it with certain people. Agreed -some people simply don't want to be convinced once they've formed an opinion. Personally, I got a full-length novel written out of the situation the end of Trespasser left Dorian and his amatus in (which will undoubtedly become AU when DA4 comes out), so I suppose I'm guilty of having strong opinions on the subject, but I'm willing to entertain other possible interpretations. And to add a little more Dorian, here's a screenshot I enhanced a bit in Photoshop: Save
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Post by dawnold on Jul 30, 2017 15:32:29 GMT
apocalypticham Very nice! Is that the forest on the way to the elven temple, or the Emerald Graves? I can't tell without any other landmarks. As far as your response above, I agree with you 100%, but some players are pretty fixed about their opinion on the matter, even to the point of the romance being ruined for them. There is nothing any of our words can do to change that. I've tried numerous times and now give up any sort of conversation about it with certain people. I'd like to take a guess and say that's in the Frostback Basin. Probably the only place that has those spiky vines... I think.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 30, 2017 17:17:26 GMT
...some players are pretty fixed about their opinion on the matter, even to the point of the romance being ruined for them. There is nothing any of our words can do to change that. I've tried numerous times and now give up any sort of conversation about it with certain people. Agreed -some people simply don't want to be convinced once they've formed an opinion. Personally, I got a full-length novel written out of the situation the end of Trespasser left Dorian and his amatus in (which will undoubtedly become AU when DA4 comes out), so I suppose I'm guilty of having strong opinions on the subject, but I'm willing to entertain other possible interpretations. And to add a little more Dorian, here's a screenshot I enhanced a bit in Photoshop: SaveEh, I'm sort of the same way, I just don't force the issue on the forums or go about insisting that my view is how things are. Overall, while my Inquisitor isn't happy about the situation, he understands. Considering that he broaches the subject after the Temple of Mythal, and also has his party conversation say that he is staying "for now," it was only a matter of time. I also find it hard to believe that any couple wouldn't talk about it over a two year span of being together, with it constantly looming over them. So that is part of my headcanon. Really, the only thing my Inquisitor is pissed about is the way he found out, in that scene from Varric. But at least Dorian knows he fucked up; you can see it in his face in the scene. But I understand why he did that, too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2017 20:32:14 GMT
Yes, that is what principally upset my Inquisitor that he found out about it that way. I think I've mentioned before that what made it worse was that he had talked to Cassandra who had told him to "follow his heart", so was on his way back to Dorian to talk about that conversation, only to have the surprise party sprung on him. So his anger partly came out of being the butt of the joke, which seemed in very poor taste considering Varric also seemed to have known about Dorian going back to Tevinter before he did. Then when Dorian said about his father's murder his anger immediately evaporated. He just wished Dorian would let him do more to help find his murderers but he appreciates why it might prove problematic.
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