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Post by Link"Guess"ski on May 9, 2017 14:01:48 GMT
So as always some ground rules: First of all I am not talking about invididual quest quality or the writing or any individual quests. There are some bad quests in MEA, there are some poorly written lines and the occasional errors in continuity. I am talking about the structure of the game's side quests, and to an extent the main quests, as a whole. The way the game is structured. Second of all I am not talking about the Tasks. One of my favorite things that BioWare did with MEA is it removed its fetch quests from the normal quest system and called them 'tasks'. Tasks, are purposefully, not quests. They are literally things you do. No real story, no real character arcs, very straight forward go here and do this. Though there are a couple of very good Tasks too. But not talking about them. With that out of the way... When I first got into RPGs I really did not know what I was doing. I wasn't a serious gamer back then, I was at one time, got away from it, but video games were mindless entertainment where you just relax and take out your frustrations on visual pixels. I hadn't considered games as meaningful, deep, entertainment. Not until I played Mass Effect 2...and to a great extent ME 3 and all the lessons that came with it. Now another thing I realized around that time, with my studies and looking into writing in general there were two distinctive forms of writing in the media world. There was movie writing, and there was television writing, both were charateristically different. Movie writing was characterized by its relatively simple arcs. It was over and done with in the span of a very short time. Until very recently the longest movie story was pretty much trilogies, done in over in the span of roughly 6 hours of story. Not a lot of time to crunch huge meaningful stories into their framework. Television on the other hand is characterized by its much more long term story and character arcs. With dozens of episodes per seasons, and a lot of modern stories lasting anywhere between 5 and ten seasons that is a lot of time to devote to a story, or a lot of individual stories. Even the smallest television program tends to have more time to devote to its story(ies) then even the most longest movie. Again until recently. Now video games have always tried to imitate...movies. Video games, again until VERY recently, took more story ques from movies then they have from television writing. Even the longest and most complicated RPGs in recent years are relatively simple and straightforward series of stories. in other words tv writing from say...the sixties. Writing where the events of one installment (quest) really did not neccessarily have anything to do with any events outside of the relationship to the quest. Straightfoward, simple stories. This never made sense to me, upon realizing there is a difference, I was like 'well why don't games...especially RPGs...try and imitate...say tv shows rather then movies?' Afterall modern games especially you can get lost to them for up to two hundred hours at a time. But often enough the world is disconnected from one another. There are lots of individual stories, but they don't really have much impact on the overall game itself. Sometimes yes. Not until Mass Effect Andromeda, and quite probably the Witcher 3 came out. With these two games, finally, video games are starting to do long term story arcs with its quests, and quests relating one to another in surprising ways. Mass Effect Andromeda's side quests, and tasks for that matter, are intentionally separated into four separate areas. Main plot, allies and relationships, Heleus Assignments, and Tasks. It is structured like...well a season of Farscape. Main plot, the overall arc of the series, the season finales and the whole stuff with the whormholes and Crichtons character arc. The Allies and relationships, the episodes that focus on expanding the lore, the world, and focusing on each invididual member of Moya's crew, or even some of the bad guys in the series. And the Heleus assignments, random adventures, throw away episodes that don't REALLY tie into an overall story arc, relatively one off and you can even skip them and not miss too much, but sometimes they do relate in surprising ways. Its all about continuity, and this is why I think Andromeda is well written. Because there is a huge sense of continuity in it. The main quest is wonderfully tight, with each bit contributing to plot and character developments later on. But even in the dialogue line, how a throwaway line by Jaal sets up the exact ending scene of his loyalty mission, or how a throwaway line by Peebee relates to something like three quests in the game, and the whole subplot of the game that there is something really shady about the Andromeda Initative. Something you probably would not notice without a second PT. And this is not even touching on all the relations, and the evidence for it, within the game for the Remnant and the Angarra. And yet, Andromeda gets a lot of flack for its writing? Why? Well one reason is because there is some elements of poor writing here and there. The romance dialogue can come off especially cringy...but I think its mainly because its different. Its something new. And its something that forces you to play it because there are so many hmm moments which paints a larger picture in the game, and maybe even for future games. So many lines that are like 'well that's intersting, so that is what that means, what does that mean?' and there is a lot of payoff in the game, and a lot I hope in future games. BAnd all this comes together at the end of the game, the ending, if you put the effort in and play the game, the ending feels special. Your hardwork is reflected. Exactly like some of the best tv shows. Dude, there are movies that are based on full novels while there are TV shows that are solely screen plays. The same applies vice versa. It literally means nothing except for the fact that obviously you're safer off with implementing an already aknowledged plot of a book into a film than if you have to come up with something that hasn't been proven to be liked by the audience. I really don't get your point. Good writing can be summarized under a few criteria: Good prose (eg. word economy, language, detail), good characterization, tone, show-don't-tell, plotting and expository writing. Doesn't matter whether it's a comic, a novel, a movie, a game or whatever, the format only dictates how much room there is for it and how you have to pace yourself. It's true, in a movie there's less room for detail via dialogue the more characters and character arcs you're trying to cram in there (which is why MCU movies are terrible IMHO). Andromeda's writing problems have to do with all the criteria I mentioned. Sometimes the tone gets off the rails (like the post-mission meetings, ugh), the characterization isn't always good (Ryder, Gil, Cora etc.) the plotting is atrocious (Then you meet the Archon, and then you meet the Angara and then and then and then), the expository writing is too blatant but that's BioWare games in a nutshell. The game prefers telling over showing the main plot except for one mission where you actually see first-hand what the Kett are doing to know why you should hate them. The prose is a muddled mess, full of awkward anachronisms and sayings that are like "who ever says that!?" like the "I'd rather eat lunch, not be lunch" kind of lines". The writing is only passable as "decent" because video games are generally so shitty when it comes to writing. And, it's true, Andromeda can be seen as a TV show in how each planet has its own arc that is thematically linked to the general story of the game but they're their own seperate plots, but what about the fetch quests? What about the 20 or so quests on each planet that just asks you to go collect stuff? Why should we defend that? The ending is the highlight of the game, thankfully but I feel like the way it "reflects" on some of your choices is tacked on. I liked seeing members of outposts join you in the game and I liked the Pathfinders vs Dunn's life scenario but the way Archon talks about Eos and the way the squad is just kinda there was only so-so. The lack of it all culminating in an actual boss battle where people get through the hordes of foes and finally shoot the Archon (giant tentacle creature that comes out of nowhere to be the final boss) and being able to see as you were taking your last shots how you and 30 others fire the shit out of the Archon, that would've been great. This is all discounting how uninvested I was in actually doing what we're doing in the final mission. Spectacle is wonderful, I'll give it that, and it was fun, but I didn't feel the weight of anything in the plot because nothing in this game's story is set up very well. Luckily as soon as you have to find the Meridian and Archon seems to be racing you to do the same it actually works well, but the lead up to finding out what the Meridian is or anything else surrounding it felt weak to me. It's too much of a magical solution to everything we need and it sucks all the potential for real intrigue out of the plot like fighting over hard resources or having to sacrifice a settlement to preserve the rest of the initiative or something like that. Those things should've been closer involved with the main plot I think. The ending is great, yeah. It tries to take into account everything that happened previously in the game but that doesn't suddenly make all those boring side-missions or disappointing conclusions to the actual substantial side content feel worthwhile. I don't want to replay the game and get 100% viability for each world again. I will still never complete any of the obvious "collect 30 something" quests. The ending is good but it doesn't change the middle of the game at all. It's just the game summarizing your achievements, not actual cause and effect EXCEPT for the macro-level decisions like the Pathfinders and getting settlements made.
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Post by RoboticWater on May 9, 2017 14:31:47 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's side quests, and tasks for that matter, are intentionally separated into four separate areas. Main plot, allies and relationships, Heleus Assignments, and Tasks. It is structured like...well a season of Farscape. Main plot, the overall arc of the series, the season finales and the whole stuff with the whormholes and Crichtons character arc. The Allies and relationships, the episodes that focus on expanding the lore, the world, and focusing on each invididual member of Moya's crew, or even some of the bad guys in the series. And the Heleus assignments, random adventures, throw away episodes that don't REALLY tie into an overall story arc, relatively one off and you can even skip them and not miss too much, but sometimes they do relate in surprising ways. But this is how every RPG is structured. In fact, this is how every RPG has been structured for as long as I can remember. Andromeda doesn't do anything new with the structure. I suppose it deliberately tells you which quests are worthless by separating them into categories, but I'm not sure the game benefits from having a blatant "worthless" pile constantly growing in your journal. It's a constant reminder of the kind of content BioWare saw fit to put in their game. Again, I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that this is somehow unique to Andromeda. This is just basic foreshadowing and world-building. Even linear media like books do this, and I think they do it with far more tact, subtlety, and intrigue. This is a common praise I see for the game. "But it has so much potential!" you proclaim, and then I say "why wasn't that in this game?" because what is in this game isn't nearly enough to make it interesting. I shouldn't have to think of how great a sequel should be to keep myself invested in a franchise. Potential doesn't make the dialog less cringey or the quest premises less bland. Andromeda had a great premise brimming with possibility, yet BioWare chose to ignore nearly all of it. All the BS:G politics and first contact complications left almost entirely untouched. It's just a waste. For what? Vague hints towards some future events? It's not enough. That's just basic catharsis though. I suppose anything's an improvement over the last Mass Effect in this regard, but the ending isn't special. It works, but it's let down by a weak foundation. I can sort of see why you like Andromeda's quests (I don't agree though), but I still don't get why you think other games should imitate it. Everything you've mentioned is not only standard fair for RPG, but it's also done better in other RPG. While I understand that you're probably riffing off of the "BioWare should copy X" threads, you haven't done much to prove your thesis. Andromeda is a very derivative game that benefits very little from retreading oft-trodden ground.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 14:59:47 GMT
They had 2 good quests. 1: the turian who maybe shot his leader. Your choice in that one comes back later in ways you may not have expected. 2: on eos where you out the drills because one of your choices that actually amtters is. Y action (where you place it) not dialogue. They need more of that i think this is the wrong way to look at it. Granted personal preferences are important but if you judge side quests by how much the choices matter...especially to the game as a whole and not just the quest in question...few games do that well. Even Witcher 3 and DAO has only a handful of examples. You misunderstand. The turian doesn't matter to the story but later in the story you see him again and it's very surprising. I didn't know my house led to him becoming what he became. I think we need more quests with the results less clear cut and obvious. When our options are things like "kill him, spare him" we kinda know where it's going but sometimes you see something you just didn't know would happen and that's great. The eos thing, it sort of only does matter to that quest but my point is that we need more times when our physical action matters other than interrupts. I physically had to walk to point A or point B and choose where to place my drill. It's so subtle but it's so much cooler than me saying "put it here/there"
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Post by colfoley on May 9, 2017 18:44:04 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's side quests, and tasks for that matter, are intentionally separated into four separate areas. Main plot, allies and relationships, Heleus Assignments, and Tasks. It is structured like...well a season of Farscape. Main plot, the overall arc of the series, the season finales and the whole stuff with the whormholes and Crichtons character arc. The Allies and relationships, the episodes that focus on expanding the lore, the world, and focusing on each invididual member of Moya's crew, or even some of the bad guys in the series. And the Heleus assignments, random adventures, throw away episodes that don't REALLY tie into an overall story arc, relatively one off and you can even skip them and not miss too much, but sometimes they do relate in surprising ways. But this is how every RPG is structured. In fact, this is how every RPG has been structured for as long as I can remember. Andromeda doesn't do anything new with the structure. I suppose it deliberately tells you which quests are worthless by separating them into categories, but I'm not sure the game benefits from having a blatant "worthless" pile constantly growing in your journal. It's a constant reminder of the kind of content BioWare saw fit to put in their game. Again, I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that this is somehow unique to Andromeda. This is just basic foreshadowing and world-building. Even linear media like books do this, and I think they do it with far more tact, subtlety, and intrigue. This is a common praise I see for the game. "But it has so much potential!" you proclaim, and then I say "why wasn't that in this game?" because what is in this game isn't nearly enough to make it interesting. I shouldn't have to think of how great a sequel should be to keep myself invested in a franchise. Potential doesn't make the dialog less cringey or the quest premises less bland. Andromeda had a great premise brimming with possibility, yet BioWare chose to ignore nearly all of it. All the BS:G politics and first contact complications left almost entirely untouched. It's just a waste. For what? Vague hints towards some future events? It's not enough. That's just basic catharsis though. I suppose anything's an improvement over the last Mass Effect in this regard, but the ending isn't special. It works, but it's let down by a weak foundation. I can sort of see why you like Andromeda's quests (I don't agree though), but I still don't get why you think other games should imitate it. Everything you've mentioned is not only standard fair for RPG, but it's also done better in other RPG. While I understand that you're probably riffing off of the "BioWare should copy X" threads, you haven't done much to prove your thesis. Andromeda is a very derivative game that benefits very little from retreading oft-trodden ground. first of all no...they aren't. The only RPG that comes close to even being structured this way is Witcher 3. But most of them you have to either guess, or since there is no hierarchy in how you do the quests...which ones are important...the quality of said quests is all over the map. This is especially problematic in Bethesda RPGs. And you misunderstood. Andromeda is well written and structured. That should be clear how i wrote my post. The hope in the future comes from if Bioware sticks to their guns and improve rather then try and ape some lesser product.
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Post by Light on May 9, 2017 18:57:57 GMT
You might have almost had me right up until you compared the disconnected mess of Andromeda to the beauty of Farscape.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 9, 2017 19:29:01 GMT
When it comes to movie vs. television writing, I always like to point to ME1 and 2. Mass Effect 1 was written like a movie. It was single story with a beginning (Eden Prime/Citadel), a middles (Feros/Novaria/Therum) and a finale (Virmire/Ilos/Citadel). Within the middle part, you could stretch the whole thing out with UNCs and side quests if you wanted but the main plot has classic cinematic movie writing. It works for ME1 but one has to admit, especially if you do the side quests, the middle part can stretch out a bit. Now we go to Mass Effect 2, which has classic TV series writing. You can think of each recruitment, loyalty and main mission as an episode. I still think to this day that this structure worked exceptionally well, especially for what the game tried to do. Ironically, I do think that ME2 has by far the weakest story of the MET but that's a different issue, the structure of the game was done very well.
So I agree with the OP, the TV episodic writing structure works well for games (I guess it's no surprise, episodic games became a things as well then).
As for ME:A, I get what you are saying OP and I would agree but IMO, there are two problems: 1. In ME2, the structure was very clear and well established. It was immediately visible to any player. TIM gave you the recruitment missions and the LMs popped up through Kelly Chambers or talking to your crew. The main missions even trigger forcefully after a certain amount of progress and you need to do them at that time (like Horizon or the Collector Ship). While that restricts the player, it also structures the plot (or the season if you will). You didn't really need a manual for this, you didn't need to know what you are doing to get the game structure right, it just fell into place.
In contrast, ME:A, due to it's open environments does not provide this kind of framework for the structure. You get a lot of the assignments by randomly walking into quest givers on planets or even through backtracking. That tasks maybe called tasks but hey, no one tells you how important they really are. Sure, on you second playthrough, you know all of this and you - the player - can now structure your game accordingly but on my first playthrough, I completely lost track of the plot. Why? because I didn't know, couldn't know how or if things were structured. I had the mission to go after the Archon but would that advance the main plot to a point where I could no longer do side missions? No idea, so I better do them now, right? So I went all over the cluster doing side content for 50 hours, just to be sure, only to then get a video where stuff was mentioned that I didn't even know about yet (a settled meridian for example) because the game screwed up it's own timeline. So while the whole thing may have been intended as a TV series structure, it also tries to give the player a maximum amount of freedom, which of course is diametrically opposed to that structure. So what you end up with is an unpredictable mess that baits players - completionists especially - into seperating the content and you no longer end up with a nice mix of character episodes, side plot episodes and main plot episodes but you do them all in different chinks. This wouldn't work well for a TV series and it doesn't work well here either.
2. The second problem is the open world structure. ME2 didn't have it, which was a shame but it was an essential part of why the TV episode structure worked so well. Every episode had it's set piece, it's dedicated stage for its dedicated plot and it worked brilliantly. ME:A has an open world where I do quests according to location, not according to plot. That means two things for the TV episode structure: First, you will have 3 episodes on the ice planet, then 5 on the desert planet and because the player will play efficiently, they won't mix this up. So that's pretty bad. And second, when you try to fix the first issue by dividing episodes/quests up between location to get the variety in, players will still work by location and that will result in them jumbling all those episodes together and experiencing them at the same time. I mean, I agree, If it had worked that way the I did play one night just doing one quest - say, the "first baby born in Andromeda" quest - and experiencing that like a TV series episode, that would have been great but it would also have driven me nuts with all the flying around and the back tracking. I did more than enough of that already when jumbling quests together, so that I could resolve 5 quests on Kadara instead of just one. But when you do this, the whole TV episode structure that worked so well in EM2 (because ME2 didn't leave you a choice) falls apart.
So tl:dr, I agree that TV episode writing can work well in video games (ME2 proved that). I disagree that ME:A did it well. Why? Because TV writing needs structure. ME2 provided that structure by sacrificing an open world but ME:A tried to do both, open world and TV wirting structure and it is the perfect showcase for how and why that doesn't work well.
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Post by RoboticWater on May 9, 2017 19:31:27 GMT
first of all no...they aren't. The only RPG that comes close to even being structured this way is Witcher 3. But most of them you have to either guess, or since there is no hierarchy in how you do the quests...which ones are important...the quality of said quests is all over the map. This is especially problematic in Bethesda RPGs. In terms of production value? Sure, Witcher 3 is the only other RPG franchise that emphasizes cinematics to such a degree. The problem is that plenty of other games do most of what Andromeda does, but better. I know plenty of games with better shooting mechanics and more exciting stories as well as plenty of open world games with better exploration and writing. No, no one's made a game specifically like Andromeda, but that doesn't make it special. "the quality of said quests is all over the map." That's decidedly untrue. outside of the question marks, which are clearly marked as separate, the quests have a fairly high baseline of quality. If nothing else, they maintain a consistency in animation and dialog, which I can't say is true for Andromeda. This is actually the reason I prefer Witcher 3's method of throwing most quests in the same pile. You can pick up what seems like a fetch quest and get some neat story out of it. Andromeda just straight up tells you "this is pointless videogame filler." That just takes me out of the experience. But I didn't get that at all from your post. You said that Andromeda was able to provide basic world-building and foreshadowing and a decent ending, not that any of it was especially good. But what lesser product are you talking about? Prey is the most recent example, and that game has a mastery of atmosphere, world-building, level design, and unique gameplay mechanics that BioWare hasn't been able to provide in years (if ever, for some).
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 1:32:52 GMT
first of all no...they aren't. The only RPG that comes close to even being structured this way is Witcher 3. But most of them you have to either guess, or since there is no hierarchy in how you do the quests...which ones are important...the quality of said quests is all over the map. This is especially problematic in Bethesda RPGs. In terms of production value? Sure, Witcher 3 is the only other RPG franchise that emphasizes cinematics to such a degree. The problem is that plenty of other games do most of what Andromeda does, but better. I know plenty of games with better shooting mechanics and more exciting stories as well as plenty of open world games with better exploration and writing. No, no one's made a game specifically like Andromeda, but that doesn't make it special. "the quality of said quests is all over the map." That's decidedly untrue. outside of the question marks, which are clearly marked as separate, the quests have a fairly high baseline of quality. If nothing else, they maintain a consistency in animation and dialog, which I can't say is true for Andromeda. This is actually the reason I prefer Witcher 3's method of throwing most quests in the same pile. You can pick up what seems like a fetch quest and get some neat story out of it. Andromeda just straight up tells you "this is pointless videogame filler." That just takes me out of the experience. But I didn't get that at all from your post. You said that Andromeda was able to provide basic world-building and foreshadowing and a decent ending, not that any of it was especially good. But what lesser product are you talking about? Prey is the most recent example, and that game has a mastery of atmosphere, world-building, level design, and unique gameplay mechanics that BioWare hasn't been able to provide in years (if ever, for some). great points all..but i was not talking about witcher 3 negatively. Though now that you mention it there were a few times when side quests outshined main quests in the game. You're actually right. Considering my OP was talking about the structure and not quality. But since you open up the conversation to quality...from a story perspective...Andromeda is pretty well written. Sure if you compare Andromeda to every bit of fiction ever there are several good examples out there that do things better. But gaming? Andromeda is quite easily the best written story (and side stories many of them) that Bioware has ever done. And probably one of the best in gaming. I can only think.of Bioshock and Witcher 3 as better examples of story writing.
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Post by erikson on May 10, 2017 3:27:42 GMT
I liked quite a lot of Andromeda's side missions, but I hope BioWare learns from certain aspects of design that may not be all that welcome, particularly chasing leads. I enjoy clue searching and stuff like that, but I like it more when I can read or see information and then put 2 and 2 together. What I don't like is having to jump from system to system to chase a radiation trail (and this is coming from someone who actually likes the meat of the Contagion quest, what little there was). I also hope that next time Mass Effect eases up on the puzzles, though hopefully we're done with accessing remnant consoles for a while (or indefinitely). I like following the radiation trails (I mean, in a scifi space epic game I think it fits well). I think an improvement would be if they kept it to maybe 2 or 3 systems rather than the high number they make you fly through in the game.
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Post by OdanUrr on May 10, 2017 3:43:26 GMT
I'm sorry but I cannot disagree more with the OP. First of all, the fact that BioWare has reclassified certain activities in the game as 'tasks' and not 'quests' is, in my opinion, to its detriment. It suggests, rather blatantly, that these activities are less than quests and, consequently, probably not worth your time. In fact, many of these tasks consists of the "fetch quests" the OP mentions, what only serves to reinforce this notion that tasks are (or will be) repetitive and tedious. The fact that they decided to keep them under a new name is not at all praiseworthy. Secondly, on the matter of movies and TV shows. I fundamentally disagree that movies are characterized by "relatively simple arcs" unless you mean to say that story arcs in movies are restricted by an arguably imposed running time, of around 2 hours nowadays, with notable exceptions. Whether a story is "meaningful" or not is not a matter of opinion not length. I have watched many movies that were more "meaningful" to me than entire seasons of TV shows. Do you mean to say that a story's execution suffers when it is conditioned by time? Perhaps, but that comes down to the story you want to tell and how well (or ill) suited is the medium you've chosen to tell it. For instance, certain book adaptations work best as TV shows or mini-series instead of movies, like Game of Thrones. On the other hand, certain book adaptations can be brought to life more effectively and efficiently through a movie, like The Martian. But these are adaptations, where the story has already been told and the original medium (books) chosen. What happens when a story is built from the ground up for a season of a TV show, like in, say, The Flash? A typical season of The Flash consists of 20+ episodes, an overarching story-arc for the season, and "filler" episodes that, at their best, give us insight into the protagonists' personalities, their relationship with each other, and reinforce elements from the main story-arc. The first episode or couple of episodes in a season introduce the main arc, then we forget about it until the mid-season finale, then we forget about it some more until the season finale. Most people would probably agree that a season's best episodes can usually be found among those that revolve around the main story arc. This is an inherent weakness with the way most American (British have shorter seasons) TV shows are structured nowadays. Sure, you have a lot more time than a movie to tell your story (6 or 7 movies' worth of time), but it is generally (varies from show to show) used less efficiently. Just compare any American remake of a British TV show to have an idea; take Life on Mars for instance. The first season of the UK series lasted 8 episodes; when the Americans remade it they produced 17. So the American remake is twice as long as the British one, but guess which one has received far more favourable (critical) reviews? And this is simply because the UK version tells the better story of the two, irrespective of the running time. Telling a good (coherent, well paced and developed, with 'real' characters, etc.) story is largely time-independent, and I say "largely" because if you need 4 hours to tell such a story and someone orders you to do it in 2, then odds are it will suffer for it. Nevertheless, the same holds true if you have determined that you only need 20 hours to tell your story, and someone orders you to do it in 40. There are other factors at play here, in particular related to how long you can hold a player's attention on any given story, be it a 'side' or 'main' quest. For instance, in Fallout 4: The Search for Everything But Shaun, this 'main' arc to find your son is at odds with the freedom Fallout gives you to explore the world around you. In my particular case, I stopped playing the game without ever finding Shaun, some 80 hours into it. It was simply that exploring the world held more appeal to me than this 'main' story being forced upon me. Andromeda suffers from the exact same problem, compounded in my case by the fact that its 'world' is far less appealing than that of the Fallout series: in Fallout, you feel like you're discovering things; in Andromeda, you feel like you're encountering them. Both games suffer from trying to tell a 'main' story in a world so vast (and empty, to different degrees), where you're free to explore every inch of it, that the 'main' story is diluted and lost. That is, in and of itself, a huge problem, but it would also be probably less of one if the 'main' story was good. However, it is anything but: it references a key uprising that we're given shockingly few details of; it hints at "something really shady" with the Andromeda Initiative, but nothing ever comes of it; it features a villain so one-dimensional, cliché, and dumb (especially dumb), that having managed to track down the Nexus (how and when did he do that by the way?) to kidnap your sibling because of his AI implant (how come this Borg-like species hasn't come across a civilization with AI tech before this?), he doesn't take the opportunity to blow up his enemies' main base of operations to kingdom come; among others, many others. The less we say on the matter of payoff the better. The ending's pretty cool sure (and by ending I am referring to the "last stand" on Meridian, not the movie night quest, which feels like a pale attempt to reproduce the Citadel DLC), but it's like in every season of The Flash where they save their best material for the opening and the closing, to the detriment of the rest of the season. If you, or anyone else, is willing to read a whole lot more on what I thought of Andromeda, I direct you to my lengthier piece: Analyzing Mass Effect: Andromeda
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 4:08:36 GMT
I'm sorry but I cannot disagree more with the OP. First of all, the fact that BioWare has reclassified certain activities in the game as 'tasks' and not 'quests' is, in my opinion, to its detriment. It suggests, rather blatantly, that these activities are less than quests and, consequently, probably not worth your time. In fact, many of these tasks consists of the "fetch quests" the OP mentions, what only serves to reinforce this notion that tasks are (or will be) repetitive and tedious. The fact that they decided to keep them under a new name is not at all praiseworthy. Secondly, on the matter of movies and TV shows. I fundamentally disagree that movies are characterized by "relatively simple arcs" unless you mean to say that story arcs in movies are restricted by an arguably imposed running time, of around 2 hours nowadays, with notable exceptions. Whether a story is "meaningful" or not is not a matter of opinion not length. I have watched many movies that were more "meaningful" to me than entire seasons of TV shows. Do you mean to say that a story's execution suffers when it is conditioned by time? Perhaps, but that comes down to the story you want to tell and how well (or ill) suited is the medium you've chosen to tell it. For instance, certain book adaptations work best as TV shows or mini-series instead of movies, like Game of Thrones. On the other hand, certain book adaptations can be brought to life more effectively and efficiently through a movie, like The Martian. But these are adaptations, where the story has already been told and the original medium (books) chosen. What happens when a story is built from the ground up for a season of a TV show, like in, say, The Flash? A typical season of The Flash consists of 20+ episodes, an overarching story-arc for the season, and "filler" episodes that, at their best, give us insight into the protagonists' personalities, their relationship with each other, and reinforce elements from the main story-arc. The first episode or couple of episodes in a season introduce the main arc, then we forget about it until the mid-season finale, then we forget about it some more until the season finale. Most people would probably agree that a season's best episodes can usually be found among those that revolve around the main story arc. This is an inherent weakness with the way most American (British have shorter seasons) TV shows are structured nowadays. Sure, you have a lot more time than a movie to tell your story (6 or 7 movies' worth of time), but it is generally (varies from show to show) used less efficiently. Just compare any American remake of a British TV show to have an idea; take Life on Mars for instance. The first season of the UK series lasted 8 episodes; when the Americans remade it they produced 17. So the American remake is twice as long as the British one, but guess which one has received far more favourable (critical) reviews? And this is simply because the UK version tells the better story of the two, irrespective of the running time. Telling a good (coherent, well paced and developed, with 'real' characters, etc.) story is largely time-independent, and I say "largely" because if you need 4 hours to tell such a story and someone orders you to do it in 2, then odds are it will suffer for it. Nevertheless, the same holds true if you have determined that you only need 20 hours to tell your story, and someone orders you to do it in 40. There are other factors at play here, in particular related to how long you can hold a player's attention on any given story, be it a 'side' or 'main' quest. For instance, in Fallout 4: The Search for Everything But Shaun, this 'main' arc to find your son is at odds with the freedom Fallout gives you to explore the world around you. In my particular case, I stopped playing the game without ever finding Shaun, some 80 hours into it. It was simply that exploring the world held more appeal to me than this 'main' story being forced upon me. Andromeda suffers from the exact same problem, compounded in my case by the fact that its 'world' is far less appealing than that of the Fallout series: in Fallout, you feel like you're discovering things; in Andromeda, you feel like you're encountering them. Both games suffer from trying to tell a 'main' story in a world so vast (and empty, to different degrees), where you're free to explore every inch of it, that the 'main' story is diluted and lost. That is, in and of itself, a huge problem, but it would also be probably less of one if the 'main' story was good. However, it is anything but: it references a key uprising that we're given shockingly few details of; it hints at "something really shady" with the Andromeda Initiative, but nothing ever comes of it; it features a villain so one-dimensional, cliché, and dumb (especially dumb), that having managed to track down the Nexus (how and when did he do that by the way?) to kidnap your sibling because of his AI implant (how come this Borg-like species hasn't come across a civilization with AI tech before this?), he doesn't take the opportunity to blow up his enemies' main base of operations to kingdom come; among others, many others. The less we say on the matter of payoff the better. The ending's pretty cool sure (and by ending I am referring to the "last stand" on Meridian, not the movie night quest, which feels like a pale attempt to reproduce the Citadel DLC), but it's like in every season of The Flash where they save their best material for the opening and the closing, to the detriment of the rest of the season. If you, or anyone else, is willing to read a whole lot more on what I thought of Andromeda, I direct you to my lengthier piece: Analyzing Mass Effect: Andromedathe only problem is every game ever or at least the vast majority of games have a filler or collection mechanic. Ie fetch questing in one way or another. Just in RPGs traditionally it's been far harder to divide the two of them. Take Witcher 3 for instance. With the question marks some were good some were horrible. Some led to interesting quests and activities. Some were virtually dead ends. But there was no way to tell the good from the bad. So i wasted my v time on them instead of actually doing the things i liked because i was hoping for the few gems. But with Andromeda i know what i am getting with the tasks. This does not mean they all suck...some are worth doing...but in general you have a good idea what you are getting into.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 10, 2017 4:17:53 GMT
The OP must be a masochist. No. He's a student and he's trying to come up with solutions instead of dogging the product (which I have excelled at!). He's come up with a plan to attack the issue instead of bemoaning it (like I do and excel at it). I give him credit for trying and laying down a nice summary. I learned something from him through the post. AlanC9 is another. Andromedary is also another. These guys are like me, fans of the franchises. Maybe he is a masochist, but he's willing to share his ideas.
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Post by xetykins on May 10, 2017 4:47:18 GMT
Take Witcher 3 for instance. With the question marks some were good some were horrible. Some led to interesting quests and activities. Some were virtually dead ends. But there was no way to tell the good from the bad. So i wasted my v time on them instead of actually doing the things i liked because i was hoping for the few gems. But with Andromeda i know what i am getting with the tasks. This does not mean they all suck...some are worth doing...but in general you have a good idea what you are getting into. Ah but the question marks in TW3 has never clogged your quest log, because they are what they are, 100% money maker. If you are ever going to compare anything side quests in Andromeda then do it to the Monster hunts in TW3.
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Post by malgus on May 10, 2017 8:00:50 GMT
the only problem is every game ever or at least the vast majority of games have a filler or collection mechanic. Ie fetch questing in one way or another. Just in RPGs traditionally it's been far harder to divide the two of them. Take Witcher 3 for instance. With the question marks some were good some were horrible. Some led to interesting quests and activities. Some were virtually dead ends. But there was no way to tell the good from the bad. So i wasted my v time on them instead of actually doing the things i liked because i was hoping for the few gems. But with Andromeda i know what i am getting with the tasks. This does not mean they all suck...some are worth doing...but in general you have a good idea what you are getting into. Yep totally I prefer having them separated in sections, that way I know which side quests to ignore and which one to do, because for the exception of kerry interview I did not do any tasks knowing they would not be intetresting for me.
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Post by danishgambit on May 10, 2017 8:16:34 GMT
It's an open world problem really. Even if you wanted to make every single sidequest meaningful could you? Is there really enough time in any development cycle to handcraft every side mission and main mission so that they aren't just tedious fetch quests? GTAV is the best at avoiding this problem. The main missions were all fun, handcrafted set pieces that were enjoyable to play. And many of the sidequests were ALSO handcrafted and enjoyable to play. You weren't just going around fetching drugs and killing x number of nameless henchmen as people who haven't played the game allude to. In fact fetch quests were added ONLY because some people actually liked looking for things all over the open world like a scavenger hunt. So if you wanted to find 100 random things on the entire map you could do that.
But in the multiplayer we could see the drop in quality. Quests were not handcrafted at all and you just drove like 5 minutes to some location, killed a bunch of randoms and the mission was over. There was nothing else to them at all and it was just tedious. The ironic thing is that one of the missions in the singleplayer makes fun of this problem in video games by making you mop a floor for a few minutes. You don't do anything but mop a floor because reasons. That's pretty much what open worlds expect you to do. They want you to do some monotonous task for terrible reasons and then make you do more monotonous tasks for terrible reasons. It's not fun.
Here's the mopping part of a heist mission:
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 15:32:58 GMT
It's an open world problem really. Even if you wanted to make every single sidequest meaningful could you? Is there really enough time in any development cycle to handcraft every side mission and main mission so that they aren't just tedious fetch quests? GTAV is the best at avoiding this problem. The main missions were all fun, handcrafted set pieces that were enjoyable to play. And many of the sidequests were ALSO handcrafted and enjoyable to play. You weren't just going around fetching drugs and killing x number of nameless henchmen as people who haven't played the game allude to. In fact fetch quests were added ONLY because some people actually liked looking for things all over the open world like a scavenger hunt. So if you wanted to find 100 random things on the entire map you could do that. But in the multiplayer we could see the drop in quality. Quests were not handcrafted at all and you just drove like 5 minutes to some location, killed a bunch of randoms and the mission was over. There was nothing else to them at all and it was just tedious. The ironic thing is that one of the missions in the singleplayer makes fun of this problem in video games by making you mop a floor for a few minutes. You don't do anything but mop a floor because reasons. That's pretty much what open worlds expect you to do. They want you to do some monotonous task for terrible reasons and then make you do more monotonous tasks for terrible reasons. It's not fun. Here's the mopping part of a heist mission: its not really an open world problem though. Arguably the ME game with the worst side quests in the series was ME 2. Especially if you don't count loyalty missions. ME 2 was also perhaps MEs most linear game. While games like Witcher 3 and Andromeda prove you can have great side quests along with huge open maps.
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Post by wildhog on May 10, 2017 16:10:06 GMT
Sorry but no. As a lot of posts noted, all sidequest have bad writing, no real consequences and reek of lazyness. They feel awful compared to the Witcher 3 or other open world games. After playing the game i think the only things that are somewhat worth doing are the main quest and loyalty missions(just like DAI). I think all of Andromeda problems come down to the atrocius writing and Mac Walters direction.
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 16:30:14 GMT
Sorry but no. As a lot of posts noted, all sidequest have bad writing, no real consequences and reek of lazyness. They feel awful compared to the Witcher 3 or other open world games. After playing the game i think the only things that are somewhat worth doing are the main quest and loyalty missions(just like DAI). I think all of Andromeda problems come down to the atrocius writing and Mac Walters direction. ok...the choices mattrring argument suddenly seems like it's selective. Because something like 95% Of the quests in Witcher 3 have no consequences outside of the events of the quest. And even then a lot of them seem small fry.
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Post by chawktrick on May 10, 2017 17:44:02 GMT
You make some good points and I agree with many of them, OP.
However, my biggest gripe with the content outside of the main story line is it still lacks depth. The Truth and Trespass quest is an example I rely on usually when discussing this point. This particular quest requires the player to planet hop between almost every single major location as if traveling is part of the quest's plot (which it isn't). It then ends with a relatively anti-climatic showdown in a cave... a cave that is a pass-through or landing point for a couple other quests in the game.
This proves a couple things to me - 1) adding travel is a crutch for putting depth to the story and 2) they don't have enough interesting locations to utilize.
It's those kind of writing decisions that distract from the overall product. All that said, I do think the main story plot and many of the Allies & Relationship quests are well done. But, at beast, I think this game is a C+ to B- in the quest development/writing department. It's just average.
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 18:19:20 GMT
You make some good points and I agree with many of them, OP. However, my biggest gripe with the content outside of the main story line is it still lacks depth. The Truth and Trespass quest is an example I rely on usually when discussing this point. This particular quest requires the player to planet hop between almost every single major location as if traveling is part of the quest's plot (which it isn't). It then ends with a relatively anti-climatic showdown in a cave... a cave that is a pass-through or landing point for a couple other quests in the game. This proves a couple things to me - 1) adding travel is a crutch for putting depth to the story and 2) they don't have enough interesting locations to utilize. It's those kind of writing decisions that distract from the overall product. All that said, I do think the main story plot and many of the Allies & Relationship quests are well done. But, at beast, I think this game is a C+ to B- in the quest development/writing department. It's just average. Yeah out of all the 'Allies and Relationship' quests that one probably bugged me the most, I think though mine had more to do with timing because, well for me, it was a rather fascinating mystery and kind of a fun little who dun it conspiracy along the lines of...well some of the stuff I am interested in IRL and in game like Ryder Family Secrets. But honestly I kind of agree. Again, I admire the structure and the way they set up the side quests in the game, I think this is something games should try and emulate. It was almost like Dragon Age Origins or Witcher 3 in terms of quaity and structure and I want BioWare to improve on this aspect in the future, because now that they have figured out a strong basic structure to do side quests and open world in general, all that is left to do is improve on it... But as far as the quality is concerned I agree. MEAs side quests (again the Heleus Assignments and the Allies and Relationships) I would rate, if I were to rate them, anywhere between tier 5 and tier 1. Wheras DA I was anywhere between Tier 4 and Tier 2. But, MEA has a lot of Tier 2 quests too, more then DA I where I would only rate like 2 that highly.
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Post by wildhog on May 10, 2017 18:57:14 GMT
Sorry but no. As a lot of posts noted, all sidequest have bad writing, no real consequences and reek of lazyness. They feel awful compared to the Witcher 3 or other open world games. After playing the game i think the only things that are somewhat worth doing are the main quest and loyalty missions(just like DAI). I think all of Andromeda problems come down to the atrocius writing and Mac Walters direction. ok...the choices mattrring argument suddenly seems like it's selective. Because something like 95% Of the quests in Witcher 3 have no consequences outside of the events of the quest. And even then a lot of them seem small fry. Fair enough, but personally i was talking about the consequences inside the sidequests. MEA doen't really gives u any choice in the sidequests besides choosing if u will do them or not. The Witcher 3 does have different outcomes in most of them.
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 18:59:46 GMT
ok...the choices mattrring argument suddenly seems like it's selective. Because something like 95% Of the quests in Witcher 3 have no consequences outside of the events of the quest. And even then a lot of them seem small fry. Fair enough, but personally i was talking about the consequences inside the sidequests. MEA doen't really gives u any choice in the sidequests besides choosing if u will do them or not. The Witcher 3 does have different outcomes in most of them. That's just...not true...granted I suppose most of the side quests don't have choices in the middle of them which then effect the ending of that specific side quest like some of the W 3 quest chains do, but pretty much all of them have choices somewhere, that can have huge impacts on the endings of those individual quests. Look at Sleeping Dragons for instance.
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Post by chawktrick on May 10, 2017 20:24:08 GMT
You make some good points and I agree with many of them, OP. However, my biggest gripe with the content outside of the main story line is it still lacks depth. The Truth and Trespass quest is an example I rely on usually when discussing this point. This particular quest requires the player to planet hop between almost every single major location as if traveling is part of the quest's plot (which it isn't). It then ends with a relatively anti-climatic showdown in a cave... a cave that is a pass-through or landing point for a couple other quests in the game. This proves a couple things to me - 1) adding travel is a crutch for putting depth to the story and 2) they don't have enough interesting locations to utilize. It's those kind of writing decisions that distract from the overall product. All that said, I do think the main story plot and many of the Allies & Relationship quests are well done. But, at beast, I think this game is a C+ to B- in the quest development/writing department. It's just average. Yeah out of all the 'Allies and Relationship' quests that one probably bugged me the most, I think though mine had more to do with timing because, well for me, it was a rather fascinating mystery and kind of a fun little who dun it conspiracy along the lines of...well some of the stuff I am interested in IRL and in game like Ryder Family Secrets. But honestly I kind of agree. Again, I admire the structure and the way they set up the side quests in the game, I think this is something games should try and emulate. It was almost like Dragon Age Origins or Witcher 3 in terms of quaity and structure and I want BioWare to improve on this aspect in the future, because now that they have figured out a strong basic structure to do side quests and open world in general, all that is left to do is improve on it... But as far as the quality is concerned I agree. MEAs side quests (again the Heleus Assignments and the Allies and Relationships) I would rate, if I were to rate them, anywhere between tier 5 and tier 1. Wheras DA I was anywhere between Tier 4 and Tier 2. But, MEA has a lot of Tier 2 quests too, more then DA I where I would only rate like 2 that highly. I'm pretty pleased with the structure myself, as well. I hope it's something they utilize but with more tweaks in the future. For example, I'd be OK if they removed the "Tasks" bar and most of those quests. I had about 10 sitting in there after I beat the game and didn't feel any urge to complete them. This would allow them to spend more time developing the major categories (like Heleus Assignments and Allies & Relationships). In a way, less would become more. If it's a quest that isn't worth making conversation cinematics for then it makes me wonder why it's in the game. Clearly, it wasn't worth the effort of an Allies or main story quest.
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Post by wildhog on May 10, 2017 20:32:42 GMT
Fair enough, but personally i was talking about the consequences inside the sidequests. MEA doen't really gives u any choice in the sidequests besides choosing if u will do them or not. The Witcher 3 does have different outcomes in most of them. That's just...not true...granted I suppose most of the side quests don't have choices in the middle of them which then effect the ending of that specific side quest like some of the W 3 quest chains do, but pretty much all of them have choices somewhere, that can have huge impacts on the endings of those individual quests. Look at Sleeping Dragons for instance. Mmm i dont remember any sidequest with different outcomes , maybe because i was sleeping due to boredom in all of them . Maybe what i really ment is that when u finish them you feel like "meh" because of the hyper mega awful writing wichever the outcome there is. One example i remember now is the IA from the ice planet, so bad, so cringe... But if you enjoyed them good for you, i wish i could have enjoyed the game too.
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2017 20:35:01 GMT
That's just...not true...granted I suppose most of the side quests don't have choices in the middle of them which then effect the ending of that specific side quest like some of the W 3 quest chains do, but pretty much all of them have choices somewhere, that can have huge impacts on the endings of those individual quests. Look at Sleeping Dragons for instance. Mmm i dont remember any sidequest with different outcomes , maybe because i was sleeping due to boredom in all of them . Maybe what i really ment is that when u finish them you feel like "meh" because of the hyper mega awful writing wichever the outcome there is. One example i remember now is the IA from the ice planet, so bad, so cringe... But if you enjoyed them good for you, i wish i could have enjoyed the game too. IA?
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