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Post by brandoftime on May 12, 2017 13:15:08 GMT
What a single article with weak sources and even weaker conclusions can lead to huh? A(n almost) 40+ page topic and now a new topic to point blame on something we don't even know for sure yet. People are so goddamn dramatic these days. It's because we are left to wonder, not knowing any sales figures, if the game failed or not. If the company would just make a statement one way or another, the FUD would clear up, but now we have nothing to go on but the cryptic earnings report (7 pages of it in banker-ese) and random google searches trying to find some kind of idea if it succeeded enough to be continued. I bet if we knew it met or exceeded forecasts, we could laugh off the idea of the hiatus, but now . . . Hitman's studio was cut off by Squeenix for under performing, so the concern is valid. I think a short brief official statement from Ea or Bioware, given all the 2 months of drama, might not be a bad idea. They are very spare on communication, which hasn't helped.
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Post by blueasari on May 12, 2017 13:15:37 GMT
You're generalizing too... thinking that hammering on people automatically causes them to rise above it all... and that people who can't just shouldn't be in the industry. No I'm not, show me where I said that? You said all creative people crumble under pressure, which is not true and generalising. All I said is if the people in question can not handle a select few of disgruntled fans opinions, which may be over the top and crazy at times, which in turn affects there so called creativity and enthusiasm then they should not be on the project in question. This is what they get paid for, I'm sure there would be people lining up with loads of enthusiasm and passion for an opportunity to work on Mass Effect. You are essentially trying to make excuses for their mistakes, while laying off the blame on fans because they can't be bothered to their job properly.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 13:20:41 GMT
The reality is that some fans did intentionally try to kill this franchise. They tried intentionally to get certain individuals in the bioware company fired and they launched a vindictive campaign against Andromeda and the company long before it was even released. As a result, the fam base was primed to be overtly critical of it and the employees of the company probably found it hard to come up with the enthusiasm that such a creative endeavor requires.If they have no enthusiasm,no creativity and are not up to the task (which seems to be true) then they should have never been on the project to start with. All I keep hearing is excuses for a game that was buggy, glitched and should never have been released like it was. But hey keep blaming the fans for their obvious mistakes. ... In this response to my previous post. I'm talking about creative people who have their creative enthusiasm sucked out of them and you're implying that they're just not creative to start with. Both are generalizations regarding those people since neither of us actually knows any of them on that personal level. I'm not making excuses for their mistakes... I'm stating a trend in how fans are able to complain about products due to the internet and how that can affect a company and diminish it's performance overall... as a contributing factor. The "fans/haters" have some responsibility... you're trying to make excuses for their "mistakes." If future games get cancelled and companies go under and there are fewer and fewer games on the market to buy... those fan/haters are getting exactly what they deserve.
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Post by blueasari on May 12, 2017 13:25:06 GMT
There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. This is not about domestic violence, you are going off track here, we are talking about creativity and enthusiasm in the work place.
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Post by blueasari on May 12, 2017 13:25:53 GMT
We are not going to agree, no point continuing. Peace.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 13:36:32 GMT
What a single article with weak sources and even weaker conclusions can lead to huh? A(n almost) 40+ page topic and now a new topic to point blame on something we don't even know for sure yet. People are so goddamn dramatic these days. It's because we are left to wonder, not knowing any sales figures, if the game failed or not. If the company would just make a statement one way or another, the FUD would clear up, but now we have nothing to go on but the cryptic earnings report (7 pages of it in banker-ese) and random google searches trying to find some kind of idea if it succeeded enough to be continued. I bet if we knew it met or exceeded forecasts, we could laugh off the idea of the hiatus, but now . . . Hitman's studio was cut off by Squeenix for under performing, so the concern is valid. I think a short brief official statement from Ea or Bioware, given all the 2 months of drama, might not be a bad idea. They are very spare on communication, which hasn't helped. I can't really agree with this sentiment. I've frequently seen folks on the forums take statements from the devs and call them cover-ups, spins, and lies. People generally believe what they want to believe. I totally understand... after witnessing that... why Bioware pretty much stays quiet. They say this in the Kotaku article... That doesn’t mean there will never be another Mass Effect game, of course. It’s unlikely that BioWare will kill the popular sci-fi franchise. Earlier this week on an earnings call, Electronic Arts CEO Andrew Wilson told investors that the publisher is “very happy with how BioWare is doing, how BioWare is treating Mass Effect. And our expectations for Mass Effect are still strong for the future and the franchise overall.”kotaku.com/sources-bioware-montreal-downsized-mass-effect-put-on-1795100285... and incredibly the general sentiment is that EA hates Mass Effect and is going to cancel it.
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Post by decafhigh on May 12, 2017 13:41:19 GMT
Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. Seriously? You really went there? BW having to deal with angry fans and internet backlash for crappy endings (ME3) and a mediocre game launch (MEA) are comparable to domestic violence? We are really going to make that comparison? Really? :srs:
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 13:42:21 GMT
There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. This is not about domestic violence, you are going off track here, we are talking about creativity and enthusiasm in the work place. This is about the psychological effects on people who are badgered over a number of years about anything. People response as people... your trying to brush it off by compartmentalizing it changes nothing.
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Post by Fredward on May 12, 2017 13:46:14 GMT
Gotta say, the poll result restores some of my faith in humanity.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 13:48:06 GMT
You're generalizing too... thinking that hammering on people automatically causes them to rise above it all... and that people who can't just shouldn't be in the industry. There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. And that is why I wish there was some way to reach out with the "You did good. Really loved the game" message. I am glad the game was made & released, as it's been four years since anything at all was released in this genre of games, and I did not like the last game that much. But Andromeda, I thought was great. I am happy that they tried new things.
It does make me sad that people manage to pour so much efforts into what they disliked, and that it gains traction because it's funny and fans the flames of even the smallest irritant others experience till it becomes a burning issue all of a sudden.
Even if I knew how to make all this social media stuff things, it won't be funny, it will just be... boring, because, oh, look, someone liked the game. Big deal. And at worst, it will net the same negative reaction the developers are getting, only directed vs fellow poster.
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Post by brandoftime on May 12, 2017 14:00:28 GMT
You're generalizing too... thinking that hammering on people automatically causes them to rise above it all... and that people who can't just shouldn't be in the industry. There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. And that is why I wish there was some way to reach out with the "You did good. Really loved the game" message. I am glad the game was made & released, as it's been four years since anything at all was released in this genre of games, and I did not like the last game that much. But Andromeda, I thought was great. I am happy that they tried new things.
It does make me sad that people manage to pour so much efforts into what they disliked, and that it gains traction because it's funny and fans the flames of even the smallest irritant others experience till it becomes a burning issue all of a sudden.
Even if I knew how to make all this social media stuff things, it won't be funny, it will just be... boring, because, oh, look, someone liked the game. Big deal. And at worst, it will net the same negative reaction the developers are getting, only directed vs fellow poster.
Yeah, there doesn't seem to be many channels for thanks to get through. I hoped the money through sales figures would at least send that message, but instead there's this ongoing question about how well MEA sold at all. No one can tell if it truly flopped. And then the apparent disbanding of the team that seems like a pink slip situation in the works. aka punishment. So even if they knew we all loved the game, if that's really what happened in the company they won't care. I wish for all of us and them it was better than that.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:03:05 GMT
And that is why I wish there was some way to reach out with the "You did good. Really loved the game" message. I am glad the game was made & released, as it's been four years since anything at all was released in this genre of games, and I did not like the last game that much. But Andromeda, I thought was great. I am happy that they tried new things.
It does make me sad that people manage to pour so much efforts into what they disliked, and that it gains traction because it's funny and fans the flames of even the smallest irritant others experience till it becomes a burning issue all of a sudden.
Even if I knew how to make all this social media stuff things, it won't be funny, it will just be... boring, because, oh, look, someone liked the game. Big deal. And at worst, it will net the same negative reaction the developers are getting, only directed vs fellow poster.
Yeah, there doesn't seem to be many channels for thanks to get through. I hoped the money through sales figures would at least send that message, but instead there's this ongoing question about how well MEA sold at all. No one can tell if it truly flopped. And then the apparent disbanding of the team that seems like a pink slip situation in the works. aka punishment. So even if they knew we all loved the game, if that's really what happened in the company they won't care. I wish for all of us and them it was better than that. Exactly. I am just at a loss of what to do in this culture when you are not a combatitive hater. Plenty are out there to voice it for you even if you are a lurker, or barely use Internet. You are guaranteed to have any minor neatpick represented by someone somewhere and amplified. But major likes? Who lobbies and speaks for us?
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Post by brandoftime on May 12, 2017 14:05:32 GMT
We'd have to pay a lot to fly over to the studio and hang out by the door with posters, thanking them (we'd probably get arrested)
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 14:06:31 GMT
Yeah, there doesn't seem to be many channels for thanks to get through. I hoped the money through sales figures would at least send that message, but instead there's this ongoing question about how well MEA sold at all. No one can tell if it truly flopped. And then the apparent disbanding of the team that seems like a pink slip situation in the works. aka punishment. So even if they knew we all loved the game, if that's really what happened in the company they won't care. I wish for all of us and them it was better than that. Exactly. I am just at a loss of what to do in this culture when you are not a combatitive hater. Plenty are out there to voice it for you even if you are a lurker, or barely use Internet. You are guaranteed to have any minor neatpick represented by someone somewhere and amplified. But major likes? Who lobbies and speaks for us? Truly the thing that matters is dollars. If you support something, buy it. I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. It's no secret to Bioware or any other company that the internet is a sea of negativity, so don't sweat it. If enough people want something they'll continue to make it.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:16:49 GMT
Exactly. I am just at a loss of what to do in this culture when you are not a combatitive hater. Plenty are out there to voice it for you even if you are a lurker, or barely use Internet. You are guaranteed to have any minor neatpick represented by someone somewhere and amplified. But major likes? Who lobbies and speaks for us? Truly the thing that matters is dollars. If you support something, buy it. I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. It's no secret to Bioware or any other company that the internet is a sea of negativity, so don't sweat it. If enough people want something they'll continue to make it. Yes... but will they be able to make it as well as they perhaps could have if they, as people, weren't being inundated with so much hatred for their creative efforts? I don't think so... the price for this internet hate trend in this industry is psychological. Flynn stated once that the ME3 ending debacle drove some Bioware employees into councilling. BSN Prime was shut down with Bioware stating one reason as that their employees were unwilling to visit the site anymore. People have left Bioware in droves and I don't see a flood of the best and brightest trying to get hired on with them... who would really want to work on a project that garners so much hatred based on a long-ago mistake?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:19:51 GMT
Exactly. I am just at a loss of what to do in this culture when you are not a combatitive hater. Plenty are out there to voice it for you even if you are a lurker, or barely use Internet. You are guaranteed to have any minor neatpick represented by someone somewhere and amplified. But major likes? Who lobbies and speaks for us? Truly the thing that matters is dollars. If you support something, buy it. I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. It's no secret to Bioware or any other company that the internet is a sea of negativity, so don't sweat it. If enough people want something they'll continue to make it. I did purchase Andromeda as a preorder. I also talk to the folks who are like me about those games, hoping that I can recruit other players who would enjoy it. But I know that my tastes do not align with the tastes the majority so loudly proclaim, so I am seriously worried that my niche genre will end up being shouted out of the market.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on May 12, 2017 14:20:25 GMT
You're generalizing too... thinking that hammering on people automatically causes them to rise above it all... and that people who can't just shouldn't be in the industry. There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. Jesus Fucking Christ. You should be beaten for this post.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:21:21 GMT
Truly the thing that matters is dollars. If you support something, buy it. I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. It's no secret to Bioware or any other company that the internet is a sea of negativity, so don't sweat it. If enough people want something they'll continue to make it. Yes... but will they be able to make it as well as they perhaps could have if they, as people, weren't being inundated with so much hatred for their creative efforts? I don't think so... the price for this internet hate trend in this industry is psychological. Plus, they did held true to their ideals so far, but the wave of hatred might force them to abandon them and start churning out the truly safe stories and characters.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 14:21:41 GMT
Truly the thing that matters is dollars. If you support something, buy it. I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. It's no secret to Bioware or any other company that the internet is a sea of negativity, so don't sweat it. If enough people want something they'll continue to make it. I did purchase Andromeda as a preorder. I also talk to the folks who are like me about those games, hoping that I can recruit other players who would enjoy it. But I know that my tastes do not align with the tastes the majority so loudly proclaim, so I am seriously worried that my niche genre will end up being shouted out of the market. Well if it helps all the polls I've seen on this forum indicate that many more folks like the game than those that don't.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:35:39 GMT
You're generalizing too... thinking that hammering on people automatically causes them to rise above it all... and that people who can't just shouldn't be in the industry. There's enough social stats on how people who are being battered respond to support what I'm saying. Children who get beaten by their parents don't generally rise above it. Wives who get beaten by their husbands generally carry emotional scars and most have great difficulty rising above it if/when they do leave the marriage. Online badgering of company employees that goes on for years and starts long before any work is even released falls into the same category. Jesus Fucking Christ. You should be beaten for this post. ... and I am... and it just fortifies my point. Online... people just dog pile on the negative and hate. It's a vicious circle that leads to a downward spiral. I don't know how people expect Bioware to be improved by dogpiling the hate one them. It makes it difficult for them to keep staff. It makes it more difficult for them to hire talented new staff. It makes it difficult for them to maintain a favorable relationship with their parent company (i.e. to perhaps get deadlines extended so their games release in a more finished state). It's already putting negative expectations on the new IP even. ME:A hardly had a snowball's chance in hell of being the game it could have been and part of the responsibility for that has to rest with specific fans who undertook a long evidenced campaign of hate against the company and specific employees within the company. They expect that they'll get better games out of it... they won't... They know who they are... and they are getting exactly what they deserve.
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Post by armass81 on May 12, 2017 14:39:57 GMT
This whole thing again reminded me of a quote i heard somewhere, sometime ago.
I dont remember who said it or if its even an exact quote, but i think it went like this: "People like to celebrate success, but more than anything, they love to see someone huge and succesful fail, so badly that it destroys them. And some of them will take great and perverse pleasure of it."
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:42:46 GMT
We'd have to pay a lot to fly over to the studio and hang out by the door with posters, thanking them (we'd probably get arrested) Yeah, flying across Canada is really expensive. I've been to Edmonton building though on an unrelated conference, and it is literally devoid of fans with posters of "We you, BioWARE!!!" The only way I knew they were still there (save for the address) was the separate tab for them in the gym, lol.
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Post by blueasari on May 12, 2017 14:43:04 GMT
Someone once said, its not exact quote, but i think theyr were right about this: "People like to celebrate success, but more than anything, they love to see someone huge and succesful fail, so badly that it crumbles them. And some of them will take great pleasure of it." People like to see others come back from the gutter and triumph as well, which is what the majority of fans wanted with Andromeda and any future instalments, it goes both ways.
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Post by decafhigh on May 12, 2017 14:46:36 GMT
... and I am... and it just fortifies my point. /sigh No it really doesn't. Yes online bullying is a thing and is a real problem among teens and kids that use too much social media. You (I am assuming) and BW are adults, BW in particular are adults with careers oriented around technology and online media sources. They are not being "traumatized" by internet memes and meanies on their forums. If they are they need serious professional psychiatric help for their various mental health issues. Child abuse and domestic violence are real horrific crimes that real people have to deal with. Comparing that to being upset by "ugly Sara" memes or people not liking the ending to your video game that just made you millions of dollars is just ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:51:21 GMT
... and I am... and it just fortifies my point. /sigh No it really doesn't. Yes online bullying is a thing and is a real problem among teens and kids that use too much social media. You (I am assuming) and BW are adults, BW in particular are adults with careers oriented around technology and online media sources. They are not being "traumatized" by internet memes and meanies on their forums. If they are they need serious professional psychiatric help for their various mental health issues. Child abuse and domestic violence are real horrific crimes that real people have to deal with. Comparing that to being upset by "ugly Sara" memes or people not liking the ending to your video game that just made you millions of dollars is just ridiculous. How about angry fans ferreting out the programmer's family's personal phone numbers and sending them the threats over the class balance changes? This monstrosity happened with SWTOR team and it grew out of the whole internet hysteria. I don't think that @upupawayredux is far from truth when s/he says that a vendetta campaign against Walters does exist.
In the grand scheme of things, what happens to the game is not that big of a deal, but the idol worshiping and its dark side of ostracism directed at the figureheads is not a new phenomenon, but given an unpleasant upgrade by the new technology.
Businesses & politicians are used to scandals that topple mighty organizations, now it is game industry as well.
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