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Post by treoir on May 21, 2017 21:57:45 GMT
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 22:03:48 GMT
...why wouldn't i? I mean.the Angarra are my second favorite race introduced in me...and again looks are just a part of a character be it the individual or a group...the smallest and most unimportant part. I was thinking more of alien enemies. Wouldn't have hurt to have some wow effect when encountering aliens. Maybe they can still do it (with the Jaardan for example), but so far this is lacking in the game. This is not one of the "hate" themes, but a valid criticism after encountering a Rachni queen, the Thorian and Sovereign in ME1. i get its not hate...and i get it Would be nice to have different effects...but i still do not view this criticism as being 'valid' and i want to. I want to understand but there is just so much more to characters then appearance. Though as a reference Kett with different abilities would be nice. But that does not fall under appearance.
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Post by alanc9 on May 21, 2017 22:12:09 GMT
I don't really subscribe to all the moaning about normal looking aliens and environments to be honest. We're landing on planets all within the life zone of their star so they're all going to have degrees of gravity and temperature that are relatable, and why would landscapes be different in a galaxy other than our own just because it's a long way away? There's always going to be rocks, there's always going to be a sky, (there's always a lighthouse ). Physics is physics, and the process by which these planets form and change is presumably largely the same wherever you are in the universe. No planet in the MW would be out of place in Andromeda, and vice versa. Same goes for the aliens. I'm sure we'll meet more outlandishly designed entities if the series progresses but Reorte is exactly right, weird for the sake of weird must be avoided. Then why bother with science fiction sectting to begin with? If the intent is to recreate the environments of earth in a superficially different but broadly identical manner, than there is no need to spread the game out across multiple planets and multiple star systems; Voeld, Kadarda, Eos, Eladeen and Havarl could all be different locations on the same planet, with little adjustment. To limit yourself to the presumtions listend in the above post is detrimental to the creative value of your universe. I'm not quite clear where you're going with this. What sort of physical environment counts as different enough? A rock is a rock anywhere, and while you can have various mixes of gases making up the atmosphere, or even no atmosphere, in the end it's a pretty simple question: can we breathe here or not?
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Post by traks on May 21, 2017 22:12:33 GMT
I was thinking more of alien enemies. Wouldn't have hurt to have some wow effect when encountering aliens. Maybe they can still do it (with the Jaardan for example), but so far this is lacking in the game. This is not one of the "hate" themes, but a valid criticism after encountering a Rachni queen, the Thorian and Sovereign in ME1. i get its not hate...and i get it Would be nice to have different effects...but i still do not view this criticism as being 'valid' and i want to. I want to understand but there is just so much more to characters then appearance. Though as a reference Kett with different abilities would be nice. But that does not fall under appearance. The Kett are fine for me as the main enemy, because in a shooter (even if it is a RPG) you need someone to shoot back. But what I would like to have in future content are sequences out of the horror-survival segment. Encountering something unexpected - like the Rachni in ME1. That level on Noveria was soooo good. In a new Galaxy - as a pathfinder - wouldn't it be cool if we ran into a situation with a real WTF-component and then barely making it out alive? The wildlife in MEA can't compensate for that IMO (especially because Fiends are basically upgraded Brutes).
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 22:15:07 GMT
i get its not hate...and i get it Would be nice to have different effects...but i still do not view this criticism as being 'valid' and i want to. I want to understand but there is just so much more to characters then appearance. Though as a reference Kett with different abilities would be nice. But that does not fall under appearance. The Kett are fine for me as the main enemy, because in a shooter (even if it is a RPG) you need someone to shoot back. But what I would like to have in future content are sequences out of the horror-survival segment. Encountering something unexpected - like the Rachni in ME1. That level on Noveria was soooo good. In a new Galaxy - as a pathfinder - wouldn't it be cool if we ran into a situation with a real WTF-component and then barely making it out alive? The wildlife in MEA can't compensate for that IMO (especially because Fiends are basically upgraded Brutes). not a fan of survival horror but i suspect the quarian arc might fill this niche.
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Daft Arbiter
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR
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Post by Daft Arbiter on May 21, 2017 22:28:30 GMT
i get its not hate...and i get it Would be nice to have different effects...but i still do not view this criticism as being 'valid' and i want to. I want to understand but there is just so much more to characters then appearance. Though as a reference Kett with different abilities would be nice. But that does not fall under appearance. The Kett are fine for me as the main enemy, because in a shooter (even if it is a RPG) you need someone to shoot back. But what I would like to have in future content are sequences out of the horror-survival segment. Encountering something unexpected - like the Rachni in ME1. That level on Noveria was soooo good. In a new Galaxy - as a pathfinder - wouldn't it be cool if we ran into a situation with a real WTF-component and then barely making it out alive? The wildlife in MEA can't compensate for that IMO (especially because Fiends are basically upgraded Brutes). The downside of the Noveria mission: Port Hanshan looks like a dilapidated shopping mall from the 1980's. The upside of the Noveria mission: literally everything else. Especially the Rachni.
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 22:35:01 GMT
...i didn't really like noveria too much.
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Post by RoboticWater on May 21, 2017 22:35:41 GMT
no. The Kett would not have improved one iota if they had b six legs, or were gaseous, or were naked. I prefer content of character and not appearance. Setting aside the fact that the content of the Kett is a weak retread of the Collectors and some other generic bug-eyed monster tropes, why don't you think they would improve an iota? If you prefer content of character to appearance, then than means that appearance does matter to you at least a little, and if appearance matters to you at least a little, then it stands to reason that you would like the game a little more if their appearance was a little more interesting. For me, I would like the game a lot more, because I like it when visual media actually leverage their inherent qualities and show me something creative. Not doing so is a waste and a let-down. There's also the argument you sidestepped entirely: making the Kett more exotic is practically bound to make their characters more interesting as a result. A race of Kett without eyes would be a more interesting culture to explore, if only slightly, because that means their culture is unique. I also have to question what kind of RPG you play if you genuinely believe that the most recent BioWare games are some of the best RPG ever made. BioWare are the epitome of appearance over character content. Ever since KotOR, people went to BioWare for the production value, not the literary genius. If you want deep characters, you go to Obsidian or Black Isle. Hell, even CDPR have BioWare outmatched these days. Weird with thought being put into it to make it appear plausible is fine - it's great in fact, and is what really good science fiction does. It's a world away from being weird for the sake of it and making it look ridiculous "because it's cool". My worry is that they'll settle for the latter if they do go down the different route, which I think I'd find harder to swallow than playing it safe. Do something random without thought then claim "people don't accept weird aliens", because that's easier than accepting that you haven't bothered building up the whole picture in which those weird aliens exist. Always easier to blame the concept than admit that your implementation of it didn't stand up. I agree, but I've said this a lot in regards to BioWare: they seem perfectly willing to stomp over lore and reason for just about any addition they feel is necessary. If BioWare is content adding swords and hammers on the rule of cool, why not exotic-looking aliens? I get the slippery slope argument, but we're already on the slip n' slide, so we might as well have fun. My other justification is that I think any half-decent writer would rise to the challenge if given an interesting premise to work with. Just about every premise starts out as "wouldn't it be cool if...," and the cooler the idea, the more excited the writer is to keep writing about it. That's how it works for me at least. Obviously, there's a point where ideas become impossible given a framework, but there's a vast continuum between that point and where we are now.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 22:36:13 GMT
I'm not quite clear where you're going with this. What sort of physical environment counts as different enough? A rock is a rock anywhere, and while you can have various mixes of gases making up the atmosphere, or even no atmosphere, in the end it's a pretty simple question: can we breathe here or not? Honestly, Those kind of considerations should be directed to the designers. Me personally, I would love to see some enviroments that are aestheticly very different from earth. As said many of the worlds we visit in Andromeda are in my opinion too similar to those of earth. Right now we got two desert planets, one ice planet and one jungle planet to explore, there has to be more creativity at Bioware thant to just fall back onto the classical planetery archetypes.
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Post by zaeedisking on May 21, 2017 22:50:48 GMT
...i didn't really like noveria too much. Shocking.
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 22:53:57 GMT
no. The Kett would not have improved one iota if they had b six legs, or were gaseous, or were naked. I prefer content of character and not appearance. Setting aside the fact that the content of the Kett is a weak retread of the Collectors and some other generic bug-eyed monster tropes, why don't you think they would improve an iota? If you prefer content of character to appearance, then than means that appearance does matter to you at least a little, and if appearance matters to you at least a little, then it stands to reason that you would like the game a little more if their appearance was a little more interesting. For me, I would like the game a lot more, because I like it when visual media actually leverage their inherent qualities and show me something creative. Not doing so is a waste and a let-down. There's also the argument you sidestepped entirely: making the Kett more exotic is practically bound to make their characters more interesting as a result. A race of Kett without eyes would be a more interesting culture to explore, if only slightly, because that means their culture is unique. I also have to question what kind of RPG you play if you genuinely believe that the most recent BioWare games are some of the best RPG ever made. BioWare are the epitome of appearance over character content. Ever since KotOR, people went to BioWare for the production value, not the literary genius. If you want deep characters, you go to Obsidian or Black Isle. Hell, even CDPR have BioWare outmatched these days. Weird with thought being put into it to make it appear plausible is fine - it's great in fact, and is what really good science fiction does. It's a world away from being weird for the sake of it and making it look ridiculous "because it's cool". My worry is that they'll settle for the latter if they do go down the different route, which I think I'd find harder to swallow than playing it safe. Do something random without thought then claim "people don't accept weird aliens", because that's easier than accepting that you haven't bothered building up the whole picture in which those weird aliens exist. Always easier to blame the concept than admit that your implementation of it didn't stand up. I agree, but I've said this a lot in regards to BioWare: they seem perfectly willing to stomp over lore and reason for just about any addition they feel is necessary. If BioWare is content adding swords and hammers on the rule of cool, why not exotic-looking aliens? I get the slippery slope argument, but we're already on the slip n' slide, so we might as well have fun. My other justification is that I think any half-decent writer would rise to the challenge if given an interesting premise to work with. Just about every premise starts out as "wouldn't it be cool if...," and the cooler the idea, the more excited the writer is to keep writing about it. That's how it works for me at least. Obviously, there's a point where ideas become impossible given a framework, but there's a vast continuum between that point and where we are now. i disagree. And yes appearance matters a little...but the weaknesses in the kett aren't down to their appearance. So changing their appearance won't really help. I mean sure theoretically maybe it could... As far as that argument i ignored...i didn't...but i have nothing to contribute on it. And i haven't played obsidian or black isle. But I've played four of the five major RPGs released this generation. Fallout 4, Witcher 3, and Dai...and mea is the second best.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 23:03:14 GMT
I would have liked to have been the first to Andromeda.It seems every planet we set down on there is already a base/camp or small city already built.
So for me it took away the exploration experience.
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Post by Reorte on May 22, 2017 0:26:38 GMT
I agree, but I've said this a lot in regards to BioWare: they seem perfectly willing to stomp over lore and reason for just about any addition they feel is necessary. If BioWare is content adding swords and hammers on the rule of cool, why not exotic-looking aliens? I get the slippery slope argument, but we're already on the slip n' slide, so we might as well have fun. My other justification is that I think any half-decent writer would rise to the challenge if given an interesting premise to work with. Just about every premise starts out as "wouldn't it be cool if...," and the cooler the idea, the more excited the writer is to keep writing about it. That's how it works for me at least. Obviously, there's a point where ideas become impossible given a framework, but there's a vast continuum between that point and where we are now. I guess it's down to personal preference but rule of cool usually just turns into rule of bloody stupid for me. A few things I can overlook because they're so common (hearing spaceships in space for example), but my usual reaction isn't "cool!" but "oh dear." On the premise bit, it all needs to be worked out together to gel IMO. Having a nice idea then trying to shoehorn it in to something sensible will show the cracks sooner. Anything fictional will show the cracks if pushed hard enough of course, which unfortunately gets taken by some to mean "why even bother trying?" The best writers and designers will work at all aspects, even though there has to be some initial germ of an idea.
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Post by Reorte on May 22, 2017 0:28:26 GMT
I would have liked to have been the first to Andromeda.It seems every planet we set down on there is already a base/camp or small city already built. So for me it took away the exploration experience. I guess it was to set up stuff to do, but yes. Makes you wonder what the pathfinders were actually for. Coming along and fixing what other people have already found doesn't fit the title.
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Post by Furisco on May 22, 2017 1:08:46 GMT
that was not in the parameters of the original question. The original question talked about changing b their b looks only. And just changing their looks would b not have made the kett anymore or less interesting. They would still be just slightly.more interesting then the Reapers.Don't disrespect Sovereign like that.
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Post by RoboticWater on May 22, 2017 1:20:46 GMT
i disagree. And yes appearance matters a little...but the weaknesses in the kett aren't down to their appearance. So changing their appearance won't really help. I mean sure theoretically maybe it could... As far as that argument i ignored...i didn't...but i have nothing to contribute on it. But the arguments are connected. Looking unique is, of course, its own benefit; the Kett look like fairly generic "videogame enemies," so something new would certainly be more welcome. However, the process of making the Kett more visually unique is where the real character content comes in. By making the Kett more relatable, BioWare have denied themselves a wealth of concepts and themes that come from science fiction thought experiments. The Kett are boring because they're your average run-of-the mill space Nazis: militaristic, ideological, Aryan race-loving bug-eyed monsters. There's just not much else about them. That's where the looks come in. What if the Kett had no eyes? What does that mean for their culture? How does that change communication? What does that mean for them as enemies? And that's just a simple biological change. What if the Kett were trans-dimensional beings? What does that mean? What kind of technology would they make? Why exist in our dimension? BioWare could have made any alterations, eyes to trans-dimensionality and created a more unique race because of it. Visually, it'd be a neat thing to do, but any visual feature aught to be backed up with sufficient narrative depth. That's what I'm asking for. If you're genuinely interested in character depth then I'd recommend checking out their stuff: Planescape: Torment Enhanced Edition, Fallout: New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, KotOR II. These are games with their fair share of jank and very little in the way of visual spectacle, but in terms of literary merit, they're the best in the genre.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 22, 2017 3:48:49 GMT
Don't disrespect Sovereign like that. If it means anything, ME2 and 3 did that for us.
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